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from Webel Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 20:40 (Agree/Disagree?) You make some very valid points in this article and I also agree with a lot of what you say. However, these issues of mass immigration aren't isolated only to the UK - it's on a global scale. In the last three years I have lived in several countries and I hear the same story everywhere I go - the places and races change but they all have the same complaint: why don't they go back to "their" country. The immigrants in all the countries I've been to have more children get welfare and are treated better than the citizens born and bred there. In Spain they complain about the Morrocans, in Venezuela they complain about the Colombian refugees, in France they moan about the Algerians and in the UK they complain because they have been swamped with just about everything under the sun! the empire has returned...to the UK! Hey guys I'm half British and England will always be in my heart but I left and married an American and I now live in the USA where they complain about the Mexicans or "Beaners" as they call them, but the truth is that America is the land of the immigrant and NOBODY but the American Indians can rightfully lay claim to this land. Some of you Americans will get mad when you hear me say that but that's the truth - you are ALL decendants of immigrants whether it be Swedish, Irish, English, Danish, German, Scottish, African, Cuban, Italian, Puerto Rican shall I go on??? I am an immigrant too. I live in California and I speak both English and Spanish! and boy do I feel at home in this great land. Hey guys come live here it's great! Be a British Immigrant you are just a few generation late!!! I don't agree with all of the politics the US is involved in but American people, as individuals are the coolest people I've ever met. (reply to this comment)

from exister Monday, April 05, 2004 - 15:20 (Agree/Disagree?) "Britain is by no stretch of anyones imagination a Muslim country or will ever be one" First, you should have used "nor" instead of "or." Second, I wouldn't bet on it. Do the math. As long as they keep squirting out devoted little muslim babies while you run your mouth on the Internet, Britain is well on its way to becoming a Muslim country. The trend I see in most developed countries is this. Minorities make more babies while Caucasians put off childbearing for an education. In a few generations there will be a more educated mostly white minority running a country that is made up primarily of a non-white working class. The question is, how long will the educated majority rule? Let's see if history has any parallels. Does South Africa ring a bell? BTW, I hear South Africa is a lovely place to contract HIV via anal raping while touring the country side looking for wildlife. (reply to this comment)

From Dani Monday, April 05, 2004, 16:07 (Agree/Disagree?) I disagree with you. There will be a bigger difference between the rich and poor, regardless of race. HIV is something that doesn’t discriminate look at the rates of infection in Zurich. . (reply to this comment)

From exister Monday, April 05, 2004, 17:17 (Agree/Disagree?) What a brilliant way to counter my reckless generalizations with politically correct generalizations. I can see that we are really making progress here.(reply to this comment)

From Dani Monday, April 05, 2004, 17:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Look at the history of American cities such as Chicago. The sociological term for it to coined the "Strain Effect". (reply to this comment)

From exister Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 12:04 (Agree/Disagree?) 'The sociological term for it to coined the "Strain Effect".' Your incoherent babble has left me speechless. Bravo! Are you even a native English speaker? (reply to this comment)

from Alf Monday, April 05, 2004 - 14:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Due to the quality of life in the UK steadily worsening, I'm jumping ship and migrating. Let the dead bury the dead. (reply to this comment)

From The Friendly Grammar Nazi Monday, April 05, 2004, 15:04 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually, you'll be emigrating. Migrating is what geese do. Feel free to immigrate to the US. With your poor command of the English language, you'll fit right in!(reply to this comment)

From Dani Monday, April 05, 2004, 16:01 (Agree/Disagree?) Don't confuse English wit with bad grammar. (reply to this comment)

From . Monday, April 05, 2004, 20:01 (Agree/Disagree?) Rather, you confuse an Englishman obsessed with his “wittiness” as witty. I as well tire of the “Alf support group”. surely a man of such endowment would feel depreciated, even demeaned by such intensive buttressing of his witty remarks. I wonder if Alf will take the support group with him on his “migration”. They could all fly in “L” formation. (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 17:47 (Agree/Disagree?) I just heard the funniest commentary about proper grammar on NPR. “People judge you on the way you speak. If you use poor grammar, it reflects poorly on you, and you appear ignorant.” I suppose that may be harsh, yet I agree that it is the way it is. “Man looketh on the outward appearance.” We judge and form opinions about others based on what they do, say and write. Just as an accent can reveal a lot about a person’s background, in the black and white type world of the internet, the way someone writes reveals a lot about the writer’s education and intelligence. I will admit that I will more readily dismiss or more readily consider a writer’s opinion based on whether that opinion is presented in a clear, logical and grammatically correct manner. At the basest level, it reveals the thoughtfulness and deliberateness of the writer. There is more than enough strong opinion on this website to sift through. When such opinion is backed up with clarity, conciseness and proper grammar, then I can’t help but lend a little more credence to the content. Yes, content is most important. Yet, sloppy writing style accentuates an uniformed opinion like bad breath compounds a bad date with poor manners. The Family is a group sorely lacking in education, proper grammar usage, concise writing style, spelling skills, thoughtfulness and intelligence. We are speaking of an organization which expounds such beliefs to its children as “when you think, think, think, you sink, sink, sink because you stink, stink, stink”, “it’s not yours to question why, it’s only yours to do or die” and whose entire grammar curricula at one time for thousands of children which it did not permit to attend school was composed of the “Childcare Handbook spelling list”. Therefore, I consider education and learning to write and speak correctly a mark of overcoming the educational oppression of that cult. It also makes me smile a large Philistine smile when I see an ex-SGA outwit, out argue and out think the grammatically retarded intellects of some random, deluded current member. It makes me feel secure in knowing that the human mind is able to eventually overcome childhood deprivation and oppression. Yet, at the same time, I feel protective of those, who like me, have some educational disadvantages due to their lack of education. It makes me even angrier at that cult because its neglect and abuse is so far-reaching in people’s lives. One thing is for sure with regards to the issue of poor education or no education, the responsibility for it in the lives of thousands of individuals lies squarely on the shoulders of the Family and its twisted and non-existent curricula. In the area of the law of omissions, one is not responsible for rendering aid or assisting a victim, unless they caused the harm, stand in a position of responsibility to the victim or prevent others from rendering aid or assistance. Here the Family is guilty on all theories with regard to educational neglect. They caused the deprivation, they stood in a position of responsibility to the children deprived and they prevented traditional sources of education from rendering aid to the children it deprived. The Family should be sentenced to wear dunce caps whenever they go into public so people are put on notice of their ignorance and guilt. When online, their postings should be followed by a large red cone for a dunce cap. It should be their scarlett letter.(reply to this comment)

From Jules Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 19:41 (Agree/Disagree?) You make some excellent points here Nancy and I agree with you. We do judge people by what they say and do and sometimes how they say it. IMO something that makes just as much of an impression on others as correct language are simple manners. If a person we met face to face had a speech impediment, only someone with no social skills at all would draw public attention to this fact and then berate the person for their “stupidity”. If someone frequently misspells words, they are well aware of this fact already. Personally I am often much more aggressive and impolite online than in real life, so perhaps this medium simply tends towards flaming. However, while this web site is an open forum and of course we can all write what we wish, personally I also form opinions of other participants based on their manner here. IMO, it shows a level of confidence and self respect, qualities I greatly admire, to treat others with dignity and courtesy, even when opinions and sometimes values differ. Dani might be mad at me for saying this, but I am so very proud of her. When she left the Family, she could barely read. Now, a few years later, she is finishing her second year of a four year B.Sc. degree in computer science. That has taken an incredible level of determination and she has worked so hard to get to where she is now. In a group where public reading aloud was a daily event, for someone who struggled in this area life could be a nightmare. She was ridiculed and mocked constantly by her peers and it bothers me a great deal to see people doing this here. I share Joe’s passion for language (although I only know English). I love words and expressions and simply reading a well crafted novel or interesting thesis is for me one of life’s greatest pleasures. After having to endure years of only reading badly written, poorly expressed publications in the group, I still get excited by walking into a bookstore and being able to purchase any book on any topic (I know, I am a geek). The wealth of information at arms reach is exhilarating. However, I just don’t understand the need to ridicule those who are in the same boat as the rest of us, and also struggling with the many deficiencies that are the Family’s legacy to us. (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 20:38 (Agree/Disagree?) So true. How we treat a person is more a measure of what kind of person we are, than what kind of person they are. A lot of us are just learning to cut our advocacy teeth. We couldn't voice our opinions for so long that we like to err on the opposite side of caution now. Yet, I truly sense that within each of us is compassion for the disadvantaged. We can empathize because we experienced similar. We may appear ferocious and may even be when faced with a familiar bully or oppressor, like the Family, but deep down I think we care for those who have suffered, and it shows in sometimes the most minuet details. I’ve always thought that the opposite of love is not hate. It is indifference. We all are a lot of things, but very few of us are indifferent. Most of us possess strong feelings with regards to most topics which we have in common and it is evident in nearly every discussion thread here. (reply to this comment)

From Jules Thursday, April 08, 2004, 23:45 (Agree/Disagree?) I'd like to believe that this is the case, I certainly used to believe this. I am starting to agree with Wolf though that, especially with people who post frequently, you can tell a lot about people by their manner online. I have been quite stunned by the snideness and ugliness of some people I held in high regard and respected immensely. I still think that it's probably just a bad day for them and they actually are the intelligent, confident and strong people I believed them to be. Regardless, this site was supposed to be about reality. Spite and arrogance is as real as courage and decency. We are what we are and morality is not necessarily relevant to truth. When you say that "we can empathise because we experienced similar" I think there is something to that. For many of us, for some reason unless something has personally touched us, we do not seem to be able to empathise. Perhaps it's just another result of having elitist closeminded views shoved down our own throats for so long. On the other hand, as Joe often quotes "Animals are a lot like people, Mrs. Simpson. Some of them act badly because they've had a hard life, or have been mistreated...but, like people, some of them are just jerks".(reply to this comment)

From The Friendly Grammar Nazi Monday, April 05, 2004, 18:13

from Dani Monday, April 05, 2004 - 14:30 (Agree/Disagree?) Multiculturalism has become a way of life. The UK’s economical structure is heading for enormous strain due to for the high cost of living. One such backlash of this is couples having children later in life. In order of Britain to continue to providing benefits, low university costs and pensions the population has to increase. The cost of houses has been raised so high that now it almost impossible to have an education and purchase a house before the age of 30. Economies need an influx of people, whether they get along or not is a different story. To blame drugs and crime on race seems a little odd considering that great author such as Charles Dickens paint a pretty grim picture of life when the all powerful white male was in charge in the Victorian times. Opium deans and drug addiction was common place back then. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Monday, April 05, 2004, 17:57 (Agree/Disagree?) "The population has to increase"???? Are you freakin' joking?? This is typical of the narrowminded, tunnel vision exhibited by economists without giving a rats ass to the sustainability of this population increase! Every species is restricted in size by resource limitations, however, occasionally you will see that a "boom-bust" population dynamic occurs. This is when a population exponentially increases do to out-competing or somehow appropriating more resources for themselves. The initial response is a population explosion but that is always followed by a crash. This has been demonstrated time and time again in nature as well as in human populations. We as humans may have temporarily lifted many of nature's controls and are currently appropriating upwards of 40% of the worlds resources to support one species. If you guys think this can go on forever, and support the projected global population increase, you are sadly ignorant! Don't you live in Europe which has one of the highest human population densities on earth? Europe's ecosystems are notoriously degraded and malfunctioning. In fact, the ecology field began in Europe as a response to such degredation. I realize this is off the topic, but please, educate yourself before you go spouting something so ridiculous like that! (reply to this comment)

From Jerseygirl Monday, April 05, 2004, 19:28 (Agree/Disagree?) This is an excellent point joyish, something that comes up often in conversations/arguments around here. I'd be interested in what type of studies you're involved in. (not to mention any tips and advise you may have about taking exams on these topics)(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Monday, April 05, 2004, 19:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Thanks, Jersey! My research and studies concentrate on Urban Ecology, which is the study of the ways cities and their development patterns are affecting the environment. Specifically, I've been involved in a project that measures leaf litter decay rates, which are driven by fungal responses to nitrogen pollution, along an urban-rural gradient. That project is wrapping up and hopefuly I'll soon be starting a specific quantification of fungal biomass along this entire gradient. As far as exams go, all mine consist entirely of essays! My tip: study everything, know everything, and then write it all down! lol! Good Luck! What kind of classes are you taking?(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Monday, April 05, 2004, 20:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Essay tests are fun! You can pick the topics you know and use your BSing skills honed by years of OHR writing to flesh out a potentially incorrect or insignificant hypothesis.(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Monday, April 05, 2004, 20:25 (Agree/Disagree?) LOL! Oh, how I wish that were the case!!(reply to this comment)

From Dani Monday, April 05, 2004, 18:08 (Agree/Disagree?) You’re right it us who are going to have to pay for this crash. It just sucks that the baby boomers not only messed up our childhood but they have messed up our economic as well. Maybe in the State taxes our lower and people save that money for retirement, so this issue may not be relevant to there. But the above article was referring to the UK. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Monday, April 05, 2004, 19:20 (Agree/Disagree?) Why do I even bother?? Obviously my comment went way over your head!(reply to this comment)

From Dani Monday, April 05, 2004, 19:43 (Agree/Disagree?) The above article written by Taz was referring to the recent rise gun in crime in London. This has been blamed on what he calls the Yardies, whom are a Black gang. Politically the government has been blamed for the increase of ethic minorities in the UK. There is huge debate right now to issues of immigrants whom for the most part have either been black or from the Middle East. Taxes in the UK are 35% more expensive than the rest of Europe, people have to pay high taxes on everything including to privilege to watch four television channels. House prices have gone through the roof in the last five years due to upper middle class families buying two or three houses. University costs have risen and are planned to continue to rise. People here have an extremely bad attitude to immigrants. In order for the social economical structure to be maintained it needs to increase its population by 60%. Maybe in America the problem with the aging population is not an issue. But in England right now it is. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Monday, April 05, 2004, 20:09 (Agree/Disagree?) I am well aware of the population structures of the western world as well as those of the third world. The population structures of our respective countries are very similar. I can assure you we have our own issues with the growing mean (that is similar to an average) age of our population. But I question what qualifies you to make such a call for a 60% increase in population? Are you aware of the huge social and environmental consequenses of such an increase? Such an increase would tip your population structure back to that of third world countries. The young mean age, plus the percentage of the population that would then be coming into reproductive age would furthur add to the exponential population growth this world is facing. It is well known that countries with lower mean population ages have higher poverty rates, higher infant mortality rates, lower employment, higher disease, higher morbidity and mortality rates, and lower education rates among other things. For you to call for a western country to increase its population by an astonishing 60% would proportion even more of the worlds resources away from other countries and towards the west. As it is, the west uses an average 10 times more resources per capita than people in the third world. Is this fair? Should we in our western greed and endless quest for "more" continue to use up the world's resources at such an unsustainable rate? What are we to leave for future generations? Is more people, thus creating more of a demand for the finite amount of resources really beneficial in the long run? Have any of these thoughts crossed your mind? Before making such blanket statements, you might want to educate yourself on the consequences of such an increase.(reply to this comment)

From exister Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 15:39 (Agree/Disagree?) "Should we in our western greed and endless quest for 'more' continue to use up the world's resources at such an unsustainable rate?" Yes! This will then precipitate a mass extinction of most mammals, including us, which will cause the "Age of Man" to segue into the "Age of The Cockroach." :-) But seriously, there is no hope of sustainability. The sooner we use shit up the sooner we can bring an end to this farcical drama in which humanity stands in awe of its own creations. So I say, consume for all its worth. The oil will go first, then the vegetation and finally the atmosphere. Anyone unlucky enough to have failed to kill themselves with self destruction will then die a horrible death by asphyxiation, and the last thing the last human will see before dying will be a cute little roach saying, "Thanks little buddy!"(reply to this comment)

From Jules Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 13:40 (Agree/Disagree?) Didn’t we cover all this before. From what I understand the argument is not whether or not population levels are ecologically sustainable, but whether or not immigrants “destroy” a society and in this Dani is correct. The population structures for the US and Europe are not similar at all. After some conversations with her regarding this I did “educate myself” on the topic and posted the economic projections and sources almost exactly a year ago here: http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=2&Cat=44&ID=1285#13304 I am as much of a tree hugger as the next city girl but I’m not sure that ecologists should accuse any other discipline of unrealistic demands. Wasn't there a study recently released that stated that the human population is already ten times that which our ecosystem can sustain. What are we realistically supposed to do about that? I’m totally in favor of population control but obviously handing out a few condoms in Africa is not going to make much of a difference. Until we can all go off into galaxies far, far away global migration is part of balancing out the inequities. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 15:21 (Agree/Disagree?) If you go to this link, you'll find listings of reports detailing various populations. Included in these reports are population age structure diagrams. Compared to third world countries which are experiencing rapid population growth with increasing total fertility rates, the US and other developed countries population structures are indeed similar. Although the US is seeing a slowing poulation growth and decreasing total fertility rates, while most countires in europe are at 0 growth and in some cases even negative growth, by 2050, the populations structures will be even more similar. http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications Here is another website comparing population growth rates of developed countries with that of third world countries. I generally do not use websites as they are not accepted scientific references, but what the hell!! http://www.prb.org/Content/NavigationMenu/PRB/Educators/Human_Population/Population_Growth/Population_Growth.htm#mdc My problem with your sisters comment was that it reflects an attitude that is totally ignorant of the current human population crisis that the world is facing. If your puruse the links you referenced in your comment, you will see that several predictions or scenarios are presented. There is no government or scientific consensus that concludes that a 60% population increase would be beneficial. That is ludicrous! As for your suggestion of pioneering new galaxies, that would be the dumbest idea yet, if we can't even figure out how to live sustainably on our own planet without trashing it all the hell, how the hell are we supposed to do it on another? (Having said that, I do realize your comment was made in jest! At least I hope so!) As for the number of humans this planet can sustain, there are varying numbers. The issue is not how many but for how long! It's a matter of sustainability. We may very well have overshot our carrying capacity, the conclusion drawn by many ecologists, but it takes time to see the down swing, and it may continue to follow a sigmoid curve even before final colapse! And one more thing, please don't ever confuse me with a tree hugger! I detest the term as well as the mentality! There is a world of difference between environmentalism (political) and environmental science (scientific). Far too often, ignorant people lump those green peace freaks with genuine scientists! (reply to this comment)

