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Getting On : Pop Culture
Family Art | from Anthony - Monday, November 24, 2003
accessed 3006 times The following is a discussion I started on the Yahoo Family Youth Group with my original post “Family Art” and the resulting thread off-shoots called “interesting, suprising though and Not A Fight.”
Do notice the way I begin the message thread, a great foot in the door, like the Camel’s Nose, LOL, passive-aggressive instigation, and that's what makes me Anthony!
I’m just about to go home, change and go to the gym, it’s been a long week and weekend, as I must have worked close to 85 hours in the past 7 days, so I didn’t read even one third of the comments, and I’m certainly not going to take the time to format everything. I apologize for some of the possible resulting confusions, as some of the comments address other comments made earlier, you piece the puzzle.
Anthony : I have to admit, the Family does have some very talented artist, for
example:
http://www.geocities.com/familyartcorner/
Jade Turquoise : Yeah, I hate to break it to you, but some of us have known that for quite some time, and, no, it doesn't stumble us.....(Sorry) The faith is still
just as strong! The fruit of it all is good in my life and the lives of many
others, that's pretty all that matters to me.
NTL : I didn't know about any of that. So, it's a known fact that Tamar gets a
lot of her ideas from other's paintings?
NTL
Cel : Yup - and it's been years!
And yeah, copying those people's art is a common thing though - I think basically every artist I've known tries copying it...and it's definitely not "unique" to the Family either. (I have cousins who study and go to art school who are real good at copying Boris' and the other folks' art...) - Big deal
Stephen Buckle: Who put together that presentation?
Jules Connolly: If any of this was suposed to stumble anyone, one thing that occurs to me is that it almost even strengthens my faith. Looking at it logically, its like those demons havent existed all throughout time, and that other people hadnt seen them before, its that they were revealled to us at that particular point in time. So anyone else all along whenever or wherever could´ve pictured that too, if the Lord wanted them too, our spirt helpers are real, and we are in tune with them, just as demons are real, and those that worship them are in tune, and most likely can see visions of them too. That would serve more to testify to the veracity of the demons and what they look like, as its like a second witness. I dont believe we are the only ones that can comunicate with the spirit world. Im sure there are many people who actively comunicate with those of the netherworld. Just as many have also testified to having seen those who passed away, or visions, angels or whatever it may be.
I believe the "ideas" dont come from Tamar or any other painting or artist. The ideas, the inspiration, the visions, do come from above, from Jesus and His helpers. Putting that on paper into a concrete, picture, to help everyone else who is not actually seeing the vision, is a bit more dificult, and one can "copy" parts of pictures, or painting to help.
And yeah, its not a "New" revelation, that some parts of pictures by Tamar have been coppied, so I supose you could say its known. fact is, Im sure she (Tamar) and others, check and recheck its picture with the Lord, too make sure it portrays what HE wants it to portray, and that each "copied" piece is in essence going to help those of us who see it too better understand what He is tying to say through the Gn or whatever it may be.
Just my few cents. Im NOT preaching at anybody here, just saying what I think about the artwork.
Good Day y'all!...Take Care.
Charm: If you look at any of the Family art classes, there's tips on how to copy art. Eman used to do it a lot, and used live models as well, just taking pics, esp with Heaven's Girl, etc. Obviously we're not the only ones doing it. If it saves time and energy, all the better for her!
SW
Jules Connolly: Sorry I just realized a typo,
If any of this was suposed to stumble anyone, one thing that occurs to me is that it almost even strengthens my faith. Looking at it logically, its not like those demons havent existed all throughout time, and that other people hadnt seen them before, its that they were revealed to us at that particular point in time. So anyone else all along whenever or wherever could´ve pictured that too, if the Lord wanted them too, our spirt helpers are real, and we are in tune with them, just as demons are real, and those that worship them are in tune, and most likely can see visions of them too. That would serve more to testify to the veracity of the demons and what they look like, as its like a second witness. I dont believe we are the only ones that can communicate with the spirit world. Im sure there are many people who actively communicate with those of the netherworld. Just as many have also testified to having seen those who passed away, or visions, angels or whatever it may be.
oops...heheheh, that slightly alters things....
Unknown Poster: I believe the "ideas" dont come from Tamar or any other painting or artist. The ideas, the inspiration, the visions, do come from above, from Jesus and His helpers. Putting that on paper into a concrete, picture, to help everyone else who is not actually seeing the vision, is a bit more dificult, and one can "copy" parts of pictures, or painting to help.
And yeah, its not a "New" revelation, that some parts of pictures by Tamar have been coppied, so I supose you could say its known. fact is, Im sure she (Tamar) and others, check and recheck its picture with the Lord, too make sure it portrays what HE wants it to portray, and that each "copied" piece is in essence going to help those of us who see it too better understand what He is tying to say through the Gn or whatever it may be.
Just my few cents. Im NOT preaching at anybody here, just saying what I think about the artwork.
Good Day y'all!...Take Care.
TIGJAS: Yea, who put it together and where did you get it? Do you know where it came from?
Joi C: Yeah, I remember the first time I saw any of Boris's art--I totally loved it and I still copy it for practice--after all, we can't all hire live models to photograph and work from that like he does. There was a little controversy about it in the home since he depicts some pretty strange creatures sometimes, but shortly afterwards the GN You Can Make It came out, and since Tamar copied Boris's art for that cover it was okay for me to continue :)
Seriously, he's the big name in fantasy art, and almost anyone who's into that kind of art has either copied him or gotten ideas from him, Julie Bell, etc.
Porceleindoll: I find this very interesting Jade. It just seemed to me when I looked
over that link and the quotes taken from Tamar's interview, that she
said her art was received in direct revelation from Jesus and other
spirit helpers. But what you are saying here is that it is common
knowledge in the Family that her artwork is actually plagiarized? It
leaves me wondering and with many questions. It is also interesting
to note that the original artwork she got her ideas from are quite
dark pictures, not your normal artwork that most would hang on their
living room wall.
Anyway, if you could post any information that is a little more
updated to the quotes given at the link Anthony posted where Tamar
gives her artwork credit to outside artists, I for one, and perhaps
others of us, would appreciate it and at least be able to give her
credit for her integrity. The way the site below portrays her and her
artwork for the Family casts a very bad light on her as well as WS's,
Jesus' and Maria and Peter's integrity and honesty. Can you clarify
it a little for us?
Porceleindoll
Porceleindoll: Hmm, interesting again. Does it not strike you odd though that Tamar
would say that her art is directly inspired by Jesus and her spirit
helpers rather than give credit to where she actually got the ideas?
If Tamar were saying, "I must credit many outside artists such as ...
for my artwork, they have given me many ideas and I have copied some
of their styles myself" then at least she would be honest. But to say
that it is all received in direct prophecy, vision and revelation,
well, does this not show her up to be somewhat false? How would you
explain it? I am sincerely curious to know, and hoping for a
satisfactory answer.
NTL: Someone just pointed out to me that some of Tamar's "quotes" were somewhat
altered in the Flash presentation from what was actually printed.
Jules Connolly: No offense to anybody...but seriously...here we go again? All these "OMG! I shocked!! How dishonest!!tsc. tsc. stc. " reactions ...theres one silly word that comes to mind (it has sortta of a 90´s connotation I think) but it describes my opinion of all of these reax:
CORNY!!!!
I could also say, been there, typical, old, heard that b 4...etc...
Would´nt you say?
once again...no offense.
Good day y´all
Q. Does it not strike you odd though that Tamar
would say that her art is directly inspired by Jesus and her spirit
helpers rather than give credit to where she actually got the ideas?
NO!!
Charm: My thoughts exactly! I was thinking of how people often describe angels the way artists have been portraying them for hundreds of years. It's awesome that there's that confirmation, because it shows we're on the right track. I was surprised when the Brazil GNs came out, as they mention demons and spirits that are familiar to the area, but that I had never heard of before, until doing some research on the web. I'm sure we're not the only ones who see them, much less get attacked by them. But it's comforting to know we have the Keys and the power to overcome them all. Praise God!
Sw
Charm: One other thing, that interview was given over three years ago! It's possible the Lord allows her to copy art now. In the interview I believe she was speaking specifically of the Cathar picture with the girl that has 6 fingers. That picture was received through 'prophecy' and wasn't copied, according to what she said. The Lord often allows things to change with time, so maybe she's gotten the ok from the Lord to copy these dark pictures, as they are about the dark side of the netherworld. Just my opinion.
SW
Jules Connolly: YEs, Here in Brasil, the demons mentioned are very comon and known...not something only for those into "evil" so to speak. Candomble, Macumba and others, are things you run into in your everydays life, and simple people do have a very real fear of them or it.
They´ve existed, and do exist in Brazil, its part of the folklore. That does not mean the Mama and Peter are "copying " Brazilian folklore by naming those demons. The same way Pan and some of the other demons, have been mentioned before in ancient mythology and stuff..... It doesn't make it any less of a revelation, or any less true, just cause they don't go naming every book, where that demon was ever mentioned before. Do I make sense?
anyways.....
Cruise: NTL's right. The quotes were altered in the presentation.
Attached is a copy of tamar's origional interview copied from ZINE #41.
Tamar said Jesus and her art work is inspired by Jesus and her spirit helpers but she never denied using other peoples art work. heres a paragraph from tamar's interview in wich sugests that she's not trying to hide the fact that she uses other peoples art work for ideas and help.
(Excerpt from Tamars Interview:) My first "spiritual experience" with my art was when I was doing the cover for the Cathar GN. I was drawing the Cathar girl at the top of the picture, and using some reference to help me in the drawing of her hair. I was working away, when very clearly I heard a girl's voice say, "Let go, let go, don't use the reference." I thought to myself, "Mmmm, that's funny," and silly me, I just continued using the reference. Again I heard this same voice, "Let go, Tamar, let go. Don't use the reference." It was at this point I literally got goose bumps all over, it was as if I could feel her leaning over my shoulder directing me. So I proceeded to draw the hair without using the reference, and it was as if someone else was working through my fingers. It's difficult to describe, but it was like I was in a detached sense almost watching my own hand draw, but I wasn't controlling my hand. I was simply "letting go" and watching it draw. (I had the same thing happen recently when drawing the cover for the Feast "Consecration Ceremony" GN. I was shading the boys' jeans, and for about 30 seconds, I had that same amazing experience of losing control of my hand.)
