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Getting On : Career
System Survival | from Ben321 - Tuesday, March 09, 2004
accessed 2138 times Personally I have left TF twice (getting pretty good at it!) and am now getting by on my own. I want to share a few experiences and viewpoints with the hope that this can be of some help to others. My last breakout (or rather sneak-out) was very un-dramatic, I simply moved out of one home without moving into another. Is it a fact that a lot of us who leave TF and go to the system, find it quite a shock and quite difficult? We start having to face pressures we never had before, deal with people who are not like exactly "yielded to God", we get lied to, cheated, and stomped on, in short treated like shit. We become depressed, angry, and bitter, and we need something to place the blame on. In our pride, we can't put the blame on our present circumstances, surroundings, or fate, for this is where our own will brought us. So the only place we can put our blame is on TF, or our parents, or the "bad leaders" who were so mean to us, or the victor camps we attended, and the list goes on and on..........
I was confronted with the above just recently, and you know what? I actually think that sometimes a little self-psychoanalysis can be helpful ......
Now that I have your attention, let's talk about the present realities surrounding us. Personally I have left TF twice (getting pretty good at it!) and am now getting by on my own. I want to share a few experiences and viewpoints with the hope that this can be of some help to others. My last breakout (or rather sneak-out) was very un-dramatic, I simply moved out of one home without moving into another. No big deal. I had friends (ex members) to move in with and with skills acquired up through the years it was not too hard to get a job. Surviving in the system is not exactly rocket science. Very little is actually required; you come, do your work and go home and so on and so on until you retire. (Sounds complicated?).
The choices are many and they range from beggar (hey, I am fully trained already!) to bank robbing (might provide you with free board and lodging for a considerable period of time!). You can be a burger flipper (also fully educated!) or hold a desk job (I can type and know how to use a PC), learn a trade (didn't I help build that shed with uncle so and so without hitting my thumb more than twice?), start a legitimate business (quite a challenge, especially the 'legitimate' part, ha!) or study and get a so-called higher education (a bit of work, but a possibility, even if you are not 18 any longer). In the system, many people go for the latter as it is the commonly accepted thing to do and also believed by many to give you a better (read: higher paid) and more comfortable job than the 'others' have; this is of course unless you have caught the very common "reveihcanu" virus, (the most severe outbreaks have occurred in the westen and northern hemisphere), which causes an intense lack of motivation and desire to do much of anything at all! ('unachiever' spelt backwards.....)
The downside of the h.e. (higher education) option is that it requires years of study where you might incur a sizable debt which normally has to be repaid, and then you start looking for a job which can prove to be practically non-existent. Please don't misunderstand me, a lot of people get jobs and some get good jobs, but the fat cat salaries are in the minority and a lot of people with h.e. have to settle for jobs where their years of study have no bearing. Before being fully convinced that you actually need heaps more education and training than you have got, it might be wise to see if there are jobs for which you are already fully or at least partly qualified. Don't forget, YOU are not the judge of this! Let the person who does the hiring do that! Most of us tend to underestimate ourselves and our training and abilities. So, give it your best shot and let others tell you where you stand. They will have no reason to lie to you or about you unless you it is the person next in line for the position you are seeking!
I have in the past walked in off the street and been hired on the spot. Sometimes there is nothing like a personal presence. I realize that this does not always happen (the part with being hired right off the bat), but in some cases it does and if it in the past has worked for some people (like me) it may work for you. With your inescapable background as a sales person where the main product has been YOU, your acquired ability to sell yourself cannot be overestimated. You should not minimize this talent, but rather use it and profit from it. A lot of other qualities, some of which are underdeveloped or rare if not all but nonexistent out here, are nevertheless highly valued by people in power and position and will give you the edge in many more situations than you are aware of now. The bottom line is don't knock it, use it! Or like someone else succinctly said, "Don't piss on yourself, there's enough other people ready and willing to do so!"
In spite of any lack of system recognized diplomas and certificates, some they may recognize other they may not, I must admit I really don't know the situation here, but whatever paper you submit, they will look at it and even if it is not one they have seen before, they may want to hire you anyway based on a total assessment. For a kindergarten teacher or even primary school teacher the paperwork is most likely not that important if they are hard up for teachers. I would say that a lot of the people who have left TF probably are qualified teachers who could step right into almost any teaching position in public or private schools. From my personal experience, I went to public school, and had just finished high school, when they phoned me and had me work as a replacement for my old teacher in high school when he was sick. And by all means; let us not forget childcare! Few of us realize that the toddlers in TF actually provided almost all of us with a complete education as childcare teachers and helpers, nannies or what have you. Kindergarten teachers are always in demand, I am not saying it is the easiest job in the world, but it will keep you alive and on you toes while you find your feet.
