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Getting On : Health
Ageless Profession? | from Anthony - Friday, September 13, 2002
accessed 2613 times Honestly, what is the difference between stripping/exotic dancing and FFing, in PRINCIPLE?
I am a straight male feminist, and as such, I hate seeing women degraded, especially through their own choosing (or other dubious reasons).
Regards,
Anthony
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from Anaik
Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 16:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
Oh, I know I am Very late in reading half of the articles on this site, but anyway, I felt like replying to this one. The difference between stripping/Ffing is that strippers never claim to be it doing for "GOD." They strip for themselves and whatever reason they have. "Professional strippers" are also not coerced, and most strippers( I don't claim to know all) are not fucking the people they dance for. Many women in TF, that I have spoken with about FFing, felt that they had to do it or they weren't in "God's will." Anyway, also being feminist that I am, I believe women should be able to do what they want, in regards to their own bodies, without feeling, in so doing, that they are degrading themselves. And if a woman appreciates her body and sexuality, enough to show it off (or even make money by it), well then I have to respect her choice.
(reply to this comment)
|  From Nique
Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 16:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree completely with Anaik. If, as she stated, a woman if comfortable enough with her body to work as an exotic dancer without feeling degraded or demoralized and, while doing it, is able to make a good living for herself, all the more power to her!! While I am not comfortable enough in my own skin to be an exotic dancer, I don't have an issue with any of the girls that work in that profession. In fact, some of them put on an awesome show at our ABC club here in Alaska. And not one of those girls has ever tried to "witness" to me or anyone else I've been with while in there.
On the other hand, having to participate in FFing tore away the last shred of dignity or pride that my mom felt she had left. Having come from an extremely old-fashioned/religious background despite her period of rebellion in the late 60s that compelled her to join TF, my mom felt nothing but revulsion toward the whole idea but was not strong enough to refuse to participate. The feelings of guilt and disgust still prey on her to this day even though she has been out since the mid 80s.
P.S. Anaik, its been a while...give me a call sometime. I miss you. Great pix of you and Roger under your profile.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | from .
Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 16:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
.
(reply to this comment)
| from dude
Friday, October 04, 2002 - 01:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
if a girl has sex with a bunch of guys she is considered a slut, if a guy has sex with a bunch of girls he is considered experienced!
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From girl
Friday, October 04, 2002, 08:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dude did say a guy's "considered" experienced if he's had sex with a bunch of girls and a girl's "considered" a slut -- I know a guy like that who even "calls" himself a "slut" but I think (my opinion) the point is how it's regarded. Whatever you "call" a guy like that, there is not the same stigma as a woman would have.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | from Anthony
Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 01:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
This leads quiet directly down the beaten path of the debate which asks “what is art and what is pornographic?” a debate which has become quiet political, and of interest to the censors. I believe it is a rather victor less debate due to all of the variables involved, and to wear out the overused cliché “one’s poison is another’s…” well, we all know that one. As long as children and animals are not involved, well, whatever. After all, there are nudist camps, and I doubt residents feel degraded and exploited, although in pure definition, these would be porno camps, ugh, all those nasty organs making a very un-joyful sight. But “naturally” some people find this quiet aesthetic, chic, artistic, a real treat for some eyes ok, enough of that. But really, who is to say what is art and what isn’t?
I ‘m not saying that I ‘m a smut magazine fan, but if they are “blacklisted” then it is only fair, in my opinion, that we do the same to all the works of the “great masters”. I mean Michelangelo's Statue of David is rather “revealing”, don’t you think? There really isn’t a difference between art and pornography in essence; the only difference is perception and taste. Some say that while pornography is mechanical, art is more expressive. But I say, aren’t they essentially expressing the same thing?
Anthony
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | From monkeyfart
Saturday, September 28, 2002, 08:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
Anthony, since who and what determines the validity of art is unknown to me and since perhaps anything expressing anything is art I thought of an interesting parallel: If I was for the sake of this debate to equate the experience of eating with the experience of sex, then also the act of having sex with the act of cooking I could discuss the issue without actually mentioning anything offensive. So in that vein, would I consider a cooking show to be art? - Probably not. However if two fat ladies with individual personalities & a humorous dialogue were thrown in you may just have a comedy or close to it.
I think the difference lies in that art tends to discuss or portray a full story or setting more than just one act of a story as in the case of cooking shows, or "porn movies" or "smut magazines".
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | from Craven yawns
Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 04:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
IMO The difference in principle is that strippers and prostitutes can sometimes stand to gain by their work.
FFing was done for the gain of others and for a flawed ideology.
(reply to this comment)
| from pharmaboy
Friday, September 20, 2002 - 08:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
my .02$
I have complete respect for girls that sell their body in any way(strippers, night club girls, hookers, etc). I think it's disgusting when girls don't do it for money, but for the power they feel over men(acting slutty).
Why do we look up to celebrities in awe and wonder but look down on prostitutes as low life? Actors/actresses also sell their body to the world, & to the right people in the entertainment industry or they wouldn't be where they are today. Everyone sells their body/soul in some way at work, from the salesman that smiles so angelically at you to sell you a car, to the admin staff that works late & has a family at home but her boss needs to see that she's "motivated".
The important thing is that ultimately, it is fully & completely the woman's choice. Religion tries to make these girls feel guilty, but really, it's just a job. If it was regulated(legal) like in holland, organized crime would have much less involment & working girls would be treated better. It's better for some horny guy to pay for it(then it's simply a business transaction) than forcing himself on the first girl he meets after a few drinks.(I hate alcohol & there is nothing more pathetic than a drunk, it is the number one date-rape drug & It should be classified with heroin, or worse).
Ok, so they'll go some old guy they're not attracted to, but he's paying her, so? As a waiter after 12 hours standing, & some idiot was giving me crap, my normal impulse would be to piss on his food in front of him, but no, I'm still giving him that cheesy smile while apologizing "my" mistake. There isn't much difference, just I'm getting minimum wage, & they get alot more.
(reply to this comment)
| From JoeH
Friday, September 20, 2002, 19:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree, and I would like to add that many women fall in the category I like to call "emotional slut", that is, they fall in love at the drop of a hat, but won't have sex till the third date, or marriage or whatever. And then there are emotional prostitutes, who "fall in love" with rich men, or just pretend to cause they're gold-diggin bitches!
Why shouldn't people guard their emotions more than they guard their "purity"? There's no condom for the heart!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From JoeH
Monday, September 23, 2002, 16:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
yes, in fact I was an emotional slut once, but I think "gold-digging" is primarily a female practice, though some men do indeed engage in it.
I'm sorry if my comments sounded sexist, but they were only directed at a certain type of women and not women in general. I guess I'm just really fed up with virgins falling in love with me.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From JoeH
Monday, September 23, 2002, 19:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
While Anthony makes a good point about this getting off topic and borderline offensive, I think virgins by their nature are likely to put the cart before the horse (love before sex)
Don't get me wrong, everyone's entitled to their own attitude towards sex, and many people male and female don't separate love from sex and that's their perogative. However, I still despise people who fall in love too easily, it's not real and is suggestive of other emotional disorders.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From monkeyfart
Monday, September 23, 2002, 20:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
Antony, I completely understand your sentiments toward disliking the "disrespect of women" or being "offensive". You may note however that in referring to "virgins" or "emotional sluts" no reference need be made to the gender of the subject, and as such my last comment did not even identify a relation to a particular gender. I will agree both male and female can be "emotional sluts"(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From monkeyfart
Monday, September 23, 2002, 20:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
continued from above... "both male and female can be 'emotional sluts, just plain "sluts", and both will certainly be "virgins" at one stage. You have presented a conundrum in that you can freely bring up the issue of "FFing" Vs Stripteasing or prostitution but you cannot accept terms such as "emotional sluts", "virgins" & "sluts", terms far more widely used and understood with far less negative conotation than "prositute", "FF'er", or even "stripteaser" and which are terms used to describe fairly normal people or stages which many normal people encounter. So in short I fail to understand your difficulty in discussing common references to personallity or character traits when considering your willingness to discuss people who have turned these "traits" into a lifestyle.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Anthony
Wednesday, September 25, 2002, 16:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
Let’s see if I can successfully turn this around, since I fail to see your point, MonkeyF, there are simply too many contradictions in your post. How about you tell all the women who visit this website what you think woman’s place is in society, in general. That way, next time you use polemical nouns, which you deem necessary to the discussion at hand, there will no question as to where you are coming from, at least not to those who know you. Perhaps I acted with unnecessary exaggeration in my quest to keep this article “on track”, however, this is an article about coming to terms with our views in regards to sexuality, upon exiting a ferociously filthy farce that is a sex cult. As such, I take back my reproach to both you and Joe H., and am interested to see where the discussion is headed. I too have had my share of problems with women, so much so, that I surprise myself with my lack of “hatred” for them. In fact, one of my ex-girlfriends once stalked me – and yes, she was a virgin too guilty of all manner of emotional inconsistency and passionate persnickety. I hope this comment doesn’t “excommunicate” me from the feminist club, LOL!
