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Getting On : Education
Question: Education vs. Work Experience | from Jules - Monday, July 05, 2004
accessed 2304 times The discussion between Dani and FrmrJoyish raised an interesting question regarding education versus work experience. I have been wondering about this personally for some time and have posed the question to a number of people but haven’t found a fully satisfactory answer yet. Here is the question: What, in your opinion is it better to focus on when you first leave, education or work experience? Which should have a higher priority?
My personal plan was to learn a marketable skill, one that could support me adequately and then work my way through school. This seemed like a good idea at the time, and I was able to do both for a few years, but other commitments and priorities have taken precedent over education now and for the sake of my sanity I had to make some difficult choices. If I had focused solely on education and taken out a student loan to finance my studies, I would have graduated by now, but would not be as far along in my career. I did not have any safety net or support when I left so I was also very concerned about being able to take to care of myself no matter what. Being self-sufficient still remains high on my priority list. I often wonder if I made the right choice or what the best route actually is.
I personally absolutely agree with FmrJoyish that there is nothing like education to counteract the ignorance and nonsense we were indoctrinated with since birth. It can also do wonders for someone’s self-esteem. While what I am asking is more a question of the practicality of either route, do these issues play a large enough role to be a deciding factor?
Which route did you take when you left? Why? Do you regret it or do you think you made the right choice? Did you have relatives, friends or outside support in the path you took? If yes, would your decision have been different without that support? What, in your opinion, are the pros and cons to either route? What would you recommend to people leaving now or thinking about pursuing education? |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from Jules
Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 20:01
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Thank you to everyone for your answers on this topic. They were very interesting to read and I appreciate your perspectives.
One thing that struck me when reading the comments posted here is how the question of "what do you WANT to do?" came up again and again. When I left the group all those years ago, I didn't think I had many choices at all. I assumed I could never go into science or academia or medicine or law or anything that required years of study and for which I had no preparation. I was barely 20 and it seems ironic now that I thought my life was over then, but I really did think that. I really though my choices were very limited and there were many things I could never ever achieve.
One of the things I personally appreciate the most about this web site is knowing the incredible things so many of us have accomplished. No one but someone who has been there themselves really understands the incredible tenacity and courage it has taken those of you who are living your dream to beat the odds and to succeed. I am in awe of the capacity you had to see beyond what was force fed us and to say "fuck it, I am going to do the impossible, because I want to and I can", and you did. Just knowing that it actually can be done and that someone, just like me, did it, opens the horizons and for that I thank you.
When Auty and I first talked about creating a web site like this (in 1998) we discussed this very thing. We wanted to hear success stories. We wanted to know about the people that didn't self-destruct but despite everything going against them, actually did succeed. I think we actually tentatively named the section "boastings".
The jury in my head is still out as to whether it is better in general to go to school or to jump into a career when you first leave, but I think, as so many people said, if you really want something, then you CAN achieve it, whatever path you take. I know some incredible stories of people who have started their own companies, become top salesmen, or done incredibly well in IT (where they don't have time to spend all day on here), etc. and are doing amazingly well.
While sometimes a few of the people who have moved closer to their dreams (whether in academia or financial success) than the rest of us sometimes rub it in a bit, and yes, it can be annoying, my sincere admiration to all of you for having done it. You are what make our free and democratic societies so great. We can come here with nothing and forge a wonderful life for ourselves with nothing more than intelligence, determination and perseverance. My thanks as well for letting the rest of us stragglers know that despite everything, it can be done.
You totally rock.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from Christy
Monday, July 12, 2004 - 18:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
I no longer have my history of education textbooks around (must have resold them), but from what I can remember, there are two prevailing theories out there. The older theory is that higher education is for developing "beautiful souls". The liberal arts requirements for college freshmen and sophmores can be traced back to this theory. Basically by studying foreign languages, history, art, etc., you become a more cultured and enlightened person. The more modern theory upholds the utility of education and this is behind more practical degrees and academic paths.
To answer your question, I think it might help to take a little time after leaving to get away from the mind sets established by the group. These mind sets influenced me a lot when deciding on my major. I felt like I should do something meaningful and that I should choose a "helping profession". I also wanted the security of knowing I'd be able to find a job once I'd completed my degree. I was already enrolled in college when I left TF and I completed my degree within four years after I left. I was old enough to be declared financially independent and could therefore qualify for financial aid without parental assistance nor contributions. I wanted a practical degree but now sometimes I wonder if I chose the right path. While I'm happy with my current job, I'm pretty sure I'll have a career change in a few years from now.