Hope this helps you.
Cheers.
--kevin
Cruise: The sixth finger is part of the origional picture. It's part of the myth that mermaids have six fingers. Boris portrayed that on his Picture.
Jesus said in tamars iterview ...this was the characteristic of one of those who delivered the message to you. (having six fingers)
She wouldn't have made the mistake of drawing a picture with 6 fingers so the Lord put the picture of the mermaid into her mind so that the outcome would be a woman with six fingers. Thus acurately depicting the Cathar girl who gave the prophecy. I find it pretty amazing that the lord led her to exactly that picture when there were so many others to choose from to help her with the body work.
(Jesus:) My spirit helpers not only put ideas and pictures into her mind, but also sometimes actually physically move her hands. She certainly did not put the extra finger there on purpose, and it is unlikely that she would make such a mistake.
My point is that Jesus used the picture of the mermaid to get that "sixth finger" on the Cathar girl
--kevin
arwens_elfstone: In society at large, when a writer quotes another writer, it is the
custom to give credit (make a notation) of their source. When taking
a writing course, this is one of the basic rules. It may not be a
bad idea to consider doing this in Family publications.
After seeing the presentation, I don't have issues with Tamar getting
ideas/inspiration from other people's art. I, however, would find it
reasuring if someone could address whether these depictions of the
visions were indeed given before the actual picture was drawn. Some
of the visions seem like they are describing Boris Vallejo's picture
to a "T" and that understandably might leave one with questions.
What came first, the chicken or the egg?
Someone mentioned that some of the quotes in the presentation had
been changed. It would be interesting to locate the original quotes
and see where they differ.
NTL: It just really bugs me how (certain) ex-Family members can't help themselves
when it comes to "posting" clips from pubs...where they alter or edit the
text from what it originally says.
NTL
Phileus Fogg: i wish jules were here to comment on that.. nya ha ha ha ha ha.. as in 'the other jules' that's not 'conolly'
:-)
Stephen Buckle: lol yea, i'm sure she'd have some perfectly logical explanation, my ass
Hanna Blackschleger: hmm, interesting. Could we get the real quotes somehow to compare?
eX_C_Chica: why is it even a question of who drew what as all insperation comes from god surely i remember tracing fam pics all the time as a kid colouring them it seams somewhere we have lost sight of the fact what ever we do God is doing thru us or other spirits helping us!
Love Chica
Hanna Blackschleger: ummm, you do know though, that the picture that was her "reference" were not mermaids but snake-like creatures, right? Just a thought.
Samanta: Is really backed up that any Family pubs say "all" is "received in
direct prophecy, vision and revelation"?
Stephen Buckle: I totally understand why she doesn't go saying, "i copy all my art from boris zisufzsnke...." cuz that would create direct problems with certain ppl who maybe can't handle it or dont' have the faith, so you have to understand why she doesn't go spreading it to the 4 corners.... i mean, i wouldn't. It's not like she's in the art business, where giving credit where it is due, is an absolute neccesity. It's all a means to an end. And yes I believe the Lord ordains the art, regardless if it is copied or not. In a sense, she's telling the truth, just not the whole truth. I have no problems with that.
Esther Almond Tree: Tamars people are always copied from either photos or other art.
Cruise: hmmm... thought i sent them. Oh well, here u are again...
Cruise: You can only open the attachment if your familyyouth acount is set to receive induvidual emails. I'm sending it again in hopes that you get it. Attached is Tamar's origional interview taken from Zine #41. Dunno why some of u don't seem to be getting it.
Cruise: Yes butt i was refering to the prophecy she got later when someone mentioned that the picture had 6 fingers.
--kev
porceleindoll: Well, if you look closely (even not to closely will suffice) at the
pictures Tamar copied, they are obviously not inspired by God,
perhaps by some other god, but I highly doubt those pictures are
inspired by the God you are referring to, so yes, I would say it
matters greatly, at least when I was in the Family a few years ago, I
think there would have been hell to pay if I had been copying
something inspired so obviously NOT from the Christian God, or at
least from what He is considered to be.
Porceleindoll: I guess I do have a problem with someone not telling the direct
truth. I believe in the truth, esp. from those I trust and love.
Porceleindoll: OK, I'm not here to make a fight or to cause you trouble. I just had some questions. If I really stretch the answers received then yes, I
guess I can see how her 'inspired' artwork could be inspired by
outside artists. I'm not an artist, I don't know what goes into
making a picture, neither am I a prophet, so I don't know what goes
into receiving a vision or prophecy. Perhaps one day, who knows.
But can I ask, how many of you actually clicked on the presentation
and checked it out? Some of her angel pictures are inspired from
demon originals, some of her heavenly helper goddess pictures are
inspired from obviously not heavenly goddesses, things like that.
In the outside world, referencing means you refer to something for an
idea, you use it as research, it doesn't mean you copy it word for
word in your final paper or product, or in this case, line by line.
Just check it out and think about it, that's all I'm saying, take a
step back from the whole thing, check out the link and then make a
choice about the matter.
Some of the original artwork is very beautiful, colorful and
intriguing, fascinating really.
As for the quotes being touched up, I don't know, they seem pretty
accurate to me, at least the ones from the Zine Article vs. the ones
in the presentation which were taken from her article. The other
quotes are all referenced as well, but I don't have those
publications any longer to compare them with.
I did read through that Zine article, and the only real comment she
made that could give any impression that her artwork comes from
outside sources is the one someone already posted here about
the 'referencing'. In another place she gives credit to her wonderful
teammates, both in the spirit and here, so I guess that could mean
that the artists outside of the group are part of her teammates, and
perhaps Jesus is inspiring them as well? (though I honestly doubt it
on most of those pictures, they are pretty dark).
But in all honestly, Tamar does give the impression that her artwork
is directly inspired from Jesus and her spirit helpers and through
prophecy and visions, and nowhere does she say anything about using
artwork from other artists or looking around on the internet for
ideas. And then if you view the artwork presentation in the link A.
Rugely gave, it would seem just a bit too coincidental and her
artwork is just a little too precise and copied in too great of
detail from these other artists. Of course, Jesus could have given
her the exact same vision that He gave someone else, and the spirit
helper could have taken total control of both Tamar's and the other
artists' hands in order to direct a work that is precise in two
different locations with neither artist having knowledge of the other
one's work. Or perhaps the outside artists got ahold of Tamar's work
and copied it in detail? That's a remote possibility, but still a
possibility.
From what I read Tamar seems like a real nice person with a great
personality, and she seems to have talent as an artist. It's just
this little thing about her copying the art and attributing her work
to visions and prophecy and guidance from her spirit helpers.
Perhaps someone could go through her quotes and pull out everything
she said that would prove she has copied and traced the works of
other artists?
Porceleindoll: Hmm, you would probably know better than me since I don't have access to the library, and perhaps I could have worded it better. I think if
you read Tamar's Zine interview (which I just did), the impression
you are left with, of course not including the part about her using
some reference material on the Cathar picture, is that her artwork is
pretty much inspired in vision and prophecy. You could of course say
that her 'vision' came from a viewing of another artists' work? Is
that possible? But if memory serves me right, a vision usually was
something you got from the Lord with your eyes closed (or maybe open
too) but not when you were focused on something physical?
I do believe she gives credit to being inspired by some of the other
past and perhaps present well-known artists who are in the Family,
but I didn't find any comments whatsoever about her using the artwork
of artists outside the group.
Porceleindoll: I would greatly appreciate it if you could post the correct (true to the Family publication) and incorrect (ex-member publication)
versions of the clips. It would help me get a better outlook of this
whole issue.
Porceleindoll: I can imagine that many artists probably refer to other artists' work for ideas and etc. But do they copy in exact detail down to the last
line and curve from other artists? I think that's more like tracing.
Esther Almond Tree: Tamar isn't selling her art, nor is she copying someone elses art, in their name, in order to sell it and make money off of it. The laws about art are varied, depending on the country, but the general gist, in most places, is that you can sell copied things, under your own name, as long as it isn't an exact replica, and you sign it in your own name. The laws are not the same as for the written word, so even if something is copywrited, like the pictures on that site, you are still allowed to copy them in your own hand and making minor changes to make it clear that its not the same.
What Tamar said about her receiving inspiration through prophecy, can also apply to looking at other pictures and asking the Lord what to copy and how to copy it.
Porceleindoll: I wouldn't say I'm shocked or left gasping. I suppose I really
shouldn't worry about it, of course I read and practiced 'Deceivers
yet true' for years. Perhaps I just have a penchant for honesty these
days.
Porceleindoll: I thought of that too, that perhaps since the interview the 'rules'
have changed a bit. In that case, has there been an announcement to
the group that now Tamar has permission to use artwork from other
artists? And does she now make a footnote on her artwork that
says "Inspired by ..." "Taken from ..."?
Or maybe it's more like Stephen said, a case of not wanting to
stumble anyone with weak faith, to let them know that her artwork is
not directly inspired in vision and prophecy, but she actually traces
the artwork of others?
Porceleindoll: Thanks Kevin, that's interesting you should post this. It does make it clear she was using some sort of reference, but then it also makes
it clear that she was told by the Lord to 'let go' of the reference
and draw according to His direction instead. Interesting to note too
is that this particular drawing still very closely resembles the
original 'reference'.
Esther Almond Tree: A lot of the pictures of spirits that she copied were supposed to be demons, and the other ones were changed in spirit. When they were supposed to be good spirits, then they looked like good spirits. |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from Phoenixkidd
Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 23:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wow this site is shocking...It's too bad that the artist's couldn't be more original or creative...oh well they were all just kids anyway with no formal training and it doesn't need to be copyrighted as nothing that The Family produced really is.