From Jules Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 16:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Thanks for your reply. I appreciate you not insulting me or making interesting debate into a personal attack. The tree hugger reference was in jest and not meant to be offensive (in some parts of Canada that is the highest compliment that can be bestowed on someone) ;). Sometimes people here take statements as indicative of someone’s personal beliefs, get all worked up and take personal offense and, as you may agree, that can be very annoying when you are trying to have an intelligent conversation. Dani was presenting a scenario which has been projected by the UN, not her own desire to increase the population by 60%. I didn’t see anything in your links or reply that contradicted the UN’s findings, or her point at all, so here’s the argument as I understand it: *The birth rates in Europe have dropped to where the population is in decline. *There are an inordinate number of aging workers in Europe heading towards retirement and given the current socialistic structure of most governments in Europe, will expect benefits, health care and support in their old age. *In order to maintain the support ratio (workers to retirees) to maintain the current level of government support and benefits the population in the UK would need to increase by 60%. *The only way to increase the population this much is by immigration. *There is no way that this is feasible at all for many reasons, including resource availability and the attitude of many British people towards immigrants. *Other alternatives include our generation working into their 70s, considerable cutbacks in governmental support for our generation and as Dani pointed out, significant restructuring if not an abandoning of the traditional socialistic societal structure predominant in Europe. *The population structures of the US and Europe are radically different as they relate to this discussion because Europe is facing a huge economic crisis in the next 50 years. The US, although also facing challenges with the aging Baby Boomers does have a sustainable support ration, greater levels of immigration and is therefore not in such serious crisis. *Immigration, far from being the great evil that will destroy a society, is essential for maintaining some level of support for the aging population. Not much can be done in Europe now to avert this crisis, but it seems that either governmental structure and support for citizens in Europe will need to be radically altered (bringing the quality of life down) or immigration needs to be implemented and embraced by countries that have traditionally resisted any influx of “foreigners” at all, or perhaps a measure of both. From what I understood, Dani’s point was that our generation is yet again faced with holding up the dead weight of the Baby Boomers. I think that was it. Your point about the “human population crisis” globally is definitely valid, but it doesn’t make her points “ignorant”. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 20:37 (Agree/Disagree?) There's no reason to be insulting, I respect someone who can debate with me intelligently! I think the main point we disagree on is the similarity of our population structures. Dani's original post appeared very much to be her opinion, which is why I responded the way I did. Dani, I may be wrong, but your statement seems to be influenced by a lower level college economics class or something of the sort. There are similar predictions made for needed increases in the population here in the US in order to support our social security program in the very near future. Again, all done by economists with no background in ecosystem sustainability. The UN is a leader in trying to reduce overpopulation so, I highly doubt that such an increase was advocated as a solution. It may have been presented as a scenario, but I found no position taken by the UN as to support or advocate such an increase in those links. There are many economists who have since gone into the ecology field given the pressing need for significant changes in our global economy given the current rate of population increase and the dwindling supply of our currently utilized resources. Seeing how most of my sources are in scientific literature, I can think of several interesting papers co-written by prominent ecologists and economists along this topic. If your interested I'd be happy to send them to you. Some economists advocating more sustainable practices are E.F. Schumacher and Herman E. Daly. You can google them for information regarding their work. Although I can't remeber the author, one of the best quotes I've ever heard is "Economics is the ecology of man, ecology is the economics of nature". So true! (reply to this comment)

From Dani Wednesday, April 07, 2004, 08:55 (Agree/Disagree?) Increase = a quantity that is added Maintained = kept in good condition(reply to this comment)

From Dani Wednesday, April 07, 2004, 07:49 (Agree/Disagree?) Firstly you didn’t bother to read my response in which I pointed out that you misunderstood what I had said. In your link Thomas Malthus is quoted claiming that the population is increasing ‘faster than food production and feared eventual global starvation’. Which he suggests will bring global doom for the human race. There is no mention of technological advancement in ecology and farming techniques. Instead he gives the analogy of the story of rice and the chess board that originated in Persia ‘offering a classic example of the exponential growth’. Your suggested reading of The United Nations Population Division, Briefing Packet, 1998 Revision of World Population Prospects proves my point more than anything. This suggested that the European population will decrease from the current 12% to 7% of the global population distribution over the next fifty years. I think it is pretty arrogant of us to think that just because we live in the Western World we have any say in what happens in global politics. I do remember the protest on the World Bank in Seattle and the reaction of the Police and Military to their protest. Globalization has also reached as far as environmental and ecological research and organizations. Banks and corporations may donate large amounts of capital to environmental organizations. Other than being tax breaks such ‘Greening’ of their image I assume provides some influence on projects. Somehow I feel human nature will evolve to meet what may be thrown at it. And I have had quite enough of messages of doom and destruction. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Wednesday, April 07, 2004, 14:54 (Agree/Disagree?) One more thing, Thomas Malthus didn't write the article in my link. I'm not sure if that's what you were trying to say. I assume he is mentioned because he is a leader in research helping us understand exponential growth and developing mathematical models used to predict such growth. He is a bit of a "gloom and doom" type of guy, but it doesn't negate his work. The article itself mentions the fact that Malthus doesn't include technological advances in farming. I wasn't sure with the wording of your paragraph if you understood this or not. Keep in mind that even the most advanced farming technology ultimately relies on a healthy, clean, and sustainable ecosystem. Also keep in mind that as global populations expand, more and more farm land is being lost to urbanization and suburbanization, as is the case in much of Europe. The first link was included as it leads to publications on population structures for the US, UK, and Asia. If you look at the population age structure diagrams of each country, as well as those of the developed countires vs. developing, you will see the similarity I am reffering to. As far as the 60% population increase, if that is not your personal opinion, I applaud you, but even if such an increase is required to sustain the current economic structure (I was unable to find such info in the links), the fact remains that this increase will never be sustained ecologically, as is not touted as being sustainable by the UN or any other organization, esp. not for Europe, one of the most densely populated regions on earth. Given our backgrounds, I can understand your aversion to "gloom and doom" predicitons, but the fact is that there are viable and credible alternatives to such predicitons. That is why the study of ecology is so important. We as humans need economies to prosper and maintain a certain quality of life, but we as a species, and thus our economies, are in fact dependant on this planet as well as the other organisms we share it with. How we manage our resources will determine our ultimate success!(reply to this comment)

From Dani Thursday, April 08, 2004, 18:19 (Agree/Disagree?) I’m quite aware that he didn’t write the article, but I said Thomas Malthus is quoted claiming that the population is increasing ‘faster than food production’ and he ‘feared eventual global starvation’. I'm sure that environmental organizations may strive to be ‘independent of political influence’, in much the same way as politicians strive to be independent of lobbyists. You have made your views about immigrants quite clear in your comments at the bottom of this article, which mostly begrudged the funding given them through the educational system. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Thursday, April 08, 2004, 22:56 (Agree/Disagree?) "I'm sure that environmental organizations may strive to be ‘independent of political influence’, in much the same way as politicians strive to be independent of lobbyists." Do you still not comprehend the difference between politics and science? I've explained it before and I'm not gonna waste my time again! Like your sister, I'm getting bored!! "You have made your views about immigrants quite clear in your comments at the bottom of this article, which mostly begrudged the funding given them through the educational system." This strikes me as a tad judgemental! I disagree with the way the US government will hand out free college to an immigrant before helping out a citizen who makes enough to get by but has to go into massive debt in to attend college! I do not "begrudge" anyone what is fair and right! (reply to this comment)

From Dani Friday, April 09, 2004, 16:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Science is not my field of study and don’t claim to be an expert on the topic. As far as science being independent from politics and governments, I disagree with you. You have previously stated that the kind of research you are currently involved in is leaf litter decay rates. Who do you think is going to implement the findings of your research? As far as government control over scientific research I think stem cell research proves this point, as there are strict government guidelines as to what may be done in the name of science. Drug research is another area in which pharmaceutical corporations dictate what drugs may be researched and approved for consumers. In the UK the Eden Projects has received much recognition in the ecological field. This scheme was half funded by a charity and the other half by banks. This environmentally friendly project is also involved in the study of genetically modified foods. I sure that there may be some scientists whom are independent from politics, government and globalisation, but most interact in some way with such organisation. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Friday, April 09, 2004, 17:41 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm assuming your replying to my comment below in which I stated, "And once again, you are confusing environmentalism with environmental science. Scientific research grants are for the most part supplied by federaly funded organizations such as The National Science Foundation which strive to be independant of political influence. Organizations such as The Nature Conservancy and The Sierra Club regularly recieve donations from companies wanting to "green up" their image." I never claimed politics and science were totally independant of eachother. However, The National Science Foundation, the largest and most well-respected organization, is a federal, academic, non-political organization. There are other organizations which are not and don't claim to be. When papers are being peer reviewed and considered for publication, the funding source/s are one of the first things looked at. When I refer to "scientific research", I am refering to a hypothesis that has been tested, results analyzed, and data presented in a written and published paper which adheres to strict guidelines. The paper must have an introduction explaining background and hypotheses, a methods section so that peers can review the methods used, a results section that gives data, tables, graphs, and statistics, and a discussion which ties the work into its field of study and is the authors defense of his/her work. The job of science is to research, analyze, and report. After that, it's the job of the public, thus politics, to debate and discuss on the actual implemention of such findings. I agree with you on who it is that actually implements the findings! For example, the hole in the ozone layer was discovered, the scientists were ridiculed (by the companies creating the chemicals in question), the problem got worse, the public was adversely affected, public outcry, the scientists were vindicated, then the political leaders took steps to implement the necessary laws and regulations to address the problem. Margaret Thatcher was particularly helpfull in persuading Regean to sign the treaty to ban CFC's. She had a chemistry background and could actually understand the chemical process that was destroying the ozone! This is why we need politicians with science backgrounds!!!! The Eden project you refer to appears to be a wonderful tool for public education, but isn't "scientific research" in the technical sense. I think part of the problem here is you and I are on another page as to what "scientific research" actually is!(reply to this comment)

From Dani Saturday, April 10, 2004, 11:19 (Agree/Disagree?) My understanding of the activities of Eden Projects is from the book written by Tim Smit. He is an extremely talented coordinator and although his background is in art has achieved a great deal with his contributions to both the Eden Project Scheme and ‘the lost gardens of Heligan’. I have visited the Eden Projects twice and would recommend a visit to anyone interested in such topics. (reply to this comment)

From exister Thursday, April 08, 2004, 19:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Let it be known to all that every time someone starts talking too mean to Dani Jules will shut down this site for a 24 hour cooling off period. If the verbal abuse of Dani continues after the site is turned on she will intentionally butcher all incoming articles and comments until their grammar is so atrocious that JoeH will have an epileptic fit. All hail our great webmaster!(reply to this comment)

From night_raver Friday, April 09, 2004, 10:37 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh no!! Then fmrjoy, you must quit "verbally abusing" Jules's siblings so we don't have to go through this again. And no Jules, I'm not addicted...if this isn't the ONLY site you visit throughout the day, you're not addicted, right? <>(reply to this comment)

From Jules Friday, April 09, 2004, 00:09 (Agree/Disagree?) Perhaps someone should build a site for "addicts of MovingOn". movingonfrommovingon.org? The number of frantic phone calls and email messages was alarming. That's why I posted an announcement on the home page. But damn right if people are mean to my sisters I get annoyed. I'm sure you feel the same about your sisters. Can you get a salute to go with that chant? That would be cool. And that's webMistress to you. ;)(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Friday, April 09, 2004, 15:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Come on, Jules, I don't think I was "mean" to your sister! I've had hotter debates with others and this site and you never jumped into defend them! If you wanna defend your siblings, I understand, I'd do the same, but don't act like I was being mean or maliciously trying to put Dani down! And I hope your reference to "ad hominem" attacks was not towards me as I don't see how anything I said could've been construed as such. If anything, Dani's reference to my "begrudging" of education funds for immigrants fit that description better than anything I said! I don't have a problem with Dani, I just disagree with both of you on the issues we've been discussing! I don't think either of you are looking at the whole picture! (reply to this comment)

From Jules Friday, April 09, 2004, 16:51 (Agree/Disagree?) I wasn't specifically referring to you, but statements like: "please, educate yourself before you go spouting something so ridiculous like that!” “Why do I even bother?? Obviously my comment went way over your head!” “Do you still not comprehend the difference between politics and science?” seem a bit ad hominem to me. They are insinuations about the character or competence of the person one is debating rather than the topic of debate itself, which could have been potentially been rather interesting. I'm sure you are aware of this already frmjoyish, but you end every sentence with at least one exclamation mark. Besides the obvious reason why that might be offputting to someone raised in the Family, people write like that on the net when they are "shouting". It's like writing in all caps. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Friday, April 09, 2004, 16:35 (Agree/Disagree?) To say those were references to her character is absurd! They were made out of frustration, if anything! As for competence, I think it just so happens to be extremely relative in a debate. (look, no !) I think the debate could've been more interesting had I had a more competent partner! As far as the way I punctuate my informal writing, I guess some people will just have to be put off! If that ruins someone's day, then they need to get a life! I use !! to emphasise, not shout! It's just a habit, I guess! I think you are incredibly smart and I agree with almost everything you say, but you're way over reacting to my exchanges with your sister. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Friday, April 09, 2004, 16:33 (Agree/Disagree?) (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Friday, April 09, 2004, 16:33 (Agree/Disagree?) To say those were references to her character is absurd! They were made out of frustration, if anything! As for competence, I think it just so happens to be extremely relative in a debate. (look, no !) I think the debate could've been more interesting had I had a more competent partner! As far as the way I punctuate my informal writing, I guess some people will just have to be put off! If that ruins someone's day, then they need to get a life! I use !! to emphasise, not shout! It's just a habit, I guess! I think you are incredibly smart and I agree with almost everything you say, but you're way over reacting to my exchanges with your sister. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Friday, April 09, 2004, 16:33 (Agree/Disagree?) To say those were references to her character is absurd! They were made out of frustration, if anything! As for competence, I think it just so happens to be extremely relative in a debate. (look, no !) I think the debate could've been more interesting had I had a more competent partner! As far as the way I punctuate my informal writing, I guess some people will just have to be put off! If that ruins someone's day, then they need to get a life! I use !! to emphasise, not shout! It's just a habit, I guess! I think you are incredibly smart and I agree with almost everything you say, but you're way over reacting to my exchanges with your sister. (reply to this comment)

From The Pedantic Prick Friday, April 09, 2004, 16:24 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm not sure if I would describe debates as "hot," but rather as "heated." A "hot debate" sounds like something that might take place on an adult website. That being said, I'm the only one who's been giving Dani any tongue-lashings lately, so the reference to 'ad hominem attacks' was definitely not directed at you.(reply to this comment)

From Dani Friday, April 09, 2004, 16:49 (Agree/Disagree?) Gone from obsessing about my looks to visions of “hotness”, get over it Jo H it’s not going to happen. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Friday, April 09, 2004, 17:06 (Agree/Disagree?) How can I obsess over your looks if I don't know what you look like? In any case, your English is such a turn off that I think even if you looked like Thandie Newton, you'd get no tongue-lashings from me.(reply to this comment)

From Vicky Friday, April 09, 2004, 18:06 (Agree/Disagree?) Surely you don't mean that, Joe? Anyone who would pass up Thandie Newton must be mad - I mean, I wouldn't turn her down!(reply to this comment)

From Vicky Friday, April 09, 2004, 18:47 (Agree/Disagree?) Excuse my mistake... I guess if she only *looked* like Thandie Newton it might be understandable. (reply to this comment)

From Dani Friday, April 09, 2004, 17:29 (Agree/Disagree?) That’s strange considering that you made a rather kinky cyber attempt to give me a tongue lashing. Don’t worry Jo I’m sure you’ll meet someone nice soon. (reply to this comment)

From Friday, April 09, 2004, 18:12 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm afraid it would have to be somebody *not* nice for Joe H.(reply to this comment)

From Friday, April 09, 2004, 18:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Who knows they could have a fun kinky game, taking it turns to be a Grammar Nazi. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Friday, April 09, 2004, 18:56

From Friday, April 09, 2004, 18:25 (Agree/Disagree?) That's him and his *not* nice person. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Thursday, April 08, 2004, 23:02 (Agree/Disagree?) LOL!! So that was my fault?? And here I wasn't even trying to be mean! Imagine if I was!!!(reply to this comment)

From sarafina Thursday, April 08, 2004, 20:39 (Agree/Disagree?) hahaha That was to funny! I was wondering what happened to the site.(reply to this comment)

From sarafina Friday, April 09, 2004, 00:32 (Agree/Disagree?) OK well I guess I'd better clarify a few things. I was only laughing at ex's comment. I like Dani and have a great respect for you Jules.Now that you have explained the reason I'm glad I didn't make any comments as I did find her comments making no sense. I figured it was just me and I'm glad I didn't make any comments about it however I did agree with some of the comments made although maybe wouldn't have put it so harshly. I'm am by far the least qualified to point out anyone's errors in writing as I'm one of the worst but this wasn't a case of spelling or grammar. I like you, would have done the same in defending my sis or any of my friends or family just as I've seen you do many times. Although I did think comparing Exister to Berg was almost as low and mean as some of the comments made to your sis just done a little more eloquently. It did not make me lose any respect for you although I disagreed, but rather I admired that you'd stoop to the same ugliness to stand up for a friend. As we all know what you said was the ultimate insult no matter how nicely you said it.(reply to this comment)