On the pro side of going to college, while in many jobs people can work their way up without a degree, that piece of paper can affect your job security. For example, after leaving TF, one of my relatives has sucessfully worked his way up in his company. All of those working around or under him have MBAs and by now they all assume that he does as well. He didn't lie to get his current job--he worked his way up from the bottom. Yet, if he were to loose his job, as many of his colleages recently have due to downsizing, it would be nearly impossible for him to get an equitable job elsewhere, as his lack of higher education would be revealed upon review. Hopefully this will never happen, but the concern is out there.
(reply to this comment)
| from Auty
Friday, July 09, 2004 - 16:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
I tend to agree with most folks who stated that it depends on what they want in life. A college education is not for everyone, there are some who have been able to use their talents (or perhaps just the hard learned life in TF) and have been able to excel in many professions. However, if one is seeking a profession that requires knowledge to ensure the safety of others (doctor, nurse etc) or if one would like to pursue a career in a higher paying job (ex. lawyer) or a lower paying job (teacher) an education is not only necessary but required. I think the question that needs to be asked when a decision has been made to leave TF is not only one of education, but of survival. College will always be here, but a good meal, a car and a place to live take priority over an education. When leaving TF it took me over 9 years to feel emotionally and financially ready to attempt going to college. Now that I have been in school for several years, my regret is that I did not make the decision several years ago to start my education.
(reply to this comment)
| from itsxena2u
Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 19:12
 (Agree/Disagree?)
"If I had focused solely on education and taken out a student loan to finance my studies, I would have graduated by now, but would not be as far along in my career."
My question is this: How long did it take you to get further along in your carreer considering you spent the first several years as a call girl?
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |  From itsxena2u
Sunday, July 11, 2004, 21:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
Since I already apologized for bringing up your past, I'd like to ask you a question. Why did my question bother you? Why did you consider it offensive? I had the impression that your first job lasted several before you changed jobs. Or was it something that you did for a short while just to get on your feet financially until you were able to get something better? (such as what you have now) You've been out of TF for about 9 years or so, right? How long did it take you to become a Senior Systems Analyst?
I apologized because you seemed offended not because I thought what I said was wrong. I don't know why some people are making such a big deal about it. I never meant to be derogatory or disparage you as you so put it. My only concern about this type of lifestyle as I had mentioned before was the risk of contracting diseases and being exposed to drugs and alcohol among many other negative things. I understand that if one is in a desperate situation and they really have no other choice but to do it to survive. I honestly believe this was your case as you explained. You did, however pursue a much better career later on in life.
I may make a few enemies here but I will be honest and tell you how I feel about it. I DO NOT believe a woman should sell her body for money if she has a choice not to. If there are other alternatives or opportunities in her path I strongly believe she should take them. Again this is not refering to your case Jules.
I dissapoints me to hear that some women if given the opportunity to sell their bodies or had a nice body would do so! WHY?? I abhored FFing and everything it stood for. Many of you hated FFing as well but then turn around and think prostitution or stripping isn't such a bad thing. OK, so does that mean that FFing was wrong because it was done in a cult or for "saving souls"??? Remember I'm referring to women who have a choice here. When I left TF I swore I was never going to be like them again, ever! Whether its for God or for money its still the same damn thing. Sometimes we have to do the unthinkable when there is no other alternative. I've even done some things in my life that I wasn't proud of. But I've seen many young, inteligent girls who could really do something with their lives and just throw it all away to make quick money. I've even seen married women with children stripping for a living! And its not because their men can't make enogh money. They do it because they like the attention and the money. They do it because they like it.
Coyote commented "If you're a moralist who sees a marriage contract and a pledge of love as legitimizing and sanctifying female economic dependency on males, it's time to call off your old tired ethics." I am a moralist alright but I never married my husband so I could be economically dependent on him. I made more money than my husband, I supported the drunk bastard. The only reason I stayed with him for as long as I did was because I loved him so much I kept hoping it would all go away and things would get better for the sake of the children. But it didn't. They were hurt even more! Now if I was blessed with a rich husband I would not mind depending on him for financial support if that meant I could spend more time with my children. A wife depending on her husband for financial support is entirely different. She depends on him to take care of her financially just as he depends on her to take care of his needs and the needs of his children. Unless you are referring to sluts like Ana Nicole Smith, then you are right.