Or maybe you know how to sing or play the guitar or the piano or another popular instrument? Then are tons of musicians out there who have survived for years on a lot less talent and charisma than you probably have. Do you know how to act? --- What do you mean, you say, "I have been acting up for years!" Well, there's another open door. You like performing and dancing? Well, there must be tons of jobs available. Check it out! Or maybe you like to argue? --- You say, "You must be kidding, that is my second name!" Well, then politics is the way to go, that is all they ever do! Then we have the field of NGOs, (non govt orgs) a world in many ways similar to the one we come from, but with government backing. Can you beat that? Here they even offer you a salary. The demands are less strict and the goals and purposes are not that high and lofty either, but may provide an avenue and a way to go for the ones who want to help feed the hungry and help the needy. For the sake of completing the picture, just so no one should feel slighted or left out, we have the churches and their charities. The churches are a pretty sickening case, especially with our background in mind, I mean if we are able to find fault with TF, how do you think the Churches come out? But, anyway, for the ones who can hold their noses for a while and stand an unseen level of hypocrisy and lukewarmness, the churches could provide a place for some to work for a while and at the same time doing a bit of good. Not highly paid jobs, but they must exist.
All this to say; it all depends on your circumstances, talents and abilities and desires (some of these we can control and some you obviously can't) what is the best and most viable option for YOU. I am just trying to widen and expand the box here as sometimes a system job can look like a straight jacket with only one size and color available. While what we have been told about system jobs seem to hold true, the world is a pretty big place and has quite a lot of variety to offer. One advantage that most people raised or trained in TF has, is they speak the same language as $$ does! This puts you in a position so that even if you are in a tight spot financially you can get by with a TESOL teaching job of some kind. These jobs are abundant in many countries all over the world where you may find yourself. A job like this will not make you rich, but it will enable you to survive and also save up travel funds so that you can get to Egypt or Little Egypt, I mean Europe, or another affluent country like Canada, Oz or NZ.
Once in a fatter place your chances of a higher paying job is better and the road to all kinds of education sponsored by a benevolent and generous govt is more or less wide open. Many may have received more schooling and training in TF than they realize and all they would need to do is pass the appropriate exams and they are ready for the grinder. Others whose scholastics are somewhat lacking may have to sit down and do some serious study for awhile before they catch up. Sounds too much like work? Or too embarrassing? -BS! And not true either! There is no shame in this, the world is full of training and retraining programs for people who for one reason or another need to be retooled or simply given an education they for one reason or another do not have yet. In this day and age with immigrants and refugees and people moving for this reason and that reason from one part of the world to another, no one looks down on someone who is simply trying to get their act together and live a normal life. This can all be a bit both humiliating and intimidating, but nothing ventured nothing gained. Everyone who tries to improve their situation receives both help and respect. It is only if you're staying down and out and do nothing that people start wondering a bit.... What's wrong with receiving some help? Everyone does, whether we're in kindergarten getting help with our paint work and potties or we're university students having the professor explain quantum physics to us. Or we're at home and the wife trying to teach us to keep the house tidy! We are all at the receiving end for a large part of our lives.
Most countries worship education and they have their 'priests' and counselors who will guide you through their system. It is their job and without you they would have no excuse for their existence. They are happy to help you! You are giving them a job! In these countries there are also ample opportunities to attend vocational schools and for apprenticeships and you can learn a trade which is always a useful thing. Once you have learnt a trade (you get paid while you learn) you can start on your own and with your vast amount of people handling skills you may even want to and be successful in hiring other people to work with or for you. This all starts to smell of worldly success or at least a life where you will be as comfortable or even more so than back in TF. A word of warning is appropriate here; --- people who like short work hours and long and frequent holidays should shy away from the 'starting your own business' and similar ventures where a lot depends on you putting in the hours and weeks and years before things start to pay off in any significant way.
A thing that has always been scary for me about choosing an education or a trade or a job or situation is the thought that this is what you will do 'forever'. It looks like once you go down that road there is no turning back and you're locked in for life. From my personal experience this is NOT the case. Things ALWAYS change, there are always new opportunities opening up and things are never, I mean NEVER, the way you thought they'd be. And they never stay the way they are for very long either. The name of the game seems to be changes and surprises. Maybe they happen to me because I sort of seek them out, but at least they happen and make life quite interesting and exiting at times. A step is usually not irrevocable and there is always the possibility of changing the course and sometimes even ship underway. And once in port you don't even have to enlist again if you did not like it. You can ..... (I'll leave you to fill in the rest here. You've probably had enough of my ramblings for now. The purpose of this posting is to make it easier for you to cope, maybe give you some ideas and also give you hope of an interesting and varied and challenging future. Some, many or even most of you may not need this kind of "help", but if anyone at all can profit from this in any way, my spending the morning on the laptop is worth it ........
Seeya ..... |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from dina
Friday, April 09, 2004 - 07:02
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Your “experiences” and “viewpoints”, as you put it, aren’t the least bit helpful, they aren’t even factual, to put it mildly, what you have written is a pack of garbage. I don’t know who you are but you sound like you are still in TF or should be in TF as you have the same mentality.
(reply to this comment)
| from Ben321
Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 03:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wow, this is getting heavy, guys! Someone wants to disfigure my face and another wants to block me from this web site, and yet another one wants to smoke me out and hack my whereabouts. Ok, I'm ready! Why wait?! Step outside and we'll settle this once and for all! - Is that the way you want to do it? Huh? I'm not a violent man, but I may be willing to make an exception for some of you ........ But this is not he way it works, sad to say, that would be too easy - for me! -- He he!.