As far as being borderline offensive, it is unreasonable to expect that no offence will come. Indeed, I could state that “I love everybody unconditionally”, and you can be sure that someone will take offence because my “everybody” includes his or her personal enemies. That is not to say that I don’t at least try to avoid confrontations when possible. Given the dictionary definition of the word “slut”, and the fact that many women use it themselves, I guess it should not be flagged as a faux pas. Actually, on this very website I called someone a “cunt-for-Christ”, a term which I shamefully coined in a protracted session of verbal gymnastics. Also, why isn’t there as much uproar when nouns referring to male genitalia in derogatory context are used as when those referring to women’s are? Equality is a two-way street!
If I state my position, sans niaiserie, on the roles of females and males, my hope is that when I use one of those controversial words in the course of conversation, there will be no ambiguity. You both (Joe and MonkeyF) made it clear that you were referring to all women. I don’t respect women simply for the sake of respecting women. One cannot be expected to go around respecting everyone indiscriminately, some people clearly deserve no respect at all. On the other hand, some people are not even worthy of my disrespect; for indeed, to very act of disrespecting someone show what I call “negative interest”, I simply ignore these individuals. Please don’t blush or cringe at my overt, shameless and almost obscene self-importance, I won’t, for one thing, nature has not given me the ability to blush, and cringing hurts my teeth.
I should probably take this time to clearly state what I mean when I say I’m a feminist. One of my male friends pointed out to me the generally negative air, which blows around the term “feminist”, so foul that even women’s rights advocates avoid this “label”. For every cause, there will be “extremists”. I am all for equality of the sexes, that’s it, unconditional equality. I am so not for the vicious shrilled-voiced, butched-up emasculation and “herding” of males. Nor do I share the nostalgic cries for the matriarchy, goddess worship, witchcraft, astrology, an exclusively matrilineal culture and other such rotten rubbish, which is a threat to intellectual and reasonable minds. Why can’t we all just get along?
Men are not always the culprits in the distasteful process of degrading women. Many women are shamefully skilled in the “art and science” of exploiting each other through the various forms of media and “profession”. Kind of like the emancipated slaves who became slave owners – l’effet c’est moi. Of course, it is usually marketed and catered to a male audience; thus, we males are again blamed.
Now that man need no longer be the hunter, now that “success” in many of today’s industrial societies is not contingent on one’s physical strength – brawn – but more often by intellectual prowess and entrepreneurial creativity, I anticipate a near future where women and men are truly equal across the board. Maybe I am just a naïve dreamer at best – Prosthe Anthonious opithen te Anthonious messe te Chimaira.
Regards,
Anthony
(reply to this comment) |
| | From monkeyfart
Thursday, September 26, 2002, 08:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
Anthony,
At first you "fail to see my point", however then go on to make better sense of the point I was trying to make, and quite conclusively. I must admit my view point is probably less likely to be a learned one per say and more just a product of candid thoughts ideas or opinions which I have tried to make sense of or are coming to terms with.
You have requested I "tell all the women who visit this website what you think woman’s place is in society, in general."- To be honest I don't have a theory as such which would cover all women in society. It would first also need to be defined what "society" is comprised of; ie: Are women in "The Family" considered a part of "society" seeing as they have chosen to separate themselves from much of it? I would agree with you that as the world progresses (I hope this vague term is understood to include technology, mental attitudes, moral acceptance, etc) the chances of women statistically and fairly equaling men in currently lacking venues such as power will increase.
Using the example of Margaret Thatcher, who proved her ability as a fine prime minister, as good as any male in the position. Then of course in ancient history, Cleopatra who ruled perhaps more skillfully than any other pharaoh.- Women have shown their ability to rule, however not many have been given the chance. I think that generally women want to be considered equals to men when they are so, not when they are not. When a woman is paid less for doing the same work as a man it is unfair, it doesn't take a genius to reach that conclusion. I personally think that the ideas that permeate the treatment of women by men is derived from their own concept or personal experience of "the mother" figure. Although this would be different for everyone I think many do not see the mother as "the provider", instead more the comforter, or ultimate under-stander. That concept is not set in stone obviously as I have seen families where the woman provides for the family and the man assumes the household chores and more child related duties. I personally think it's up to individuals what works best for them provided that the freedom and opportunity to do so is there.
One thing I noticed though about "the family" upbringing is some of the feministic attitudes which seemed to come from some "FF'ers". Far from acting degraded many of the "FF'er" women seemed to act like they had the "highest calling" of all and almost seemed to show contempt for their husbands. I totally agree that in a normal circumstance a man doing that would be nothing more than the lowest form of pimp, however I always felt my father was trying to be sacrificial and was hurting and that it was more my mother who felt an actual desire to achieve some higher feeling of self worth. To me a pimp would be devoid of any personal feelings. Yet of course, those to whom my mom was "ministering" would not have understood that, and it seemed my mom never tried to relay that notion either. In relating sympathetic feelings to my father I am in no way condoning his involvement either, "FF'ing" to me is anathema, contrary to every possible form of morality and therefore whatever pain he experienced should be considered self-inflicted.
To me when leaving “The Family”, I have to also partly re-invent my own experience of “the mother” figure. I have no intention of equating the experiences of women from “The Family” as a genuine experience or yardstick by which to understand or relate to ordinary women outside of it. Personally, when I hear of the barbaric treatment of women by people in parts of the world it gets me angry. Yet I find it interesting that women from some of these same parts of the world come to modern countries and often seclude themselves to the company of those from their country of origin and wish to have little to do with those outside of their own ethnic/ religious community. Many women also have a fascination for guys with a macho/ imposing attitude, yet revel in so called modern ideals of women’s equality, again contradicting themselves by their own actions. Of course I cannot generalize the entire female population however I would say that when women in general develop an understanding of what is fair, correlating their freedoms with social/ moral responsibilities they will in turn be treated more fairly.
Since I remain completely confused as to the true nature of women, my undeveloped opinions are certainly subject to continuous change, which will hopefully be toward the better understanding and greater respect of their gender.
Peace.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Bella
Wednesday, September 25, 2002, 17:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
Perhaps I am a little more skeptical than you Anthony, for although I like your argument (very much in fact) I do not foresee men and women being equal across the board in the near future. I mean, unless I am the first female to grace the United States' oval office *wink*, I do not believe that I will see a women elected as U.S. President in my life time. Do you? (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From pharmaboy
Friday, September 27, 2002, 03:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
Craven, maybe you should come visit SA(great parties, Crystal[mmm!]). I thought the same way till I came here. SA up until the late '80s was comparable to Germany or Japan as far as industry and economy goes. You could leave your car unlocked and go shopping. Mess??? LOL! they were selling arms to both Iraq and the US! The SA Rand was 1:1 to the english pound, & 1:2 to the Dollar.
Come here instead of reading slanted history books and watching that terrorist(Mandela) on TV talk about internet for africans, fucking hell, these people are dying of AIDS/cholera/malaria & that dumb fuck is talking about internet?