(reply to this comment)
| from Anthony
Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 11:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
Cruise:
To take (ideas, writings, etc.) from (another) and pass them off as one's own
I'm on your side... but if she took ideas from others... Plagiarism would be the correct word.
Aaron Shepherd:
Sorry!
Cel:
I do believe this issue of "questions vs. objections" has already been covered before and extensively on this group, so I'm not going to get into it again. - Not to mention that there's already TONS of counsel in the GNs themselves about it, so I'll let those speak for themselves.
Hope that's alright!
bushfire16:
I'm a little disturbed and not because of the art copied. They're
interesting pictures, but the prophecies that accompany the pictures
are exact discriptions of the pictures meaning where did the
prophecies come from??
I'd be surprised if Tamar was the main channel used to recieve such
an amount of foundation propehcies for GN's. Most likely she
recieves her assignments and prays and come up with something but
there must be various channels. I could be wrong.
This is an attack on all that we believe as far as our latest
friends and foes go and my faith is alittle shaken.
I'd be interested to hear what Mama has to say.
JQ:
dude, i already commented on this. it's dumb to think that they would search out "cool" fantasy pictures, put a few of them together and then invent demons to go with them.
frankly, i think some people are looking at this backwards, thinking, "well, these XMers are right, so we must be wrong somehow". damn it, they're trying to pull you out of the Family. that makes them the enemy and wrong. if you're ever gonna be skeptical, this is the time. if they contradict the Word, they are wrong. the only question is "how?" the Lord answered that satisfactorily for me, and i listed their errors in my post on the subject. to summarize the main point: the only logical explanation is that the demons were described, then Tamar found fantasy art that could be adapted to fit the description. if you want to debate that, write me at my address.
when it really all comes down to it, it's about faith and who you trust more - these people you don't know, except that they are deliberately trying to hurt your spiritual life, or the Lord and His Word?
Charm:
Well said. A verse that comes to mind is Faith cometh by hearing the Word of God. If our faith is the least bit rattled (and I won't deny that it bothered me at first just a little bit as well), go to the Word. Pray, get prayer from others (Mama and Peter have stressed that point a lot), and read more Word. Frankly, when I saw it loading and read that it was coming from the Moving On site, I stopped viewing it altogether, it was only because everyone kept commenting that I actually watched it, this time with a good prayer beforehand, and a good cleanser after. Actually, the last comment just made me laugh. What did it say? You decide or something like that? I've decided. This is the place for me, and God help those that are trying to take out my comrades in arms!
Gabz
Hypoborean habitat:
youre right man! It is a little corny. I have to say i was a bit bothered at first. But after praying about it and talking with some ppl, i have to say... who cares???
Cruise:
Heres somthing I read the other day
Great minds... disscus ideas
Average minds... discuss events
Small minds... discuss people
Like someone said, Tamar's just the girl who illustrates the GN's so we'd have somthing pretty to look at.
-kev
NTL:
Today is the last and final day of the Brazil Fast of worldly input.
Congratulations to all of us who came through and made it! Happy November
30th!
NTL
Sara Star:
Yup, Congrats to all of us!
Charm:
CONGRATULATIONS, AND GOD BLESS ALL OF YOU FOR STICKING IT OUT!!!
NTL:
It was worth it...and it feels great to be counted in with the Brazil folks.
NTL
Aaron Shepherd:
Congratulations to each and every one of you, for keeping to the rules
and for sticking it out. Hang out the flags and PARTY!
GBY and much love,
Peter.
Jules Connolly:
Yesterday was the last day of our Subscription Contest, and our punishment...ppl went crazy, homes skipped wnrs and hit the streets selling subscriptions on Saturday and Sunday, (I wouldn't be amazed if they sold a few to light posts..) really amazing!! We are still opening the messages...to get a decent count, but we are well over 2000! This month.. The promises are finally coming alive "And the gospel shall be preached in all the world" & all the pages of promises of the mighty miracles Activated would become, and how this would be a household word, and one of our greatest witnesses. Thats 2000 more people who will be receiving the our radical message for today every month!! Good day y´all!
-Jules
(ps. I´ll letcha all know the final numbers...so u can share the joy ahead of time...)
Jade Turquoise:
Hats off!
Party long and party hard, you really deserve it!
Jade Turquoise:
So how many subscriptions did you guys turn in this November?
Jules Connolly:
Hey everybody!! We closed the month with 2186! Thats almost 2 yrs worth at our previous rates.... We´re going forth to conquer!! May it never more be said it cant be done!!
I'm at the Brazil activated desk... we just closed the count..moments ago..and we are just posting the per home stats on the Contato site..(all those in Brazil can check it out tonight, as you have the password and all the rest of ya will see them on the MO shortly, or in the grapevine.) The top 3 shiners were:
1) All SGA home (Angie Jacques..a member of this group...lives there)
2) Mostly yp home (3 fga´s) (another one of our very own pals lives there...round of aplause to Fiona and her home...these guys did the weekend deal)
3) A home with mostly new disciples..(ntl...u know them: lar da praia)
Aside from that in the group subs category:
1) Niteroi home ... all time WORLD shinners
Thot they´d be interesting tidbits...
Lotsa luv y´all
-me
(ps. hats off to all of those who hit the streets by faith...and set the snowball rolling...all thanks to Jesus and the power of the keys!!)
NTL:
Jules, where are you? I realize (now) that you're in Brazil...but where?
That's great to hear those stats of Activate...totally amazing!
NTL
Charm:
Wow! Way to go. I was looking at the subscription stats on the MO site, and was amazed to see how Brazil has caught the fever, doubling subscriptions each month, this definitely tops it!!! yeah, party long and hard, you really do deserve it, and I'm sure they're all partying with you all in Heaven as well.
Gabz
angie Jacques:
TYJ! We had a real celebration...
Other people in our home are....Gabe (also in FY), Brian, Claire, Joana, Joe & Angela. Hats off to each one!
Angie
(reply to this comment)
|  From Ex-member
Tuesday, February 01, 2005, 15:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
JQ:
frankly, i think some people are looking at this backwards, thinking, "well, these XMers are right, so we must be wrong somehow". damn it, they're trying to pull you out of the Family. that makes them the enemy and wrong. if you're ever gonna be skeptical, this is the time. if they contradict the Word, they are wrong. the only question is "how?" the Lord answered that satisfactorily for me, and i listed their errors in my post on the subject. to summarize the main point: the only logical explanation is that the demons were described, then Tamar found fantasy art that could be adapted to fit the description. if you want to debate that, write me at my address.
when it really all comes down to it, it's about faith and who you trust more - these people you don't know, except that they are deliberately trying to hurt your spiritual life, or the Lord and His Word?
Ohhh, no he di'n't! First off we are "the enemy and wrong?!" Then we're "people (they) don't know?!" Wow, I swear I was never that dilluded when I was in the family. I knew who my friends were, in or out and I knew right from wrong...I guess that about sums up why I left: I knew it was wrong and I didn't want to be associated with the family around me any longer.(reply to this comment) |
| | from DarkAngel
Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 09:27
  (Agree/Disagree?)
It just goes to show that hard liner Fam. members are not bothered with the word or the truth ,in fact they follow their leader Berg that have been teaching them for years to lie and cover up the facts.As well as the "110 ways to use the bible to have power and get rich"
What's new? Nothing !That's why we left ,Talking with Fam. members is like talking to a wall ,but then again it could be like talking to a snake ,Humm I wonder could it be more like talking to a pit ,well it could also be like talking to my ass ,or it could be like .....To cut it short it's like wasting time As there are none more blind or deaf as those who dare not see or hear.
Berg could never stand for the truth in court ,like his wife and his close leaders ,all blaming the inocents and usual suspects so why would his followers be differents now ,as the famous saying goes"bergs of same feathers flock together "
I like that art expose and ppl that want to see the facts will like it too
I wanted to take this time to express my appreciation for the ones who took time to put it together as the old false prophet used to say a picture speaks a thousands words.
I really don't care to hear some oldfart bottles defend their group against reason ,it's endless and frankly who cares. Let the blind lead the blinds into the bottomless pit .
Thanks for that Art presentation and I really believe it had to come from the inside too! As most of us are busy caring for our fam.and responsabilities ,we don't live as leaches sucking the inocents blood for a living. WE,contrary to most top fam. leaders work for a living and we are not stepping on ppl hearts to reach our goals ,so opposite of the way the Fam. promote itself .There are few questions in my mind that the Fam. has ennemies all the way inside to the top hoping for nothing less than to bring this group down on their way out.In some way redeeming themselves for years of stupidity.Look at all the folks that have left,and are commited to bring down the Fam.
But then what do Fam. members expect from maria and peter and crew ,look at the way maria rebuked her followers in the financial issue saying in so many words that it's intolerable for folks not to send her a personal gift Ha! This really cracked me up to see how far lady luck is pushing it.All this after a doctored prophecy from the old monster himself ,So ask yourself how come Fam. members keep kissing ass and be so blind ????
I guess reading too many Fam. Gn ,such as glory to myself and my king type insanity (by king I meant the peter guy) ...The french had it right when they got rid of them at the last revolution.
love, peace and TRUTH!!!!
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | from Jerseygirl
Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 09:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
I wonder whatever happened to family people being"cloaked in humility"? Though I can see that their lack of intelligence and vocabulary have remained intact. Porcelaindoll should receive a badge of honor for the way she handled herself with such decency in the midst of those conceited nuts. I am so proud to call her a fellow Vandari.
(reply to this comment)
| from Anthony
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 19:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
Aaron Shepherd: For my two cents worth, cannot Porcelindoll ask Sam Ajemain to research it. I understand he's well thought of in the XM camp.
(reply to this comment)
| from Not Permissibly Favorable ex
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 14:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
For people who claim to have dedicated their lives to some kind of service out of love for others, those Family Youth are pretty snide.