From Jules Friday, April 09, 2004, 01:36 (Agree/Disagree?) I wasn't aware that you knew Dani at all, let alone liked her. Ironically, I have much more in common with Exister than JW. Ex and I left around the same time, have similar jobs now and share the same political, religious and philosophical views, while JW is a Republican and a Christian. I personally know that JW is a very decent guy, but I am sure Ex is as well. I don't agree with everything Dani said. I believe that environmentalism should be a key factor in political and economic debate, and I support my government's ratification of the Kyoto Accord. I agree that cross-disciplinary studies are essential to balance in the academic field. What bothers me are unprovoked personal insults and ad hominem statements (an argument being rejected on the basis of some irrelevant claim about the author). I posted the documentation for Dani's statements on this same page over a year ago and nothing she said was stupid or ignorant. If someone wades into or initiates a discussion throwing out insults left and right, then they are sort of asking for the same in return. She did not do that. Exister bashed JW because he thought that he was unduly influenced by TF's indoctrinations. We are all unduly influenced by TF's indoctrinations. We were raised with that and taught those things as children. Who knows how long it will take to really get past all of that, which was my point in my article "Undue Influence". Comparisons could be made for any of us here to Berg and that was my point. Perhaps it's a cultural thing. Brits do not usually spell it all out in black and white, but just insinuate and others understand their meaning. We believe that's more polite. Some people on this web site are very aggressive and while that's not necessarily a bad thing, it can be very intimidating to other people who have just as much right to be here and to post their own opinions. Bullies really annoy me a great deal and I take great exception to those who gang up on someone for personal reasons. I agree with Nancy and Fmrjoyish that rage can be a wonderful motivator, but I have found in my own life that venting that rage on people who are equally as hurt is just bad karma all round. I definitely have personal feelings and loyalty where my own family is involved. I respect and love Dani immensely and there is nothing I would not do for her. Most of the time though on here though it's more that I do feel responsible for trying to ensure, at the very least, that this web site does no harm. We have all been through enough pain and hurt and if something written here is perpetuating or compounding the encumbrances that we already carry, then it bothers me a lot. That is the last thing the in world that I want to see happen. Most of the time other people speak up, but sometimes something bothers me to the point where I feel I need to write something. The point of this site, and while I appreciate the opinions of everyone else on what this site is for, frankly I am the person who gets to say this, is for the free expression of those who were raised in the Family on their own experiences. I put all this in the disclaimer when the site was launched. All opinions have equal validity because they are the opinions of people who have personally experienced these things for themselves. We speak our own truth and if we want respect for our viewpoints from others than we have to respect their right to their own views first. One problem with the current format of this site is that it does not differentiate between debate and support. A discussion on politics, for example is open to all viewpoints, as long as they can be backed up with facts and logic or are not fallacious or ad hominem. A similar sort of challenge on a discussion on the abuse a person suffered would be simply inappropriate. Version 3 of MovingOn will address this. (reply to this comment)

From exister Friday, April 09, 2004, 11:57 (Agree/Disagree?) Boy I'll tell ya. All this talk about ad hominem attacks is making me hungry. It has been so long since I had big, hot bowl of Pozole. All those fat chunks of hominy floating around with strips of beef make for a scrumptuous lunch. Squeeze in some fresh lime and grab a bolillo for dipping and you are in Mexican stew heaven. Mmm, mmm, mmm.(reply to this comment)

From sarafina Friday, April 09, 2004, 04:14 (Agree/Disagree?) I meant liked your sis Jules as in I've talked w/ her in the chartroom a few times when I first came on this site and have read other things she posted and know people who know her.I guess I should have been more specific seeing as everyone takes everything so litteral. I like most people on here that I've talked to regardless of wither I agree with them or not on issues. I don't think this was about wither her points were valid or not and as you said and I agree" All opinions have equal validity" I think people were just trying to understand what those points were that's all. I've always had great respect for JW also but then I also could understand where existers comments were coming from cause had I not read everything JW has posted or had I not talked to him personally in the chatroom or emails and know exactly where he stands I too may have thought "that he was unduly influenced by TF's indoctrinations" by reading some of those comments. Which is why I said nothing and found it comical that was even in question I also felt JW could hold his own. ;-) Anyways I'm not trying to start another debate on anything. I made the last comment to clear up that I was not poking fun at you sis merely laughing at the comment as it was pretty funny. I was not intending to offend anyone. I wasn't expecting a whole page to be written back as I am no match for your writing skills and wit. So once more I'm sorry if I offended anyone by laughing at that comment and would like to end this misunderstanding. (reply to this comment)

From Jules Friday, April 09, 2004, 17:03 (Agree/Disagree?) I've always liked you Sara, though I've never met you, so I know what you mean about getting to "know" people online. I appreciate you clarifying that it was what I said to Exister that seemed offensive to you, as his friend, and that this wasn't about Dani. I can understand that and respect you for saying so. I was just a bit frustrated last night, and a nice long rant made me feel better. We are upgrading the servers and databases at work, as well as for this web site at the same time and upgrades are always a bit frustrating and annoying. (reply to this comment)

From Shaka Friday, April 09, 2004, 02:12 (Agree/Disagree?) (End of message from Jules) Heh heh, sorry. Couldn't resist.(reply to this comment)

From SmilingFace Thursday, April 08, 2004, 19:34 (Agree/Disagree?) But she's sexy. (reply to this comment)

From LoveMeTender Thursday, April 08, 2004, 19:33 (Agree/Disagree?) But she's sexy.(reply to this comment)

From LoveMeTender Thursday, April 08, 2004, 19:33 (Agree/Disagree?) But she's sexy.(reply to this comment)

From banal_commentator Friday, April 09, 2004, 15:18 (Agree/Disagree?) The banal one will bless the participates of movingon.org with her banal comments once they get off on these banally redundant topics. (reply to this comment)

From banal_commentator Friday, April 09, 2004, 15:18 (Agree/Disagree?) The banal one will bless the participates of movingon.org with her banal comments once they get off on these banally redundant topics. (reply to this comment)

From Jules Wednesday, April 07, 2004, 15:34 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually, it's not the population that would need a 59% increase but the level of immigration would need to be raised to the extent that the UK would, in 2050, be 59% foreign immigrants. Given the 1995 population of 58.3 million, this would bring the population to 136 million, about a 43% increase. I already posted these links and quotes, but here they are again: "-United Nations projections indicate that between 1995 and 2050, the population of Japan and virtually all countries of Europe will most likely decline. In a number of cases, including Estonia, Bulgaria and Italy, countries would lose between one quarter and one third of their population. -In contrast, the population of the United States is projected to increase by almost a quarter. The population of the European Union, which in 1995 was larger than that of the United States by 105 million, in 2050, will become smaller by 18 million. -Population ageing will be pervasive, bringing the median age of population to historically unprecedented high levels. For instance, in Italy, the median age will rise from 41 years in 2000 to 53 years in 2050. The potential support ratio -- i.e., the number of persons of working age (15-64 years) per older person -- will often be halved, from 4 or 5 to 2. - The levels of migration needed to prevent population ageing are many times larger than the migration streams needed to prevent population decline. Maintaining potential support ratios would in all cases entail volumes of immigration entirely out of line with both past experience and reasonable expectations. http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2000/20000317.dev2234.doc.html Analysis of UK Population Trends “ Keeping the [1995 support] ratio would require 59.8 million migrants between 1995 and 2050, slightly more than one million migrants a year on average. The overall population would reach 136 million in 2050, of which 80 million (59 per cent) would be post-1995 migrants or their descendants… In absence of migration, the figures show that it would be necessary to raise the upper limit of the working-age to about 72 years in order to obtain in 2050 the same potential support ratio observed in 1995 in the United Kingdom, i.e. 4.1 persons of working-age per each older person past working-age.” http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/migration/uk.pdf This is getting a little boring. How about a topic change?(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Thursday, April 08, 2004, 22:36 (Agree/Disagree?) If your sister had been more clear on the "population increase" you wouldn't be so bored right now!!!(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Wednesday, April 07, 2004, 14:05 (Agree/Disagree?) So lets just all live in happy lala land and stick our heads in the sand hoping it all gets better somehow! If you knew jack crap about the ecology field, you'd know it's not all "messages of doom and destruction". But the bottom line is, things won't get better by themselves, we have no control over our own evolution (evolution leads to extinction as well as speciation, remember), and yes, we can take action to improve the health of our planet thus improving the quality of life for humans. And I never said Europe's population is increasing, only that our population structures, compared to the developing nations, are similar, not exact, similar! And once again, you are confusing environmentalism with environmental science. Scientifc research grants are for the most part supplied by federaly funded organizations such as The National Science Foundation which strive to be independant of political influence. Organizations such as The Nature Conservancy and The Sierra Club regularly recieve donations from companies wanting to "green up" their image. (reply to this comment)

From Dani Wednesday, April 07, 2004, 14:24 (Agree/Disagree?) I was simply quoting from the link that you so kindly suggested for me to read. Speaking of confusing fields, what did your initial argument on ‘the population having to increase’ have to do with my argument of immigrants needed to economically MAINTAIN stability in the British economy?(reply to this comment)

From Dani Wednesday, April 07, 2004, 06:28 (Agree/Disagree?) I wasn’t calling for the UK to increase its population by 60%, but said in order for the current economic structure to be maintained it needs to be increased by that much. Obviously that is not possible in such a small country. (reply to this comment)

From Dani Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 10:50 (Agree/Disagree?) I wasn’t calling for the UK to increase its population by 60%, but said in order of the current economic structure to be maintained it’s needs to be increased by that much. Obviously that is not possible in such a small country. The apparent solution of this is to charge our generation high university fees, extremely high taxes with little or no prospect of pensions when we retire. My point is while people are fighting over racist issues and blaming the rise of the cost of living on immigrants and refugees the UK is becoming more and more capitalist. I don’t really have a moral opinion as to where the UK becoming less socialist is a good or bad thing. The fact still remains that it is me and my peers who are going to have to foot the bill for such changes. I know a capitalism structure may seem normal in the States, so maybe this seems quite irrelevant to you. (reply to this comment)

From */ Monday, April 05, 2004, 20:43 (Agree/Disagree?) That's a bit rich coming from an American. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Monday, April 05, 2004, 22:04 (Agree/Disagree?) This American calls it as she sees it! And I don't do so while hiding behind anonymous symbols!(reply to this comment)

From exister Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 16:31 (Agree/Disagree?) I think he prefers to be called "The Artist Formerly Known as Asterisk Forward Slash"(reply to this comment)

From night_raver Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 08:49 (Agree/Disagree?) As much as I hate and detest cheerleading (it's funner to debate)...way to go fmrjoy, U rock!! Nice to hear some fact-based information, Great Britain must have something akin to the U.S.'s very own Rush Limbaugh and Co. (idiot conservative talk-show people who make a living spouting their trailer-park wisdom developed from generations of inbreeding and pooling their collective conservative ignorance) for people to spout this stuff. I'm curious about all you Brits, do you also believe that global warming is a fallacy developed by "the liberals trying to take over the country"?(reply to this comment)

From night_raver Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 08:48 (Agree/Disagree?) As much as I hate and detest cheerleading (it's funner to debate)...way to go fmrjoy, U rock!! Nice to hear some fact-based information, Great Britain must have something akin to the U.S.'s very own Rush Limbaugh and Co. (idiot conservative talk-show people who make a living spouting their trailer-park wisdom developed from generations of inbreeding and pooling their collective conservative ignorance) for people to spout this stuff. I'm curious about all you Brits, do you also believe that global warming is a fallacy developed by "the liberals trying to take over the country"?(reply to this comment)

from Shaka Monday, April 05, 2004 - 13:14 (Agree/Disagree?) Right on Taz, I know exactly what you mean. First of all, let me say that I am not nor have I ever been a racist. But I am so sick of people making themselves out to be victims when they are the biggest aggressors in America today. I live in Windsor, Canada, across the river from Detroit. Every day when I turn on the news there’s another black man being arrested for shooting somebody or dealing drugs and around the camera is a crowd of people screaming injustice and racism. People tell me I’m crazy for joining the military because the death toll in Iraq is now up to 600. In the city of Detroit last year alone there were 650 murders, 85% by blacks and Hispanics. I think I’ll feel safer in Iraq. Every day I hear some black guy talking about how we have such a problem with racism in America especially in the South. There is not a white neighborhood in America, including the Deep South, where an innocent black man has to fear for his life just to walk down the street in broad daylight. But in every major city in America there are whole city blocks where it could mean death for a white man to enter. Police will not even enter some of our neighborhoods. Cops are afraid to get involved in many situations since it could mean their job if they are seen to be "racist" which is a favorite thing for whining blacks to scream when they’re being locked up. White people are afraid to say anything about blacks for fear of being called a racist or bigot. Every time a political figure or celebrity says something remotely anti-minority they are vilified and usually forced to issue a public apology. Meanwhile, our country’s black leaders can say anything they want about whites with no fear of retribution. This country’s 30 million blacks have got its 200 million whites by the balls and completely intimidated. We can’t defend ourselves because some idiot will start screaming racism. It’s common knowledge that black criminals in America far outnumber the whites. The jails are overflowing with blacks and the only explanation they can give is racism. Did they ever stop to think that maybe if they’d stop massacring each other and us maybe they wouldn’t have this problem? And why the hell do they keep bringing slavery up? There is not a white man alive who has ever owned a slave nor a black who has ever been one so why doesn’t everyone just shut the fuck up?! It’s over and done with! We don’t have to apologize or try to make amends for something we had nothing to do with. It’s time for them to stop whining and take some fucking responsibility. Again, I have many black friends and I have nothing against people who are just trying to live a normal life and be happy, black or white. It’s not the color I hate, just the attitude. Look at Rap, black’s biggest pride and joy. Basically what they are saying is that they are proud to be thugs, pimps, dealers, and murderers. They are proud to be the scum of America. They’re proud that they treat their women like whores and murder each other in the streets. But of course, if a white person says anything like that, he’s a racist and is more than likely to get himself shot. But it’s ok for blacks to call each other niggers and talk freely about their way of life, however horrible it might be. My idea is if you call yourself a nigger or a thug or anything else like that then that’s what you are and should be treated as such. White people need to wake up and grow some balls and quit bending over and taking it up the ass like they’ve been doing for years now. We need our country back. I am totally against racism of any kind but it needs to go both ways. If minorities want to be seen as equals it’s time to start acting like equals. The same goes for ethnic groups coming here and setting up their own miniature countries without a thought for accepting the culture of the nation that was good enough to accept them. And if they find some of our ways offensive to their religion or customs or what ever the case may be, so fucking what? It’s our country. If they don’t like it, they can go back to wherever it is they came from and be happy there. I’ve talked to a lot of blacks on the subject of racism and they totally agree with me. One guy from Detroit said that many blacks create white racists just by their insane behavior. I know that the majority of blacks are good people who just want to live and let live. But it’s the ones who act so blatantly racist that are giving the rest of them a bad name. Sorry to all of you minorities that read this and don’t fall into the category mentioned above. I think it’s pretty clear that I’m not talking about you. Peace out all. (reply to this comment)

From exister Wednesday, April 07, 2004, 12:10 (Agree/Disagree?) I find it kind of funny when people open their comment with a disclaimer decrying racism and then carry on about those violent minorities in the ghetto. The question of whether or not someone is racist is largely a matter of interpretation. I prefer tacos that are made by native Mexican street vendors. I am sure that makes me racist in someone's view. Why don't you just speak your piece and let your words be judged on their own merits. Hmm, tacos, looks like it's lunchtime...(reply to this comment)

From Shaka Friday, April 09, 2004, 02:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I opened with a disclaimer because I am aware of what a touchy subject this is and I had no wish to be labeled as a racist when nothing could be further from the truth. I think I made it pretty obvious that my views are about individuals, not an entire race. Did somebody say tacos? (reply to this comment)

From neez Monday, April 05, 2004, 17:56 (Agree/Disagree?) lol.. I didn't know Canada had a ghetto problem. & what does Canadian gangsta rap sound like? "Me an ma homies oot to cap that motherfuck ay" -apologies Jules :P & I guess Canada must've banned all of Eminem's CDS. Time to wake up & smell the maple syrup dude. Or do you just cross the border everytime you feel the need to be racist?(reply to this comment)

From Shaka Monday, April 05, 2004, 20:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Did I miss something? When did I say a damn thing about Canada? I've only been here for a few months and I'm leaving in another couple. I was talking about the US where I grew up and it's minority problem. Wasn't that obvious?(reply to this comment)

From neez Thursday, April 08, 2004, 18:21 (Agree/Disagree?) So would you say you were culturaly confused?(reply to this comment)

From Jules Monday, April 05, 2004, 22:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Gosh, debates are fun. :) Don't give up on Canada this soon. We have tons of minorities and yet don't have the boarded ghettos of Detroit. If you hate violence so much, why would you want to leave here? (I can totally understand if the freaking weather is be a factor) The logical conclusion would be that the problem is not a matter of race or minorities, but perhaps something different. Let's see, "guns don't kill people, people kill people". It can't be immigrants since they are mostly quite well behaved in Canada. Canada is also poorer than the US, so let's rule out poverty. We get the same media influences. Children worldwide play the same video games, and we all watch the same movies. What is it that makes some places more violent than others? I really wonder what the answer is?(reply to this comment)

From exister Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 14:02 (Agree/Disagree?) Or as the Canadians put it, "Guns don't kill people, it's those crazy Americans with guns that kill people. Eh?"(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 13:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Dammit I thought you were going to be able to tell us! Oh well, I see your point, but for what it's worth, when I was in Toronto I remember reading about violence in the black communities, but maybe the rates are so low in every other neighborhood that one or two "bitch-slappings" provoked some journalist to write an article. Discuss...(reply to this comment)

From Shaka Monday, April 05, 2004, 23:34 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm leaving because I'm joining the US military. Violence is sometimes necessary. (reply to this comment)

From sarafina Monday, April 05, 2004, 18:35 (Agree/Disagree?) Ha! Neez no mater how hard I tried not to laugh I found this comment just as witty as funny. As much as I don't always agree with your views I have to say I've always enjoyed the way you present and defend them cause if anything and I get a good kick out of your responses. I always walk away smiling or laughing instead of wanting to lash back rude obsentities.LOL It's quite a talent you have.=)(reply to this comment)

From Jules Monday, April 05, 2004, 18:34 (Agree/Disagree?) Those hardcore Windsor streets (population 208,000). I live downtown in the only real city in Canada (:p to the West Coasters) right next to a "Canadian Ghetto". I didn't know it was one at the time I moved in since I'd never been in this part of town before. Gosh it's rough sometimes. The streets are only cleaned twice a week and sometimes we have to wait a whole day for the snowplough. I saw graffiti once on a wall. (it said, of all things, "have a nice day". Someone had added, "thanks you too"--I kid you not). I was broken into once, but I did leave the garage door wide open. The bastards took my power tools, but they did tidy the garage for me, and in fairness to them, these are hard times for lumberjacks. There are homeless people and they can be quite persistent with their attempts to give me quarters for cigarettes. Sometimes groups of teenagers come prowling and banging in the evenings and it's nice to see such enthusiam for snow-shovelling. You can hear gunfire sometimes, but that's probably because on the other side of my neighbourhood is an army base, and it's great fun to watch all 15 of our brave muscular troops marching around. Oh and this city is 60% non-caucasian. Shaka, you could just watch CBC and leave the fear-mongering American media to itself. (reply to this comment)