You see, it's not just skin color, we are different races, & that dosen't mean better/worse races. Now school is free for them & SA is doing worse. Democracy is a western/white form of government, & so is capitalism, it dosen't work for black Africans. Just putting them in school with white guys clothing & teaching them how wonderfull Mandela is won't help them. They hate us passionately & it's not only over the past, it's an inferiority complex & they try their best to dress/act/speak like us, & screwing/raping a white chick is their greatest fantasy.
They don't want our white society, they want to go back to tribal lifestyle: slitting each others thoats and raping each others children. Sad but true.
I was completely anti-racist till I came here, then I realized that I had a misconception of the word "racism", it's not what you think usually: KKK, Hitler, ethnic cleansing.....It's recognizing that were are not all the same just different colors, we as different as a jack russel is from a dobermann!(reply to this comment) |
| | From JoeH
Thursday, October 03, 2002, 20:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
once again you echo Berg in your fanatical far out views that may contain small seeds of truth, but which no one listens too because of your extremism. I admit that I know very little about South African history, but you're not really enlightening us here. Can you post some facts to back up your outlandish claims?(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Craven loves history
Thursday, October 03, 2002, 21:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
The baby raping is about some repulsive cases that were subject to media hyperbole. Some witch doctors said raping infants (I don't remember if he said white infants in particular) would cure some STDs.
Of course this is just used to justify one's prejudices and has nothing to do with race. The defining characteristic of those that raped the babies was IGNORANCE not color.
About the tribal stuff, white SOuth Africans are quick to assume that the country went to pot after blacks got out from under Apartheid.
Some of the less racist of them admit that Mandela was a good leader but say that now that he's gone the blacks are sending SA to hell. They of course think that "even blacks preferred it under white rule".
They conveniently forget the despicable acts of the apartheid, the testing diseases of blacks in experimenst that make the Tuskeegee pale in comparison.
I could go on but have a character limit to worry about.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Craven has a ps
Thursday, October 03, 2002, 21:17
(Agree/Disagree?)
PS
I understand what you are deriving your racism from. It's distasteful to see both the way some minorities conduct themselves as well as the imitation of them by other races.
But that has nothing to do with race it's circumstantial. Racial minority and dignified behavior are not mutually exclusive (yeah I over-use that phrase but like logical word-play) See through appearances and look at facts. I appeal to your logic here and hope I'm not wasting my time.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Bella
Thursday, October 03, 2002, 16:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
Person - Although I think I understand what you mean by your post, I'm wondering if you clearly understand the idea of "racism."
Lets look at a definition of racism, and see if perhaps you meant something else, here goes:
Racism: making the race of other people a factor in attitudes or actions concerning them. Racism implies a belief in the superiority of one's own race.
(Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2002)
Perhaps you meant something more like a certain amount of "cultural diversity" is a healthy thing, etc ...?
Given the very simple definition above, I do not see how racism at any level, is a healthy thing. However, I do believe that the feeling of likeness, support, etc. to ones own ethnic background is indeed possitive.
Perhaps I am wrong in my assumption, of your post. I am not trying to put words in your mouth, only trying to make sure we all understand the idea of the word "racism" before we form our opinions.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Auty
Friday, October 04, 2002, 00:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
This is an interesting topic. My life in the Family taught me not to be racist towards race, but rather towards lifestyles: i.e. systemite, sodomite, goat, sheep etc. I never had a problem with others of different race but had a hard time getting over my mom's gay friend when I first left.
Then again, we were "IT" and the best of the best of the best, so perhaps the teachings have carried on into not only actions and lifestyles, but ethnic & cultures as well. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Anthony
Thursday, October 03, 2002, 13:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
Pharmaboy, just wondering does your "analysis" of the kaffir applies to the black "race" as a whole, or only to those in SA? I myself am against Affirmative Action since it only affirms a reversal of discrimination; and no matter which way it turns, it is still discrimination. Is all discrimination morally wrong? I think the best answer is "it depends" on many factors in each given equation.
You said "If you ask me if I'm racist, i'll say yes, but I NEVER treat someone different because they're black, be it the friendly gas attendant to the lady at revenue service that knows f**kall about her job to the tea lady at work( make my own coffee actually, I'm not handicapped)."
So I ask you now, what is the point of being racist if not to treat your un-equals different than you equals? If I were a racist, you bet I would treat those like me in a superior fashion to those I consider beneath me/us. I am not a "racist" but I am what I term a culturalist, because, while one cannot change what we call race, one can change her/his culture, and some cultures are clearly inferior to others.
You also said that "[Racism]... It's recognizing that were are not all the same just different colors, we as different as a jack russel is from a dobermann!"
So, what I'm trying to do is see how that applies to all the blacks in the world. In other words, I've met blacks from Europe, several diffrent countries in Africa, and from the USA, and apart from similar skin colors (various shades due to intermingling with various other "races"), they were all as diferent from, as you say, "a jack russel is from a dobermann."
Anyway, eagerly anticipating yours and others' thoughts.
Regards,
Anthony
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From monger
Friday, September 27, 2002, 05:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
Pharmaboy, although this is way too excessive, generalized, and yeah incredibly racist for me, I'm kind of in the middle as I do agree that this DOES apply to many people there, but never a whole race in general. I've lived in Africa myself, and I know women that've lived in South Africa, but MY time in Africa actually helped me lose a tiny bit of racism that I had up until then.
On the other hand, if I had lived somewhere like South Africa or Zimbabwe for example, I very well might be agreeing with you to a larger degree. I have also seen, but mainly just heard, all kinds of terrible stories from there firsthand too, such as 14 year old soldiers in Sierre Leon splitting open a pregnant woman over a bet on the child’s gender that came out to about $0.50. Nasty shit. But you also have to recognize that even within Africa there are many very different races, many many of which are incredibly hospitable, noble, & peaceful by nature such as the people I spent a year with. Just my $0.02(reply to this comment) |
| | From pharmaboy's too lazy to logon
Friday, September 27, 2002, 06:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yes, I was over-generalizing. My closest friend(almost like a godfather) is a black american & you can't say all blacks are blood-thirsty apes, as I myself have met many highly intelligent black people. Actually, I have noticed that many white christians here, that talk openly against racism, etc. Are the ones that treat blacks & coloureds different from fellow whites, I.E. kissing my ass & then swearing at a black for nothing(when on one's around, of course)!! If you ask me if I'm racist, i'll say yes, but I NEVER treat someone different because they're black, be it the friendly gas attendant to the lady at revenue service that knows fuckall about her job to the tea lady at work( make my own coffee actually, I'm not handicapped).
I hate it when some left-wing european tells me to blame all the suffering in africa on the whites, and even if I live here and tell them a different side they flatly refuse to see it & start calling me a nazi(the WORST insult in europe!)
Some blacks I know are so honest you could trust them your CC pin #, these I respect fully, then you have the 15 yr old that rapes his 18 month old sister! (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Jules
Wednesday, September 25, 2002, 18:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
Jersey, I agree with you. However the problem is that unfortunately some people still consider gender part of the qualifications. Men are sometimes seen as automatically more qualified just because they are men. The same is true with age, as an example. Sometimes some people see young people as incompentent just because of their youth, without even looking at their abilities. In some rare industries though (such as my own) youth is seen as an asset, and the discrimination goes more against the over 40's. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From JoeH
Wednesday, September 25, 2002, 16:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
I thought I made it pretty clear that I wasn't referring to all women, was that a typo? The rest of your argument is great, hopefully society will progress enough and leave behind these gender roles that men and women from reaching their full potential. Have you ever heard Domestic Bestiary by Brianda Domecq? It's a great piece of feminist literature (short stories actually) that don't make statements but ask questions and make people think.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From monkeyfart
Friday, September 20, 2002, 20:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
Joe,
"Emotional slut", Emotionally dependant, etc - I agree, especially noted when one leaves the cult, perhaps the feeling of loneliness & confusion mixed with a desire to be wanted or accepted by someone, not really caring who at the time. But similar feelings probably happen to those who say have been in a relationship for a long period & don't know how to be alone depending on where they were in the previous relationship, - dependant before, dependant again.