(reply to this comment)
| from Anthony
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 13:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
porceleindoll : Sorry, last thing, make all those Julia O's into Juliana C., sorry,
my bad.
Jules Connolly : come again?
Jules Connolly : right...ya that!! Hear Hear!! lol...that one totally slipped by me...
Hanna Blackschleger : I think it's safe to say THAT a Family member made that presentation, I figure it is probably someone who works/worked with Tamar. Who else would have noticed the similarites? Pure chance that an ex-member happens to come across all those corresponding paintings and see that they precisely describe things seen in prophecy??? I strongly doubt that.
arwens _elfstone : Hurrah to Jade! Finally someone who can answer with a little
courtesy and understanding. A little of that goes a long way! Well
said Jade!
Stephen Buckle : Oh please. For the ppl who sit around & have nothing better to do but bash the Family, the people in the Family & what it stands for, I really think they would find the time to put together a presentation like this. And if they don't have the time, they would make the time, you know since it's so important......
And it's not pure chance that they would happen upon the prophecies, don't you know??!! they read all of them...
porceleindoll : I'm afraid I must bow my pretty pink self out of this debate, as I
have pretty much figured out what I wanted to know and it is also not
really going anywhere, with a few exceptions of well-thought out
responses, which I appreciated it. But as Celeste said, those who
mind don't matter, and it's true, I am no longer a part of your world
and I don't matter to you. Thank you for the time and response, it
was interesting indeed. Wishing you all the best of luck! Mr. Fogg
you are cute in your sarcasm and double innuendos. Perhaps we'll meet
up sometime.
Phileus Fogg : (you said) who else would have noticed the similarities? --- well probably someone who would have LOOKED for them.. like cel pointed out (those who matter don't care, those who care don't matter), i don't know of any family people who would have searched out where tamar gets her inspiration from.. it doesn't really make any difference whatsoever to most [all?] of us..
and like porceleindoll said (i'm enjoying my credit-dishing), boris' art is not something most family people would just chance upon by accident..
so if family people wouldn't search for tamar's inspiration, nor chance upon it.. who's left?
Jules Connolly : Jules, I think you posting that comment about whoever it was wherever they were... smoking marijuana...however many years ago has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue at hand... Its just pulling out old hat...crooked politicians do it allot....
As for the rest of the discussion..I readily agree with cel"Those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind!" .Not that you as a person dont matter...but the issue..
Jules, what is being said here...and even you sortta contradict yourself (unless your vouching for every xm that fam material is not doctored...but u said u only spoke 4 urself..).... is not whether you personally post or doctor Family material.. we know!! that Family material has been and most likely still is doctored or cruely altered in some places, by x-members...whether or not you personally adhere to or have ever adhered to this practice is NOT the issue.
Preety Pink Porcelain, I argued the issue as you brought it out, I have nothing against you, or your personality, I wanna apologize if I said anything that offended you, I didnt mean to direct any of that at you as a person, but only at the matter at hand, I hope I havent offended you in any way, or any one else in here 4 that matter.
good day 2 each and every person!!
beijos...
JULES C. (since my name has now also become an issue...For that sake of clarity...maybe I should change my name..lol.)
(Ps. Jules, we do treat Xm´s with the same "courtesy", you were kind enough to mention below....some are favorable..go about their own buisness..live their lives...my heart felt congrats...I admire you for having the guts to decide what you wanna do..and go for it. Others...have hangovers...need I say more?)
JQ : Hmmmm... so Julia, do you deny knowledge about or involvement in this project?
I notice you made no statement as to whether or not you yourself know the origin of the presentation. That was smart.
I finally got Flash working with my Firebird browser and viewed this presentation today. While I was duly impressed with the professional quality of the product, I noticed something that I think some others may have missed. When I paused the show for a moment, I happened to glance at the bottom of my screen and notice where the information was coming from. How interesting... my computer had established a connection with and was "Transferring data from www.movingon.org" (If you don't believe me, see for yourself. Look at the lower left corner of your browser as the page loads.)
This introduced another factor that causes me to question the "rumor" that the show was created by a Family member.
First of all, the quality of the Flash show was quite remarkable. I'm not a Flash programmer, but i am a graphic artist / editor and i know that to design something that professional takes more than a few minutes. Add to that programming time, plus the research, finding the pics, etc, and somebody poured a lot into that little thing (all so that we could "decide for ourselves", of course). None of the Family members I know have that kind of time and budget.
Secondly, some or all of the elements in that presentation are stored on www.movingon.org - your domain, if i recall correctly. While that doesn't rule out Family authorship, it does show that the creator intentionally associated him- or herself with exmembers (and might I add, disgruntled exmembers). If this was, in fact, made by someone currently in the Family, I doubt they will remain in the Family very much longer.
Furthermore, I find it interesting that you would propogate this "unconfirmed rumor". In a previous message to this group, you stated that you "built and host the movingon.org web site". As the host, you should have some idea who's using your storage space and bandwidth. A little research on your part could, I'm sure, identify the creator of the presentation and forever lay to rest any speculation as to its authorship.
I'm sure all of us look forward to hearing the information you can provide.
Jules : In June of 2003, I resigned as the administrator of MovingOn and
announced this change on the site. The website is now run by a team
of about 20 editors and the current administrator is Tim R. (formerly
Tim Talker).
Jules : Reading some of these emails I think that perhaps I have not been
very clear. Please let me try to be as specific as I can here.
1. I agree with Celeste.
What anyone else thinks about this entire presentation is none of my
business. I have absolutely no desire to "convince" anyone of
any conclusion at all from this and only came on here because my name
was brought up.
2. Doctoring and Quoting.
Jules Connolly said: "whether or not you personally adhere to or
have ever adhered to this practice is NOT the issue". To me it is. My
name specifically was brought up in regards to this, and the
insinuation was made that altering publications is something that I
do. If you have evidence that I have ever done this, please do tell,
otherwise please leave me out of this, and you are absolutely right
Jules C., I am not responsible for what other people do.
I have yet to see any evidence that the text in the presentation
was "doctored" (words inserted or changed). In academic
publications, journalistic reporting or any other place where people
are quoted the correct format is to reference the material with the
publication name, date, author and publisher, use an ellipsis (…) to
indicate where phrases have been removed, and to indicate with square
brackets (ie: [hers]) where a word has been inserted for clarity.
For an example of this, see chapter eight of Sex, Slander and
Salvation on the Family's website:
http://thefamily.org/dossier/books/book1/chapter8.htm
When David Berg is quoted, the quotes are condensed for clarity and
space. This is shown by the ellipsis's used to show that part of
the text has been removed (see the fifth paragraph for an example).
Stuart Wright (the author) did not "doctor" David's writings, but
quoted them correctly.
3. Research and Validation.
Of course any quote can be made to look like something else, simply
by being taken out of context. (An example we all know is where the
Bible says: "…there is no God" – Psalms 14:1) This is why I
personally check everything for myself, directly from the source
whenever possible, to understand the context. This precisely the
reason why sources are referenced in all publications.
As an XM I don't assume that because someone in the Family says
it, it is a lie, or because another XM says it, it is true. That
would be bigotry and discrimination. To me personally, who says what
is not important, the question is: Is it true? (In the specific case
of Claire vs. Daniel, I have no evidence either way, so I would
rather leave that one be.) I do this with books I read, statistics I
hear, urban legends passed around on the Internet, and things I am
taught in University.
Perhaps some people think that the quotes in the presentation were
out of context. As I said, what you think is none of my business, and
we are all free to make our own decisions. I happen to think that
some of the quotes from former members in GNs 1044 and 1043 were out
of context, but I'm not going to complain that they were "doctored".
I believe it's important to be accurate.
Jules
NTL : Thanks JQ for taking the time to put into print those good points. I've
been too busy and out every day to get into these details. In my opinion
this presentation was put together (painstakingly) by an ex-member and wants
some recognition, which I understand. At the end of the "presentation" it
clearly says "you decide" (or something like that)...so why don't we just
leave this at that...and let everyone decide. I haven't had so many
ex-member posts to this site in months. So why don't we just leave it at
that...and let people decide.
GBY all,
NTL
Joan Clair : Yes please! Why don't we consider the topic closed and move on to something else, this one has been quite beaten to death IMO...
Jules : I agree. I wish you all well and will now unsubscribe again from this group.
Thank you for allowing me to present my opinions. I wish you all the best.
Jules
Anthony : Jules Connolly, you're not too bright, are you?
Jules Connolly : How on earth did you ever discover????
Ladies and gentleman...this guy is a genius!!
Anthony : Let's see what led me this conclusion: Your faulty logic, poor grammar, bad spelling and your general lack of intellectual hygiene, for starters!
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from Noodle User
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 00:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
How some of our peers who are still in the Family can say some of this stuff and not realize what they are actually saying in the process is amazing.
Take the following for example:
Charm: "I was surprised when the Brazil GNs came out, as they mention demons and spirits that are familiar to the area, but that I had never heard of before, until doing some research on the web."
My thoughts are: What if the person who was commissioned by Maria to get a prophecy and ask the Lord about the "warfare going on in the Spirit world for the brethren in Brazil" also did some PRIOR RESEARCH ON THE WEB to glean a few names of some demons believed to be local to Brazil.
What are the odds of getting a list of names in "prophecy" for Brazilian demons that are exact matches to "existing" Brazilian demons? I’d venture to say you could get the lottery numbers in prophecy if you had that kind of a connection with the Lord.
I happened to still have a copy of one of the C vs. C Mags on my laptop, so I looked up a couple of the quotes that were supposedly doctored. (Which reminds me: Do the FYG people realize that adding ellipses and replacing certain words with brackets is not doctoring, but standard editing procedure used when there is a lack of space or for the sake of clarity. The Family does the same to their own pubs all the time).