I am not as eloquent as frmjoyish. Granted, I am not as inteligent as Exister and not as witty as Joe H. I do not always express myself as well as others. My intentions are not to hurt anyone's feelings just to express how I feel. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Thursday, July 15, 2004, 22:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
To start with what annoyed me about your “question” was that you didn’t say what you meant. There is nothing (and I probably shouldn’t give the Joe H’s fodder, but hey we are what we are) that annoys me more than snideness.
It is apparent that you have an issue with women who work in the sex trade and it is also apparent that this is personal for you. Why, I don’t know, and again it is none of my business, but it is apparent that your disdain and repulsion for these women is there. For you to address that issue, directly, I can respect. What irritates me beyond belief is when something is snidely commented on. I can’t stand it when a comment is made and everyone knows what is implied, but the person making the insinuations has the option to bat their eyelashes (and yes I am an unapologetic feminist, but it is mostly females who choose to do this) and say, “oh my, that’s not what I meant at all” if things don’t work out. I think this is cowardly and chicken and it totally winds me up. Perhaps I misunderstood you, but it really walked and sounded like a duck.
You said in your comment above “I apologized because you seemed offended not because I thought what I said was wrong.” I can respect that much more than your previous comment. In my real life, with my real friends, all I ask is that they are genuine with me. What irritates me is a snide remark with no follow through. It reminded me so much of the passive aggression that permeated dialogue in TF. I was annoyed much more than offended, for the reasons stated here and above.
In regards to your “question” that I really don’t think you care about the answer to, it took me two years to become a project manager (but remember this was the mid nineties, when the dot com boom was about to peak). For the record, IMO, if you want to get into anything business related and you don’t know what the hell you are doing, I totally recommend middle management. Even project management in the IT industry is not related to technical IT knowledge at all. I managed million dollar projects with no clue about what it took to do any of the technical side.
I learned a lot from the developers I worked with and began to be more involved in the design and conceptual process. About a year ago in my present company I got tired of the glass ceiling and especially the politics, Given all the other responsibilities in my life, I am much happier being a programmer in my day job. (reply to this comment) |
| | From itsxena2u
Saturday, July 10, 2004, 10:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
I apologise Jules. I don't have anything against you. I agree that your life is not mine or anyone's else's business but yours. My comment regarding your previous life was inapropriate and totally uncalled for.
What I probably should've asked is how many years did it take for you be become a Senior Systems Analyst, and if you feel that one can learn more from experience and "on the job training" than education only? I've seen first hand from working in the industrial field that many companies prefer skilled crafts/tradesmen that have obtained their knowledge from on the job training or both.
Returning to the subject of my judgemental comment (which again I apologise for). I know some people consider themselves lucky having been able to escape much sooner than others even though it may have made their lives more difficult at first, they have reaped the benefits of hard work, an education and a good career. There are also those like myself who have recently left but have not experienced nearly the amount of hardships as you or others such as yourself have. So my question is, do people who leave TF later on have it easier because they are older and more capable of taking care of themselves and their families than those who left as teenagers and had to do anything to make ends meet and survive? My younger sister is 27 and she left in '95 or '96 at the age of 18. She managed to get a H.S. diploma through a "contact" TF had before she left. She had no previous work experience except for ballooning and childcare. She arrived in TX with no money, car or relatives to help her. She was able to stay with some friends and get a job as a waitress, then a bartender. However I know girls that have just left TF and have chosen their path in the sex industry.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is, it doesn't matter when or how old a person is when they leave TF that decides what kind of life they are going to live. It all depends on the individual, the circumstances and the situation they are in. We all have to do what we can to survive whether we like it or not, or whether or not it is immoral. I think you have grown to be a very strong and mature woman. I feel like you have learned a great deal from your experiences and despite your hardships you have become a beautiful person. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Vicky
Friday, July 16, 2004, 04:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
No, I missed it yet again!!! I even had the TV on ready to watch it, and just as the programme started we had visitors and I had to switch into hostess mode... Oh well, never mind... I did see a little of it the first time it was on, but it's not the same as watching the whole process.