From neez Thursday, April 08, 2004, 18:18 (Agree/Disagree?) lol.. I'm pleasently surprised Jules, you own/owned a set of powertools!? (reply to this comment)

From Shaka Monday, April 05, 2004, 20:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes Jules, I was not talking about Windsor. Windsor is pretty much the safest cities I've ever been to. I was talking about Detroit which I visit regularly being only 20 minutes from the border. (reply to this comment)

From sarafina Monday, April 05, 2004, 16:54 (Agree/Disagree?) Great comment! I couldn't have said it better.I'm at work and a little busy otherwise I'd add to this comment. You are so hot right now! grrrrrrrr(reply to this comment)

From Shaka Friday, April 09, 2004, 02:36 (Agree/Disagree?) Arrrrrrrroooooooooooooowww!!!!! Here doggy doggy!(reply to this comment)

From sarafina Friday, April 09, 2004, 03:47 (Agree/Disagree?) Are you calling me a doggy? Oh maybe I should have said meeeoooow in stead of grrrrrr..lol(reply to this comment)

From Shaka Friday, April 09, 2004, 14:01 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes you do strike me as more feline. Gimmee the claws!(reply to this comment)

From DeMan Monday, April 05, 2004, 15:57 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't have time for a long post, but I totally agree! Blacks are lot more racist than whites and I am tired of their whining and moaning about how mistreated they are. If they want respect the earn it! Stop idolizing people that are thugs and criminals and stop being the biggest drain on welfare. If you don't like the ghetto then go to school, get an education and get a job! Unfortunately most of the ones that do get a good job still live in a ghetto $40k house so they can afford the $50k Escalade outside with the 21 chrome spinning rims and the candy apple red paint job. Even their leaders are shady! Martin Luther king was a cheating bastard that was known for having his whores while on the road and had several kids out of wedlock that his wife didn't know about. Jesse Jackson also admitted to cheating on his wife with that biach from the rainbow coalition and then didn't pay child support for a while. And wasn't there a scandal about his shady tax dealings with that rainbow coalition? The time is coming when we are going to put a stop to this politically correct bullshit and label the NAACP, Black panthers and all the rest of those hate groups just the same way we label the KKK. I have a friend that worked for Enron when it fell and Jesse Jackson visited the employees to try get them jobs. Well because my friend was white he was not listed for help and out of the 120ish people that were there he helped 19 get jobs and guess what color they ALL were. (reply to this comment)

From Spat Monday, April 05, 2004, 18:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Being an African American myself, I do agree that some blacks do still persist to play the victim in a society that no longer victimizes them. I disagree with your assessment of Martin Luther King, so what if Martin Luther did cheat on his wife, does that diminish his accomplishments? Does my dad (who by the way could not use the same toilets as the white man and/or even phantom going to college 30 years ago) think any less of him because of it? Does it change the fact that he (nonviolently) helped shape America? I think the answers to every single one of those is a resounding, hell NO!! A good question you ask is; Why is the avg black male more inclined to crime? There are a variety of reasons, one is culture (which yes I agree its now primary the black mans fault), But there is a lot of other reasons as well, are you aware that 30 years ago it was impossible for blacks to go to college? This means that young blacks at this point have parents who are uneducated and unable to provide them with an education and/or decent life. The closest example I can find is the family children who now find themselves having a harder time trying to find their way in life due to the fact that our parents lack education and economical power, yes some of us are studying and attempting to make something out of our lives but again the culture and upbringing we had is/was inadequate but not one that encouraged violence. Bottom line is that I do agree that lots of blacks in America are dangerous and leeches of society. But if you are going to judge a race because of the following reasons: “They should stop shooting people for their mobile phones; They should stop smuggling drugs into this country; and, If they insist on being violent and the scum of society then they should accept that rival gangs will shoot them, there will be drive-by shootings, and that innocent victims will be hurt in the cross fire; Most importantly, they should stop having children in their native countries if they cant afford to feed them!!” Blacks would then have a right to holler racism because if your thinking is correct then they have a right to complain due to the fact that numerous cases of racism still do occur on a daily basis, so as long as some whites are racist they have a right to scream out Racism any time they choose. All I want to ask of you is that you judge me as a man not a race, same thing I do for you.(reply to this comment)

From Shaka Friday, April 09, 2004, 02:43 (Agree/Disagree?) You go Spat, you're a credit to your race. (reply to this comment)

From itsxena2u Monday, April 05, 2004, 20:37 (Agree/Disagree?) Two thumbs up Spat!! Very well written! As always, you are my man! ;-p(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Monday, April 05, 2004, 19:30 (Agree/Disagree?) Good post Spat! Just one thing, the civil rights movement and the resulting Civil Rights Bill happened in the 60's ('64, I think). So that would make it about 40 years!! Ever since I turned 30, I've been esp. sensitive to things which occured a long time ago, like before I was born, being placed in my lifetime! So please excuse an old lady's analness!!! : )(reply to this comment)

From flexistrength Monday, April 05, 2004, 17:01 (Agree/Disagree?) You so not Da Man :-((reply to this comment)

From sarafina Monday, April 05, 2004, 17:20 (Agree/Disagree?) I guess that's completely a matter of opinion and based on what you personally stand for. But in my opinion regarding this issue (and others) he's very much De Man ;- ) Why don't you explain what it is you disagree with about his comment. (reply to this comment)

From sarafina Monday, April 05, 2004, 16:24 (Agree/Disagree?) I absolutely agree! Great. I'm sick of it too. Every fricking TV show has to hire some sort of ethnic minority if not their show might be considered "racist" so you have to deal w/ poor acting just so they are "politically correct" Same with scholarships they give away scholarships to less qualified people just cause they are required to set aside a certain amount to be given to minorities. It really is getting ridicules! All I have to say is I give thumbs up to this comment and shakas!(reply to this comment)

From cagey Monday, April 05, 2004, 17:17 (Agree/Disagree?) That quite a fascist statement. Yes the world is become more interracial but it usually the white trash that have a problem with it. Don’t you think by getting into a gang mentality real issue are avoided. I know our parent generations were a bunch of brats but a least they got their way. Our generation doesn’t seem to care about the control that government have over us. Yes there is a treat with terrorists, when we were growing up it was the communist. And our grandparents before there were the Germans and Japanese. I know that things have gotten out of control and now things have to take there course. It just seems that people love to hate. The biggest fascists that I personal have met lived in poor areas where they were the ethic minority. (reply to this comment)

From sarafina Monday, April 05, 2004, 18:27 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm just saying that minorities are always screaming for equal rights well if they really wanted to be equal they would earn their place wither it be for a job, scholarship, tv show or financial help. They shouldn't get special treatment or priority status or get a raise instead of getting fired just cause they are a minority or colored. I believe everyone should earn it themselves not be handed some scholarship just because once upon a time their great great great grandparents were servants. And what's this about "it is usually the white trash that have a problem with it"? That couldn't be farther from the truth. I think it's the people who are making something of themselves and who have gotten to where they are by busting their ass and worked hard for what they've made that get pissed when they see someone getting handed a promotion or a scholarship or what not due to not much other reason then they have to keep a certain minority quota. The owner of the company I work for is also a wealthy woman and is of the same view.She owns a million dollar company that she built from scratch. She's very active politically and very well respected an on the board of many organizations. She has worked and fought hard getting to where she is. She is definitely NOT white trash. Yet she has seen this attitude over and over again where more qualified people lose out to minorities just to fill minority quotas. I have a few specific examples from people I know where this has happened. The point is if we had to do it why shouldn't everyone else. Now I might agree that maybe the extreme rich that were just handed over inheritances oar companies or wealth may not fuss about these issues as much seeing as the never had to work for anything. I would disagree though that it is mostly white trash that has a problem w/ it but more the middle working class. As for the rest of your comment I don't know waht it had to do with anything being said.(reply to this comment)

From DeMan Monday, April 05, 2004, 17:33 (Agree/Disagree?) No it's not a fascist statement, it's the damn truth! If you were to not have a black in a reality show you would have the NAACP trying to boycott it just like they tried to do with Toyota cars because there were not enough blacks employed by Toyota. And what’s government control got to do with this thread anyway? (reply to this comment)

From cagey Monday, April 05, 2004, 17:52 (Agree/Disagree?) The fact that our generation has bought into globalization is pretty racist. People have no qualms about wearing clothes that are made by children in the third world countries. No one seems to care about how expensive the world is becoming, everyone just hopes they won’t be in the poor group. Terrible racist acts were done to the Japanese and Germans during the time of the Second World War, people’s fear of communist allowed them to turn a blind eye to things like the McCarthy witch hunts. White people can be just as racist within themselves. Look at Ireland where religion is a huge issue, or Belgium, where the French hate the Flemish. I think people just like to think they are better then other people, and have there own community it feeds the tribal instinct. A lot of times there is a lot more to current events. In Yugoslavia in WWII the Serbians were in concentration camps, thing just don’t happen there is usually a lot of history and propaganda that have brought people to the views that they currently hold. (reply to this comment)

From * Monday, April 05, 2004, 16:15 (Agree/Disagree?) How do you know they are, what do you have to compare it to? (reply to this comment)

from Anthony Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 17:34 (Agree/Disagree?) I just want to know why we're called Negros; there're nothing unusual about the way our knees grow! Ant-Toe-Knee-Grow-With-Da-Flow? (reply to this comment)

From roughneck Wednesday, April 09, 2003, 00:38 (Agree/Disagree?) Really? Darn!...and all this time I thought *that" was why white men can't jump... har har(reply to this comment)

From Grey Area Tuesday, April 08, 2003, 12:45 (Agree/Disagree?) There are a lot of very well educated and successful black and asian people who have blended into society because they have decided to adopt the mentality of the western world and I have a lot of friends who are professionals and I have the utmost respect for so I think saying its black vs white its actually being quite ignorant. My black friends feel exactly the same way we do about people who come into the country claiming benefits and do bugger all to help, Eastern Europeans included so it has nothing to do with race.  They have come to the UK most of them from Jamaican families and they have worked their butts off just like we have, so they are just as indignant as the rest of us! lets not make this a question of race - it's a question of, am I going to be a lazy layabout (whether you are black, white, asian or an blue alien with pink spots) OR am I going to do something with myself and be a useful member of society! Being discriminated myself for being hispanic, I have nothing but respect for the black and asian people who have made it when they came into the country without a penny in their pocket because I too had to fight for an education after leaving the COG and to make myself useful instead of sitting on my backside waiting for handouts! (reply to this comment)

from pharmaboy.. Friday, April 04, 2003 - 09:33 (Agree/Disagree?) I recall stating similar views on this subject on another thread, and all I got was tons of useless flames and remarks like: "you ignorant racist Saffa", I'm not even South African... It's good to be the victim or the minority today. I wasted a lot of my adolescence trying to find my reason for being a victim, I still haven't found a valid reason. It's nice to be the victim, nothing is really your fault, blame it on *insert situation/evil dictator/social status here*. As a victim, you have the right to feel sorry for yourself & don't forget, the world owes you something, so you have the right to be a parasite too. It's fashionable to be the victim.  All this to say that helping *insert oppressed racial minority here* by giving them freebies is not a good solution. Blacks here in SA, because of all the international poor-me's and help, are lazy and prefer easy handouts to scholarships, for example. Why? Because a scholarship takes effort and work from the recipient’s side, free food doesn't. A lot of blacks believe that the government gave white people the new cars and houses they have, so now the black government should do the same for them. Sorry, there may have been apartheid, but SA was not a communist government. If you live in the US or Europe, you know that hard work=money=higher standard of living, welfare is a last resort, not a viable career option. Immigrants to any western country must realize that you get ahead and survive here by YOUR hard work, not by handouts. Governments must make that clear as hell. Also, if you for example, go to live with some wealthier friends that are kind enough to help you out, you obviously won't demand they change their habits and lifestyle to suit yours, you adjust to theirs and show respect and gratitude for their help. Not this 'I'm the poor victim around here, you owe this to me'. Of course you can argue that us evil whites caused all the damage in the first place, and sure, a lot of stuff we did wasn't exactly 'loving'. What are supposed to do though, even though I would love to give the US back to the Indians & hand Bush over as a POW, realistically speaking we could never do that, unless the UN elaborates some global repatriation scheme. Evolution had it's fucking course: the man(white) with the club and the wheel dominated the other men(Asian, black, etc). Don't You think the Africans would have done the same to us if they could? Leave the past, it can't be changed anyways. I'm sick and tired of arguing with English or Americans about WWII, fucking hell, it wasn't even my parents war, it was my grandparents problem. It's not about Black and White anymore, it's all about money. Anyone can make it, if you don't you're either unlucky or stupid. Enough with this victim/minority BS, leave that for the homosexuals and their gay pride marches. Pharma is back again, and he's got a lot to say... :)       (reply to this comment)

From don't blame victims or envy them,help them Friday, April 11, 2003, 15:05 (Agree/Disagree?) I can't see how being a "victim" can be seen as good. I was a victim of the cult, we all were. If there's something to take away from the experience, it should be our self respect and thankfully for most, hardship's can give us the ability to grow stonger.  (reply to this comment)

From Sir Rantalot Wednesday, June 04, 2003, 04:07 (Agree/Disagree?) As usual on this site, people just don't fucking get what I'm trying to say.   (reply to this comment)

From Chuffed Friday, April 04, 2003, 14:39

from conan Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 11:20 (Agree/Disagree?) First of all, your article kicked ass taz. I see the problem every day but the only difference is that I am in the States. Believe when I say that I feel your pain and anger. All these dams spics running around demanding social security and shit when they haven't paid two cents of taxes to our government. Then they expect you to understand their terrible English or worse yet, to speak Spanish. Granted, the problem is not limited to those of hispanic cultures but they are definately the largest ethnic minority here in Florida. The fucking politicians even change their policies to get the Spanish vote. It makes me sick. Democracy kicks ass but we should try and limit who gets to spend our hard earned taxes on what. peace (reply to this comment)

From mex Wednesday, April 02, 2003, 11:48 (Agree/Disagree?) Conan you ignorant inbred hick, I would love to know what you do for your country? When was the last time you voted or paid taxes? You are nothing but a whinny racist mulletheaded vassal. (reply to this comment)

From Taz Thursday, April 03, 2003, 07:17 (Agree/Disagree?) You are in effect a Racist yourself with your "ignorant inbred hick" remark, if he is inbred, that would be no reason to discriminate against him now would it? Can I ask you since when has the word 'racist' meant to be an insult?  If anyone would call me racist I would reply "So f**king what?" the only reason that word has such stigma attached to it is because there is such an issue made about it.  If I wasn't a pure bred Caucasian and said, for example, that I disliked the way white people do certain things and made public statements about it, would I be branded a Racist?  Don't think so!  I would most likely be hailed as the next Martin Luther King.  Until a few decades ago, Americans and British everywhere were proud to say they were "White Supremacist" it was never an issue.  When Negroes had to sit in the back of the buses, or have separate rest rooms etc., where were the white people protesting against racism then?  People nowadays are too damn frightened of them to say what the hell they feel.   Here in England there is no law against racism, but if you get into a fight and are convicted for aggravated assault and you, in the heat of the moment called your opponent a "black bastard" you would most likely get twice the time in jail for what they like to call 'racially aggravated assault'. One other thing that puzzles me is:  Generally speaking the Black community are extremely religious people, ie Christians.  But, as we all know having been brought up with Bible stories day and night, is that the Black people are a "cursed people" and are the "servants of men"(Genesis 9:25).  I am sorry, but if I was religious and the teachings said that my race, sex or age etc., were accursed there would be no f**king way that I would believe in it or practise it.  Are they that stupid that they believe in a God who has basically said that they are the scum of the Earth and then wonder why they were treated like it, at least during the (what they like to call) "Slave Trade" era.  I believe the only reason the British or Americans used them as slaves was because they, as nations, were deeply religious and so understandably took the Bible literally.  (reply to this comment)

From moon beam Wednesday, April 07, 2004, 11:07 (Agree/Disagree?) In my opinion people who consider themselve's not racist are turning away from an ingrained social construct namely;ignorance, bigotry and fear. So to consider these attitude's as something to be proud of and taking it as a compliment to one's character is ludicrous and highly unlikely to impress anyone other than another racist. I personally abhor an elitist exclusive club style mentality Been there done that, don't like it!! Just like I feel believer's are people who haven't found themselves yet, I see racists as people who haven't found other's yet. Christian's obviously see unbeliever's as someone who just hasn't found 'the lord' yet. I wonder why so many religious people are racist! When a christian tries to convert they use the power of prayer and a messy theological framework, parables, outdated values. Where as, when an atheist or a non-racist tries to explain/defend their point of view it's factual, critical and inclusive, using real life stories etc. I wonder who will win? As an atheist you don't need to be saved and I've never met anyone who converted to racism. only the other way round. The rest of your comment is silly, as you know damn well the slave trade happened and they picked the cotton and slaved away so that the U.S could get where it is today. They paid no wages so ,work it out, they grew an economic wealth that was able to take on the whole world after only 200 years. The U.S may be the richest bully on the block with all the toy's, but does his daddy do? The setteler's were deeply suspicious of the 'slaves' gaining their freedom and felt that "what happen's when you beat a dog then let it go?" was going to happen to them, as that's the law of nature they understood-"the dog bites back!" This didn't happen so they try and vilify they're past immorality and cruelty by painting a dreadfull picture of those that they once oppressed. America's constitution should have read "All men are made equal except blacks etc..etc..etc.." That would be more of an honest statement to the world, and just like the cult they think no one will see through their lies and inconsistencies. You actually have to partly thank the femminist movement, due to their supporrt of the anti-slave movement which went hand in hand. But I guess from your point of view it's just another thing to blame Eve for.!! (reply to this comment)