PRESENTATION TEXT FOR PAN:
Text accompanying main picture:
"(Vision:) I'm seeing…the arch-demon Pan…he's golden all over…he has a human form, big golden wings…he has long fingernails and toenails…like claws, but he still has human hands and feet. His face is also golden but he's clearly demonic. His eyes are fierce, there is no light in him or in his countenance." GN 963 Are You a Disciple? paragraphs 66-68
Text accompanying inset:
"He's bald. He has pointed ears, and he has these big horns on the side of his head, like ram's horns…there is this big ornate…deep red jewel...right in the middle of his head - on top of his head-in between the horns." (GN 963:68)
ACTUAL GN TEXT: (used text has been bolded)
66. (Vision:) I'm seeing this demon—clearly he’s a demon, the arch-demon Pan—but he’s not ugly. He’s not horrific at all to look at. In fact, believe it or not, he's golden all over, almost beautiful to look at. I’d describe him best as looking almost godlike in form—like the Roman and Greek gods are often pictured. He has a human form, big golden wings and a long golden tail. He has long fingernails and toenails. I’d say they’re almost like claws, but he still has human hands and feet. His face is also golden but he's clearly demonic. His eyes are fierce; there is no light in him or in his countenance.
67. He's bald. He has pointed ears, and he has these big horns on the side of his head, like ram's horns, curling back toward the back of his head. They’re also golden. There is this big ornate and beautiful deep red jewel or gem right in the middle of his head—on top of his head—in between the horns. His head is definitely the most noticeable thing about him—because of the horns, and this jewel.
68. Jesus, this is very surprising, I was bracing myself for seeing something much more demonic and ugly to look at, especially since, from what You’ve indicated, Pan is an arch-demon, a powerful demon of the underworld—one of Satan’s main demons controlling the dominion of the mind and who is really fighting us, the children of David, ferociously.
CHANGES MADE:
Apart from minor capitalization and punctuation changes, no doctoring up has been done as far as I can tell. In my opinion, the omissions seem to have been made to pick out the most important parts, while at the same time cutting three paragraphs down to two. This person left out the part about the "long golden tail", but then, so did Tamar in her art work. – She probably couldn’t find a suitable tail to trace.
I also noticed that the reference included paragraph 68. Either the person got the reference wrong or had initially included the 3rd paragraph, but omitted it later. All in all, I think the full text adds to the veracity of the excerpts by filling in more detail rather than voiding the context as would be the case had this been doctored.
PRESENTATION TEXT FOR BACCHUS:
Text accompanying main picture:
(Vision:) "Behind the core of this mass of tentacles is this fat demon. He has a big belly, a bald head and small, pointed ears…he has very strong muscular arms with big leather bands on them, which have silver studs…He's sitting very laid back on what appears to be this 'throne,' this huge, monstrous hewn-out stone throne. He's towering over me and I'm at the base of his throne looking up at him. He's looking down at me with this very cocky, arrogant, complacent look on his face." (Jesus speaking): "This is the haughty, proud prince of addiction, Bacchus." GN 963:66-68 Are You a Disciple?
ACTUAL GN TEXT: (used text has been bolded)
80. (Vision:) Oh my, what I’m seeing now is definitely demonic, very horrible. It’s Bacchus. The very first visual impact is of seeing all these horrible tentacles, resembling octopus tentacles. At first I thought it was snakes slithering everywhere, but it’s actually tentacles, multiple tentacles. Then behind and at the core of this mass of tentacles is this fat demon. He has a big belly, a bald head, and small, pointed ears. I’m noticing that his feet also turn into these octopus tentacles—quite gross. He has very strong muscular arms with big leather bands on them, which have silver studs on them.
81. He’s like a huge brute, very ugly. These tentacles seem to come out of his body everywhere, and seem to symbolize his power to grip, to hold in addiction. They must be his evil tentacles of addiction. He's sitting very laid back on what appears to be his "throne," this huge, monstrous hewn-out stone throne.
82. He's towering over me and I'm at the base of his throne looking up at him. He's looking down at me with this very cocky, arrogant, complacent look on his face, like, "Who are you, you little weakling?!" It’s almost like he’s trying to scare me just by the sheer magnitude of his weight and power. He has this spirit and attitude of, "I can never be dethroned; my power is too great, too encompassing, too gripping!" I think that’s the ugliest thing to witness—this proud, blatant spirit he’s projecting. Lord help us!
83. (Jesus speaking): This is the haughty, proud prince of addiction, Bacchus. His strength, his hold, and his tentacles are multiple and strong, but they melt as butter when they are cut with the power of the keys!
CHANGES MADE:
AHA!! This one was doctored. The phrase "on what appears to be his 'throne,'" was changed to "on what appears to be this 'throne,'". Ooooh the whole thing is null and void now!! – Or it was a simple typing error.
(Note to whoever put this presentation together: PLEASE make your text copyable next time…it was a pain having to retype all the text out and make sure it was accurate.)
Also, the reference given at the bottom is the same reference used for the "Pan" vision. Possibly a cut and paste job on the animation elements and forgetting to double-check the reference at the end. The vision was easy to find, though--Next page, same GN.
Another point worth noting is that Bacchus (the god of wine) is usually portrayed as a jolly red-faced, grape-wearing deity. Pan is, as all are well aware, a satyr --half goat, half man. Both portrayals are a far cry from the Family’s tentacle-toting and golden-skinned versions. – Ahh, wait! I forgot. The Lord allowed the Family to see "the real" Bacchus. The other artists only saw his "nice" side and now the Lord has exposed his "evil" side to the Family. – That must be it! It just makes so much more sense that way!
As for the argument used by Ms. Connolly that this is a confirmation because other people have seen these demons too: a quick search on the Web pulls up a couple of hits for the demons Apothoen, Selvegion, Vandari, Obstacon, & Company. – All are references to the Family’s "revealed" demons. No one else has heard of them as demons much less seen them (Unless they follow the Family tradition of changing their name after every major battle). Pan and Bacchus are "famous" gods from mythology and are both portrayed in ways very different from the Family’s version, so either everyone who "saw" Pan and Bacchus before got it wrong, or the Family did. ……or Pan the evil-arch-demon has an evil-arch-demon twin brother who ended up with the genetic left-overs …… or Bacchus’ "grape look" and Pan’s goat legs have since gone out of style in Hell and have now been replaced by a fabulous looking set of tentacles and silver studded-wrist bands, with a "bring-a-friend" discount on the golden tail and wings – ALL ON SALE FOR ONLY $666.00!! …… or Bacchus the Wine God’s reign was overthrown by Tentacle Man, who then inherited—as is the custom in Hell—the name of Bacchus …… or…… Pan has succumbed to the spirit of his demon-pal, Lethargy, and has let his fingernails and toenails grow out.)
Interestingly, a little web research churned out this link: http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1050.html
In addition to Pan and Bacchus, here are some of the other demons the people at this site believe exist (all quotes below are actual quotes -- my comments in italics):
1) "Rege -- He is the General of the occult. He deals with such drugs as marihuana, hashish, cocaine, speed, LSD, peyote and mescaline. These are drugs of sorcery. They attack the mind and open it up for a demon to enter. Rege is also responsible for seeing that music is hexed." (Hmm… I thought Pan was the arch-demon. Guess we’ll have to let Rege and Pan fight that one out.)
2) "Larz -- Demon of Sexual lust, homosexuality, bi-sexuality, adultery, and other such sexual pleasures." ("Demon of Sexual lust […] adultery, and other such sexual pleasures"? This one must have been Berg’s personal demon)
5) "Medit -- Demon of hate, murder, killing, war, jealousy, envy, and gossip." This sounds like our TV Soap Operas, both daytime and night, does it not? This demon is also unbelievably active in our society today, filling our daily news with murder and mayhem. (Cool! Another demon for the Family to get a vision on. Coming soon to a GN near you: "Hateful, Gossiping Ex-members Possessed by the Demon Medit")
6) "Set -- Demon of Death. There really IS such a thing." Wars, terrorism, and murder are raging throughout the world. This Twentieth Century has been the most violent and bloody in world history. Almost all the massive genocides have occurred this century. [...] This demon lurks in the darkness of night, waiting to strike without warning, without mercy, and without any reason. "Set" is his name; Death is his game. (Wow…persuasive statement there, man! "There really IS such a thing.")
7) "Christian Demon -- This particular demon has no set name. He is so powerful that most witches won't even bother him ... Getting Christians to talk about each other through gossiping and causing strife within the church and among the brethren ... He will also try to weaken a Christian's walk with the Lord by making him content, fail to live up to church commitments, such as tithing, soul-winning, church participation, and much more." (So this is the demon that caused the uproar about tithing. Good to know).
Back to the subject: I find it very odd that some Family members read a portion of a GN without noticing anything wrong with it -- even believing it -- yet when the verbatim text comes from a questionable source they immediately claim it was doctored and refuse to accept it as truth. I cannot, for the life of me, follow this train of logic.
And please tell me someone on the FYG who is still in the Family has gone back and researched the text to see if it was edited. It would be nice to know that current Family members are solid enough in their beliefs that they are not afraid to back it up and defend it.
I'm not a member of the FYG (and don't plan to be) so could someone who is a member and is not heavily sensored please post the presentation text and GN text on there for me? Thanks in advance.
Enough ranting. Must be off to bed....
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from Anthony
Monday, November 24, 2003 - 21:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hypoborean habitat:
I agree with you totally. Being an artist myself, i dont have a problem with someone looking at anothers artists work and getting ideas or whatever... but copying like she has done, and then leaving no credit to the artist is pretty low. Especially since its been implied many times that these pictures were "inspired".
Plaglarisim is a crime no matter where you are. but worse than just copying the pictures, is trying to pass them off as your own ideas and work.
As far as the demons, i dunno, it seems like she saw the pictures and then got the description. Im not saying she invented them. Many of the demons revealed now, have been known as deitys for eons... but the descriptions could cause some to wonder.
Im an honest person, and i wish it could have been more above board, if she had admitted that all her better work was infact direct copying, then it wouldnt be an issue now.
(reply to this comment)
| from Anthony
Monday, November 24, 2003 - 21:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
Julia: I thought I addressed this "doctoring" thing already. I have no time or desire to get into a lengthy discussion again with anyone on this issue.