I'll have to catch it next time : )(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From COYOTE
Friday, July 09, 2004, 06:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
What is it that makes some women disparage working girls, as though the act of sexually servicing men for cash is less honorable than any other role women play or work they do that depends on male largesse? Unless you're a female separatist and find yourself thriving in a social economy where males are totally irrelevant, snide remarks about prostitution seem hypocritical to me. If you're a moralist who sees a marriage contract and a pledge of love as legitimizing and sanctifying female economic dependency on males, it's time to call off your old tired ethics. (reply to this comment) |
| | from exister
Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 09:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
Aside from the cultural enrichment provided by a college education it has been clearly demonstrated that the monetary value of a college degree is many hundreds of thousands of dollars over one's lifetime. So for those focused solely on the money this should provide motivation enough to go to school. The point that many people miss out in is that it usually takes money to make money and college is no exception.
When I got out of the cult I tried to get a student loan to go to school directly, but I was told that I needed my destitute parent's signature, which of course wasn't gonna happen. I asked when I would be able to get a loan without their signature and I was told that I could do so when I turned 24 or became a veteran of the military. I figured I could become a veteran by age 22 so I did that. The best part of course is that once I became a veteran I didn't need the stupid loan becuase I had the GI Bill to pay my tuition. In any case they also have tuition reimbursement while you are active so I stayed in 7 years and took all my freshamn courses and catch-up math classes.
Amazingly enough even people who have the GI Bill often don't use it because they can't figure out a way to come up with their tuition up front at the beginning of the semester (it gets reimbursed to them during the semester). I guess the bottom line is that there are two types of people in the world: wage slaves and investors, and the former seldom become the latter.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from Shackled
Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 18:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
“What, in your opinion is it better to focus on when you first leave, education or work experience? Which should have a higher priority?”
I think the biggest factors are: age when leaving TF, country you reside in, what are the possibilities and financial status. If someone is under 20 I would definitely suggest going for an education, regardless of having the cash or not. Over 20, with or without children, really depends on the individuals desires and future/career plans. What may be best for someone won’t be for someone else.
I’ve noticed that the majority of us that left from Japan didn’t go for an education right off. I can only think of a few (they had support from relatives) and a few more that went a few years after leaving TF. Where as, most that left in the US are in college or have completed some kind of higher education. There are also those who were lucky and had relatives to fund the bill. My father willingly and unwisely cut ties with his relatives upon the request of that damned MO letter.
“Which route did you take when you left? Why?”
“Do you regret it or do you think you made the right choice?”
“Did you have relatives, friends or outside support in the path you took?”
When I left TF I was already working 2 jobs. My route was just finding an apartment close to both jobs and moving. If I had cash or relatives that would have supported me I would have certainly moved to the US for a higher education. But I didn’t have any of this and I did what I had to with what I had. Do I regret it? I regret a lot of things about my life but I made the best choices I possibly could.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From itsxena2u
Sunday, July 11, 2004, 18:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
I know exactly what you're going through. I was married for 9 years to a serious alcoholic. I was working 50-60 hours a week working nights and weekends while I watched my two toddlers during the day and tried to get my husband a job. We were living in a small apartment, sleeping and eating on the floor for several months because we had barely enough money for the rent and utilities. My husband was drunk/hungover so much of the time that he could never get a job, much less keep one! He would take the little money we had and go to the store and buy a 24 pack and finish it in one night. He was killing his liver and started having heart problems.