Joking aside, let us continue our most interesting discussion, under the Getting On Career section .... "The Defector Factor".
(reply to this comment)
| from Christy
Friday, March 12, 2004 - 15:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
I just wanted to clear up a misperception. While in some states you may be able to substitute teach without teacher certification (a four year degree), no public school system can legally hire you without accredited certification. In the my state, you can't even sub without a four year degree. Believe me, I did a ton of research on this before I enrolled in college. I wanted to find an easy way out in the field of teaching, but there simply isn't one. You can teach in many private schools without certification, but you still need a four year degree.
(reply to this comment)
| from Wolf
Friday, March 12, 2004 - 13:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
While it’s true that some of us learned marketable skills in TF, more often than not we did so at our own initiative and faced heavy opposition. For example, I learned Basic programming by reading a book that I stole from somebody’s computer bag, while on laundry duty. I’m sure I would’ve been punished if I was found out. This gave me a basis from which I later learned other programming languages. I used to read encyclopedias on the toilet. I was on full-time childcare and kitchen duty while in France, but I managed to learn French by listening to TF’s French music and reading French story books.
In most cases it would be misguided to give TF credit for any of our achievements, but I noticed that former SGA members often have more drive and passion for success than the average person. Perhaps the old adage that suffering brings out the best in you is true; however, TF shouldn’t get any credit for making its members suffer.
(reply to this comment)
|  From exister
Friday, March 12, 2004, 15:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well put Wolf. The Holocaust produced many tenacious and tough minded survivors, but I am sure none of them are giving kudos to Hitler for devising the machinations that made them who they are. The analogies for this are endless. Look at the Vietnam War. Once again, many tough veterans driven by their psychological scars, yet most of them aren't ready to give LBJ or Nixon a historical pat on the back.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Conqueror of Uranus
Tuesday, March 16, 2004, 01:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree. It disturbs me, to say the least, when I hear the likes of Zerby exonerrating the "values" of TF edu-ka-shun. The role she plays as the good intentioned saint victimized by bitter allegations is what happens when you're a dellusional megalomaniac. If I was to hit someone with my car after knocking back a few, and hadicap them for life, I certainly woudn't tell him/her to thank me for crashing into them beacause now they can get a cool insurance payout....(reply to this comment) |
| | from moon beam
Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 14:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
"This is where our own will bought us.." Correction; we had no 'will' within their confines.You say it like it's a bad thang-yes our own will got us out and it will keep getting stronger.
There's more chance of being treated like shite in the cult; you just couldn't show it for the wrinkle inducing smile plastered accross it. (can I sue?)
I'll 'Share this iccle testimonie with you sweatie,GBY,ILY,ILABTKDSomthing or other.... I bought some wine the other night and the lady at the counter smiled and said "Have a good evening" genuinely-and i did very!!
(reply to this comment)
| from Joe H
Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 13:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
Okay, well Albatross already listed most of the things that bothered me about this article. But here are a few more:
"but the fat cat salaries are in the minority" Of course they're in the minority! If everyone was a fat cat they wouldn't call them fat cats! They'd just call them cats!
"With your inescapable background as a sales person where the main product has been YOU" When was any Family member EVER instructed to do this? The goal was always to let Jesus shine, it's only Jesus in me, etc. My mother listened to self-help books around the clock when she first left to try to undo this self-hating influence, and they had only been brainwashing her since she was a young adult! How much worse is it likely to be for someone who they've been brow-beating since birth?
Your whole paragraph on school teachers is wrong on so many levels, but instead of going into it, I'm just going to dismiss it as irrelevant for two reasons: 1) Teachers don't make that much money, and 2) Who wants to spend the rest of their lives teaching? If we were sick of dealing with Family kids, why would we want to take care of little "systemite" brats, who are much worse?
"If we were able to find fault with the Family" What the hell are you smoking? How could anyone in their right mind NOT find fault with the Family? Most people are apalled and horrified by the Family! And then you go on to imply that the churches are much worse? But of course, every church in my neighborhood has been accused of child abuse and prostitution, so that's irrelevant. It's their LUKEWARMNESS that really gets to me! But never mind that, how about this little bit of wishful thinking: "the churches COULD provide a place for some to work.... Not highly paid jobs, but they MUST exist" Uhm, how do you know? I'm pretty sure most churches get by primarily on volunteer support. Sometimes the pastor or priest receives a salary, but more often than not, he holds a "system" job as well.
"While what we have been told about system jobs seem to hold true" Uh, nope, sorry. I have a lot more rights and protection against despotic bosses out here than I did in the cult! My job is not a "meaningless grind" or a "rat race." It's challenging and dynamic, and I like the people I work with. I don't sit in traffic for an hour every morning, I don't struggle to pay the bills, I don't have ulcers or a bad heart, I don't even have carpal tunnel or eye fatigue! I'm enjoying this green magic carpet ride!
Why don't you go back to the cult and serve God? Cause Mammon is treating me quite well!