From I Agree Wednesday, April 07, 2004, 12:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Moon beam, that is a great thought: "Just like I feel believer's are people who haven't found themselves yet, I see racists as people who haven't found other's yet." Another part of your comment reminds me of what "Maria" Zerby is doing in things like her "letter" (I think it was called “So You Want to Be a Disciple? For God's Sake Be the Best!”) quoted in Jules' article "Web Rage". I took the liberty of seeing how your incisive paragraph reads if I changed only two words: "[The Family] were deeply suspicious of the 'slaves' gaining their freedom and felt that "what happen's when you beat a dog then let it go?" was going to happen to them, as that's the law of nature they understood-"the dog bites back!" This didn't happen so they try and vilify they're past immorality and cruelty by painting a dreadfull picture of those that they once oppressed." As with so many things, The Family's painting sucks and is a joke! (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Saturday, May 31, 2003, 19:51 (Agree/Disagree?) "When negroes had to sit in the back of the buses, or have separate restrooms etc., where were the white people protesting against racism then?"  Well, let me tell you where they were, they finally got off their asses, went down south and helped out. I know igonorance is no excuse, but once the young people in the north realized what was going on down south due to the news coverage and publicity, many of them risked their own lives and went down south risking their own lives in the process.  There's a book and video series called "Eyes on the Prize" about the '60's civil right movement in the south.  You should read it sometime!  I realize that your in the UK, but it might do you good to read an example of people of different skin colors coming together for a common good.  Many people think of the civil rights movement as "blacks vs. whites", but there were a great deal of white people who not only gave manpower but money and put a great deal of political influence behind it.  The civil rights bill never would have happened if people had not stood up for right and against a certain demographics stupid predjudice and did what they felt was right in their hearts.  Yes, there was a percentage of whites who were horrible to blacks, but there was also a large percentage who disagreed with this and eventually helped it to end.  This was true for the abolitionists during slavery as well as those in the '60's. (reply to this comment)

From Anthony Wednesday, April 23, 2003, 14:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Taz, that’s quite the interesting question, one that I have often asked others and myself.  I have several theories why a large percentage of the black communites worldwide embrace Christianity despite the Ham and Noah fable.  I won’t get into those here, but I will say that there are issues in interpretation.  Many of people don’t believe Ham to be the ancestor of the world’s “darkies” or blacks.  However, it’s really a silly debate since the source is trash.  However, the Bible quite openly advocates slavery, and then contradicts itself and so on.  So, as we all know, people take those parts, which please them at any given time.  For example, according to the bible god through Moses for the rejection of Christ also curses the Jews; however, they obviously don’t see it that was, as is evidenced by their continual belief in their god and Moses.   This past Easter Sunday with the relatives:    They know a little about the cult, I don’t think they know the “gory details” but they know enough to hate it.  However, as Christian as they want to be, they’ve been trying to get me to attend their churches.  They don’t know that I’m an explicit atheist, but they think I’m a bit turned off to religion because of the cult.  So they’re on a mission to show me the “real” Jesus and Christianity – I wish them well. LOL!    You should’ve seen my face when we gathered to “bless the food.”  It was all I could do to keep from laughing out loud.  Then later they said, “we’re not trying to entice you but there are lots of nice young women at the church.”   LOL!   And these relatives in question were all female (mom’s cousins and aunt and so on), and “we’ll treat you to great big lunch after the service.”  They’re so sweet and really do mean well.  However, my rejection of religion is not emotionally based on my upbringing, rather it is an intellectual position.            (reply to this comment)

From ? Thursday, April 03, 2003, 17:08 (Agree/Disagree?) This is EP... am having a hard time signing in to post this: Do you remember the British empire all? Do you remember how they controlled whole other nations and milked thier lands for centuries for the profit of the British government? Do you ever think that having so many immigrants of colour (I am addressing this class as they seem to be the ones you have so much hate towards... you don't seem to mind the "white" ones) can in part be attributed to the history England has in their home countries? I do know that there are ppl out there who use and abuse the race issue to the uttmost believe me whites aren't the only ones fed up w/ these folks those of us who are non white also get upset... I mean it ruins it for all of us. But pls do not judge all "darkies" by the actions of the loud and obnoxious. The England you are wanting sound like the England I lived and went to school in as a child... ever been to Newcastle? I was teased ostracize and mistreated by white children... it traumatised me for yrs... I was the "darkie" (by they way, last time I went up there it was still predominantly white.. perhaps you should move?). Last time I went to London (about a yr and a half ago) I loved it cuz I blended in perfectly... so many half breed children ... hehe. What do you propose should happen to them oh wise one? (reply to this comment)

From Vicky Thursday, April 03, 2003, 15:36 (Agree/Disagree?) Can any of you who know your Bibles pretty well, esp. if you have studied the original Greek/Hebrew or whatever,  pls. enlighten me as to whether the Bible actually does say clearly that the Black Race is cursed, etc.  As far as I remember it was Noah who cursed Ham and said that it would be upon his children and his children's children or something like that, no? So that could have been just one of those curses that were common in the culture of that day and not necessarily the voice of God and a blueprint for history thousands of years later.  I believe you have to take these things in the context of the culture at the time the specific part of the Bible was written and  I TOTALLY DISAGREE with any ideology that presumes to put a whole race of peope under the same blanket --Even more if it's in God's name.    (reply to this comment)

From Hydra Sunday, April 06, 2003, 16:28 (Agree/Disagree?) The Bible says that Noah cursed CANAN (who was one of Ham's sons) and his seed. It says nothing about Ham himself. Ham means "dark" so everyone automatically assumes that he was black. There is no actual mention in the Bible of Ham being black. Furthermore, it was only the Cananites who were then "cursed". When Israel invaded the promised land, they wiped out most of the Cananites. Most of the ones that were left interbred with the tribes around them. The Cananites were not, so far as I know, located in Africa, but rather in the Middle-East. In all honesty, nobody even knows who the Cananites would be if they had some definition today. Additionally, the curse was not given by God. The curse was placed by Noah. A point of interest: There is a religious sect in the United States that is comprised of black people. This church believes that all people before Noah were black, and that when the curse on Canan was given, it was the curse of leprosy turning him white. Thus, all white people are the ones that are cursed. (reply to this comment)

From EP Thursday, April 03, 2003, 17:16 (Agree/Disagree?) At the risk of getting majorlly bashed for using this: Did you ever hear about that research that Apollos did in regards to just that. It was used in a a F publication and i think they called it "the sons of Ham". Apollos concluded that if indeed anyone was cursed it would have been Hams younger son and his decendents which would have excluded anyone else in Hams immediate family. Don't remember exactly but it was something like that..... (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Thursday, April 03, 2003, 18:27 (Agree/Disagree?) I know we all have this nice idea that Ham was black (thanks to the Life With Grandpa's), and as such was the father of all the black-skinned peoples, but assuming we even believe the Bible (which many of us don't), is there any proof for this theory?  How could Noah have had 3 sons of distinct colors?  Ham's son was named Canaan, who's descendants populated the area now known as Israel, before Joshua and his band of marauding Hebrews kicked them out.  Canann's brother Cush was the father of Nimrod, who founded the city of Babylon.  No one has ever thought of these people to be black.  Sorry Taz, but if anyone deserves to be verbally pummeled by Nan for espousing cult propaganda, it's you! (reply to this comment)

From mex Thursday, April 03, 2003, 11:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Are you for real? Racism is not a bad thing, "When Negroes had to sit in the back of the buses, or have separate rest rooms etc., where were the white people protesting against racism then?"  YES “Can I ask you since when has the word 'racist' meant to be an insult?” Well maybe when Hitler decided to exterminate millions of Jews because of their race, or when James Byrd was dragged to his death for the color of his skin or hard working Mexicans beat for being “spics” these are just a few examples that I can think of now that I would consider negative connotations to being a “white supremacist”.  But if you do not mind being associated with these people. I say good day to you. http://aztlan.net/lynched.htm http://aztlan.net/lynched.htm">http://aztlan.net/lynched.htm> http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/925/Black_man_dragged_to_death_in_Jasper_TX http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/925/Black_man_dragged_to_death_in_Jasper_TX">http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/925/Black_man_dragged_to_death_in_Jasper_TX>(reply to this comment)

From OpenlyRacist Friday, April 04, 2003, 14:48

from They are not all black! Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 07:59 (Agree/Disagree?) Taz, I understand where you are coming from. Some of my family members work in the Home Office and see first hand how some of these people get away with it- let me assure you, they do everything in their power to keep them out IF they are fakers!  But not all of them are black or Asian.  You get loads of Russians, and other Eastern Europeans... So I don't think it's fair to say that they are all black/Asian. I think London Lover is right, the trick is to move out of London, it's too damn crowded, I feel like I'm suffocating every day... Outta sight, outta mind and all that. Here is a question for you: Mum is white and English, dad is South American (Spanish descent).  My grandpa had his own business in the '70's and paid sir tax for years (90p out of every pound) when Old Labour were in power.  Mum came back to England with all her kids after leaving the cult and then divorced my dad.  Mum had no money and went on the social.  She fought to live in a decent area and to put us into education.  Her children are now educated and earning a decent living (well, most of us anyway!)  Four out of 6 of us are in the UK.  My question to you is, where do you think I belong? IMO, Mum had every right to claim the dole as my grandpa paid so much tax for all his working life- what do you think? And just to make things a little more complicated for you, my grandpa was Russian!  His family had to flee from Russia when he was 5 in 1918 because they were aristocracy and would've had their heads chopped off!I think the difference now is that people can get to and from places so much easier- hide in a lorry, hop on a plane, jump on a train.  In my great grandparent's day it was much more difficult to get from a to b.  Anyway, take it easy dude, take a chill pill and move out of London, and voting in the BNP is not the answer, most of them are just a load of ignorant thugs, and voting-in ignorant bigots to take control of local councils would just be a nightmare!     (reply to this comment)

From Taz Tuesday, April 01, 2003, 11:49 (Agree/Disagree?) Firstly, the only reason I say black or asian is to save time, if I were to speel off every nationality we have in this country I would be here all bleeding night! Your mother has every right to claim dole as she is white British.  Your grandfather, although an immigrant didn't sit on his arse waiting for us to supply him with all his needs, he went out and did something about it, so fair enough! Afar as where you belong,  I don't care, as long as you are working and paying taxes, making your own way in life that is fine!  Ah well, gotta get back to work to line some more migrants pockets, will expound if I have time... (reply to this comment)

from A London Lover Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 05:18 (Agree/Disagree?) I do understand your sentiment and I hear these stories on a daily basis around my East End watering holes, my only suggestion is get out of London and get some perspective! I spent 5 years straight in this town before I took a few trips and only then did I realise what "England" is really about. London is only a very small part of our heritage and lifestyle, as far a representation of the state of the nation as any other international hub i.e New York, Mexico City, Hong Kong etc. Might I refer you to the latest edition of The Lonely Planet Guide wich refers to Britain as "quite simply the most beautiful island on earth". It declares: "Britain is just getting better. The food is getting tastier, the cities more attractive and the rich cultural heritage more accessible". I like to agree with this as an incurable optimist but I'm sure you'd agree too if you were enjoying yourself! Take a tour of Suffolk and Cambridgeshire (with not a "coloured" in sight - (I'm being facetious)) or hit the coast of Cornwall for Easter holidays... As far as London goes, it is an acquired taste and going on 7 years I personally have yet to be dissapointed. Sure transport sucks! Sure I hate the throngs on the pavement as much as the next man! I changed my own situation and now ride a motorbike, do it and change your London lifestyle. Just don't get killed on the first day and blame me. - personally I'll be downgrading to a push cycle shortly cause I'm moving closer to work.   (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Thursday, April 10, 2003, 16:04 (Agree/Disagree?) What's a push cycle?(reply to this comment)

From A London Lover Friday, April 11, 2003, 11:59 (Agree/Disagree?) Push Bikes my error, I had a few at lunch before writing that. - In England bicycles are also called push bikes as opposed to motorbikes. (reply to this comment)

From mex Friday, April 11, 2003, 12:29 (Agree/Disagree?) It looks as if you had a few this morning as well. (reply to this comment)

From A London Lover Friday, April 11, 2003, 12:33 (Agree/Disagree?) How do you reckon?(reply to this comment)

From mex Friday, April 11, 2003, 12:45 (Agree/Disagree?) I've never been to England, but if a Bicycle is a Pushbike and a Pushbike is a motorbike what then is a regular Bicycle?   (reply to this comment)

from MGP Monday, March 31, 2003 - 14:03 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm surprised Jules hasnt banned you, oops...there goes my posting rights for another 3 months. Just posting one off wondering who you are, I'm in the UK too...drop me an email is very happy to hear inspiring nationalist testimonies. (reply to this comment)

from Taz Monday, March 31, 2003 - 07:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Joe H: Firstly, I have no need to “back-up” my “anecdotes” as they are all true, and worse happens daily! Secondly, as you said you DON’T know the situation so have no right to comment on what you don’t have a clue about. Who gives a hoot about what the CIA statistics show.  Yes, they may be correct but, that still does not give an accurate picture of the state London, Manchester, Birmingham, Oldham, Bradford and many other large cities in England.  The above-mentioned cities ARE overrun by ethnics!! Travel on a bus anywhere in London and I will guarantee that you will hear 5 or more languages being spoken – loudly at that, usually shouted down a mobile phone (I still have no idea how they afford them when they are constantly demanding more food, more housing, more benefits, all obviously paid for with our taxes) with no regard for anyone else sitting on the bus they chose to grace with their presence.  Fair enough if they are all tourists, they shouldn’t have to speak English, but try and go to a hospital, shop, pretty much anywhere in London and speak English and you will have to speak slowly, or in sign language so that the foreigner who has the nerve to call him/herself English can understand you! The 81% “English” that there are in England are not necessarily British by heritage, a large proportion would be naturalised Brits, because one of their ancestors, generations ago, was born here (not brought up here, or paid taxes here but just born here), that doesn’t mean that they are any more British than I am Jamaican!! Here’s another statistic you may enjoy is that 1/3 of all race-crimes the VICTIMS are white, and a large majority of black-on-white crimes are not even reported due to the police's hands being tied by the Racism Card which would be thrown in their faces by "Pillars of the Black community". Even that label pisses me off, if they are so proud to be British then why the hell do they insist on having their own "Communities" which are not integrated with White Culture? Talk about racist! The Blacks are more racists than any other people in this world! Maybe you should try to live on a salary that you would get in “Wainscoting or Rutland”!! K: In case you didn’t notice I put a note at the top of this article so that people like you would not read it and therefore not be offended by it.  But of course you insist on reading it and winding yourself up about the fact that I am proud to be British, you may call that Racist, but I call it being a Nationalist!  Do you live in London?  If not, then shut it, as you don’t have a clue what we have to put up with every day.  If you do, then wake up and see that life is NOT better with immigrants raping our country at every opportunity they are given!  Yes birth and death rates are decreasing but that still is no excuse to fill this country with uneducated people who, I repeat, DO NOT WORK! I cannot understand where you get the idea from that they are the saving grace of this country when you go past any dole office on a Tuesday morning and see the cue around the block, hardly a white person in sight.  I do apologise if the term White Person offends you as being racist, but is simply a fact of life that the areas that have a high percentage of Ethnic Minorities have higher crime rate, lower house prices, higher unemployment than areas which are of a white majority. I would NEVER in my life vote Liberal Democrats, what a wishy fucking washy party to support! They would only encourage an even larger influx of undesirables! Maybe you just love the feeling of walking down the street in the evening and avoiding any young black kid wearing their “gang” colours with their trousers around their thighs, fearing that he/she may take a shot at you, stab you, or set you on fire just for the fun of it! Well, that’s your opinion and as much I would like to say I admire it, I don’t!  (reply to this comment)

From DeMan Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 12:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Taz, some people just don't want to hear the truth. Joe is an immature dumb ass that has no real life experience and just takes all his knowledge from books and what he reads or hears. You are right. I don't give a fuck what the CIA has to say. EVERYONE that lives in London knows that crime is out of control due to the blacks that have come in and mug you for your mobile. You don't need stats to back it up, just go there. I mean I don't even see why this is up for debate. It's a known fact! (reply to this comment)

From DeMan Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 12:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Taz, some people just don't want to hear the truth. Joe is an immature dumb ass that has no real life experience and just takes all his knowledge from books and what he reads or hears. You are right. I don't give a fuck what the CIA has to say. EVERYONE that lives in London knows that crime is out of control due to the blacks that have come in and mug you for your mobile. You don't need stats to back it up, just go there. I mean I don't even see why this is up for debate. It's a known fact! (reply to this comment)

From k.. Friday, April 04, 2003, 09:20 (Agree/Disagree?) I can't answer to that... BUT yes, I did live in London and for 14 yrs visited ,and still do regularly. And other big cities!  Never have I felt more affraid of a coloured person than a white one.{I may be if I ever met you thou-what if I was with a "coloured" friend or even one off my many "coloured" brother's or sister's?} Have you not read the reports on police racism ? or about all the crime young whites do to people of colour, and their own elderly? The white kids in my view don't learn respect and grow up imitating their parents attitudes to see racism as positive. Oh YEAH we didn't mention football hooligans!  I stuck up for a girl once who's "best friend made a racist remark{ pure ly out of ignorance}, I asked her why as her coloured friend was with us..she replyed that she didn't think of her friend as black-(she was mixed race},and "she don't mind". And pigs don't shit. so I put it to her that it was very rude to do such a thing. how could she say she cared for her but not her feelings? Her friend had every right to feel proud of her different roots. If you have kids will you teach them to respect all humans or just rich,fat ignorant white males?  (reply to this comment)

From GreenDopeDoorDeala Sunday, June 01, 2003, 18:04 (Agree/Disagree?) There is a difference between a black and a nigger(reply to this comment)

From DeMan Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 12:30 (Agree/Disagree?) I hate to say this, but you are right. Just like there is a difference between white trash and white. (reply to this comment)

From Anthony Tuesday, April 01, 2003, 16:28 (Agree/Disagree?) TAZ: Blacks are more racists than any other people in this world! Anthony: According to you (Taz) is this true of all the blacks in the world, or just in England... or just in London for that matter? (reply to this comment)