However, as far as "gold-diggin bitches" go, aren't they the ultimate realists? I mean they've substituted the whole emotional thing with material wealth, so long as they know it I can't see how they're being used, more being the user, benefiting from deception of sorts.
(reply to this comment) |
| | from Auty
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 01:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
I came across this article today regarding exotic dancing, thought it was pretty interesting: http://news.mpr.org/features/200203/04_mainstreet_sex-m/dance.shtml
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from Jules
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 22:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
This is a very interesting question and I have been reading over the varying opinions on this issue. Some things are more difficult to write about than others and this topic is a painful one for me. I should start by saying that these are simply my opinions on these issues. I have personal experience with these things, and rather than philosophical debate or academic analysis, this is where my views on this come from. I don’t talk much about this phase of my life, because it’s still difficult to do so.
When I first left the Family, I had just turned 20. I was in North America for the first time, where I knew no one and nothing. All my family were still in the group, and I ended up in a homeless shelter with only the clothes on my back to my name. I had no education, no skills, no money and nowhere to go. I had been raped and became pregnant from that and had to spend the night on the street because the shelter had a curfew and my abortion was scheduled for early morning.
I decided that no matter what I had to do, I would never be this vulnerable ever again. I called an escort agency and asked them for a job. My very first night as a “working girl” I was sent out as the entertainment for a stag party to a group of cops. There were about 35 men, and just me and I was terrified. I did what the Family taught me so well, and that was to shut down and play a role. I was a cheeky, sexy, very naughty girl. I found it amazing that as I played that role, I seemed to become it. The men didn’t see the fear, insecurity and desperation. In their eyes I was a desirable, confident, sensual woman. At the end of the night I went home with a new understanding of my abilities as well as real hard cash.
For the next two years I worked alternatively as a call girl and exotic dancer. It was quick money, but certainly not easy work. I was very sheltered in the Family, and suddenly found myself in life in the fast lane. A lot of my clients were well known politicians and celebrities, and it seemed very unreal to me a lot of the time. It was strang that the specific combination of raw sexuality and naïvety seemed to be very attractive to men.
There were so many times when my feelings would begin to surface and threaten the fantasy I was supposed to be providing. It’s not sexy to cry or be angry or say anything too penetrating or intelligent. I was supposed to laugh at their jokes, and find them fascinating. Be incredible, but not intimidating. Don’t be too witty, and definitely don’t be smart. All the Family’s training was perfect for this role. Sexuality was about fulfilling desires and not an emotional connection with someone you care about.
Strip clubs vary a lot I know, but where I am, they are all run by organized crime. There were 15 year old girls fresh from Russia and Bulgaria who had their passports held by the men who brought them over. They were being asked to pay off $200,000 “fees” before being let go. In the changing rooms every night I would find girls covering up bruises with makeup, from where their boyfriends had beat them the night before for not making enough money. All of the club owners dealt to the girls, and if I didn’t “party” I was blacklisted, and would end up being fired. If a bouncer or owner found me attractive and I didn’t reciprocate, I could be in serious danger. I danced in a “high class” gentleman’s club, and to get there I needed an agent, who would take a large cut. Most dancers here are “paid” well below minimum wage by the club, and make their money in table dances. I would have go from man to man flirting and trying to entice them to pay me to dance for them. To me it felt like postering in a thong.
I loved dancing itself though. To be on a stage and see the desire in the eyes of the men made me feel like a goddess. It was incredibly seductive and creative, and that was fun. I had a number of costumes and themes and I have a wicked imagination and was able to let that run wild. I loved that part of it.
Escort services here are also run by organised crime, but as a call girl most of my time was not spent under the supervision of the owner. I actually got to know some of my clients, and it was a different dynamic without them having to prove anything in front of their male friends. What it boiled down to was also providing the fantasy though. I was the real live pornography, who looked, said, felt like and did what they wanted. I think we are experts at reading people, and that was what I did and what I projected back. The agency charged an outrageous fee per hour, and took 60-75% of what I earned. I tried to go independent, but if it hadn’t been for the protection of some influential clients, I would have been made an example of for trying to do this. It was dangerous as well, and I was brutally attacked a number of times. I remember being asphyxiated by one of the men, and as everything went black I realised I would probably die right then, and the last thing I would see would be the flushed face of this horrible person.
To be a sexually desirable person is powerful, and having been vulnerable, unwanted and helpless most of my life, it was an intoxicating feeling. At some point though I just couldn’t fake it any more. When I was sure I was alone, I would cry from loneliness. No one knew the real me, and I didn’t know if anyone could love me or want me for who I really was, not how I made them feel. I went by the name Laura, and I felt like she was someone who I sent out, while I was able to not be there.
For first year I did not do any drugs, and drank infrequently. As time went on though, I just couldn’t deal with my growing contempt for myself and for the men I met. I developed a cocaine addiction, which helped to block out the pain initially, but also seemed to make the line between Laura and myself more unclear. I never expected to live into my 20’s, and I didn’t really care whether I lived or died.
The longer I stayed in this lifestyle the more marginalized I felt. Sitting in a hotel lobby at 7 in the morning waiting for my ride home, and watching the people in suits and families start their day, I felt overwhelming shame for who I was, and that I could never be part of the “real world”. I finally reached the edge of despair, and decided that my life as it was was not worth living, and that I would try everything in my power to gain skills that would enable to me to have other options, and if I could not, I would end it. I didn’t know if I was deserving of the things I wanted and everyone else seemed to have, but I thought I would try.
It’s been nearly 5 years since I left all that behind me. I am successful and established in my career now, but I still haven’t really reclaimed my body or my sexuality. I went through a number of abusive and hurtful relationships, and finally decided that until I could figure it out, I would just put that part of myself on hold, so at least I wouldn’t be doing myself or anyone else any more harm. It’s now been 2 years since I was in a relationship.
I don’t really know what my point is, perhaps just that for me it was part of my journey and a step towards freedom and empowerment. In the Family I had no control over my sexuality, and in the sex trade I at least had some. Being orphaned by the Family and left with no options or way to survive still makes me angry. Even more than that, the systematic and intentional breakdown of my identity as a woman at some crucial stages in my development, left me vulnerable to exploitation. Life goes on, but the scars still remain.
(reply to this comment)
| From Craven hopes a 500 won't smack down this post
Thursday, September 26, 2002, 04:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
Jules,
Ever notice how scar tissue is tougher than the rest?
I'd not trade my pridian hardships for the world it enriched the content of my character and made me who I am.
I'm glad your life has improved and hope that it can only get better. Your brain is your prime feature and now that your employment is based on that things can only get better.
Shine on.
---
It's at times like this that I seethe at the hallelujahs. How many don't make it out of their microcosmic hell and fall by the wayside? Makes me want to cry.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Anthony
Friday, September 20, 2002, 18:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
Jules, the first comment on this article came from Jerzy, telling me that I was brave for posting it. Well, I must say that you are the brave one for sharing your rather painful experience. It seems that there are both good and bad experiences associated with everything in life, due in part to circumstances, outlook and a myriad of other factors. However, as in nature, patterns are often visible and can be found in many cases. And there seems to be a pattern associated with the “dancing life”, or profession, as some would call it.
I cannot stress it enough, not all situations are the same; however, based on my interviews and non-academic research over the last 5 years, it is my conclusion that many strippers/dancers share the sentiments you expressed at the end of you saga.
I know that many more girls will sooner or later leave the cult, and at least some will be faced with similar sets of choices and crossroads. I ‘m sure you can appreciate my intentions of showing them that there are paths of less disquieting and distressing transition out of that morbid and useless cult to the “real world”. Of course, this also applies to guys as well.