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from Aita
Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 12:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
"Is it a fact that a lot of us who leave TF and go to the system, find it quite a shock and quite difficult? We start having to face pressures we never had before, deal with people who are not like exactly "yielded to God", we get lied to, cheated, and stomped on, in short treated like shit. We become depressed, angry, and bitter, and we need something to place the blame on. In our pride, we can't put the blame on our present circumstances, surroundings, or fate, for this is where our own will brought us. So the only place we can put our blame is on TF, or our parents, or the "bad leaders" who were so mean to us, or the victor camps we attended, and the list goes on and on.......... "
I have no idea where you left, or where you've been outside of TF, but I never experienced any of this when I left. I got a "system job" while still in TF and one of the things that surprised me at the time was how wrong TF was about the way things were on "the outside". It was one of the many eye-openers I was to experience.
Life for me since I left has been good. Yes, it's hard to pay the bills, work, study, buy a home and be a single mom all at the same time. But the friends I've made have really helped me out a lot. They know what it means to make ends meet to pay your next semester, or your sons' school, they don't give me the BS TF would give about "trusting the Lord, you're out of the spirit, etc."
Most of the things you describe there, 'getting lied to, cheated, and stomped on, in short treated like shit', I experienced in TF.
(reply to this comment)
| from Albatross
Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 11:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, well, well.
If I did not know any better I’d have thought that Ne Oblie was the author of this ode to Family education. The language of this article smacks of cultspeak. Here are a few gems I culled:
~ I want to share……[not too commonly used unless discussing child rearing or past abuses]
~ Bitter [this word was not used with irony, but stated as fact]
~ And you know what? [This patronizing tone runs through the length of the article]
~ Now that I have your attention
~ (Sounds complicated?) [Our writer has the uniquely Familian love for parenthesis and quotation marks
~ Fat cat salaries.
~ Ha [another family favorite]
~ System [the unselfconscious, unronic use of the word system is suspect. He uses this word repeatedly]
~ Potties [Wow…I can’t remember the last time I hear the word potties used]
~ Worldly success
And now for some of his opinions borrowed directly from the Family’s Publicity Handbook:
Ben321: We start having to face pressures we never had before, deal with people who are not like exactly "yielded to God", we get lied to, cheated, and stomped on, in short treated like shit. We become depressed, angry, and bitter, and we need something to place the blame on. In our pride, we can't put the blame on our present circumstances, surroundings, or fate, for this is where our own will brought us. So the only place we can put our blame is on TF, or our parents, or the "bad leaders" who were so mean to us, or the victor camps we attended,
Daniel: Speak for your self mate. I was treated very well by most “system” people.
It was the Family people who inflicted your above list on me.
Ben: The downside of the h.e. (higher education) option is that it requires years of study where you might incur a sizable debt which normally has to be repaid, and then you start looking for a job which can prove to be practically non-existent.
Daniel: This is a Family fallacy. College graduates in the US make on average 1 million more than do their High School counterparts. Ben makes it sound like it’s easier to get a job if you have no “system” education. This is a cute Family theory, but it is not that plausible.
Ben: For a kindergarten teacher or even primary school teacher the paperwork is most likely not that important if they are hard up for teachers.
Daniel: That may be true in Gambia or in Thailand, but in the US, it actually requires some education, some background checks, and even a TB shot.
Ben: I would say that a lot of the people who have left TF probably are qualified teachers who could step right into almost any teaching position in public or private schools.
Daniel: I would say you are wrong. Taking care of cult babies for years does not make you qualified. You may be good at it, but still not be qualified.
Ben: Few of us realize that the toddlers in TF actually provided almost all of us with a complete education as childcare teachers and helpers, nannies or what have you.
Daniel: We don’t realize it because it’s not true. It may have provided us with the experience, but not with an education. Given what I know about TF’s child rearing practices, I would be very wary to allow a recently ex-family young person to care for my children, should I ever have any.
Ben: Or maybe you know how to sing or play the guitar or the piano or another popular instrument? Then are tons of musicians out there who have survived for years on a lot less talent and charisma than you probably have. Do you know how to act? --- What do you mean, you say, "I have been acting up for years!" Well, there's another open door. You like performing and dancing? Well, there must be tons of jobs available.
Daniel: Are there tons of jobs for musicians out there? And I don’t mean busking.
Ben: Or maybe you like to argue? --- You say, "You must be kidding, that is my second name!" Well, then politics is the way to go, that is all they ever do.
Daniel: Ya…I’ll just waltz into politics and make a decent living.
Ben: Then we have the field of NGOs, (non govt orgs) a world in many ways similar to the one we come from, but with government backing. Can you beat that?
Daniel: Wait…you’re saying that TF is like an NGO? You’re kidding right? If they are anything like TF then yes….I can beat that.
Ben: The demands are less strict and the goals and purposes are not that high and lofty either, but may provide an avenue and a way to go for the ones who want to help feed the hungry and help the needy
Daniel: Rrrright…….cause TF is just a strict religious NGO with high and lofty goals of just feeding the hungry and helping the needy.
Ben: The churches are a pretty sickening case, especially with our background in mind, I mean if we are able to find fault with TF, how do you think the Churches come out?
Daniel: Ben Ben Ben….sorry, unlike you we don’t have the same old Family issues with churches and their churchy churchiness.
Ben: But, anyway, for the ones who can hold their noses for a while and stand an unseen level of hypocrisy and lukewarmness, the churches could provide a place for some to work for a while and at the same time doing a bit of good.