From GreenDopeDoorDeala Sunday, June 01, 2003, 18:02 (Agree/Disagree?) Black people in the United States are the worst of them all. I have the utmost respect for the African Americans who make the most of being in this country and work hard and are successful. I am sorry to say though that that percentage of Blacks is under 7 percent. The United States prison system is full with over 60% blacks. Is that because cops are racist? NO! It is because Blacks are lazy and their mindset is so weak that they think they were born into a life of crime and cannot do anything about.  Blacks in this country are more racist than any other race. They think they can get away with being racist like calling someone a hick or a honky or white boy, but when someone says the nigger word, boy there is smoke in the fucking city. Their whole family will come after you. And you know what else, they are pussies they have to hunt in packs. When I went to school every black kid was silent until he was in a group of black kids then they would go around being loud as hell and picking on white kids. If they got hauled into the principals office they got away with it because they were poor black kids. I dont give a damn what their fucking ancestors went through. I didnt own a plantation in louisiana and neither did my ancestors. Nobody alive had anything to do with slavery so get over it and stop using it as an excuse to be a leech on society. Our government and the american people has paid a hundred times for allowing slavery to import all those black people. They are paying billions of dollars to keep them in jail and billions to pay for welfare and billions more to fight their cases for and against them in courts. About mexicans, I respect them as workers even more than I respect most whites. First generation mexicans that is. Of course you do have your mexican american cholos who cry the same racist/inequality bullshit as blacks. The mexicans that come here from mexico came here to work hard and make a life for themselves and there family and that is what the american dream is. The only thing I dont like about that is that those mexicans create a cheap work force which takes jobs from the people that were already in this country. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Sunday, June 01, 2003, 22:49 (Agree/Disagree?) Crime is an economic and gender related issue not a racial one.  For one, most (I said most) gang members are male, and two, they come form generally poor backgrounds.  It doesn't matter what skin color, you put the conditions right for crime, it will happen. The "black gangs" of the '70 and '80's have been replaced largely by latino gangs in the 90's and the present.  The police presence is much stronger in a black or latino neighborhood than in a hill-billy trailor park with their guns, confederate flags and meth pipes!  If police concentrate on a certain demographic, then of course most crime statistics will come from there.   I do believe that people should take responsibility for their own actions.  That includes any minority who would rather sit around and collect welfare while balming the "white-man" for putting him down.  The same goes for the "white man" who wants to sit around and bitch about all his rights being taken away and given to everyone else.  White men, especially, aren't losing anything, they just would rather bitch about it because that gives them an out for their own personal failures.  (reply to this comment)

From GreenDopeDoorDeala Monday, June 02, 2003, 22:21 (Agree/Disagree?) First off, your comment about gangs is right, if you referring to Los Angeles. The black gangs still out number any other ethnic gangs by thousands. In Chicago, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, New York, St.Louis, Houston and any other major city, black gangs are most prevelant. The largest street gang in this country is either the Black Disciples or the Gangster disciples. Both are black only gangs. "The police presence is much stronger in a black or latino neighborhood than in a hill-billy trailor park". This is very true and very neccesary. Don't tell me that you think the educated men and women that make these decisions are wrong. If these neighborhoods were left alone they would kill themselves off.  White kids do not roam around late at night (when they should be doing school work) selling drugs and shooting people. I think that there is something in black genes that spells criminal. It has nothing to do with cops picking on them ar any other liberal bullshit excuse. That fact is that if they tried they could claw their way out of the gutter and do something respectfull with themselves but they rufuse to look past the ghetto. They all think they are stuck in the ghetto and that they will live and die in the ghetto. What they need instead of the likes of Rev.Jesse Jackson, who is blaming all their problems on the oppresive white man, is someone to wake them all up or clean them all out. Never mind that. They are killing themselves off anyhoo.   (reply to this comment)

From Tim R Tuesday, June 03, 2003, 21:47 (Agree/Disagree?) GreenDoper, I don't know who you are, or what your problem is but I disagree with your attitude completely.  You say: "Don't tell me that you think the educated men and women that make these decisions are wrong" Yes GDDD, I believe that the self-centered, greedy, racist Sons-of-Bitches who set up this society were wrong. The fact that they were both educated and incorrect should not be surprising. The white race is no better or worse than any other race. Have you been to a trailer park recently? Or a redneck bar? If they took the violent, small-brained white people and put them in charge of society what do you think things would look like? A madhouse, that's what. This is true for ANY community or racial group. Jerks happen, that's just a fact of life, how well a society deals with it's jerks largely determines how good or bad that society is. (IMHO) What about the collapse of the USSR and the rise of crime that happened as a result? Sure they were communists, but they were also good white Aryan genetic stock, not that that made any difference when civilization fell apart. Any and all human races can act like a bunch of savages in the wrong enviroment. You say the biggest gangs in this country are black? What about the gang that ripped off Enron? What about the gang that sold weapons to Saddam to keep him in power, then went to war with him to destroy those weapons, then got a fat contract to rebuild the destruction they caused! (Also they will get a contract to sell them even more weapons, once they set up a new Iraqi army.) What about the gang who used the homeland security act to slip a law into our books that prohibits parents from seeking damages caused to their children from thimerosal, a UNNECESSARY preservative that they knew was dangerous but only added to the vaccines to make money? What about the politicans who took money to deliberately pervert justice, and thereby deny some poor disabled child their lawful compensation? Guess what, that gang is white! And they're a hell of a lot more evil than the worst bunch of Bloods or Crypts you could imagine. Face it, we've got no business looking down on anyone. You say: "..there is something in black genes that spells criminal." This is a load of bullshit. But just think for a moment, IF this was true then wouldn't this imply that there is something in white genes that spells imperialist, racist or barbarian? (The term Barbarian did come from OUR ancestors,BTW)   I don't believe so. I believe that like all races on Earth, white people have the potential to be constructive, help others and live as responsible, friendly neighbours with the rest of Humanity. I believe in the future of my race, but it has to be a future in which we treat others as equals, not subjects. Otherwise we'll end up getting overthrown and plundered just like all the other empires eventually did. I don't want to see that.  I don't know how most SGA's feel on this one, but I have become increasingly irritated at your posts, as well as Pharmaboy's and Taz's. I hope these kind of attitudes are not widespread in the ex-member community, I can hardly even read the NDN board anymore because of all the anti-semitism. No offence to the NDN Administrators, I know they don't like it either, and they have a lot of good stuff to say. I just can't stand being around that racist crap! "Can't we all just get along?" (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Tuesday, June 03, 2003, 22:57 (Agree/Disagree?) TimR:  It takes a real man to say what you just said, way to go!!!  And so intelligently too!!! (reply to this comment)

From Tim R Wednesday, June 04, 2003, 00:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Thanks Joyish, the admiration is mutual. ;-)(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Tuesday, June 03, 2003, 15:29 (Agree/Disagree?) You should be careful about making general statements refering to "criminal genes".  Hitler tried to make the same case about Jews being inferior because of their genetic makeup.  I do agree with you on some points, there are some people who just don't care about anything and will never make anything out of their life because their too busy blaming everything on everyone else.  Again, that's not a racial issue, this mindset is rampant among lower economic classes of people regardless of race.  If one race happens to have a majority of poverty level people due to a certain history, you can predict certain crime statistics.  Its economic, not racial.   Oh, and the only places in this country where black gang violence is prevalent is the north eastern part of the country.  The west and southern states see primarily latino gangs which represent the ethnicity with one of the highest poverty levels.  (reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Monday, June 02, 2003, 01:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Frmrjoyish, I fully agree with your comment right up to the end of the second-to-last sentence. The last sentence, in my opinion, is not quite justified. In many cases, the "white" people who complain about foreigners coming in, taking jobs that they should be elegible for and, on top of it, receiving government benifits, are hard-working, self-respecting individuals. I cannot speak of the US (as a matter of fact, because I am German, some Americans may view me as a "foreign intruder" come to steal his/her job) but I can speak of numerous developed European countries. The Damocles' Sword of being labeled a racist nation has driven many developed countries to pass laws that are lenient--to put it mildly--towards immigrants from under-developed countries. Take Germany, for instance. Although you do find many hard working immigrants from Turkey, statisically, the vast majority have moved to the West to live off of the government benifits. The German benefit system is so flawed, that there are many cases of immigrants pretending to live in Germany and receiving unemployment and child benefits while still residing and working in Turkey. Meanwhile, in order to finance the country's increasing foreign population, the government decides to make cutbacks on benefits to the elderly and unemployed German citizens (not to mention the fact that the job market favours those willing to work for minimum wage). The people complaining are not those who are "sitting around". They are the hard-working individuals who cannot for the life of them get a job with which to support their families because foreigners are not only willing to work for less due to favourable exchange rates for siphoning money to their home country, but also have priority by law. This fact alone could possibly be dealt with in some cases. Add to it the arrogance and haughtiness of many of the Turkish immigrants (which frankly, may well be a part of their culture) and you can understand why in the last World Cup Germany had to win against Korea. Had they lost and been forced to play Turkey for 3rd place, things would have gotten ugly no matter what the outcome. But back to the subject: The German government could very easily tighten it's laws in regards to it's immigrants, but only at the risk of unsettling relations with other countries (given the current political situation, however, I doubt this would make much of a difference :) ). All this to say that I believe the "white" man is losing something. Granted, there always has to be a "give and take" factor in any situation, but in matters of this sort, many of "white" people have gotten the raw end of the deal. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Monday, June 02, 2003, 17:00 (Agree/Disagree?) JW: You're talking about foreign immigrants, illegal or legal, and that's a whole different story than American citizens who just so happen to not be white.  I have my own issues with immigration but they mostly center around education.  I don't think the free education that we give out to foreigners in this country is fair.  I know a ton of them who keep all their money in overseas ccounts, work under the table for their friends, and then wind up getting their entire college paid for.  In the meantime, I make a half way decent living, try to do the right thing by not having babies and getting on welfare, and I'm goona come out with tens of thousands in student loans by the time I'm done with Grad school.  I have no choice because I couldn't afford college without loans.  Trust me, I get sooooo pissed off when I think about it!  I'm not against helping immigrants go to school, but, I think too many of them take huge advantage of it and that hurts people like me and you in the long run. As far as taking away jobs, most illegal immigrants work the crappy jobs that noone else wants, and they end up getting taken advantage of.  I know here in the mid-US they work on the farms for 16-18 hrs a day for around $2 and hour.  I don't know any Americans, white, black, whatever, who are "competing" with these people for jobs.  I know there are people who claim illegal immigrants contribute economically to society and all that, but what we put out in their healthcare, schooling, welfare, and not to mention border patrol way out does whatever little bit they contribute to the economy.  I'm really not against immigration, I love the fact that this country is very diverse as far as ethnicity goes, but I just don't like it being taken advantage of like it is now.  In this regard, you and every other American have every right to be pissed, but not if its directed at other Americans whose skin just happens to be a color other than white. (reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Monday, June 02, 2003, 23:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Again, I agree with you. But you are talking about the United States in particular. I'm sure you'll agree that the situation in the US is far different than that in Europe. The US is unique in that it is a meltingpot of most (if not all) of the world's nationalities. Being new to the US myself (I am not an American) I didn't think I should comment on the economical situation here. I (mis?)understood your original statements to be on a general level, hence my examples using the European scenario. I don't know how much you know of European cultures or if you've spent some time there, but, yes, many jobless people are in competition, so to speak, with foreigners (immigrants in this case). And the careers being targeted are not always minimum-wage jobs, either. I agree with you that frustrations on this issue should not be mingled with racism. However, in regards to "blacks" alone, I've found that the 5 years I spent in Africa have (unfortunately) given me a deeper insight into the mentality and work ethic of people both living there and originating from there. I do not consider myself racist. I do my best to treat everyone as an equal. And yet there are some unmistakable characteristics of certain races of which the mere mention on my part would immediately earn me the label of racist by the average person who is not internationally savvy. A fine line seperates the two, but I believe racism should not be confused with telling it like it is. (reply to this comment)

From pharmaboy Monday, April 07, 2003, 07:43 (Agree/Disagree?) It's not racism, it's resentment. Blacks biggest regret in life is having been born black. Blacks love our(white) culture, clothing, technology, etc..A rich black man will do his best to act, dress, speak & live a white..It's an age-old inferiority complex, shame! Sounds nasty, but it's true       (reply to this comment)

From Anthony Monday, April 07, 2003, 11:35 (Agree/Disagree?) It doesn't sound as nasty as you probably hoped it would, and furthermore, it isn't true.  In fact, what some white parents, in certain communities in this country, find alarming is that their kids dress... well, non-white, as you might say.  Anyway, this is a boring subject, but I must say your insight, which enables you to speak for all blacks, is truely amazing; must be a gift from knowing white Jesus so well. LOL! Take care. (reply to this comment)

From GreenDopeDoorDeala Sunday, June 01, 2003, 18:15 (Agree/Disagree?) If you would take a look at who designs those, "black clothes" you would find a milky white boy or girl. Behind almost every succesful Hip Hop clothes line, rap album or even sports teams you will see a milky white boy rolling in green and laughing at black. Black is cool now just because of the criminal way most young black males live. It is rebellion against the government and against parents and that always sets off trends. The 50's was the greasers, 60's 70's hippies, 80's punks and nowadays niggers. Young white kids dress that way and listen to those songs because their parents dont want them to. Not because Black is cool. (reply to this comment)

From Taz Monday, April 07, 2003, 12:45 (Agree/Disagree?) Anthony, presuming you are black, (or anyone else who may know) could you please explain one thing that has always puzzled me about the way many black kids (and white kids who just enjoy looking like prats) dress, is how on earth can they think they look good wearing, for example, their trousers under their butt cheeks, hair all twisted sticking up, caps in some rather unimaginable angles, gold jewelry until you can hardly see hands, ears, noses etc., fake nails that only girls who havent worked a day in their life could manage, 2-3 inches long, no kidding, and those stupid "gang colour" bandanas, flourecent suits, "paint splattered" jeans etc. I mean what is that all about!!?? Is there a reason for it, i.e. some deep pride in their roots or something that causes them to look like they've been dressed by a blind Graham Norton, or is it because they genuinely think they look cool/hard etc?  Please enlighten me!! (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Monday, April 07, 2003, 19:43 (Agree/Disagree?) So your animosity is fashion-based, not racist?(reply to this comment)

From Taz Tuesday, April 08, 2003, 06:07 (Agree/Disagree?) My animosity is NOT RACE or fashion based; I do not dislike any one colour/race of people just because they happen to be that colour/race. Here is what I despise: I despise anyone (white trash included) who takes the piss out of the system here in the UK; I despise anyone who feels they can come into this country and DEMAND that they be given better housing, food and more benefit than someone who was born and bred in this country.  I despise anyone who calls themselves "asylum seekers" when all they want is a free ride; I despise ignorant, arrogant, rude people with no manners, women who are 20+ stone who insist on standing on your feet/leaning their weight on you on a bus/tube/train even after repeatedly asking them to move; I despise people who shout down their mobile phones in some undistinguishable language with no regard for anyone else’s eardrums; I despise walking down a street and seeing signs with “Asian Families Support Group”, “Afro-Caribbean Social Services” etc, but not one single “British Single Mothers Foundation” or any other form of support specifically for White British people; I despise the fact that white people get refused jobs in the Public Community Sector because that month they haven’t hired enough people from an ethnic minority.  That is racism against white people; I despise the fact that if a black man gets beaten up by a group of white men it is a racially aggravated assault, if a white man gets beat up by a group of black men, it is just a fight; I despise the fact that this government is throwing away billions of pounds into this war and billions more into bringing more immigrants into this country when half the war bill could probably sort out at least the biggest problems in the NHS or the Underground; I despise the fact that when I go to a hospital I have to have a translator with me to understand the various types of broken English the nurses and even the doctors speak; I despise the fact that my local MP is a Pakistani (who has married a British woman and has only lived in this country for 3 years); I despise the fact that I have a mosque around the corner from my house and have to listen to the imam shouting his mouth off every morning.  Imagine if there was a church that had a loud speaker on at 5 in the morning, what an uproar there would be; Those are just a few of the things I despise about the state of London. (reply to this comment)

From night_raver Tuesday, April 06, 2004, 11:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Why don't you try to at least have a little uniformity in your argument? First your complaining about all the "foreigners" who dont work and lazily live off your taxes I despise anyone who calls themselves "asylum seekers" when all they want is a free ride; Fair enough, but then you go on to bash the immigrants who have made something of themselves because they're different from you I despise walking down a street and seeing signs with “Asian Families Support Group”, “Afro-Caribbean Social Services” etc, but not one single “British Single Mothers Foundation” or any other form of support specifically for White British people; Okay, so an Asian started a support group for Asian families -- if you want one for White Brits, get off yr lazy ass and start one. I despise the fact that when I go to a hospital I have to have a translator with me to understand the various types of broken English the nurses and even the doctors speak; Now we hate highly educated "foreigner" (non-white) professionals because they have a fucking accent? Dude, it takes 5 years (in the US at least) to become an RN, a doctor takes 4 yrs undergrad, 3 years med school, and then a required 3 years as a "resident" doctor, which means he works 20 hr shifts on a wage that barely pays the student loan interest and basic living expenses(there are doctors in my family, I know what I'm talking about). Then if you want to be a specialist (and a surprising majority of surgeries and treatments require a TEAM of specialists) you get to do another 3+ years as a resident doctor again in the specialty. Wouldn't you consider this to be one of those people who made something of themselves and are worthy of your praise? Add to that, your socialised medicine system doesn't pay doctors much, so I'd guess that the only reason you have Pakistani doctors is cuz White ones wont work for that pay. I despise the fact that my local MP is a Pakistani (who has married a British woman and has only lived in this country for 3 years); WTF, another professional, the guy was ELECTED! If you want a white, get out and vote, and if you think you're better than him, why dont you run for MP? Anyways, if non-whites have taken over your country, it certainly doesnt sound like your Parliament is taken over by a ruling majority of 12 non-white MPs. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Thursday, April 10, 2003, 16:00 (Agree/Disagree?) Sorry to get your goat like that buddy, the thing is, my animosity IS fashion-based.  I despise anyone who has no sense of style.  As Zorro once said, "There's no shame in being poor, only in being poorly-dressed!"  I think we should form a band of vigilantes called the SS (Sexy Shirts) and go around shooting people who wear baggy clothing, rugby shirts, hooded pullovers, leopard prints, baseball caps, team jerseys, or anything from Old Navy.  (reply to this comment)