I don't doctor publications I post.
In the Family and also among those no longer members, there are
frequently rumours passed around. Personally, I always confirm with
documentation before believing just anything someone tells me. I
checked the quotes in this presentation for myself, and they were
accurate.
What might be confusing people is the quotation structure used. When
previous documents are quoted and excerpted there is a format which
is required, and most people learn in high school or university
writing classes:
http://www.odessa.edu/dept/english/dsmith/1302/quotationintegration.htm
The rumour (though unconfirmed) is that this presentation was made
by someone in the Family. No exmember has taken credit for it, and
the link is on some free geocities web site.
For some plain English information on "fair use", copyright and
theft of art work, this web site has some good information:
http://www.funnystrange.com/copyright/myths.htm
I am not sure why my name came up in regards to this presentation.
It's nothing to do with me. The whole point seems to me that it
speaks for itself and we are all intelligent enough and free to draw
our own conclusions.
(reply to this comment)
| From Anthony
Tuesday, November 25, 2003, 12:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
Phileus Fogg: the point was not to say that _you_ had doctored maria's reply to daniel, but that, as you admitted yourself, you had no way of finding out whether it was or wasn't..
if you feel daniel's 'ethical track record' is better than maria's (that seems to be what you're saying - correct me if i'm wrong), then that's probably your right.. but to paraphrase you (notice i'm acknowledging your intellectual property) "Kindly give [current] members the same courtesy", ie: the right to choose maria's track record over daniel's
..
what i find interesting, and somewhat sad, is that the doctoring continues - regardless of whether u are personally involved or not..
i personally find it somewhat surprising that some x-member would post a link here 2 a site w/ doctored family material -- w/out even a warning.. doesn't that sort of beat the whole 'honesty' issue it seems he was trying to bring out.. perhaps any of you who might see how it fits could enlighten us ..
I am sincerely curious to know, and hoping for a
satisfactory answer.. (acknowledgements here of course to the porceleindoll for this lovely phrase)
Cel: Actually, it's not an issue to those who matter! I'm reminded of the proverb (which I'm quite sure I'll probably word the wrong way somehow as I'm just typing from off the top of my head) "Those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind!" No offence meant, but seriously and realistically, it seems to me the only folks who have an "issue" with it are those who aren't even in the Family anymore, and as such they don't care for the message, aren't receiving the GNs or expected to follow the guidance therein, so it actually doesn't really matter if you have an issue or not. - That's not relevant.
And just so we all remember, Tamar is simply the artist used to add a few pics to the GNs for variety - she's not Mama or Peter, and though for all we know some of her prophecies could be used in the GNs (though of course we have no idea if they are) her art is simply meant for variety!!! - Let's not shoot the messenger for goodness sake! I personally enjoy having some art and entertainment with the GNs, helps give me a better picture of what I'm reading...
But yeah, what, are we going to get into bashing David Komic now 'cause he bases his humor in the comics from Matrix and other related movie stuff? Goodness, he changes the names, but dresses them all the same, uses scenes from the movie, oh my goodness!!! And if you think about it, he's never given "due credit", much less specifically said "this is taken from the Matrix". We all know the Matrix so we know he's used it, just like some/many of us know this guy's art, so we know Tamara used it...I'll say it again, quit straigning at a gnat!
Again, those of us who are actually meant to be reading the GNs and following the counsel don't care, so seriously, I see no issue.
Esther Almond Tree: plagiarism refers to the written word, not art
Stephen Buckle: I think it's safe to say no Family member made that presentation & I think you know that as well as we do Julz. I think Fogg brought your name into it, not in an accusatory sense, but just to see what your response to obvious doctoring by ex-members, would be.
Jules Connolly:
I must say, I'm having the time of my life laughing at this discussion. I´ll just post one general comment to all of it, as I don't have time to go through each one and agree or disagree.
My congrats to Philleus, I laughed soo much when I read the comment about how every person should have to credit anyone involved. So seriously, obviously, true...yar harhahahahahahahahah..BTW. Your pop and mom may have influenced you upbringing, which influenced you capability to reason, and your sense of humor. You didn't give them any credit for that!! (okay..okay..I'm sorry...getting a bit off track.....)
Preety pink porcelain doll, you requested that someone research all of Tamars comments ever posted saying that she copied art...etc. etc. 1 question why should any of us? Your the only one interested....
What Jade said is quite true, there is no place where they say all artwork is recieved in prophecy. And like was brought out xtensively, perhaps she did get a vision or recieve a profecy of how it should be, but in order to pass that vision from her mind onto paper, she needed some help. Whatever the details or xtent of that help may be...who cares? The fruit is good!! And as I said Im sure the final product is always confirmed with the Lord, to make sure its xacly what He wants portrayed.
I fink as far as the majority of us is concerned, we´re clear on the issue...your the only one that doesn't seem quite satisfied. In all your honesty and holy integrity, one verse comes to mind, (the Bible is the Bible, not Family policy or anything else). As you said, this is not a fight, and I personally have nothing against you personally, what Im arguing with this verse is not against you, but against your "theory"...so in all of this no offense. Neyways, having said that, the verse is...argh!!! I cant quite put my finger on the reference but its one where the Lord says he sends "strong delusion" ....in other words confusion and blindness. Well I mean no offense but its all in favor of your much beloved (and mine) "truth".
Its kindda like if someone was asking you a question sincerely (key word) lets say, "Why is the sea salty?" you answer them "because this plus that, and the other...make the sea salty" The sincere person says "No! I don't agree!...with anything u said or will say" well logically one would reason...Why did u ask!!
I agree with Philleus..(man someone could think Im actually lobbying 4 u or sumthing..heheh) It doesnt really matter how much or little or how twisted the quotes were...but they were obviously twisted, misquoted and doctored (thats a nice term!!).
Well anyways, may truth, peace, love and REASON reign!! (TTL! 4 that Family where they do!)
Good Day!
- ME
(PS. NEWS FLASH!!!! I'm long winded!...heheh)
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Lauren
Tuesday, November 25, 2003, 15:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
Anthony, I'm a bit confused here following this thread. Was it actually you that wrote the following:
"what i find interesting, and somewhat sad, is that the doctoring continues - regardless of whether u are personally involved or not..
i personally find it somewhat surprising that some x-member would post a link here 2 a site w/ doctored family material -- w/out even a warning.. doesn't that sort of beat the whole 'honesty' issue it seems he was trying to bring out "
Please tell me that wasn't you that wrote that.
I'm kind of surprised that the word "doctoring" keeps getting thrown around regarding that presentation. I've been through it about 5 times now. I went and pulled out the mold-covered GNs I had stashed away, and I really don't see where this painting file has been doctored. I do see where things have been shortened, but it was done properly with elipses and brackets & references were provided. There is NOTHING in that presentation (at least not as far as I can tell with the material I have on hand and interview with Tamar that Jules posted the link to) that has been doctored.
Where does that keep coming from? Has someone found something that has been changed/doctored/inserted in the presentation? If so, what was it? I haven't seen it posted anywhere and I'm pretty sure that if someone did find something it would've been plastered all over the place by now.
From what I can tell after reading all of the comments from those on this youth group, people keep exclaiming that the thing was doctored, but nobody is interested in finding the GN quotes to prove it. It's like they want to believe that it's been doctored, they have to believe it's been doctored. For those quotes to have really come from the GN would be too much for them to bear.
It would seem that Family members don't even know their own publications.
There have been several people (ex-members) that have stated they've researched the GNs and found the presentation to be verbatim to what the GNs say. I myself have now gone and done it too. But it would seem NOT ONE Family member is willing to do that. Why? Are they afraid of what they might find? They won't go look it up (and thanks to all the handy-dandy references that were provided, it's really not a lot of work -- especially so, I would imagine, for a Family member who is required by law (the charter) to keep a fully functionable library in their home). They won't go look it up, but yet they keep hollering about undeniable proof that ex-members doctor the publications. Well, sorry. I'm an ex-member and I have researched that file backwards and forwards and I take offense to the statement that this is proof ex-members doctor the GNs. It's not proof. First of all, for all we know it was a Family member that did it, so if you do find some doctoring, don't blame the ex-members, and second of all the quotes in that file are verbatim to the GN text.
Excuse me, but in this case I do believe that truth is stranger than fiction and the GN quotes alone are strange enough that no "doctoring" would have been necessary.
After I saw that presentation, I never expected it to have much influence on Family members, I figured they'd find some way to brush it aside. I was expecting a "TYJ, see how the Lord revealed the demons to other people too" or a "what's wrong with you people, can't you see how mad the Devil is, why don't you stand up and fight against his attacks". But what I was not expecting was people to say, "oh, those quotes have been doctored" & then insist on it, as if it was fact, without ever bothering to check for themselves.
I guess they've gotta do what makes them feel good, and if lying to themselves does it, well, a cult member's gotta do what a cult member's gotta do. And I would suppose that the ones that do have the capability to reason this thing out and who do go and check it for themselves are smart enough to keep their mouths shut.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Anthony
Monday, November 24, 2003, 21:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
Phileus Fogg: it was i who brought up your name.. btw, i'm delighted you're back w/ us.. u did leave, didn't u? ....... the yahoo group, i mean.. somehow i realized there was a double meaning to what i wrote.. we know that pubs were doctored on x-member sites --- i've seen it myself in the incident about daniel's letter to mama and her doctored reply.. and i was just interested to find out that things hadn't improved in your communities..
i was perplexed to find the family lectured in honesty in such circumstances
Jules: The letter in question was a private correspondence from Maria's secretary to Daniel. Daniel sent it to me and asked me to post it, and I obliged. Claire Borowick informed me on the web site that paragraphs had been added to this. Since it was a private letter, there was no way for me to confirm
or deny this, and it is his word against hers. In a dispute like this, the best thing to do IMO is to look at the character or track record of the people posting. I am not going to get into bashing anyone's character, but some people are ethical and honest and others are not and there is usually a clear pattern that speaks for itself.