Daniel: Hypocrisy? Lukewarmness? My, My….right,…cause I want the church I work with to be Sold out, and ON Fire, just like TF.
Ben: I am just trying to widen and expand the box here as sometimes a system job can look like a straight jacket with only one size and color available.
Daniel: Unlike the Family of course.
Ben: One advantage that most people raised or trained in TF has, is they speak the same language as $$ does!
Daniel: What language is that Ben?
Ben: Many may have received more schooling and training in TF than they realize and all they would need to do is pass the appropriate exams and they are ready for the grinder.
Daniel: The grinder? Schooling? Ok Ben..just point the way to the “ex-cult-childcare- member-with-NO-education-who-wants-to-now-teach-first-grade” exam.
And it goes on and on. There are a few valid points made here…but the tone is one that I am very familiar with. This drips with the condescension of The Family media teams and leaders. So Ben, maybe you are just a “lost sheep” who still sounds like a dyed-in-the wool Tf member, but I would say that you missed YOUR career calling. You could always go back a third time. Who knows…we could end up facing off on Larry King Live.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From Ne Oublie
Thursday, March 11, 2004, 12:43
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Albatross,
This is an excellently written, and well-debated, post. What I found to be surprising, however, is the way in which you opened by suggesting that I could have been the author of Ben's post.
The 'Family' terminology which you so rightly identified in his writing are not ones which I have used (if at all). The writing style, and choice of terminology bear little resemblance to my own, yet the structure of your opening implies that these are shared by us. I find it unfortunate that you would open what is otherwise a very credible and well-written post with such an off-hand remark.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | from Shaka
Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 00:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yo Ben! If you had really left TF twice, you would know that we don't call it "The System" anymore. It's called the real world, buddy. You can cut out the Family lingo crap if you want to even think about making us believe that you're for real.
(reply to this comment)
| from Wolf
Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 15:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
Is it just me or does half of this sound like copy & paste from cult literature?
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | from Jerseygirl
Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 14:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
I don't doubt there are many people who can pretty much just land awesome money making jobs without an education. I know some who have. It's great. I'm not one of them. :-( so I am studying to get a degree. I have full confidance that I will get a good job with it( and of course with my totally marketable personality).
The thing is that the gift of learning ,and taking the time to study and expand ones view of the world ,has so many more benefits than merely jobs and money. I don't consider it a waste of time or money, even if I end up in some debt. It certainly hasn't been without sacrifice;I have to take nite classes and it gets tough, but the self esteem and knowledge gained are absolutely worth it. Besides, after being on "rotating ministries" for most of my life, I'm glad to know that I'm learning a trade which will be of use to me and that I enjoy.
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| from Dani
Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 12:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
Maybe some people may have the personality of the ‘Catch me if Can’ approach to getting a job. Although maybe there not aware of how much easier life would have been if they did have a decent childhood. Although I'm sure it must be good to count ones blessing, after all if David Livingstone could get an education anyone can………not
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| | | | | | | From
Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 13:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
I totally agree, Dani. I do not have a personality for that.
I could not stand having to "bullshit my way into the job" as apparently Nick doesn't mind doing. After so many years of being forced to sell useless products, I refuse to ever have to "bullshit" again. It was excruciating and I am so glad I never have to go "tapenessing" or "postering" another day in my life. Now, if only the occasional nightmares about "tapenessing" and "postering" would go away too, I'd feel perfect!
Nick said below "Personal marketability is the key! It is almost as important as a good education..." My marketability is based on my education which I worked at for long years after escaping. You can't endlessly sell hot air and have nothing to back it up. I agree with Nick about aiming high, that's what I did, but I went and got the qualifications to sell myself at that high level.
I understand those of us who felt unfairly locked out of opportunities after leaving, it was unfair. I had that upbringing too. But it's hard, having worked so hard to have skills to back up my selling of myself, that is to be selling something that is of use, I have a hard time sympathising with some I know who are still con men.
But if anyone is prepping for survival in the wilderness, I have some canned dehydrated water to sell you (just add water and it's ready to use).
(reply to this comment) |
| | From oldtimer
Saturday, May 01, 2004, 15:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hi, everybody. I can identify. I just left a Radio Shack job, because I didn't want to carry a gun along with the day's money, 'cause the manager was too lazy to fix his own car & do his own job! I'd really hate to have to shoot, and maybe kill, someone.
I then hired on with a company selling machines that process credit cards, but other employees stole my appointmtents. Then, I took a job selling contracts for a collection agency, but the "more senior salesmen" were accomplished liars I just could not work with!
God has always provided, though. I have had good and bad jobs, but I always learned something.
I did go back & get my Bachelors, and I'm now getting a Masters in Healthcare management.
It's been a long and hard road, but I will never regret leaving the CULT (families are actually related and are usualy not MONSTERS towards their own children).
Your collective and individual anger is certainly justified, but you eventually lose if you let that alone define you, right? That was my experience.
Keep your hope!
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| | From Nick
Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 15:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
You are missing my point. Just because I have to sell myself to get into the job doesn't mean I am not capable of backing it up.
That is a part of marketability. To be able to show that even tho you don't have the paper to say you are qualified, you can still prove that you can do the job regardless.