I know I mentioned in another article that I strongly feel that we are all capable of making more than minimum wage (and I still think so) but the way the economy is now and the increasing numbers of unemployed workers, we sometimes have to take what we can get. I am so proud of you. Don't let anyone get you down because of your lack of education. I probably have the same amount as you do dear. Many of us are in the same boat. We live day by day, moment by moment, hoping that the future will eventually become brighter.(reply to this comment) |
| | From myself
Saturday, July 10, 2004, 10:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
ha ha ha !! You are so funny. mer I agree, I believe that you must have both, personally it is better to have experience then a degree, I am in collage and some of this crap is such bull! But in this world a degree is important because when it comes down to the wire and they have to fire someone thats what they look at, or if your a handicap it can beneifit as well because they don't want you to sue them...which is a good thing. And I have seen things where if one is a minority, one can get away with a hell of a lot more then anyone else!! At least where I work. To think of it I am more of a foreinger myself as I have only been in America 7 yrs. You work so hard, and I don't know how you do it?? you never complain either. It is tempting to sell your body but I don't think my hubby would like it?? only if they were handsome and rich! No one should look down on hard working uneducated people, Like my father he works his ass off with two jobs to feed his family and I am more pround to have him as a father vs some snobby educated yahoo! I am not saying a education is bad, only if you put pople who don't have one down.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jerseygirl
Thursday, July 08, 2004, 13:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
I have an idea people. Awhile back when someone on this site mentioned that he was existing on ramen to finish school, I started thinking about my own ramen days (not that they're even over because hey--I actually like the stuff)and I had a small plan that never really got any further than my head at the time. Anyways..... what if there is a situation, and by using cheeks as an example I am not trying to single her out in any way,in which a couple extra bucks could really mean the difference between sanity and sinking? I'm talking about some of us who have been in a pretty dark place where maybe all we needed to make the difference was a hot meal or a good nights rest. There are a lot of people on this site and I think that no matter our differences in opinion we can certainly all agree that hearing something like this invokes some corner of our long lost humanitarian side to want to help.
My tiny baby idea is this: what if we were each to send only one dollar(the idea being a dollar but to those that have more, maybe they would give more) to a certain person or situation as a gift to just encourage them. If even half of the users here participated it would mean at least a good enough amount that again, for example ,may enable cheeks to be able to take a few days off work and take herself and her family out to eat or something of the like. I know this sounds like a handout and believe me I know how proud we all are but I just feel that when I hear about people struggling ,and I know EXACTLY what it's like, I want to do something!!!!! Does anyone see how this might work or am I really just channeling the wrong spirits here? Anyways, hang in there cheeks.(reply to this comment) |
| | From sarafina
Saturday, July 10, 2004, 19:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
I've asked about doing this a few times and so have a few others. It is a great Idea but the answer I got was that the problem in doing this is setting it up, where to send the money and mostly how to know who you are really sending it to and if they are legit. You would almost have to know each person personally. I suggested maybe setting it up through the SPF and having people apply for help but then the question was who would be honest enough and trust worthy to handle the money and what kind of process would need to be set up in order to apply and a general address or p.o box would need to be set up so as not to have to post the person personal home address. It just all seemed to get to complicated which is why I've resorted to just helping people I knew personally or a few that have written me.
Maybe a treasurer or accountant for SPF needs to be appointed if we are to use it like a real charity/foundation. I know things are being worked on perhaps this in one of them. It would be nice to hear any updates on SPF if there are any Jules as I think many are kind of lost as to what progress is happening and how it can be of assistance. I think there are many that want to help any any way they can but just don't know how.=)(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Sunday, July 11, 2004, 11:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sarafina,
Thanks for your comment on this. At the time when you asked me about a fund to support people who needed it, SPF had not been incorporated yet and I was not comfortable with the idea of people sending me money for this purpose, mostly for the reasons that you stated here, as well as it being yet another thing I would be personally responsible for and I was pretty overextended at the time.
Lauren, who is the president of SPF, is working on an update as to our progress and what is happening. Right now we have been mostly focusing on our tax exemption application and creating our project plans and goals. I have to say that a project on this scale is much more challenging than I personally ever thought it would be (especially given that we all have day jobs and some of us are also students), and if it were not for the tirelessness, committment and expertise of people that have been part of the team and helped to get us through this far, I don't know that it would have materialized.
I am heading up the programs division of SPF, so I will write more on this soon, but one of the goals for this fiscal year is to establish some grassroots projects. Basically what this would entail is finding out from people about what ideas you have and what you personally would like to do on these issues. We can then provide whatever support we can to you and help you to create project plans and provide funding for your project. For example, perhaps you would like to see young parents get support, and figuring out how to do this, what specifically that entails and providing access to community professionals who can help is something we can provide assistance with. This is off topic on this particular article but I really do want to know what you think, what you would like to do, what you would need and how we can help, so I will write something in more detail soon.
We are working on an SPF web site, which will outline all the details of the goals so far, who the staff and directors are and what has been and is happening. It is important to differentiate between MovingOn and SPF as they are very different, although I am personally involved in both, so we have been hesitant to post too many details on here right now.