Regardless I don't post Family PUBLICATIONS unless they are confirmed from at least two sources. When posting personal letters, I have now learned to clearly state that this is unconfirmed and SECOND HAND, and the best idea
is for people to post things themselves and leave me out of it.
What has been insinuated is that exmembers and myself in particular deliberately mislead people by changing publications and passing them off as the Family official statements. I can only speak for myself, but this is completely untrue. What purpose would that serve? Most people also have access to these documents, and can look them up for themselves.
One other thing, as mentioned, we all choose for ourselves how much we follow principles we are supposed to believe in. The last Family
fellowship I attended (after I left the Family) there were a number of young people smoking marijuana. It was rather shocking for me to see that, as I personally didn't even drink at the time. However, I don't assume that all the young people in the Family are doing drugs, but simply that these individual people had a lack of respect for the Family and their parents, to be engaging in this kind of behaviour in a Family home. Kindly give former members the same courtesy.
Jules
(reply to this comment) |
| | from Anthony
Monday, November 24, 2003 - 14:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
Phileus Fogg: in the case of an artist doing as esther said, copying while making minor changes so that it's obviously not the same picture and signing in their own name, there is NO NEED, nor precedent of 'making a footnote on her artwork that would say 'inspired by..' or "taken from.." '.. for the love of honesty - which u obviously have - where do u see that happen?
how many paintings in art stores have the painter's signature, and a little - or long - list of 'other credits' under it? surely [almost all] art is inspired to some degree by someone else's and are u saying that all artists (and not just tamar) should acknowledge that officially on their work.. and those are only the 'arty' inspirations.. what if someone would need to acknowledge that they were encouraged by their mother, and their father's cousin, that they're grateful to their art teacher for their help -- and not just one of them, but surely all their art teachers, relatives and friends also inspired them somehow
- don't u think that would be a pretty long list on the corner of the painting.. it might even take up all the space..
..
if you are not an 'arty' person, surely you've read - or at least seen - comic strips.. or seen political cartoons in your daily.. did u ever see any list of acknowledgements on those?
in the case of a comic strip book, there's plenty of place to make a lengthy list on one of the front blank pages.. if more than one is needed, there's still space enuf..
..
there is nothing wrong w/ copying another artist's work - you've certainly done tracing in your life; everyone probably has.. i've tried painting copies of great master's works, and if you go to an art museum, you'll see dozens of students doing just that.. some will just take inspiration from the original and come up w/ their own work, some will copy more exactly.. what is wrong is not copying [however exactly it may be] - what is wrong is passing off something as the original in the signature.. and even that may not be wrong in some places as long as you don't try to sell it [ie: if u just hang it on your own wall]
..
now i REALLY wish julie were here.. let it no longer be said that family pubs are not 'doctored' by our detractors.. were the changes substantial or not? the point is neither here nor there -- the original was changed!.. which shows that there are at least a minority who do not have the same love of truth as u profess to hold..
and since it was not 'acknowledged' that there were changes made and the intent was obviously to deceive.. i find it very odd that you would take the opportunity to lecture the family on 'honesty' and on.. perhaps it's a good time to go looking for that proverbial beam..
Charm:
Personally, I love Tamar's art, and if I compare, her's definitely has the spirit of the Lord. It's like with music, if it makes you feel good, and makes you think of the Lord, who cares who did what with it... It's amazing to me how she can take dark pictures like that and change them around to where they look beautiful! I would have been very surprised if she's able to come up with three or four new GN covers each month (on average, sometimes more), just off the top of her head. Why can't she ask the Lord what she can draw, and even if He has ideas on the art she can copy. The way we all use prophecy now, that's most likely the way she does it. It would be kindda interesting to have another interview with her...
SW
Stephen Buckle: Hey why get all worked up about it, you're not even in the Family anymore. Why don't you run along & do whatever is it you do. Please dont come at me with the "if people I know and love are lying to me..." crap get a life.
Can someone who has time, do a "before & after" presentation of the quotes & paste them into an email, as I don't have time to read thru the zine interview, find the quotes & then go to the flash presentation & find where they are there..........pls?
Jade Turquoise: Those are all very interesting questions, and I guess from where you stand it would be understable to inquire about them.
To be honest I don't think it's been annouced that Tamar has "permission to use artwork from other artists".
When I found out that she copied a lot of that fantasy art, I have to admit I was surprised she did, because like you said, I was under the impression that the pictures she got came directly from her own imagination under the Lord's annointing. But, then, my theory is that the Lord's shown her that these fantasy artists have seen the demons she was supposed to draw and so showed her to just copy
them. It should save her a lot of time as I´m sure she's plenty busy!
I don't think the Family would be afraid to publish that Tamar uses/ copies other people's work just because they'd be afraid to stumble anybody.
I don't know what their reasons are (perhaps, that it's not as big a deal to us as it is to you), but if anybody is gonna be stumble by it, well, maybe it's good for them so they can get their faith strengthened, cause there's a whole lotta heavier stuff to receive as far as WS messages go.
(reply to this comment)
| From *
Monday, November 24, 2003, 15:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
Phileus Fogg should try out his philosophy of copying on a college paper and see where that gets him!
The sophistry in these remarks makes it clear that it does *not* matter *what* WS said or did, they would come up with a way to make it OK to their way of "thinking" -- if it can be called thinking. Anything WS does, even polar opposites, would be "justifiable." heh, they seem to have forgotten a verse they used a lot on me: "If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me, if I say I am perfect it shall also prove me perverse."
The nice thing theese Family comments do for us "ex-SGs" is show any outsider with 1/4 of a brain why we'd have to leave to keep our sanity! It is a demonstration of the exact technique that makes TF mothers able to turn away from their offspring and let us be abused or abuse us themselves, then defend our abusers; abandon us and feel fully justified in the most callous abuse and neglect.
What's with the use of "heavy" still?? OMG, that is so hippie-COGish! And somebody has obviously been reading Nan's postings (notice the "run along...").
(reply to this comment) |
| | from Hanna_Black
Monday, November 24, 2003 - 09:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
Those guys will never get it. What's all this talk about copying a mermaid picture where the girl had six fingers??? Not so, not so. She copied a snake-woman who, by from the shading looked like she had a sixth finger (on one hand) and turned it into the martyred Cathar-girl-thingie who was supposedly her spirit helper and ACTUALLY DID have six fingers while alive. Spirit helper, my ass! It's called poor tracing and a very imaginative mind. There isn't any point to argue with those people. They are deluded enuf to believe that they can argue to US with "the word". Yeahhhh, very intelligent. It's like using the bible as factual reference when debating with an atheist--it has no value. "See, sweet Tamar got permission from Geezus to draw those pictures and it was all the Lord's doing!" Uh-huh, but I don't believe in a Geezus, so how can you explain that the prophecies with perfectly corresponding art came AFTER the original paintings...? "Uh...what? I dunno, let's ask mama Maria and Queen Peter..."
To them, their little make-believe world is very real and anything said against it is a lie, no matter how logical it may be. They need serious mental help if you ask me...
(reply to this comment)
| from One Who Knows
Monday, November 24, 2003 - 09:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
As far as their ABSURD claims that the quotes on the presentation were "doctored" or changed, this is just such a typical Family "smokescreen" tactic, and I highly doubt anyone even compared the interview with the quotes before they started rattling off their programmed stock answers. If they did, they obviously can't read. (Please excuse the insult, it's just that it's a little too obvious to anyone with an open mind!)
I have TF's own "Word" computer program called "Infostore", and I pulled the interview from that, and put the quotes from the presentation into for comparison. Any one who posts on the Family Youth Group, please feel free to post this interview for them.
Interview with Tamar, From the “Free Zine #41” --April 2000
My first "spiritual experience" with my art was when I was doing the cover for the Cathar GN. I was drawing the Cathar girl at the top of the picture, and using some reference to help me in the drawing of her hair. I was working away, when very clearly I heard a girl's voice say, "Let go, let go, don't use the reference." I thought to myself, "Mmmm, that's funny," and silly me, I just continued using the reference. Again I heard this same voice, "Let go, Tamar, let go. Don't use the reference." It was at this point I literally got goose bumps all over, it was as if I could feel her leaning over my shoulder directing me. So I proceeded to draw the hair without using the reference, and it was as if someone else was working through my fingers. It's difficult to describe, but it was like I was in a detached sense almost watching my own hand draw, but I wasn't controlling my hand. I was simply "letting go" and watching it draw. (I had the same thing happen recently when drawing the cover for the Feast "Consecration Ceremony" GN. I was shading the boys' jeans, and for about 30 seconds, I had that same amazing experience of losing control of my hand.)
So anyway, the Cathar GN went out to the Family, and it must have been a couple of weeks later that someone here (unbeknownst to me) noticed something peculiar about the girl at the top of the picture: She had six fingers on one of her hands instead of five! When it was first discovered, it wasn't brought to my attention. I think people were wondering how to tell me, ha! I was oblivious to this "mistake."
(On Page with Cathar GN Picture: “The Cathar GN went out to the Family, and it must have been a couple of weeks later that someone here (unbeknownst to me) noticed something peculiar about the girl at the top of the picture: She had six fingers on one of her hands instead of five! ”)
However, during this time, someone who knew about the six fingers received some amazing messages from the Lord about it early one morning. I'll include excerpts below of these messages:
(Jesus speaking:) It may seem at first that the woman with the extra finger was a simple blunder. But I say that I allowed this to happen for a specific purpose. The most important is that this was the characteristic of one of those who delivered the message to you . Of course, there was no physical way to know that and I chose not to reveal this earlier through the initial prophecy of direction about this picture. This was a work of My Spirit.
When I gathered this dear Cathar spirit helper into My arms many years ago, she was given the choice to have a normal five-finger hand or to keep the six fingers, which on Earth was considered a deformity. Her decision was to keep the extra finger, because it was a reminder to her of what I had brought her through while on Earth. This extra finger is not considered a deformity at all in My Heavenly kingdom, because it is part of the beautiful person I made her.