I ‘m still laboring to amass my personal fortune; there are several reasons for this. The first is pretty obvious, being poor sucks big time, and I am a very materialistic person. The second, or third, reason would be so that I can set up a fund for ex-COG children who make the right decision to leave that dangerous cult. Hopefully, none of them will ever have to experience what you, others and I have. I cannot even compare my bad experiences to some of yours; however, it hasn’t been a bed a roses either, not initially.
Sincere regards,
Anthony
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from jpmagero
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 12:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
I've never really understood what a feminist is, but that doesn't mean that I am against womens right to equal oportunity based on performance/qualifications.
As far as the difference, in principle, between FFing and stripping/exotic dancing, I think it boils down to this:
FFing was done under the false pretense of witnessing, when in actual fact it was done for money and influence in most cases.
Stripping, dancing etc. is simply a way to support yourself. How unorthodox or (im)proper depends on each one individually.
That's how I see it.
But I do have a question for the ladies, some have mentioned that something they disliked about the family (being women) was that often they were simply valued because of their physical beauty, how attractive they were etc.. How does this differ from exotic dancing, on your self image, that is. I realize you make the choice, but it is still using your sex appeal to make a living or survive. Does that make any sense?
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From cm
Tuesday, September 17, 2002, 13:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
JP,
Let's not pretend that the COG and exotic dancing are the only cultures that extol female beauty. Actresses, reporters, models, wives, and yes dancers use their beauty to survive. Good looking people can leverage their looks to get what they want. And this is not only true for women.
In the words of Freud--"Anatomy is destiny."
I personally find nothing objectionable to people using their looks to get what they want. You may say that it is not something that they earned, but would you say that about people who naturally high IQ's? We all use the resources we have to get to the top on the anthill.
The difference is that women in the "system" have the option to use their brains as well. Women (and men) who are aware of the fading nature of beauty, can use their brains and their bodies to acheive their goals. I know many dancers who go to school and actively use their brains but pay the bills with their bodies (as do construction workers, hourly workers and models). I also know many more dancers who do not use their brains at all--but that is their prerogative.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From jpmagero
Tuesday, September 17, 2002, 14:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
I realize it comes down to choice and further as you mentioned, the COG and exotic dancers are not the only cultures to exploit beauty. I merely asked what differences do they feel on their self-image if they are only recognized for their physical attribute, beautiful as they may be.
I am not trying to put the profession down, simply ask what they feel and how the two are different.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | from cm
Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 18:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
Anthony, Anthony,
It seems fitting that I emerge from a long absence on this site by entering this polemic with you.
What you hoped to accomplish by engaging in this line of questioning I do not know (actually I have an idea but I do not want to write a book here).
To begin with, you ask "what is the difference between stripping/exotic dancing and FFing, in PRINCIPLE?" Surely, you must have read enough Noam Chomsky or Wittengenstein by now to know that to discuss the difference in principle of anything is a generally pointless excersise, a practice in semiotics. Therefore, I can only assume that the point of your question is to derride the women who work as strippers/entertainers/exotic dancers.
You are comparing them not to FFers
but to prostitutes and asking "what is the difference".
I have several choices here in the direction of this thesis the
first is the obvious and prosaic argument that "in principle" there is no diffierence between you and a prositute--but anyone who is versed in the writings of Marx or Debord can do that.
Instead I will offer a response that attempts to dig at the deeper issues of postmodern sexuality and feminism. I will borrow heavily from "Seduction" by Jean Baudrillard. (This will not be complete to anyone who has not had the pleasure of reading it.)
My claim is that stripping is not in any way part of the "sex industy" but is instead in direct opposition to it.
Stripping is not about sex, it is about seduction.
"...the (strippers) ability to seduce comes straight from parody-a parody of sex by its over-signification...
Pornography states this clearly. A trilogy of spread, sensualism and signification, pornography promotes female sexual pleasure in so exageratted a manner, only in order to better bury the uncertainty that hovers over the "black continent". Pornograhic
simulation: nudity is never anything but an extra sign. Nudity veiled by clothing functions as a secret, ambivalent referent. Unveiled, it surfaces as a sign and returns to the circulation of signs: nudity de-sign."
Herein lies the difference.
I could write all night about this but I have already taken up enough space.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from Nan
Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 11:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
Exploitation, in my opinion is when an individual is used for someone else's benefit. I think a lot has to do with choice, as well. Is the woman who we're speaking of acting of her own free will? Is she enjoying what she is doing? Or is she being coerced or used or exploited?
It's really a gray area because a woman can be exploited just as much in a monogamous relationship or abusive marriage by a man who attempts to control her and degrade her. Whereas, a woman who dances in a club can be acting much more of her own free will. And there are women who become involved with me for mere material advantage. They receive gifts, trips and money from someone they call their boyfriend. How is that much different from escorting? It's just receiving a material benefit from just one man rather than several. Again, I think it all cames down to choice. I don't think it is wrong or degrading or immoral for a woman to become involved with a man or to dance or remove her clothes or do whatever she so chooses if it is her choice and she is acting of her own free will.
I think it's really just an anti-feminist mentality that calls a woman a slut or whore for her sexual activities but calls a man a stud for his "conquests." I don't hear a lot of complaints about Chip-n-Dales dancers.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | from thepersoniamnow
Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 09:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
I totally and wholeheartedly agree with Anthony, so perspective and intelligent!.....NOT!!!!
I have stripper friends. They have dignity and self respect.
They like what they do and it gives them a rush....whatever I don`t understand it, but its not my place to judge.
The only losers are the pervs in the crowd!
(reply to this comment)
| from Regi
Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 08:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thank you for you comment, Anthony! I completely agree.
I think that anything that uses women as mere sex objects is an insult to all the other qualities women possess.
Of course, it's a matter of choice. Many people work at horrid jobs just for money and stripping might be an appealing option to some girls. But I for one, would prefer to work for 8-10 dollars an hour at a job that uses some of my intelectual skills than to have men (and pervs) staring at me. It is simply degrading!
(reply to this comment)
| From Auty
Sunday, September 15, 2002, 08:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
But this is the CHOICE you make, as you stated. If you feel it is a degrading enviroment then it is best that you not work in it. I have no problem with it. Like I stated, I am in control (unlike answering to a boss who pays me 8-10 dollars a day), I am degrading the men that come into my club by using my body and intellectual skills to get into their wallets (that is talent my dear). Perhaps you should visit a club near your house, you would be surprised to find out how smart these women are. And perhaps you would leave giggling knowing that the men who just dropped several hundreds of dollars on a pretty face are really the dumb-dumbs in that world.
I just don't understand if I'm making a choice to take my clothes off . . .how would that be degrading? If I was forced to take my clothes off (like the FFers) then that would be a different story & the word degrading would fit.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Auty
Sunday, September 15, 2002, 09:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
Let me clarify. At the time (when I was just new out of the Family) dancing was one of the only options as far as survival & catching up. But hey, I started to really enjoy the lifestyle it afforded me & that's where the choice came in.
I don't know what you do for a living Jerserygirl, but I bet I "frequent" the clubs a lot more than you, seeing I work in one. I am not anxious to discriminate against those who have a "normal" job, I am anxious to let folks know that just because I don't, doesn't mean that I'm any less of a person than you. I am tired of the stereotypes and the buzz words (degrading for instance) that some feminists & sexists love to use to defend their job vrs. my job. It seems that what I'm hearing is that "we're normal, you are not" and that in itself is ignorance speaking.
Again, JMHO.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Nan
Sunday, September 15, 2002, 11:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
I've wanted to say something about dancing in adult clubs for awhile. I, personally, don't like the word stripping. It seems to have a more negative connotation, like the difference between police officer and cop.
I've known lots of women in collage who worked as dangers to help themselves along. They were bright, interesting, strong and beautiful women. They used an adult club as a source of income. They were not used by it. I respect these women as much as I respect a female attorney or doctor.