There is so so much that can be done and it's very exciting and such an honour to be part of something that has the potential to be so significant to the millions of children around the world that are raised in similar situations to ours. (reply to this comment) |
| | From sarafina
Monday, July 12, 2004, 09:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thanks for the reply Jules,
It's good to hear things are coming along. There have been a few Ideas I've been tossing around and yes one of them is help for single mothers who have left with their kids and are struggling. There are about 4 that I know personally that live out here. I know this isn't the appropriate thread to continue this discussion on so eventually I'll email you about it when I can present it with more of a solution that might work and can involve those on this site who want to help out even in the smallest way.
Thanks for all the work you've been putting in to it. I know many of you have been working hard on this project.(reply to this comment) |
| | From SPF Accounting & Finance
Saturday, July 10, 2004, 22:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sorry to bust in on this, it's probably better for Jules to say, but SPF does already have both: an individual in Finance (ie. the Treasurer, has custody of assets and disburses assets with proper authorisation), and an accountant who does the record-keeping and verifies that all disbursements were authorised.
You wrote "then the question was who would be honest enough and trust worthy to handle the money and what kind of process would need to be set up in order to apply and a general address or p.o box would need to be set up so as not to have to post the person personal home address."
This is a legitimate concern and it's handled by seperating duties so no one person handles a cash authorisation, disbursement, and record-keeping, there's always someone to check what the others are doing.
Things are just starting out and I am actually setting up Quickbooks tonight, but I just wanted to mention that there is and will be proper internal control for cash disbursements at SPF.
And yes, SPF is a "real foundation" (lol), as it has 501(c)3 status from the IRS. I currently do the accounting at another NFP that has several projects funded by the Dept of Education and the Dept of Commerce, both of which have quite stringent internal control requirements, we have a Financial Statement audit once a year and several regulatory audits during the year, so I have an okay knowledge of what other NFPs do to ensure that money gets where it's supposed to go and being able to prove it.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From sarafina
Sunday, July 11, 2004, 09:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
"And yes, SPF is a "real foundation" (lol)" Umm, I never said it wasn't or asked, I know it is a real foundation, I know it has a 501 I was saying that maybe if people knew more about it they could start USING it like it should be used so I don't know what the "lol" was for.Thanks for the info it's good to know it's making progress. Maybe the staff names of spf could be posted (such as yours) it would be nice to know whos involved.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Sunday, July 11, 2004, 11:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
Regarding posting all the names of the people involved, this will happen very soon (I promise). I believe transparency is essential to a successful and ethical non profit, so this definitely will occur. We have not wanted to start using SPF yet until we have tax exempt status, and have worked out what the goals specifically are and how to go about them, so that is what we have been waiting for and working on.
Something I personally have recently come to the realization about is that we will need fulltime salaried staff to actually make this work successfully. I really didn't want to go this route, because I wanted to keep overhead costs as low as was feasible and to put everything back into what we are doing. Since none of us are independently wealthy though, I recently realized that to put the time and committment into this that a project like this requires, we will need to make it our fulltime job at some point.
As I think I said somewhere before, everyone involved is a professional in their field and I have been in awe of the level of expertise and knowledge that is there. The financial division is extremely well qualified and they are amazing, as are the people in the other areas as well. This current phase of setting up is almost complete, and what has been established is something I believe will be long lasting, comprehensive and completely change the landscape for children like us in the future. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Jerseygirl
Sunday, July 11, 2004, 14:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
I want to write this little two cents of mine with, of course, all due respect to those working on SPF. When I commented about the idea of sending money to people it was out of a feeling of wanting to do something simple and immediate to help alleviate pressure for someone I felt could really use it. It was in simple terms such as each person putting a dollar into an envelope, licking a 35 cent stamp and sending it. I share in a lot of the concerns sarafina mentioned and as such had kind of hoped that this type of help would not become a big “project” or need huge overhead etc. I felt very helpless as to the amount I myself would be able to help but I also felt that there were others who shared my feelings and that together maybe it would be enough. So many times I wonder how many more of my friends or people I know of are going to sink before help arrives and I wasn't able to do enough myself.