From niniva. Wednesday, April 09, 2003, 10:15 (Agree/Disagree?) I follow politics and I know the MP you are talking about , he's amazing .His policies are great and he has not lived in this country for 3 yrs thats a blatent lie but mud sticks and I can't help but reply, it's more like 3 generations. We need more ethnic  and female MP's urgently.He also had the chance to be a proper star but gave it up to help the country he loves.Why can't we have more people like him. Be gratefull that there are people at all who look after you in hospital ,like I said the conservatives in a bid to keep the rich rich and the poor  poor , didn't exactly pour money into civi street,NHS schooling or public transport... so our trained people won't work for the NHS they migrate to the private sector[another brainwave]or abroad.We have to beg foriengers to come here the horrible thing is no one likes to admit it. Film to see "Dirty,pretty things" (reply to this comment)

From Taz Wednesday, April 09, 2003, 13:01 (Agree/Disagree?) All right smart ass, who is the MP I am talking about?  There are hundreds of Ethnic MP's.  Go on, surprise me! (reply to this comment)

From niniva. Thursday, April 10, 2003, 10:26 (Agree/Disagree?) There are 12 ethnic mp's.The one I think you are taking about is Piara s Khabra. Chill (reply to this comment)

From Lauren Sunday, April 06, 2003, 16:38 (Agree/Disagree?) Without getting mired in the subject of racism, for what it's worth Anthony, most of the Africans I came across in Africa proved to be more racist than any other people I've met in my life. They were racist against the dark in favor of the white. That is also, lighter skinned (brown) Africans racist against those of darker skin (black). (reply to this comment)

From Taz Thursday, April 03, 2003, 07:22 (Agree/Disagree?) I can't judge people from countries I haven't been to, so in respose I don't know what immigrants/blacks are like (for example) in America.  I am mostly talking about London, but I can't imagine them being a lot better anywhere else in Britain, they would probably be pretty much the same, and are worse in areas of large concentration of them, i.e Bradford or Oldham. (reply to this comment)

From mex Monday, March 31, 2003, 21:03 (Agree/Disagree?) "Who gives a hoot about what the CIA statistics show.  Yes, they may be correct but, that still does not give an accurate picture of the state London" Facts are meaningless, you can use facts to prove anything that's remotely true! Facts, schmacks.-Homer Sipmson (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Monday, March 31, 2003, 20:14 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes, you do need to back up your anecdotes!  I don't know you, so you telling me "they're true" isn't good enough.  They sound like urban legends to boot.  (reply to this comment)

From Alf Monday, March 31, 2003, 13:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Right on Taz, I live in the southeast of England and the immigrant vermin are everywhere. They think they own the place and that we owe them a living even though for the most part they're lazy unwashed criminals. I reckon it'll all kick off down here soon if the vermin keep coming and I look forward to the day when we show them we've had enough... Alf(for a whiter, brighter, better tomorrow) (reply to this comment)

From Vicky Monday, March 31, 2003, 13:32 (Agree/Disagree?) Taz,  first of all I'd like to say that I respect your right to have whatever opinion you want  about these issues and I'm not trying to change your mind.  Also, I've never lived in London or any of the towns that are so widely overrun with foreigners so perhaps you'll find my views slightly naive, however I feel your comments are too strongly worded and that perhaps you are speaking that way because of some anger or something that is causing you to be overly emphatic.  Perhaps you don't think there's anything wrong with racism and bigotry - I guess supporting the BNP is one clue - or maybe you feel so strongly about this subject that you have just become a bit gung-ho...I don't know.  I just think that the statement that "immigrants don't work" is a bit off - I mean, I can see what you're saying and I definitely agree with you that the government's immigration policy is totally stupid and will be the downfall of this country unless something is done about it,  but at the same time I feel it's a bit of a blanket statement. You seem to be disregarding all the people who do come here to genuinely build a better life for themselves and their children.  They just want the chance to live the way every decent person deserves to live and many of them work bloody hard to make something of their lives - Granted those are in a minority but still they don't deserve to be lumped in with all the "cheats" and/or criminals.   Surely you can't be saying that no one from any of the impoverished countries should ever try to do anything to make a reasonable life for their children?!(reply to this comment)

from Vicky Friday, March 28, 2003 - 20:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey Nick!  Hope you're well! I just wanted to say that although I agree with you about some of your points (And I can vouch for that Piggie story, I saw that in the paper! What a silly thing to do!) I feel that it would definitely be wrong to vote for the BNP.  While i agree completely that Britain is fast losing her proud history and heritage due to the ridiculous Political Correctness culture that has taken over here - Even to the point that during the Queen's Golden Jubilee Celebrations last year schools were actually told not to display decorations in the traditional red, white and blue because it didn't reflect the country's diversity - I do think that voting for an extreme party like that is dangerous.   We can't afford to bring our country even one step onto that slippery slope.  An interesting point on the whole ethnic minority issue is that in actuality it isn't usually the muslims or the other minorities who campaign for these ridiculous laws and policies but more often than not it's the whites.  This government is obsessed with PC.  For example, in some towns the council authorities have banned nativities and other Christian symbols being displayed because they claim it could be offensive to Muslims, but in fact Islamic leaders have come out publicly numerous times to state that this simply isn't the case.  It is not part of Islam to be offended by Christianity (Excluding of course the extremists who are always looking for a reason to cause trouble).  To be fair I have to say that obviously there are also some people who exploit their ethnic background and do use the race card - Some are almost professionals at it and do nothing much else but bring up compensation claims, but these are in a minority. I think ethnic diversity is a good thing if handled properly.  About Africa and the AIDS problem: Well, yes that sure is a disaster and needs drastic action.  It's also very complex.  I don't know if these issues will ever truly be solved and it's something that concerns me very much.  I wish that I could say that  I believe that the world is going to get better and better, more civilised and so on but unfortunately I do not.   I don't think it's ever going to happen. Remember the  "War to end all wars"...? What an unrealistic ideal.  (reply to this comment)

From Vicky Friday, March 28, 2003, 21:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Sorry!  I just realised Nick didn't write the above article!  I've got to get to bed! (And just for the record, Nick, I didn't think that really sounded like you! I'm still getting used to everyone's characters and opinions, so i hope you're not offended that I thought you wrote it!) It's 2:00 AM so goodnight all!(reply to this comment)

From Nick Monday, March 31, 2003, 16:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Thats OK luv, I was actually wondering why it was addressed to me :)(reply to this comment)

from Joe H Friday, March 28, 2003 - 14:54 (Agree/Disagree?) I would suggest you back up some of your anecdotes.  I haven't lived in the UK, and I have no idea what the situation is like, but I seriously doubt some of these stories are true.  The CIA confirms what K said about your country NOT being overrun by foreigners: "Ethnic Groups:  English 81.5%, Scottish 9.6%, Irish 2.4%, Welsh 1.9%, Ulster 1.8%,West Indian, Indian, Pakistani, and other 2.8% " http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.htmlhttp://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html">http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html href=" http://www.cia.gov">> (reply to this comment)

From Anamorph Friday, March 28, 2003, 18:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Although I do not agree with the above article, your stats on the 'Ethnic Groups in the UK', may be correct for the UK as a whole, but not England and Wales on their own. England and Wales have about 10% ethnic minorities, (not counting Welsh, Scots, etc) I suggest you look at the link below. This also does not include the 100,000 coming in as refugees every year. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=299&Pos=1&ColRank=2&Rank=144 http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=299&Pos=1&ColRank=2&Rank=144">http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=299&Pos=1&ColRank=2&Rank=144> I do NOT support the BNP! (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Friday, March 28, 2003, 18:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Thanks for that Anamorph, it's always good to see all sides of a debate.  I suspected that the urban areas of London would not reflect the 2% figure.  In any case, I think the point still stands, the immigrants are not likely putting a huge strain on the economy.  Taz's views may be a result of having lived in downtown London too long.  Maybe he should move to Wainscotting or Rutland.  (reply to this comment)

From Lauren Sunday, April 06, 2003, 16:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually, Joe, from having lived in other parts of Europe, it's very easy to see how the immigrants very well could be putting a strain on the economy. The conditions that Taz is describing are not too far different from Germany. If you look at Germany as whole, it would appear that the foreign invasion is not that great. Generally the ethnic minorities are centered in pockets -- mainly the big cities. Regardless of how many/few of them there are, in Germany the strain they are putting on the national budget is bringing down the social system. The government has been giving so much money to the ethnic minorities that come to Germany, live off of the social system and don't work, that there is no money left for health care or to provide for the native Germans who have been finding themselves down and out. In Germany, it is the Turks that have "caused the problem". I have nothing against immigrants who come to the country, work, are productive and pay their taxes. But I do have a big problem with those that just eek off of the social system sending the tax rate over 50% so that the average person can hardly provide for his/her family. It is unjust that those who are receiving social benefits drive around in luxury cars (not to mention the rude, completely antisocial behavior many of them display), live in very nice housing and have the best of everything, while hard-working Germans and hard-working immigrants can barely make ends meet while being taxed up the kazoo. The taxes we pay in the US are nothing compared to the taxes paid in Europe. Most of that tax money goes to support ethnic minorities who come to the country thinking "we owe it to them" & try to take over the place. Here's a thought: What happens when there's no money left to be had? What will happen to the ethnic minorities when the money stops being handed to them? I have no idea, myself. But I do know this: If they want to pick up and move back to the countries they came from, they have that option. The native German's on the other hand have no other home to go through. They are the ones left having to pick up the pieces when the economic cards come crashing down around their ears. (reply to this comment)

From Taz Monday, April 07, 2003, 08:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Right on Lauren!   (reply to this comment)

From Nick Friday, March 28, 2003, 18:45 (Agree/Disagree?) As it stands right now, the immigrant population is closer to 9%. I don't have a link for you right now, but am sure of that fact and will get one within the next day or 2. However that small percentage of immigrants put way more than 10% of the strain on the economy. It's not a debatable point. It is a plain and simple fact that because of the very lax immigration laws in the UK we have millions of immigrants landing on our shores seeking asylum. Why do you think that they cross the whole of Europe, bypassing all the other western countries and then take great risks to get through the Channel tunnel just to get to the UK? Even if it's not from obvious sources like free housing and welfare. It may come from the sky rocketing crime rate common among the gangs of Somalia thugs in London. Or the lose of property values when they over run a neighborhood. Ask any brit who lives there or has been there recently and they will tell you that fact. (reply to this comment)

From NR Wednesday, April 02, 2003, 08:23 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah, I've heard that the crime-rate in the UK has gone up considerably since they banned most firearms, guess it opened up the market for illegal E.European handguns. I guess Australia's not doing too well either, a friend of mine was visiting Sydney and a shootout erupted right outside a Chinese restuarant between them and cops, with full-auto guns and all like a movie. The media here has said that in both places the rate of armed assault and robbery has surpassed the U.S., but I guess it's what to expect when U make law-abiding citizens give up self-defense firearms and then hope that the criminals who all have illegal guns will suddenly get convicted by the holy blood-curdling word of godd and lay their guns at the altar. If any Somalian gang tried to burglarize my house, they'd be greeted at the door by my Berretta buddy and his 15 rounds of 9mm and if they really were curious, 8 rounds in the 12-gauge. (reply to this comment)

From Sara S. Wednesday, April 02, 2003, 11:44 (Agree/Disagree?) An older man (in his 60's) who was burgled many times over was jailed for 7 years for shooting a 16 yr old "pikey" here in England a few years back.  He was up for parole recently, and it was denied because he showed no remorse.  He claimed that he felt threatend by the robbers (there were 2 of them), but...according to the laws here, he still shouldn't have used a gun-all I can say is "Welcome to England"!(reply to this comment)

From Yes thats true! Friday, April 04, 2003, 14:41

From mex Wednesday, April 02, 2003, 11:54 (Agree/Disagree?) Welcome to life, crime happens. My place has been burglarized twice I would love to find the motherfuckers and shoot them, but guns are illegal here, I have moved to better neighborhood now and will hope it not happen again, but such is life. England is not the only place with crime or an unfair justice system, even the US is flawed, quit your goddam whinning.(reply to this comment)

from k Friday, March 28, 2003 - 08:55 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh my GOD,you racist,ignorant Twat.Well you said it all didn't you....about how stupid you are and your twisted logic.Its not sick when Cathrine eater Jones wants millions for her 'hardship'? also get your facts straight.Only 2% of the U.K is ethnic and you call that overrun? Statistics show that by the end of this century there won't be enough workers to look after all our old people.With death rates dropping and birthrates decreasing.You wanna blame the Africans for what we inflicted on them? u iz mad like Bush and all the extremists in the bible belt and current Baghdad and by the way Ali G is SATIRICAL.{sometimes the only way real information can be Broadcast}  Yes Blair seems to be going further to the Right so vote him out, instead vote Liberal Democrat.   (reply to this comment)

From Taz Monday, March 31, 2003, 08:51 (Agree/Disagree?) As Nick so rightly stated it is closer to 9% of the population, not 2%.  Greater London has over half of all people from Ethnic backgrounds living in Great Britain and 2/3 of all people from black origin. (reply to this comment)

from Jules Friday, March 28, 2003 - 07:59 (Agree/Disagree?) So true. People should stay where they are born. How dare anyone try to escape their past by emigrating to another country, leaving a religious cult or adopting another culture? Think of all the grants, government aid, health care, etc. that are spent on these losers who have no right to attempt anything more than the culture they were born into allowed them to have. People born in foreign countries, ethnic minorities or those born into alternative religious movements should just be grateful that they are free to be second class citizens in any other culture. They should accept that or go back to where they really belong. Look at what their culture taught them as children. Who really wants a bunch of freaks running around in our society? They should accept their shame for being born into such a culture or leave the free world to those that were born to it. How dare they demand the right to express their opinions or talk about their experiences. There is no room for awareness of issues that are outside the experience of the majority in our society and certainly none to be free from discrimination or misconceptions about foreign communities of origin. (reply to this comment)

From Drug Crazed Nazi Tuesday, April 01, 2003, 06:29 (Agree/Disagree?) Ooooh wow! Another award winning speech here on movingon.org, yessir I can tell you that much right now, hooah! You really were going for the bleeding heart thing weren't ya, although you really have no fuckin idea what your talking about, do you? This free world you speak of, which really isn't that free or great anyway, doesn't have unlimited space. I might be getting better for them but it's sure as hell getting worse for us. And right now the economic situation of most western countries is quite percarious right now. The bottom line is that they fucked up their countries. And thats just awful and we feel sorry for them, sure. And it isn't the fault of the individual foreigner but of the lack of democracy in their countries due to stifling religious restrictions in their culture or lack of industry or whatever the fuck happened. It doesn't matter, the point is none of it gives them the right to come and fuck up our society. It isn't a racial issue nor does it have anything to do with feeling superior to foreigners it's just that theres only so many people western countries can take care of. To take care of this problem long term you have too go to the root. And that's sorting things out back in the third world. Good fuckin luck to whoever tries that. (reply to this comment)

From Jules Tuesday, April 01, 2003, 15:11 (Agree/Disagree?) With the wealth of information available to anyone with a modem and a computer, there is really no excuse for this level of ignorance. Europe is facing a rather major crisis due to the aging population, the lack of skilled workers and declining birth rate. Facts: -United Nations projections indicate that between 1995 and 2050, the population of Japan and virtually all countries of Europe will most likely decline. In a number of cases, including Estonia, Bulgaria and Italy, countries would lose between one quarter and one third of their population. -In contrast, the population of the United States is projected to increase by almost a quarter. The population of the European Union, which in 1995 was larger than that of the United States by 105 million, in 2050, will become smaller by 18 million. -Population ageing will be pervasive, bringing the median age of population to historically unprecedented high levels. For instance, in Italy, the median age will rise from 41 years in 2000 to 53 years in 2050. The potential support ratio -- i.e., the number of persons of working age (15-64 years) per older person -- will often be halved, from 4 or 5 to 2. - The levels of migration needed to prevent population ageing are many times larger than the migration streams needed to prevent population decline. Maintaining potential support ratios would in all cases entail volumes of immigration entirely out of line with both past experience and reasonable expectations. http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2000/20000317.dev2234.doc.html Analysis of UK Population Trends “ Keeping the [1995 support] ratio would require 59.8 million migrants between 1995 and 2050, slightly more than one million migrants a year on average. The overall population would reach 136 million in 2050, of which 80 million (59 per cent) would be post-1995 migrants or their descendants… In absence of migration, the figures show that it would be necessary to raise the upper limit of the working-age to about 72 years in order to obtain in 2050 the same potential support ratio observed in 1995 in the United Kingdom, i.e. 4.1 persons of working-age per each older person past working-age.” http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/migration/uk.pdf Full Report can be found here: http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/migration/migration.htm These levels of immigration are acknowledged as politically impossible, but the fact remains that the support ratio of Europe is in trouble. Note that we will be the generation that must work into their 70, will have reduced health care and much less support from our governments. The Oxford Centre for Population Research has a number of working papers with critiques of the UN findings. Basically they seem to mostly conclude with “so what?”. There are other alternatives to immigration on this level, but none will do much to alleviate the strain that the aging population and diminishing work force will place on the UK and other countries of Europe . http://www.apsoc.ox.ac.uk/Oxpop/papers.htm For more information: http://www.brook.edu/dybdocroot/press/REVIEW/winter2002/prewitt.htm http://www.ilo.org/public/english/protection/migrant/new/rome1001.htm(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Thursday, April 03, 2003, 15:58 (Agree/Disagree?) Please tell me you don't think doubling or tripling the immigration rates is the answer?(reply to this comment)

From Jules Thursday, April 03, 2003, 18:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Joe, I'm just quoting the UN report based on European demographic projections. As the report states, there is no way that the required levels of immigration would be sustainable or possible politically anyhere, let alone Europe. To blame immigrants for a country's problems is ridiculous though. In Canada, we have a working model for high levels of immigration, low racial tension and crime and a prosperous economy. We recognise that our ecomony requires immigrants and try to balance attracting skilled workers with humanitarian support of refugees. A core component of Canadian domestic policy is multi-culturalism. It's not the US model of the "melting pot" but is described as a mosaic, and encourages ethnic minorities to celebrate their own culture rather than abandon it. (The film My Big Fat Greek Wedding was a autobiographical account of a Canadian Greek woman). The percentage of first generation immigrants here in Canada was 18.4% of the population in 2001, and the government plans to increase that by 1 percentage point every year. The city I live is 60% non-caucasian, and immigrants make up 40% of the population. It is claimed to be the most ethnically diverse city in the world. In 1999, the homicide rate here was 1.3 (compared with NYC at 9.1, Oklahoma City at 12.1, Chicago at 23.3, Washington DC at 45.5 and London at 2.4). The overall crime rate for 2001 was 5,343 per 100,000 (London in 2000 was 14,000). All in all, apart from the 8 months out of the year of brutal cold (it snowed today) and the occasional plague-like epidemic, it's a great place to live. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Thursday, April 03, 2003, 19:03 (Agree/Disagree?) So what's Canada doing right that the idiots in London and Washington are doing wrong?(reply to this comment)