What is deplorable is when women are treated like objects, not because of who they are or what they do, but because of the mentality of those who would attempt to stereotype them or mistreat them or verbally insult them. There are those men out there. We've all seen them, the yucky guy that makes some lewd comment at us as we walk out of the supermarket. The guy with the horrible pick-up line in a bar. I've personally thrown a drink in the face of such a man. It has little to do with what you are wearing or what you do for a living or where you are going. People like that, perverts, they're going to treat any woman like that based on who they are, not who the woman is. A gentleman or a man with just the slightest bit a of class is going to treat a woman respectfully in any situation, whether she is his waitress, doctor, attorney or dancer.
It is sad, as well, that some women choose to try to tear other women down based on what they do for a living. I don’t know what motivates them. It must be insecurity. They might be trying to make themselves feel better about themselves by demeaning other women. I’ve known my fair share of bitchy, low class, professional women with little character. I’ve also known a few dancers who were really great people. So, personally, I judge people by who they are, how they treat other people, what they care about and who they care for, rather than how they earn a living.
Further, true feminist women, those who support ending sexism and exploitation of women, do not insult other women who choose to be dancers or even pose for Playboy. A true feminist supports a woman’s freedom to choose, to choose who to marry, where to work, where to go to school and what to wear. A real feminist doesn’t support women’s equality only when it falls within her personal value system. I personally have no interest in politics or ever running for office, but I support those women who do. I also don’t ever plan to be a dancer or remove any of my clothes, except in the privacy of my home, but I whole-heartedly support the beautiful women who choose to. That is true equality, when a woman can has the opportunities and choice to select any profession she chooses.
I realize I am generalizing feminist theory, as there are many feminist factions. I’ve studied feminism in college and read lots of feminist theory, including feminism in the law. But, what I’m talking about is my personal take on what feminism should be and what true equality is.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From monkeyfart
Sunday, September 15, 2002, 17:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
Considering myself a true feminist, Nan, but still looking for ultimate feminist enlightenment maybe you could answer some of these questions to help me in my quest:
1) Why is it that you don't hear male strippers/ prostitutes complaining about how degraded they are?
2) Why is it that women feel so much better "degrading themselves" than getting someone else to do it for them? - Obviously, I'm all for freedom & self control, but I can't see how their really being forced to do anything if they were going to do it anyway. (Like if I was a burger maker by trade & Mcdonalds hired me & was a tough taskmaster).
3)Why can't a "true feminist" be concerned and disapprove of a low moral standard of another stripper/ prostitute who may be affecting her own children's attitudes about life and possibly even harming herself?
4)Why is it that a guy who rips off a woman is a "male chauvinist woman basher", yet when a girl does the same to a guy she's "standing up for herself"?
5) Why is a guy who tries to shield his woman from the evils of the world an overprotective control freak, yet when he lets her do her own thing he's an uncaring male who's only really interested in one thing?
These comprise only the beginning of my deep searching questions on my way to attaining ultimate Feministic Nirvana status of true enlightenment. So please help O' wise Nancy sensei, I must have this holy grail of which you speak!
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Nan
Monday, September 16, 2002, 06:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think someone else on this website said it before, something to the effect of, “Why is it that you only attempt to tear down, insult and criticize rather than making any contribution of your own?” Have you noticed the trend? You come up with the most off-point, irrelevant and patently stupid comments which have little or nothing to do with what another person has said. I personally think you even outdo 7*. At least, he makes a point which someone can understand, although they may disagree.
In this case, I cannot even begin to respond because nothing you stated has the slightest bit to do with my comment. I never said female dancers degrade themselves. I said that degrading of women has to do with men with little class and how they treat women, not with the women or how they choose to earn a living. Further, you’re over-broad sweeping generalization that “strippers/prostitute” are one and the same just shows your ignorance. And then you go on to say that such “strippers/prostitutes” all “affect” their children or “harm” themselves. You must have so very little experience in the world to make such a ridiculous stereotype. And your whole rant that women need either protectors or a man who “lets her do her own thing” reeks of the Family. Relationships are partnerships. It’s not about a man allowing the woman to “do her own thing” or not. One does not control the other. But, I digress because your comment, again, is completely off point.
Your ultra-critical mind which seems to only aim at attacking people doesn’t do a very good job at staying focused or analyzing a very simple topic. You ramble on and on, making little or no sense. I, also, have yet to read anything on this site in which you have to offer anything but criticism. Further, I think the Family should have you back. They deserve a person like you. It would be a fitting punishment for them. I’d be willing to settle all my claims against them in exchange for knowing they had to contend with you for even a year. But, alas, the law has banned cruel and unusual punishment.
By the way, monkey, the pseudo-lawyer, slander is spoken defamation. If you write something deflamatory, it is not slander. It is libel. Just thought I’d point that out seeing as you seem to think your such a legal scholar attempting to give not one, but two, attorneys a lecture in the law. Fortunately, for us and the rest of the world, the only jurisdiction where your theories and ideas are law is in the imaginary jurisdiction of monkeyfart. (reply to this comment) |
| | From monkeyfart
Wednesday, September 18, 2002, 00:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
You just can’t help yourself can you Nancy!
Really, I really should‘nt bother responding to your bullshit reply. However for reasons such as lets see, you putting words in my mouth to the extent of complete misrepresentation, insinuating I am not fit for life outside "the family", and for being a general BITCH - Pain in the ass, I think I will! Let me just say my comment was written in jest (or did you really think I was on a quest for “ultimate Feministic Enlightenment”, and think YOU would be the one I’d ask if I was) and was not necessarily in direct reply to your prior comment. As far as staying focused on analysing a simple topic, please you reek of hypocrisy! You digress to digging up month old discussions on the accurate legal definition of libel vs slander and then point the finger at me.
1) Comments equating me to 7* or worse are pretty worthless coming from a Janet Reno emulator be like yourself.
- She's most likely one of your hero's so that bit of slur debris should fall harmlessly beside you. You like her are a BITCH and your bitch attitudes are so one sided, biased and derogatory I could spit.
2) I never said that a stripper is the same as a prostitute. I also never said that females COMPLAIN of being degraded for being so, I only questioned whether males do.
3) In the 2nd point of my original comment my reference to "women degrading themselves" referred specifically to employment in the sex trade as a prostitute, and my question was entirely economical: self employment vs employee. - Thus my parallel to Macdonald’s.
4) I never said what you have said I did that "strippers/ prostitutes all affect their children and harm themselves". - Complete and utter misrepresentation which came from you. I said exactly this:
"WHY can't a "true feminist" be concerned and disapprove of a low moral standard of another stripper/ prostitute who MAY BE affecting her own children's attitudes about life and POSSIBLY even harming herself?" - That was a comment in direct relation to your prior comments, portions of which stated: "true feminist women, those who support ending sexism and exploitation of women, do not insult other women who choose to be dancers or even pose for Playboy." and, "A real feminist doesn’t support women’s equality only when it falls within her personal value system". - Hence my question of your idea that a "true feminist" does not question the personal value system or morals of another prostitute/ stripper who MAY be affecting herself or her children badly and who may in fact not be providing equal or appropriate treatment to her children allowing them to be disadvantaged emotionally, psychologically , mentally or otherwise.
5) As for your hysterical reaction to point number 5 of my initial comment, I expected as much. Funny thing, that question was copied verbatim from a chain e-mail forwarded to me (in good humour) by a female, and yet you have said exactly this “YOUR WHOLE RANT that women need either protectors or a man who “lets her do her own thing” reeks of the Family.” Firstly, the fact that a father, husband or boyfriend is or wishes to be protective of his family, wife or girlfriend is not necessarily a bad thing and secondly, that idea certainly should not be automatically equated to be from any “family” influence. I do agree entirely though with your negative sentiments toward over protectiveness or one-sided control in a relationship.
Now to end this lovely discussion on a “high note”, and since I thought of you when I read the following it seemed only be fair to add a little science/ humour here considering all the legal shit which comes from you:
Are you aware of the discovery in the human body of a nerve that connects the eyeballs to the asshole?
It's called the anal-optic nerve. It is responsible for giving people a shitty outlook on life.
If you don't believe me, pull a hair from your ass and see if it doesn't bring a tear to your eye.