When I first heard about the foundation I was given the impression that the beneficiaries would be only those people just leaving the cult now and also young teens wanting to leave but having no resources to do so. It seems it is a whole different thing from what I originally understood and which sounds promising. I also have to admit that while I understand that my opinion is probably but as grass on the issues of SPF, I do have a lot of doubt as to what you are really talking about when you say how great a potential this project has. Maybe it’s just my severe lack of hope in any type of organized charity and in people who claim they will make such a big difference and then it seems without fail they go on to become just as any other charity: bogged down in their own foundation so much that they aren’t really accomplishing what they initially set out to do. (Hey—it sounds like I grew up in a lying cult!! Whad’ya know?)
I guess the big question here is: will the SPF be funded by those of us who are able to contribute or is this a millionaire’s charity? Assuming it’s the latter, is that what you mean when you say that those involved will eventually need to be fulltime with salaries? These must be some of the issues you are planning to address so I don’t expect any immediate answers but I’m feeling curiously free(damn that last vodka tonic) to share my doubts and feelings on the subject as it is Sunday afternoon and I have some time on my hands. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From exister
Friday, July 09, 2004, 08:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
It's kind of a toss up for me as well.
One the one hand I agree that it would be nice to help out our fellow exers who are struggling. On the flip side though I know from first hand experience that living in a crack house and having to talk down the guy that's standing at your door with a knife builds character.
The reasonable empathic side of me wants to help them out, but the angry calloused side reminds me that most of these people were feverishly praying against me while I was struggling and says, "Fuck'em, cut'em loose and let them sink or swim."
I've never been known to deny someone a hot meal or a stiff drink when they need it though...(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jerseygirl
Friday, July 09, 2004, 11:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yes I completely agree actually. Remember the two frogs in the can of cream. But I also think that some frogs just always seem to have much shorter legs or not enough physical stamina ,sort of like the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak, so that even if they are trying it is simply overwhelming. This would be the "weaker bretheren" in the cult, but out of the cult I can accept that some people are simply tougher than others and I have no problem aknowledging that and lending a hand to someone worthy of it.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Vicky
Thursday, July 08, 2004, 11:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
I feel for you, though I am not going to insult you by presuming to know the half of what you have been through and continue to go through. I really do hope that you realise that I (and most probably many others) think that you have a LOT to be proud of, if only in managing to raise your children while juggling such a demanding workload as well as the difficulties presented by your particular situation. I hope this doesn't come across as pity or patronization, as I realise that sometimes my comments don't convey my sentiments in as accurate a fashion as I would like. I know that it must be very very hard for you - I think of my own frustration at times when I feel that my life is slipping away while I desperately try to catch up, and I am sure that those emotions are multiplied many times over when one is faced with the problems you have described. You have made me feel very lucky today. I hope that things get better for you soon, and all the best to your husband as well. Again, I hope this comment won't annoy you, I can be hopelessly sappy at times.
(reply to this comment) |
| | from
Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 09:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
I've only been out of the Family for about 9 months. One of the main reasons for leaving was to get an education, among other things. The main trouble for me is that i come from a small EU country, and i dont speak the language. I've been working for several months now at an english kindergarten and have been taking language courses, but dont see myself learning the language well enough to study, any time in the near future.
I've been thinking of moving to England, but have been getting alot of cold water doused on my plans... the main reason being that for non nationals its ridiculously expensive to study in the UK.