I have no idea if you have worked in corporate America for long, but a lot of companies will hire someone they feel would be a greater asset to their team based on someone’s dependability and work ethic. It doesn’t take more than a few weeks to train someone to do a job that thousands of others have done in the past, but finding someone that will be a loyal member of your team can be difficult.
Again, I am not discouraging education at all and know the great benefits of it. I am just agreeing with the original point of marketing yourself. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Dani
Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 18:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think it depends on what job you do and how much self-confidence you have. I’m currently studying an IT degree in which the lectures have told us on more than one occasion that people working in the trade have a better chance at getting jobs due to having more experience and on the job training. Being certified in an application can for the most part carry more weight than (of us non geniuses) a vague memory of a couple of weeks and a few all night
sessions to get the D thing to work. But then again I think it gave me personal a lot more self-confidence. I think it really depends on the person. I think education is something that never ends and doesn’t finish when university ends it a process that continues through life. That not to say I'm not bitter about not having an education as a child. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from Relativity
Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 11:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
To me your article does a brilliant job of documenting how low the bar is that the Family sets with our so-called training and expects us to silently accept if we leave.
I do not gladly accept a low socio-educational-economic standard for my life. I have struggled against the upstream current of what I was handed to begin with and I have overcome a lot of adversity. At this point it would be unthinkable for me to be satisfied with any of the options that you list as readily available. My friends all have achievements that are valued by the kind of people I associate with now, and the undeniable fact is that an upbringing not geared toward soldierhood in TF's end-time army is an advantage.
Anyone notice how the new GNs denigrate "selfish System living for yourself?"
Which brings me to ask a question that seems glaringly obvious to me. Why is self-sacrifice so important to TF in every aspect other than the urge to ejaculate with company to the point that there is an obligation to "share" your body with the one having the "need"? Why can't *they* be sacrificial and give you your privacy and let you have your integrity?
(reply to this comment)
| from Nick
Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 10:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
I totally agree with the point you made about selling yourself. Personal marketability is the key! It is almost as important as a good education and I would like to reiterate this to anyone out there that is just entering the job market.
I have spent the last 8 years of my life working in a "professional environment" and have not gotten any of my jobs based on my formal edumacation, but rather on my ability to bullshit my way into the job. (Otherwise known as Selling Myself.)
I know of a few people that have finished collage and yet are still stuck in dead end jobs because they are simply not marketable people and then I know others like myself that don't have much edumacation and yet do well in life. I attribute this to having a shoot for the sky and hit the ceiling attitude rather than shoot for something acceptable and get less. You know that you are worth that salary and you portray yourself that way. A lot of times a personal interview can mean 10 times as much as what your resume says on paper.
Now I am not downing education at all and infact I commend it and if you can have personal marketability and education that’s even better!
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from cassy
Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 09:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
I a lot of what you said is very helpful. I agree with you that there isn't one set way but the opportunities are endless. I especially like that you brought up that you can change and that once in a job it's not set in stone. What I've found is that you don't have to "settle" for anything, but with determination and a little snooping around you can do what you enjoy and keep your life interesting and varied. There may be times that you have to do a job for a few months that's not particularly your favorite to pay the bills, but it's just a stepping stone. The Family loves to paint the picture that the "system" is a deadend thing. They are still stuck in the "Green Door" picture Berg painted. It's so a lie! The only person that lets you get stuck is YOU. You have the control and hold in the reins in your life, and that's empowering.
The one thing I want to also clarify, is that I have met wonderful people, honest, helpful and sincere since leaving. People I admire and look up to. I think a lot of us have, and so I reject the line that as soon as you leave you're bound to get screwed or cheated. Being aware is good, and not naive but the fact is, there are wonderful people out here who we can learn a lot from. I suppose it's de-contaminating ourselves from the "we are the best" holier than thou attitude that had been instilled in us for so many years. (What a delusion!)
(reply to this comment)
| from xhrisl
Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 05:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
Nice try, unfortunately this smells like “let’s all thank the family,” unfortunately while many of the skills we acquired in the family may have general practical applications in various trades such as manual labor, and the foodservice industry, they are not exactly the cream of the crop with regard to income incentives and living the better life.
While I am not aware of what the job market is in your sector, as a general rule things are pretty bleak all over, and the better prepared one is educationally, the better the income potential is. Of course I have neglected used car sales as a viable option for earning income for the simple reason that the field from a psychological prospective is littered with individuals suffering to some degree or another from antisocial personality disorder. In non-technical language this means; “I’ll lie to every sucker that comes within three feet of me” all the while selling myself as the greatest person whose ever lived. This of course is a favorite technique practiced by charlatans the world over, from priests to the proverbial car sales man.
Nonetheless, the greatest skills the family instilled in many of us such as the ability to manipulate people, judge behavior, and modify the attitudes of those around us (deceivers yet true) will only take one so far. Unless of course, one uses these “natural strengths” coupled with higher education to launch a career in psychology or other such fields in behavioral sciences the attainment level for such skills is rather limited to occupations of a dubious nature.
The fact of the matter is, the success of those of us who have left has been contingent upon a strong will, a keen thirst for knowledge and self betterment, and the willingness to pursue at all cost, our own dreams---not, as seems to be the contention, the some great family training.