Now in closing I thought I’d point out that research has proven single fathers to be better parents than single mothers & I just wondered if you knew that fact.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Auty
Sunday, September 15, 2002, 13:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
Absolutely not personal. I don't know you well enough to discuss personal matters. I appreciate your candor & the mature attitude you take in discussing your points. I in no way wanted to start a "mud fight" with you & apologize if you were given that impression. I enjoy intellegent conversations. It just seems that when this subject is brought up so many folks have an opinion that has been formed with out knowledge of the subject.
Like the saying goes "walk a mile in her platforms".
Peace(reply to this comment) |
| | from Mercy
Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 06:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
1.strippers get paid!!
2.strippers get paid!!!
3.who gives a fuck!?
Ant you have a vague point there. Make it clearer so these people can go do something better with their time. :p
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from Ian
Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 02:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think Auty said it best, I could repeat everything she said but...there is definitly a difference.
The question was asked "in principle" so maybe there is not alot of difference really. Using sex or sex appeal to attain a goal? I think Nietzsche supposed in either "Twilight of the Idols" or "The Anti-Christ" that there is no difference between a house wife and a prostitute.
What really feeds the fire here is that so many girls that came out of the group work in some way or another in the sex business and anyone that doesn't has some kind of an attitude like they have taken a straighter path to Nirvana or whatnot.
The question you should be asking yourself is why you think it's so degrading? Do you know any dancers? I do! They all love it, and they make good money. If you want to be degraded, go work a corporation for about 8 to 10 bucks an hour, then run your mouth about dancers degrading themselves. Until then, pray you get the chance to sleep with one (or two) and then you might appreciate their art a little more.
"Another fine post by Ian"
(reply to this comment)
| From Auty
Sunday, September 15, 2002, 08:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
I have to agree with you Ian. It's unfortunate that many women that left the F. have worked in the sex industry at some point in their lives. When I left I had the clothes on my back and a small suitcase. I didn't know what a social security card was, I had no "skills" I had no car, no money etc. My mother (whom I love to death) looked at me and said "Autumn, you are 19 years old. You're an adult! What would you like to do?" Well, gosh darn it, I didn't know! So I took the bus to a little retail job for several months, just barely surviving. Taking off a piece (or several pieces) of clothing didn't seem like such a bad option for what I would be making. In fact, I was "trained" very well in this field in the F.
It would be an interesting poll to start.
In regards to Principle, I still believe that there is a large difference. In a club you are in a "fantasy" w/o sex. With a prostituted you are dropping your pants . . .unless you are with a high class prostituted, then you might get a little of the "fantasy". There is a very large line that shouldn't be crossed between dancing and having intercourse. When you quoted "there is no difference between a prostitute or housewife" you might be right. Both are having sex. A dancer is not (or shouldn't be).
JMHO.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Mom Was an FFer
Sunday, September 15, 2002, 08:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
I very much agree with your last 2 paragraphs. But anything Neitzche said about sex I treat as especially suspect (on the other hand I agree with something he said about love). He was raised by domineering puritanical women (like Berg, but in ol Friedrich's case they were aunts I think) and I think like Berg he overreacted, just in a different direction -- imagining himself as some monkish Zarathustra. He once fell for a formidable woman whose "morals" were outrageous for the time (Rainer Maria Rilke, Paul Ree, and others fell). What was FN's solution? Propose marriage! Cute. She, of course, said no, and he rambled on.
Well, I don't really know what I said but I had fun saying it. Oh I know what I was trying to say, "Nietzche also had issues."(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from Auty
Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 18:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
Considering myself a “professional” (9+ years) dancer/stripper/entertainer, this question just begs for me to answer. Although I’ve gotten some slack on this site (particularly from Anthony) about this, I don’t mind throwing in my 2 cents as far as how I personally look at my “job”. I’d like to state here for all to see that I AM NOT ASHAMED OF WHAT I DO!!! Okay, now that that’s said, I would like to cover a couple subjects that were brought up.
Anthony, there IS a very large different between an entertainer and an FFer. But there is little or no difference between an FFer and a hooker with a pimp daddy. Please visit your local strip club with at least $20 in your pocket so you can sit down for approximately 20 minutes, enjoy a little bit of “bump and grind” and buy a beautiful women a drink to sit down and talk to you for about 5 minutes. Or you can bring in a little more and buy yourself a drink and perhaps be able to afford a notorious “lap/couch” dance (depending on what State you live in the “enjoyable” might vary). Now, once you’ve been able to experience an exotic dancer first hand, come back to this board and discuss what you’ve found out.
After your experience, go find a prostitute. You will then see a very large difference.
For instance, most exotic dancers are really beautiful women, most prostitutes are not (I’m talking percents here, not absolutes). Dancers work in a controlled environment with bouncers making sure that the Gents in the club are minding their P’s and Q’s. Prostitutes rarely have this type of protection. Most dancers are (as Lance stated) young women in their 20’s (although I have a beautiful 40 year old women working with us that racks in the cash hand-over-fist), college student types who actually “rent” space in a club (yes, we are independent contractors) to perform. We give the club a small amount of $’s to rent their space . . .but we take home the rest. Now, depending on the prostitute, whether she has a pimp or not this could or could not be the case.
Prostitutes, FFing, Exotic Dancer, okay, we all have one thing in common: we work in the sex industry. That’s not to say an exotic dancer is not having sex with her customers (she would be considered more of a prostitute than dancer) but, again, percentage wise, they are not.
Perhaps when I started dancing it was a “means to an end” & besides the fact of learning my “trade” in the Family, I realized that instead of being “tossed around” to man after man, I could actually choose. I had this conversation with my aunt (yes, my whole family knows what I do) about the degradation of women. I think what you don’t realize is that dancers are IN CONTROL, therefore it really is the opposites when it comes to men in our club. I hate to give away a little secret, as much as we enjoy your company, it really is all about making you feel like you are the only one on the face of the earth that matters to us so we can get into your wallets (not your pants). We give you little “hints” that perhaps if you’re “nice” enough to us you might get a little more than our company (it’s our job). In all honesty, the chances are you won’t. Most of the dancers I know are incredibly intelligent (although if you like the more dumb type we can “play” that as well). We have realized that we are not ashamed of who we are and are capable of using our biggest gift to our advantage. Unlike FFing, we are not “forced” to go out and work our trade, we choose what time we enter the club, what time we go home. We control our money, our lives.
As I stated above, I am not ashamed of what I have had to do to survive. Sure, there can be rough days and major assholes that walk in my club, but ya know, the majority of the men I have met are intelligent & kind. I have sat for many hours with a man and spoken of many interesting things. I have learned about LIFE, most of all in my club. That all men are not assholes, there are some out there that really appreciate an intelligent (or at least beautiful) women. It’s refreshing & for the most part fun. Like one of you said “we get paid to look beautiful and make money”!
My end goal is not to become some famous “featured” stripper that has watermelon size tits being paid to dance in club after club around the country. At the beginning of next year I will be entering a nursing program, hanging up my 7” platform shoes & my tongs for scrubs. I will miss them (kind of).
I have a little family, drive a nice car, take care of myself & my own very well. If the price for this is taking off a piece of clothing on a stage to have men “ooh and ahhh” over me, well gosh darn it, I guess that’s what one has to do to survive. I also would like to mention here that I am not judgmental in the least of any women that finds herself in a situation of survival. If “turning tricks” is the only way to feed yourself or your family, then HATS OFF TO YOU! I wish each of the girlies out there the best of luck in their ventures to find who they are and the realization that whatever they decide upon in life, if they’re happy . . .ROCK ON!
(reply to this comment)
| From Anthony
Tuesday, September 17, 2002, 12:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, you've made it pretty clear that you enjoy your lifestyle. I have not, nor will I tell you how to live your life. I will ask a question though. Would you be overjoyed if you daughter, sisters, mother and/or any other girl you are close to chose to do the same thing?
Of course, they are free to make their own choices, but would you encourage it, say, if your daughter wanted to follow in your foot steps, or dance steps?