From Taz Thursday, April 03, 2003, 08:06 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't give a hoot if the working population is declining, our generation won't get a pension, even after all the tax we pay, so what difference does it make to us? 59% immigrants you say, absolutely bloody disgraceful I say!  People moving from one country to another is not going to solve the problem of a declining population, as it will only decrease the population in the country from whence they came! No wonder the population in Europe is getting smaller, they are all here in the UK!  And breeding like rabbits to boot! (reply to this comment)

From Alf Thursday, April 03, 2003, 18:06 (Agree/Disagree?) We want jobs not immigrants... Fuck you Jules, do u live in England? If not stop pretending to know anything about it... Fuck the ethnics.. its time for the final war.. Alf (for a whiter, brighter, better tomorrow) (reply to this comment)

From lAf Thursday, April 03, 2003, 20:48 (Agree/Disagree?) So that's what you want, Alf, a job? (reply to this comment)

From Jules Thursday, April 03, 2003, 18:50 (Agree/Disagree?) Alf, out of curiosity, are you/your parents paying for your education? Did your parents pay taxes for any of the last 30 years to support the British ecomony and government? Apart from skin colour, what is the difference between you and a landed immigrant? (reply to this comment)

From Alf Saturday, April 05, 2003, 03:16 (Agree/Disagree?) The difference is I am a native Englishman and they are not. Duh. And education fees are means tested here, however I am compelled to take out a loan. I will finish my degree with a large debt. Also I work long hours for a wage that is heavily taxed to pay for fucking immigrants. Everyone is sick of the tired old 'we dont have enough skills/paki's/kebab shops' argument, the fact is there are too many dumped here and people are starting to get fed up. I'd like to say another big 'fuck you' again here Jules, you're talking rubbish. (reply to this comment)

From Jules Saturday, April 05, 2003, 03:47 (Agree/Disagree?) Nice try Alfie. Is or is not your education subsidized? The loan covers your living expenses, while the government, (of which you and your family have not paid into) pays your tuition. Of course "everyone" is sick of the old the we-don't-have-enough-skilled-workers-in-the-uk argument. Unfortunately, as I was trying to say in my inflammatory comment before, there is a rather vocal percentage of the UK which is rather racist. Personally I couldn't care less. I live in Canada, and while you are working at 75, I plan to be retired in some warm place with a nice pool boy. (reply to this comment)

From Alf Sunday, April 06, 2003, 08:59 (Agree/Disagree?) If you read my post again, you'll notice I mention that fees are 'means tested'. Most people whose parents are'nt loaded don't have to pay. And I wish that I did'nt have to 'pay into' the scum government. Unfortunately however, I do. I work, I pay tax and have done since I have been of working age. So again Jules, I reiterate the big 'fuck you'. ETHNICS OUT Alf (reply to this comment)

From MGP Saturday, April 05, 2003, 06:41 (Agree/Disagree?) So your calling us immigrants? Thats nerve! Like everyone else as soon as we reach working age we will be paying off taxes for the rest of our lives! - you cant answer to that! (reply to this comment)

From JulesIsPathetic Friday, April 04, 2003, 14:43

From mmm Thursday, April 03, 2003, 13:55 (Agree/Disagree?) STOP BOMBING THEIR COUNTRIES THEN!!!(reply to this comment)

From mex Thursday, April 03, 2003, 11:49 (Agree/Disagree?) My god you write, eat, sweat and shit stupidity, let us hope you never breed. (reply to this comment)

From tazyoucock Thursday, April 03, 2003, 10:04 (Agree/Disagree?) I completely detest your deeply stupid views.   One of the many serious contraditions emerging in the 'right' at the moment is that they are at the same time the most aggressive supporters and exporters of the 'laissez-faire' economic system (which is what keeps all those white boys in the City flush with sportscars and coke), but the most horrified by the consequences of globalising that model. i.e globalisation driven by white, western multi-national companies inevitably lead to ever-increasing economical migrants. It is de-stabilising economies around the world as we speak. But the problem lies not in the application or mere details of global capitalism but in one of its central doctrines - the maximum possible fluidity in the comodity of labour. This is all from John Gray - who was at the heart of the 'new right' think-tanks in 80s and is now a economics professor at LSE.  You can't have your cake and eat it, basically. Stop blaming 'them' for all the social problems (but also, I suspect, your own personal problems - are you really happy in your job? Fulfilling you, is it?) around you. I lived and worked in South London last year in an area with overwelming imigrant population and found it ok. But then I try not to fear people just because they are different to me, and so I don't project that fear and hatred around me. And I'm hard-headed enough to try to understand the roots of these problems instead of justifying my feelings with stupid, simplistic racism. Racism could have been correct! - it could have been that there exists a sub-species of human which is inferior (for you black people?). The only way to find out if there is or not is to scientifically study the problem. And guess what? -  the answer is that it is not possible to even define 'race' in any meaningful way, let alone discover that such and such a race is in any way inferior.  The West's superiority is based on culture not genetics. And is the result, as a major factor, of multi-culturism in the past (greece three-thousand years ago, europe in the renaissance). The exchange of ideas among different peoples is what drives us forward. dj (reply to this comment)

From Taz Monday, April 07, 2003, 13:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Firstly, I like the way you can't come up with anything original to say, so you do a "cut and paste" job. Secondly, I do not fear people just because they are "different" to me, I don't run a mile when I see any Ethnic, but there are many who would pick a fight for nothing, I have been harrassed, shouted at and threatened so many times by the hoards of black school kids who hang around the bus stop I take to go home at night making a nuisence of themselves that I don't find it amusing in the slightest.  And don't think, oh they are only kids, yeah, kids with knives  and guns and aren't afraid to use them. Thirdly, have you done a "scientific study" to prove that one race is not inferior to another?  It is bull shit that you cannot define race.  I (as a Caucasian) have a different biological/DNA make up than say an Oriental, or Afro-Carribean, hence I am a different species (as such).  I couldn't donate my blood to someone of a different heritage than myself, so basically, I am a different animal altogether. I am stating my opinion, you are stating yours.  This has nothing to do with my "personal problems", and yes, I am very happy in my job thank you, my personal life is very fulfilling and there is no problems in that aspect.  My problem is when I can't go out at night to my local shop because it is not safe, not living in a city where I would want to bring children up in.  So, take your bullshit attitude, go marry a Turk (or better yet, if you have a teenage daughter, take her to the Med on holiday and let her marry some filthy man twice her age, so that he can live in this country sucking our taxes dry) and bring more immigrants into this country.  Stick to the non-controvertial areas of this site and you may find people you agree with. (reply to this comment)

From niniva. Wednesday, April 09, 2003, 09:58 (Agree/Disagree?) My brother is flattered that you thought his writing was a cut n paste job. He has a maths degree and is a writer and philosophical thinker and therefore only had to remember that the party you support has alot of inconsistancies, which he pointed out. but you could really look it up yourself. As an atheist I certainly don't believe that the blacks were cursed-it's like the booggee monster I'm glad it's not real. Evidence is pointing to the fact that all humans came from Africa and the white man is decended from them. Our skin evolved  as we did not need such thick skin, without the scorching sun and as the land mass broke apart to form diferant continants. You can see today that the paler the skin colour, the older it ages.I have another brother writing his Dissertation on morality and Genetics and I'm afraid we do agree with what Jules said above. I'm glad you are happy in your job and it seems to me your racism is just something you focus on as by what you said above your pet hates arn't even conected. I have lived in this country north and south. I see that problem everywhere. [in a white area "those naughty kids" are just as bad] The problem dosn't start cause of colour or race, as I've found kids don't even see the differance in the opposite sex untill they are 3 or 4.Let alone their different coloured skin. That comes latter with the parents positive or negative attitude and societies brainwashing. When I moved to where I am now , I used to walk to the shops and the ussual crowd of pre-pupesant boys stand around smoking making remarks or being down right offensive. They hang around 1] as they are bored. 2] they don't have parents who give a toss or they are too busy working to pay the bills.  3] they are just at that age. But they do grow out of it if given the chances.The boys moved on and the next lot and so on. the boys who were rude now smile and whisle.The first time one shouted "get yer tits out" I merely replied that he wouldnt know what to do with them anyways-but not confrontational. I teach my son, who is growing older and therefore needs to handle things on his own in the future, stick up for yourself and don't be alarmed, bully's never really win. If they feel your frightened they'll pounce. Here's a story,which is not an isolated experience. One day my son and I were outside doing the front garden[he was 5 yrs] and some of the local lot were walking to and from the park. About 5 came walking past our house and in a tone of voice that was supposed to make my son feel [geeky] they asked what he was doing. He pipes up as hes cutting the hedge,in a proud voice he says "i'm helping my mum" The boys scoffed[6- 15yr old boys] 10 mins later, 3 cam walking past again and as they were watching I asked if the'd like to join in, I said that I'd buy us all an ice-cream if we did a good job. Well all afternoon the 5 of us worked in the summer sun,and we enjoyed our Ice-creams from the van,when the last of the leaves were put into the bag. Also how long have you lived in the U.K?as I'm sure the dirty old British men go abroad and find themselves a slave wife from Asia,not the other way round. If you are talking about arranged marrages,where young girls go back to india and marry someone from their culture whats wrong with that? by the sounds of it you wouldn't marry her due to racism so what choice does she have? I had a friend at school who had to go back to India to marry, she didn't bring him here. I personally think she should have stayed[India is part of the old empire therefore she has every right] but thats just another right wing conservativevalue I abhor. Can you tell me what writers and thinkers  and policies you think are good about the conservatives? Than we can have a proper debate. (reply to this comment)

From Taz Thursday, April 10, 2003, 05:32 (Agree/Disagree?) Let your brother speak for himself.  "...This is all from John Gray - who was at the heart of the 'new right' think-tanks in 80s and is now a economics professor at LSE".  What was stated in his ramblings is blatantly a quote from someone else, unless of course he is John Gray. So what if he has a maths degree?  Or is a writer, or "philosophical thinker"?  David Berg was all those as well! And his opinion wasn't any more informed than the rest of us. I never said that I believed black men were cursed, I was merely stating a question that if that is what THEY believe I find it difficult to understand. Have you done anything worthwhile in your life or was that comment a chance to spiel off what your brothers have accomplished?  I am not interested in what they do for a living. I am not talking about "get your tits out" jibes, you fool!! I am talking about real threats. What did your "life with grandpa" style story have to do with the article? Why should my pet hates be connected?  I don’t sit here all day stewing about them either, this was an article I wrote to voice my opinions, as I believe I have a right to.  I wouldn’t support a political party unless I knew what their stances were. I am not talking about arranged marriages, men going off to Thailand etc., do you read the papers?  What about that Turk who was with that 15 year old girl.  Have you ever been to Turkey (for example)?  Chat to any waiters, bar staff etc and a good portion of them will tell you how they are married to English girls and are moving to the UK, asking how the divorce system works, ie will they have to take responsibility for the English bride's children when they divorce her etc.  Were you one of the "shepherd in the F?  Your attitude stinks of self-righteous-holier-than-thou bull shit! If you and your family are so clever, like you seem to think you are, then for starters sort out your spelling! Before I will talk to you about politics I want to know that it is even worth my time, debating with an illiterate. (reply to this comment)

From Anthony Thursday, April 10, 2003, 11:31 (Agree/Disagree?) TAZ: David Berg was all those as well! ANTHONY: Are you serious?  Whoever told you that was pulling your bullocks. (reply to this comment)

From Taz Thursday, April 10, 2003, 12:17 (Agree/Disagree?) I know that, but my point was that she is calling her brother all those things, but that doesn't make them true. I mean, what exactly is the point of a "philosophical thinker"  besides to try and explain life away. (reply to this comment)

From Anthony Thursday, April 10, 2003, 12:31 (Agree/Disagree?) I know, I know, I see your point; I was just tossing around.(reply to this comment)

From mex Monday, April 07, 2003, 20:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Jule's  could we start a new feature on this site called the "Assclown Award"? we could vote on it like the TP without being redirected. I would like to give the first award to Taz.   http://www.lamer.net/assclown.jpg">>(reply to this comment)

From Jules Monday, April 07, 2003, 16:05 (Agree/Disagree?) "Genetics undermines the whole concept that humanity is composed of 'races'—pure and static groups that are significantly different from one another. Genetics has proven otherwise by tracing human ancestry, as it is inscribed on DNA." http://web.mit.edu/racescience/in_media/what_dna_says_about_human/ http://web.mit.edu/racescience/in_media/what_dna_says_about_human/">http://web.mit.edu/racescience/in_media/what_dna_says_about_human/> All people living today can trace their genetic heritage back to one woman. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/neanderthals/mtdna.html http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/neanderthals/mtdna.html">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/neanderthals/mtdna.html> "As it turns out, scientists say, the human species is so evolutionarily young, and its migratory patterns so wide, restless and rococo, that it has simply not had a chance to divide itself into separate biological groups or "races" in any but the most superficial ways. "Race is a social concept, not a scientific one," said Dr. J. Craig Venter, head of the Celera Genomics Corporation in Rockville, Md. "We all evolved in the last 100,000 years from the same small number of tribes that migrated out of Africa and colonized the world." Dr. Venter and scientists at the National Institutes of Health recently announced that they had put together a draft of the entire sequence of the human genome, and the researchers had unanimously declared, there is only one race -- the human race. ... 'If you ask what percentage of your genes is reflected in your external appearance, the basis by which we talk about race, the answer seems to be in the range of .01 percent,' said Dr. Harold P. Freeman, the chief executive, president and director of surgery at North General Hospital in Manhattan, who has studied the issue of biology and race. 'This is a very, very minimal reflection of your genetic makeup.' http://www.uwec.edu/Academic/Curric/majstos/p390/Articles/082200sci-genetics-race.html http://www.uwec.edu/Academic/Curric/majstos/p390/Articles/082200sci-genetics-race.html">http://www.uwec.edu/Academic/Curric/majstos/p390/Articles/082200sci-genetics-race.html>(reply to this comment)

From pitstop Monday, April 07, 2003, 17:26 (Agree/Disagree?) There is let's say aprox. .01 percent of our genes reflected in appearance. But your infered conclusion from this is fallacious.You seem to say that this must be the only difference between our genes. The large variance in the .01 visible percent of genes between the races, is indicative of aprox. the same amount of variance in the 99.99 percent not seen. Obviously most genetic information is the same, thats what makes each race part of the species. But, did you know that certain bacteria and humans there can be a 95% overlap in genetic material? And few people would say there was little difference between bacteria and humans. The same is true abou the human races, but to a lesser extent of course. This can be shown, in numerous traits. Why do you think medical studies (i.e. drug studies), are race specific? As for one "human race"? --That is a human species, there are human races, just like there are dog breeds, and large differences between them. Exactly what those differences are, can be clear or debatable, but they certainly exist. And, if enough time and isolation was given to these races, speciation would undoubtedly occur.(reply to this comment)

From Jules Monday, April 07, 2003, 19:20 (Agree/Disagree?) I didn't conclude anything at all in the above comment. Everything I posted was a quotation. You however are concluding that the differences in physical appearance between "races" is somehow proof that there must be other substantial differences in other parts of our DNA. While I only have a very basic knowledge of genetics, some of the people I know really are experts, and the conclusion reached by genomic authorities is that there is no significant difference in any other part of our DNA. The only difference is in appearance and that is the 0.01% of our genetic makeup referred to. I’d be interested to see where you got your information on bacteria and humans sharing a 95% genetic overlap. The number is actually more like 200 genes (of 30,000) that we share with bacteria. http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,41869,00.html"> face=Arial>http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,41869,00.html face=Arial> According to Joseph H. Nadeau, a leading geneticist: "Race is a cultural, historical, social, and political concept, which has little basis in genetics or science. At the DNA level, we're virtually indistinguishable from each other." http://www.incyte.com/insidegenomics/int/int/int_int_0016/int_int_0016_15.shtml"> face=Arial>http://www.incyte.com/insidegenomics/int/int/int_int_0016/int_int_0016_15.shtml face=Arial> The reason for ethnicity tracking in clinical trials and pharmaceutical studies is because many diseases are passed down genetically. Sickle cell anemia is often found in people of African and Mediterranean descent, while cystic fibrosis is found in people of northern European descent. This has to do with hereditary mutations in a specific gene that is passed down through generations. (Like the hemophilia found in the royal blood line of Europe, or the high number of cases of Huntington's disease in western Ohio and southern Indiana where one of the original pioneering families carried the disease). These type of assumptions are often inaccurate though and not specific enough to be of any of value in terms of treating individual patients. Some pharmaceutical companies hope to one day deliver personalized prescriptions based on an individual's DNA: pharmacogenetic medicine. http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/05/02/racial.profiling/"> face=Arial>http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/05/02/racial.profiling/ face=Arial> http://www.racesci.org/in_media/nyt_dec2002_genecensus.htm"> face=Arial>http://www.racesci.org/in_media/nyt_dec2002_genecensus.htm face=Arial>   With any species, the more diverse the gene pool, the stronger the evolutionary advantage of the resulting population. Diversity is essential to fighting disease and to overcome changes in the environment. Isolationism is literally your own funeral. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Monday, April 07, 2003, 19:41 (Agree/Disagree?) Good job Jules, more arguments here should be fact-based and well-cited like this!(reply to this comment)

From mex Monday, April 07, 2003, 16:30 (Agree/Disagree?) Thank you Jules, I was at a complete loss for words. "With the wealth of information available to anyone with a modem and a computer, there is really no excuse for [Taz's] this level of ignorance." (reply to this comment)

From k. Thursday, April 03, 2003, 08:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Places like london are run on immigrant labour doing all the dirty unseen jobs that English people won't do. And we don't pay them enough.(reply to this comment)

From Enough Friday, April 04, 2003, 14:45