It is My desire to show My dear Tamar that her hands are indeed guided by the spirit world . Sometimes she senses it, but most of the time it happens unbeknownst to her. My spirit helpers not only put ideas and pictures into her mind, but also sometimes actually physically move her hands . She certainly did not put the extra finger there on purpose, and it is unlikely that she would make such a mistake. However, I allowed this peculiar feature to be drawn both to humble her and in order to show her and everyone else that it is not you that speak, write, create, draw, cook, clean, teach, but My Spirit that does all of these things through you.
(On page with Cathar GN picture: “[Jesus speaking:]… this was the characteristic of one of those who delivered the message to you… [Tamar’s] hands are indeed guided by the spirit world…My spirit helpers not only put ideas and pictures into her mind, but also sometimes actually physically move her hands.” )
If she had consciously received in the Spirit that this spirit helper had six fingers, then she may have given credit to her own channel and talent. But I chose to move her hands in the spirit and literally draw for her, causing her to lose control and put that extra finger on . I know that this will be humbling for her, but this humbling process is part of My will for her.
(On page with Boris Vallejo’s Snake women picture: “[Jesus speaking:]… this was the characteristic of one of those who delivered the message to you… I chose to move her hands in the spirit and literally draw for her, causing her to lose control and put that extra finger on.” )
* * *
(Jesus speaking:) I haven't failed you, even in this picture, even in this hand with the six fingers-this is not the "mistake" that you think it is. I've used this to show you something that you didn't know. Your spirit helpers are working very closely with you, very, very closely, so much so that sometimes you've felt their presence, their anointing. This is partly what happened at the time of drawing this picture. Your spirit helper was working so closely with you, that you even felt her hand upon your hand, to the point that you even drew part of her hand-thus the sixth finger.
This is one of My Cathar spirit helpers who now helps you from the spirit world. You've drawn her spirit, her beauty, and she is truly beautiful, isn't she?
She was not perfect in body, but she is perfect in spirit, in love and faith. She will help you to portray the weakness that manifests the beauty of My Spirit. I allowed it to encourage you with your new spirit helper, to encourage you that even though this looks like a mistake, it's going to bear good fruit in your life and in your art work. She will help you and anoint you with the simplicity of My Spirit, the beauty of weakness. (End of excerpts of messages from Jesus.)
So thank You Jesus, because of that experience and the messages received, the Cathar GN has a very special place in my heart. I know the Lord also used it to encourage me and give me an extra boost of faith that He and His helpers are going to do it through me, even though I often feel like I just don't have the capability or talent myself.
Question: Do you have a specific spirit helper who helps you with art?
Answer: Well, I probably have a few I don't know about yet, but from Elena, my Cathar spirit helper mentioned above, I also have another young female spirit helper called "Ink Courage." As well as being an artist herself, her particular mission with me is as an encourager, hence her name. Also, someone received a message for me a while back from my personal heavenly tutor, Lucidian. He said that in the Heavenlies each gift or talent that is given to man, whether it is music or art or dance or writing, has an angel who is over that particular talent or gift. Lucidian is over the gift of art and beauty and illustrating, and he has been assigned to guide my hand and thoughts as I work. I must say it's quite awesome to think that I have spirit helpers like Lucidian and Elena, but that's where faith comes in, and I definitely know and can actually feel at times that I have spirit helpers working through me, because in the natural I know that my talent is small and relatively undeveloped. I think that's why the Lord has compensated for that by giving me quite a few helpers in the spirit.
Question: How does it normally work for you when you get a new GN to do art for? Do you read it first? Pray? Or do you normally get suggestions about what should be drawn?
Answer: When I first started doing GN art about a year ago, I didn't really need to read the GN first, because someone else would usually pray and hear from the Lord on the art. Then I would simply follow through on the Lord's instructions. Just illustrating the GN was all very new to me, so I was very thankful that I didn't have the added responsibility of also praying and hearing from the Lord on exactly what the picture should be and all the details. Of course, Mama is the one who approves the art idea, but still, even to pray and receive the ideas from the Lord is quite an awesome responsibility .
(On page with the “Opiate of the System” picture: “Of course, Mama is the one who approves the art idea, but still, even to pray and receive the ideas from the Lord is quite an awesome responsibility.” )
At the time I know I wasn't quite ready for this responsibility, but the Lord slowly eased me into it, and after awhile I was asked if I'd like to try to hear from the Lord on the idea for the art, so I began first reading the GNs, then praying about the art idea. Sometimes someone else will hear from the Lord for the GN art idea, but for the most part nowadays I hear from the Lord regarding the art ideas . I must admit, this new step was pretty daunting for me at first, but our wonderful Husband is always so faithful, and as I stepped out by faith and asked Him for the specifics of the picture, He never failed me.
(On page with girl in rain: “I hear from the Lord regarding the art ideas .”)
Of course, praying about the art idea is just the first step. I then send the prophecy and idea around to my co-workers for their approval, in case they have any further questions or clarifications on the picture that they feel we should ask the Lord about. Then it is submitted for Mama's approval, after which I take it from there, continuing to ask the Lord on any details needed as I go. It's been a wonderful learning experience for me, because even though it's been hard on my pride and sensitivity at times, and hard on my natural "independent artist" nature wanting to do it all by myself, I know that it's taught me wonderful lessons on teamworking, humility, receiving instruction (which is a continuing process by the Lord's grace!), and great dependence on the Lord and others. I know, and can testify beyond a shadow of a doubt, that all the credit goes to the Lord and my wonderful teammates (here and in the spirit world!) for each and every GN picture .-It's a real teamwork effort.
(On page with girl under waterfall picture: “I know, and can testify beyond a shadow of a doubt, that all the credit goes to the Lord and my wonderful teammates (here and in the spirit world!) for each and every GN picture.”
Question : Do you have the gift of prophecy? Do you use it in your work?
Answer: Yes, I have the gift of prophecy , and it's a very important part of my work on the GN art. The Lord continually reminds me that He wants me to seek Him on each step of the GN art and every detail of the picture . At times my flesh and pride fight against this, and I'd have to be honest and say that it's required a concentrated disciplining of myself to really do this: to ask Him step by step on every detail of the art. I would say by nature I'm quite lazy spiritually, so this was a revolution in my life, but I know the Lord has really blessed this acknowledging and seeking Him for each picture, rather than just going along on my merry way leaning to my own natural artistic leadings, as I have done in the past.
(On page with picture of guy swinging a sword: “I have the gift of prophecy…The Lord continually reminds me that He wants me to seek Him on each step of the GN art and every detail of the picture.”)
Of course, in the past, I would always pray and ask the Lord to help me before I started my artwork, but it's been a real awakening for me over the past year or so to see just how much the Lord loves, and in fact desires, to get involved with every picture and its details, because then the picture can be all that He wants it to be and portray His wonderful Words and message the way He knows best, and the Lord can get the most mileage possible out of each picture.
(Introduction page : “…the Lord loves, and in fact desires, to get involved with every picture and its details, because then the picture can be all that He wants it to be and portray His wonderful Words and message the way He knows best, and the Lord can get the most mileage possible out of each picture.” )
(Repeated on page with girl on horse with flaming sword picture: “…the Lord loves…to get involved with every picture and its details.” )
I'm reminded of a beautiful birthday prophecy someone received for me last year and the Lord told me that He wanted each GN picture to be like "a visual prophecy, My whispers made manifest, My virtual reality." That is my prayer and deepest heart's desire, that I can capture His Words, His Light, and His Spirit through each picture . But I know that I can only do that through desperately claiming His anointing and help, and continually, step by step seeking Him through prophecy for each picture, whether that be through asking the Lord myself, or having one of my co-workers ask the Lord for the details needed.
(Introduction page: “The Lord told me that He wanted each GN picture to be like "a visual prophecy, My whispers made manifest, My virtual reality."… I know that I can only do that through… seeking Him through prophecy for each picture, or having one of my co-workers ask the Lord for the details needed”. )
(Repeated on page with Natalia picture: “The Lord told me that He wanted each GN picture to be like a visual prophecy.”)
(On page with girl sitting with space hair: “That is my prayer and deepest heart's desire, that I can capture His Words, His Light, and His Spirit through each picture.” )
Question : Do you have any tips or pointers you'd give to budding artists? Anything you can think of that might help them in their learning stage?
Answer: Wow, another toughie. I don't quite know what to say because I have so much to learn myself and don't feel I have very much to offer people in the way of technical advice or tips. Even though I've been around for awhile, I don't consider myself one of the Family "greats" as far as artists go.
I look at the work of Eman, Philippe La Plume, Zeb, Laban, Jeremy, Jacques Elan (and you too, dear David Komic!) and I often get hit with comparing and feeling like I have such a long, long ways to go. These boys are the ones who have a lot to offer others in the way of tips and pointers and real technical know-how and expertise, and their work is a constant testament to that. (Dear Willing [Philippe]: I wanted to take this opportunity to tell you that I love you, and thank God for all the time and patience you invested in me way back in India when we worked together on the DM project. I'm forever indebted to you!)
But I know that aside from the Lord rekindling within me a very deep desire to draw for Him, like Dad said, "it's the Spirit, it's the Spirit, it's the Spirit wild and free! … Thru' the Spirit, thru' the Spirit I can see the Other Side"; and that, more than anything, is what I really pray each one of our budding Family artists can strive for: to really suck and pull down the Lord's Spirit into their art. That's what makes a picture come to life and move people. Otherwise, even if a picture is technically good, it's just a pretty picture and lines on a page without the Lord's Spirit.
So, dear budding artists and artists-to-be: Love Jesus, our wonderful Husband and Lover with a passion!-With all of your heart, soul, mind and body! Draw close to Him, so that He can draw close to you and His Spirit can flow out through your fingers onto paper!
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| from porceleindoll
Monday, November 24, 2003 - 02:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, can you tell I really got into this one? Hahahahaha!
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