(reply to this comment)
| From Ne Oublie
Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 12:24
 (Agree/Disagree?)
I was expecting someone to come up with something like this. While I too find Ben's tone to be less than appropriate - not to mention having serious doubts about his reasons for leaving/rejoining/leaving TF - I think that he DOES have a good point.
All of us who have left the Family have found ourselves, at some point or another, in more or less the same position: that of trying to market our skills in search of a job, and feeling inferior because of our lack of a 'normal' upbringing. We find common ground in that we have many shared experiences growing up in TF.
Whether we view our upbringing as having been abusive or not, what we experienced has served to make us what we are today. I mean, who would Nancy have as the target of the rage she is so proud of, had she not grown up in TF? Would she even have that rage? Suffice it to say, for better or worse who we are today has been affected by TF.
Since leaving TF I have chosen to focus on my future: building a successful career and life for myself. To do so, I intend use whatever experiences and knowledge I have gained, the majority of which can be attributed in some way to TF. Whether I consider them to be 'good' or 'bad' is irrelevant - my goal is to find a way to use them to my benefit, something which I've managed to do quite successfully so far. Others have perhaps not been quite so successful, in most cases I would blame this on not having found a way to use their experiences to their advantage. That is why I appreicate posts such as Ben's, he's found ways to utilise his experiences in TF and he's telling us about them. IMO a post such as this is far more valuable to us than all of the cult-bashing - because it can actually help us, today! Destroying TF may or may not eventually help the children who are currently in it, or those who will perhaps be born into it, but it most certainly isn't going to help me... or the majority of those who frequent this site - because we are no longer in it!
Allocating the blame for the lacks in our education is not going to better our lives - nor is it going to find us a better job - to do so we are going to have to somehow come to terms with our experiences and find a way to use them to our own advantage. That's what my intention is, and that's why I'm not particularly interested in all of the anti-Family sentiment on this (and other) sites - call me selfish, but I seriously don't consider it to be beneficial to me.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Vicky
Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 15:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
I can see what you're saying, ne oublie, and I do agree with a lot of it to a certain degree, but I also feel that I do have a right to get angry sometimes about the way I am now having to catch up on so many things when it comes to education and career options.
I am 28 years old (well, almost) and looking forward to the 'exciting' prospect of living on a shoestring for the next 5 years while I study, while simultaneously raising a family and trying to be a half-decent wife/lover/domestic godess. It is much more difficult getting an education this way and I feel like I won't be doing anything to the best of my ability because of the juggling it entails. I get upset when I think about the fact that I will most likely be in my forties by the time I am realistically going to be able to start building the career I want.
I grew up in Scandinavia where a good education is considered extremely important. Standards of education are high and you are expected to go through university if you are serious about going somewhere in life. If I had not grown up in TF it is more than likely that I would have finished the educational phase of my life at least a few years ago, and I do sometimes feel extremely frustrated at being denied the chance to go through higher education when I was younger.
However, having said that, I do think you're right and there isn't much point in continuously blaming my problems or frustrations on TF or my parents or whatever, as it doesn't do anything to solve the problems. Instead I try to plan out my life. I have short term as well as long term goals that I am striving for, and most of the time I can deal with the fact that it's going to be a long slog until I can begin to get myself together, but I must admit that sometimes I just feel really, really angry about it.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From duh
Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 14:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
I was reading an article today by the President of a large company who mentioned "how experiences both good and bad shape a person." This does not somehow mean that the bad experiences that shaped me were not bad experiences! It also does not mean that anybody should go around giving people bad experiences to "shape their character" or something, or lessen the wrongness of people commiting bad acts! I also often think I could do without many aspects of how those bad experiences shaped me.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Ne Oublie
Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 15:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
duh! You are missing the whole point! The fact of the matter is that these things have ALREADY happened to us - no amount of blame-placing or cult-destroying will change what has already happened to you, me, or anyone else. I'm not saying that it should be forgiven or forgotten, nor am I absolving anyone for what they did. What I'm saying is that finding a way to utilise these negative experiences to our benefit IS a worthwhile endeavour.
I'm not saying that 'shit happens' - I'm saying that it's ALREADY happened, so DEAL WITH IT!(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 16:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
Quite frankly Ne Oublie, the only person who has the right to tell someone else to "deal with" what they have experienced is someone who has experienced the same thing themselves. You have told us you were never abused in the Family, and never saw abuse. You told us you had "good training" and learned transferrable skills. Good for you, but if that is the case, you have no idea what it is like for someone who did not. Do you have any idea what it is like to leave with young children, or to take in and be responsible for your younger brothers and sisters? Or to start over in a country you have never lived in before, sometimes not even being able to speak the language? Or to leave in a South American, East European or Asian country? Or to have done nothing more than childcare and laundry for your entire life? Or to leave with nothing more than the clothes on your back because you had to run away, or because everything was taken from you when you left? No? Then please take your condescending attitude and shove it.