Is there anyone who has info on this? How easy is it for an EU national to live and study in England? Any advice or information u can give will be appreciated
(reply to this comment)
| From vane
Thursday, July 08, 2004, 03:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
I studied in London, although I am not from England, I have a German passport. If you come from another EU country you have the same rights as the English students except that you don't get a student loan. Which believe me, its good because it saves you from getting into huge debt. The university fees is the worst part of it I graduated last year and then the fees were @ 1300 pounds a year in London. However, there is a fund which you can apply to and if you can prove that you are supporting yourself the state pays for it. You have to fill out a ton of forms but I got 100% funding for my fees for all 3 years. So its worth it. I would go for it in your situation if your willing to work hard for three years its definitely doable. I received no other money from anywhere else and I had two part-time jobs. One for the uni, and the other in a bar. If you need more information send me an e.mail and maybe we can chat on the phone. hope this helped...(reply to this comment) |
| | from Regi
Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 06:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
The decision to pursue a full-time education depends entirely on the individual and what they want out of life. But from my own experience, I highly recommend that young people leaving the family consider going to school full-time. One of the reasons I left TF was to get an education (beside my disgust with the insanity and lack of accountability). I also had the same concerns about self-sufficiency, etc. so I when I first enrolled, I chose to major in business. I thought it would be a “no-lose” degree for making a living. After a semester, I realized that it was not where my heart was at. I had no interest in taking accounting and finance classes but I loved language and literature. So I ended up with a degree in French and Slavic Studies with thoughts in the back of my head that I would study comparative literature in graduate school. Although I later realized that I should probably give up the comp lit idea in favor of a degree that I could actually get a job with at the master’s level, I have absolutely no regrets that I chose to get a liberal arts degree. It opened my mind to different ways of thinking and I am a better person for it. I also have no regrets that I took out student loans to do it. I am extremely risk-averse and I hate debt but a professor advised me once that education is the best thing I could invest in because it is an investment in myself and no matter what no one can take it away from me. I am a dirt poor student, but it does not stop me from having a good time and I feel so much better that I chose this path. It's made me who I am.
(reply to this comment)
| From Regi
Tuesday, July 06, 2004, 06:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
I should mention that it took me almost two years to begin college after I left TF. I left while living in Russia and stayed there for two years working for a nonprofit. I moved to the US with the explicit goal of attending college. I had applied from Russia and went straight the the college campus when I arrived in the US.(reply to this comment) |
| | from Vicky
Monday, July 05, 2004 - 11:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
I guess this is pretty obvious so no brownie points to me, but it depends on what you want to do, doesn't it? Some careers require higher education, others are more 'work your way up' orientated... I want to be an Educational Psychologist, so there's really no way around it but to study. That said, I absolutely love studying, it's a huge pleasure to me - I enjoy going in every day and learning something new about something I am infinitely interested in, so for that reason I am willing to live with the disadvantages of not being able to work, such as making do with less money and not having much of a social life, etc, etc.
My overall opinion is that an education is hugely important. I think that my advice would be to go for the education option, particularly if you don't have children. If I had not been a parent when I left TF I would have chosen a weightier subject to study, but as it stands I have chosen a practical option and something that was quite 'safe' in that I already knew I was good at it and that I could ultimately succeed in that field, and also it's not quite as demanding - I am not superwoman and I wanted to be able to keep my children as number one priority. I would urge anyone who is childless and has the option of studying to consider what they really, really want to do, and if it's something that requires higher education all I can say is "Go for it, now while you can do it so much more easily"! While it may be a pain to be broke and unable to live the high life, it's a lot harder to make do with less when you have children as well, plus it's that little bit harder to concentrate on the educational aspect of your life.
(reply to this comment)
| From Lois
Friday, July 09, 2004, 02:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
The book below might be helpful in trying to answer the question about the pros and cons to either route and other related questions.
Csikszentmihalyi, M. & Schneider (2000) Becoming Adult How Teenagers Prepare for the World of Work New York: Basic books
Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly
Are American teenagers getting the preparation they need to be ready for tomorrow's jobs? In a five-year study, psychologist and bestselling author Csikszentmihalyi (Flow; The Evolving Self; etc.) and sociologist Schneider (The Ambitious Generation) collected data on more than 1,000 middle- and high-school students across the country. Their findings: "The average teenager has quite positive educational, occupational and lifestyle expectations." About 80% expect to complete four years of college, and many hope for careers in the professionsAa pattern that holds across race, ethnic, class and gender lines; indeed, expectations among African-American, Hispanic and low-income youth tend to be higher than those of affluent whites. More troubling, though, is that teenagers generally lack realistic knowledge about their preferred careers, and schools don't necessarily help them develop the skills and attitudes that Csikszentmihalyi and Schneider believe will best prepare them for the rapidly changing workplace. Adolescents, they argue, need a solid foundation in math and science. They also need opportunities to experience "intense concentration in any activity that requires skill and discipline," and that teaches them to enjoy challenge. Individual projects and community internships, among other programs, provide such experiences, yet sadly, they are seldom available to lower-income families. The authors interpret their data clearly, discuss the importance of parental guidance and role modeling from other adults, and offer sensible recommendations for educational policy. Sure to be of major importance to educators and social scientists, this study will also benefit parents and general readers.
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