Regards,
Anthony(reply to this comment) |
| | From Auty
Wednesday, September 18, 2002, 02:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
I would not be ashamed of my daughter. I would hope that at the time she is legal to decide what she would like to do with her life that I have enough money in my bank account to buy her first car for her. That I can pay for her college etc. I have plenty of photos she'll be looking at when she get's to be a little older, I will not hide the truth from my daughter of what I chose in a career at this time in my life.
It's funny you would ask about my sisters, I won't mention names, but on more than 1 occation they asked me to help them get a job in my club. Or suggested that "I should just start dancing with you Auty". My mom asks for some "exotic moves" so she can use them with her man. I started working with my best friend at the club. It doesn't bother me, don't know why it bothers you so much.
There Ain't No Shame.(reply to this comment) |
| | From porceleindoll
Wednesday, September 25, 2002, 19:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
Speaking up for my sister, we (I speak in agreement with the rest of her siblings) are not ashamed of her profession and are proud of her for being the first to leave the group, for braving a new life and carving out her spot. We know that she isn't a slut and what she does for work doesn't necessarily mean that's what she is as a person. I have thought about what I'd do if one of my children were to choose a lifestyle other than what I'd prefer for them, but when it comes down to it, I can only support their choices when they are of age to make them, even if it meant joining some crazy cult that would seek to destroy our relationship.
Of course, not every family is like that and each has its own standards and what it considers right and acceptable. Our family has braved through a lot together and it has served to give us an acceptance of each other that is not always seen in other families. I think the one thing we have for each other is a high respect regardless of the choices each individual member has made.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Anthony
Wednesday, September 18, 2002, 15:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
A lot people on this site answer questions the way you just have, it's actually quiet clever. This method avoids answering the question being asked by answering or asking another question using the same "language" or inserting key words. This is a bit tricky, because at first sight, it would seem that indeed the question(s) has/have been answered when the opposite is true.
If you don’t want to answer my questions, please just say so, or don’t say anything at all if you prefer, thank you very much. My question had nothing to do with shame.
Regards,
Anthony
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Auty
Wednesday, September 18, 2002, 17:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
Anthony: NO I WOULD NOT MIND if my daughter wanted to become a dancer. I would be a great teacher & I would hope that if she decides to do this that our relationship as a mother/daughter would be open enough for her to tell me. When I stated that I am not ashamed it is regards to the implications you made (and perhaps I have mis-read you due to the medium we are working with) of: “Would you be overjoyed if you daughter, sisters, mother and/or any other girl you are close to chose to do the same thing?” I believe I answered the question, please go back and re-read my post. It seems that you want a BLACK AND WHITE answer when there are a lot of factors involved. When I stated I would “not be ashamed of her” that pretty much says that I would have no problem with her dancing. Perhaps I didn’t make it as black as you wanted it to be. As I also stated I would hope that I am a better parent then mine were in providing for my children so they don’t have to dance (or work at Mc.Donald’s flipping hamburgers etc . .) to put themselves through school. I hope that I can provide for her so she can go to college w/o the monetary worries. I have a lot of time before she’s old enough (about 16.5 years) to even be legal for the profession, I’m not worried. I know that by that time my life will be more settled, there will be more money in her savings accounts and her future will be secure. Our relationship, I hope, also will be on a mature level and that I have taught her right. Of course I would want more for my daughter! What parent wouldn’t? So in all honesty your questions was a little on the “dumb-dumb” side.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jerseygirl
Thursday, September 19, 2002, 08:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
Auty, this is one point I totally agree with you on. Shouldn't we, of all people, know what it's like to be out in the cold with no support for what we chose to do in life?I'm sure if my kids choose something other than what I hope for them ,it will be tough, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna disown them over it or make them feel like a dissapointment. I will do my best to support them in their desicions right or wrong and be there for them in anyway I can.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Anthony
Wednesday, September 18, 2002, 21:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
Auty: "So in all honesty your questions was a little on the 'dumb-dumb' side."
Anthony: I was hoping to keep this on a rather intellectual and humanitarian level, thus, I am sorry IF you feel that you’re exchanging online dialogue with a dumb person. Personally, I find you rather intelligent and capable of expressing yourself well, based on your comments of course. Best wishes in all that you. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From JoeH
Wednesday, September 18, 2002, 16:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sounds like she would encourage her sister or best friend but whether she would encourage her daughter she's still being vague about. Not that I really care.
Here's an analogy, you smoke right? Would you encourage your children to do so? Then again, you weren't on here extolling the virtues of nicotine so this might not apply her. What I'm trying to say is that while one may consider something they do alright for them and not a big deal, they would still want better for their children.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from monkeyfart
Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 16:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
For one at least a stripper/ exotic dancer has the decency to leave hypocrisy of religion behind when appealing to mere natural human instincts and not use peoples "weakness" as a tool to subversively force a religious conversion.
Besides that, I'd rather watch ANY exotic/ strip dancer because generally they're spunky and actually have talent unlike the "FF"ing type who try to put on this weird air of holiness, makes you REALLY sick to think of. Also, since my Mom was one I have often rationalised with the following thought:
1)“Do you hate your mom for being a prostitute or do you love her for being a mother?”- If she really was one at all. 2)“And what about when she starts teaching your own sisters to be like her, and eagerly anticipates the extra cash?”- Can you even see her as being you Mom then?
See I can accept the first one, I can’t accept the second.
(reply to this comment)
| from Lance
Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 14:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
What's the difference?!! What's the difference!!!(Question asked twice for dramatic affect) On one hand, the striper: she's usually a young college student or single women in her mid twenties who several times a week shakes her tits and sweet ass to the sound of great music in front of an audience of both men and women, she gets free drinks and makes small talk with costumers. She is usually giddy, outgoing and a good conversationalist. and she makes good money.
(reply to this comment)
| From Lance
Saturday, September 14, 2002, 14:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
The FFer: She is draped in a homemade robe and deliberately seeks out places where lonely business men go to drink, yet the business man doesn’t know the ‘no touch” rule in this case and automatically thinks that this poor jesus freak of a women clad in a home made dress and wearing no make up is coming on to him. She wants ex and he gives it to her… even though he has to wade through the religious fervor she readily spills on him –making anyone attracted to her as equally weird.
The two have nothing in common.
I have some good friends who are stripers, they are great people.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Lance
Saturday, September 14, 2002, 16:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
Mom was an FFer, let me explain something to you about male behavior. There is no such thing as a guy who does not like strippers. He is either lying to gain favor amongst women, a puritanical bible wielding freak or he is a false egalitarian of some sorts... in other words he doesn’t believe that people are entitled to choose their own careers solely because he is offended by them. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from Mom Was an FFer
Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 10:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
Im a fan Anthony, but how about this diff: if you don't have too evil a boss, you take your own pay to your own home where you raise your own family as you choose.
You don't send your daughter, at 12, 500 miles away (where was the outrage at having your kids taken from mom in 1996????) to the local Combo when she is 1 of the 1st Family kids in the area to be 12. You don't call; maybe a letter over the next 2 years. Her little brother she won't see until she gets back from TTC-- he's unrecogizable, has to call out her name: his voice has changed and he's taller than her.
There, in 1986, she has to go "witnessing" all day with adult brothers who at nite stick their fingers inside her while she reads the word, frightened of a "girl Who Wouldn't" style breaking to get away (and where'd she go? he IS a "Babes" shepherd and then the shepherdess who is her guardian sends her to the Home shpherd anyway, and he does even more painfull stuff to her, but she is an adult, right? That is until she stops being allowed to watch the rare movie, drink coffee or 1 glass of wine BUT the shepherd takes her at any time of day until Lib. or Stumb. comes out and he switches to a girl her age who is more docile), selling all the "Comet Comes" posters ASAP because Halley was a dud and the posters will be wasted. First schedule change for the Great Tribulation. Doubts will be punished for the coming years until she runs away.
I'd take the dancers I've met on this site as Mom any day
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | from Jerseygirl
Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 07:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
Oh man--you're brave!
(reply to this comment)
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