What is ironic, and we see this time and time again on this web site, is that the majority of the people here, (and in fact often especially the ones who are most vocal and active in their calls to bring the Family to justice) are extremely motivated, hard working and successful in their own lives. They work and go to school and help their families and friends and have a life. I have tremendous respect and admiration for and wish I had half the energy and determination of most of the participants here. Fairly frequently though someone (often who has just left) buys the group's nonsense of us just being lazy whiners and feels the need to tell everyone else to "get over it".
The point of using what we have and getting on with our lives is valid, but we already know this and don't really need you or anyone else to point this out. What on earth do you think everyone else is doing? Sitting around waiting for the wrongs to be made right? Give us some credit. When you have experienced the same challenges, achieved the same level of success and have as much to be proud of as some of the other people here, then your advice would have a bit more validity. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Ne Oublie
Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 20:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
Jules, first of all the beauty of the freedom of speech which we enjoy here on the internet, as well as in most civilised countries provides that ANYONE has the right to say what they want. That said, there is a difference between my saying 'deal with it' and the 'get over it' you indirectly attributed to me. In that I am not saying that everyone should go on as if they've lived a rosy life. What I am saying is that the key to success is to learn to make the best of what you've got.
Secondly, no, I do not have to have experienced everything for myself in order to gain an understanding of what one has/is going through. Naturally 'an understanding' will never compare to a first-hand knowledge, but I am still entitled to an opinion - and to the right to express it.
Ironically, had you actually taken the time to read my post you would have seen that what I was advocating was the use of this forum to help those of us who have left to better their careers. I have not achieved all of my goals - not by far - so I have a personal interest in hearing what others have done to succeed in their own lives. I imagine that others are similarly interested to benefit from such experiences.
To my knowledge, those who have succeeded have done so through hard work, and through making the most of what life has dealt them. If you, or anyone, have examples of other methods to benefit your career then I may be persuaded to emulate that.
Yes, I've had it better than much of what is described on this site, yet I do not consider this to make me a better person. I am under no illusions of the hard-working nature of many participants on this site, it is the secret to their successes which I am interested to apply to my own career, yet this does not mean that I wish to emulate them in every way.
You do not seem to understand the basic premise of debating whereby one separates the individual from the topic being discussed. In my posts I have primarily addressed the topic, and only rarely made comments regarding the individuals with whom I debate. To suggest that my disapproval of their argument implies anything more than that is simply incorrect. While there are topics on which I disagree with various members, I hold no ill-will towards any of them, and I do sincerely wish them the best in their efforts. I just don't think it hurts to hear a 'good' story every once in a while.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Thursday, March 11, 2004, 10:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
"the beauty of the freedom of speech which we enjoy here on the internet, as well as in most civilised countries provides that ANYONE has the right to say what they want"
That's a bit rich coming from one of the former censors of the Family Youth discussion group. What was the deal with your love of freedom of speech then?
If you want to discuss how to get ahead in your job, go for it. If you have advice to share or questions to ask, please, no one is stopping you and there are sections of this web site set up specifically for those topics. What I find extremely irritating is the constant "now kids, we can all learn a good lesson here" which permeates most of your comments. It would be much more effective to stick to the specifics and your own personal experience or questions, and leave the opinions on what we all "should do" alone.
Ne Oublie, only months ago, you spent hours and hours online defending the Family. I assume your opinions have changed somewhat since then. We all have the right to change our minds, that's the point of growth, but if you were wrong then, how can you be so aloof and certain now? (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Joe H
Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 20:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
Okay, first you accuse Jules of interfering with your right to free speech, then you say she didn't actually take the time to read your post, then you have the gall to say that SHE doesn't "seem to understand the basic premise of debating whereby one separates the individual from the topic being discussed"?
Well I'll do you one better and stick to the topic. Here's my problem with your topic: it's stupid! "The key to success is to learn to make the best of what you've got"? Fucking brilliant, noobly! Ya got anymore pearls of wisdom to share with us? Don't you have something better to do than tell someone not to complain about their shitty education and any other deep seated issues resulting from the trauma they might have suffered? How about you take your own advice and get cracking on your career?
Having said that, I'd just like to say that my disgust with your line of bullshit does not imply anything more than that, I hold no ill-will towards you, and I do sincerely wish you the best in your efforts. Not!(reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 22:30
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thank you, Joe, that was brilliantly put. Noobles arguments or attempts there at remind me of the slipping in and out of the cult's arguments. They always strain at one tiny point or two, but when strung together it makes no friggin' sense. Then, of course, there is the underlying condescending attitude of "let me enlighten you." Please, don't. It doesn't make any f'ing sense no matter how sanctimonious you make your attempt.
You know there are a few folks in that cult that I'm glad stayed, as they are truly unbearable to be around. I think this is one of those folks who slipped through their cracks.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jerseygirl
Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 14:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
Exactly! I'm pretty convinced that if there is a god he is certainly not listening and so we may as well go ahead and murmur if we feel like it. Why not? A lot of times the glass IS half empty! I once told someone (who was ragging on me to consider my blessings and consider the starving people in Ethiopia etc etc) that my suffering is relative to me even if it is not to others. It's not that I don't care but for crying out loud! I don't think we should go in the garden and eat worms like Joe suggested ,but I think we have every right to pull up a chair and have an occassional tea party with the devil and/or all the little doubtlets.(reply to this comment) |
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