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Getting Out : Inside Out
I propose a formal debate | from Albatross - Tuesday, July 16, 2002
accessed 3187 times Is " The Family" willing to answer questions in a back-and-forth debate without first requiring us to be "friendly" and in the process of "peacefully forgetting our experiences?
I propose a formal debate. By formal, I mean a polite, reasoned, respectful and researched debate.
I do not know what position “The Family” (By “The Family”, I mean official spokespersons and/or leadership) takes on dealing with its increasingly more vocal and active ex-member young people. We do know that they read this site and have responded on two occasions (as far as I can tell).
We have had our share of ramblings by well-intentioned – if somewhat inept- current Family young people.
Does “The Family” have any interest in responding in a back-and-forth forum with prearranged guidelines (to be mutually agreed upon)?
Naturally this debate would have to be a focused one and therefore would require that the group of debaters be limited (open of course to the points, questions, and suggestions of all)
I have made no secret of my desire to participate in what I see as the responsible parties being brought to justice. But I believe that while that effort continues, it may be in the interest of “The Family” to hear and respond to specific questions and comments from many of us here.
To Claire in “The Family”: One does not always have the luxury of picking one’s opponents. It is indeed possible that we all wish we had never heard of the others. But we are thrust into something we did not choose. Do you or your colleagues wish to debate?
I think it must be clear that if there were to be a debate it could not take place under an “attitude adjustment” on our part. We are the way we are for a reason. We can however agree to be civil and orderly, at least for the duration of any official debate.
You can email me by linking on my screen name “albatross” in the directory, or you can ask my father Ado for my other email address. I welcome a response.
Daniel
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from sar
Friday, August 30, 2002 - 22:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
Why do so many of you have to be shit heads and take things so seriously? What the fuck is wrong with bein happy? it really doesn't seem all that bad.
(reply to this comment)
|  From Albatross
Friday, August 30, 2002, 22:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sar,
I looked up "shitheads" in the dictionary. I could not find it. Nothing is at all wrong with being happy. It is your mistake to think that we are unhappy. Having the odd dust up with an abuser from ones past, and enjoying life and being happy are not always at odds. Many things make me happy, one of which is the fact that I don't have your glaring lack of eloquence.
Daniel(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Albatross
Friday, August 30, 2002, 23:30
(Agree/Disagree?)
Did you look up "misnomer"? It's what your screenname is not. You might also look up the word sarcasm. It's what my response to Sar was. The point being that while mediocre scatological name calling has it's place in the quiver of the ernest insult hurler, I take more notice of he/she whose insults are at least an attempt at wit or sarcasm.
But seriously: Agreed.....it's all about the debates, senseless, and serious, laudable and laughable. Long may they wage.
Daniel(reply to this comment) |
| | From monkeyfart
Saturday, August 31, 2002, 00:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
Verily, notwithstanding my mortal cyber pseudonym which I have assumed doth belie my true divinity. My true celestial identity is known to all creatures in both supernal and infernal regions. For I have transcended the realm of ordinary primate blastulation and now as a divinity are known to all non-cyber-mortals as the "Breaker of Great Wind" spirit, worshiped, feared, and honoured throughout all realms and regions.
Say your “prayers” daily. May the love of Terrence and Phillip be with you always.- Piece to all.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | from Geek
Thursday, July 25, 2002 - 22:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
That's great, Albatross. Jules tries to make it pretty clear in her disclaimer that FGA's shouldn't be poking their noses around here, so you do your best to single out FGA's (spokespersons and/or leadership). I.e. your challenge to debate is just rhetorical so you can say “nobody took me up on my challenge so the Family is bad, bad, bad.”
A lot of Family members have had to put up with a lot of crap, including crap from leadership, but that doesn’t make the Family symbol equal to a swastika or Family leadership equal to the agents in “the Matrix”. I’m sorry if you’re one of the ones who had to put up with crap but maybe it’s time to get over it and realize that everyone in the world is forced to put up with crap at some time for some reason.
(reply to this comment)
| From Felicia
Wednesday, August 07, 2002, 10:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
I didn't go through alot of the things you guys did. I also didn't allow those things to go on or put my six kids through that sex stough. I think it was on the scale of each home as to how they took things. I did have some problems in Italy years ago with leadership trying to take my childrens passports. I left the country so that wouldn't happen. That leadership was relieved of their responsibilty by Dad. I think that people who didn't like things that were going on needed to tell leadership above the local situation and deal with it. As I did I felt so strongly that it wasn't right and I did something about it, I didn't just sit there and take it. The Family the doctrine and all is definetly the Lord's entime church and is doing more to save souls than anyone I know and that's the most important thing. You kids need to go on with your lives. Even people in the world have many problems that they go through, but you must keep pushing forward. I am FM and I love all you kids and if you need my help I would love to be of help if I can. Please never give up on Jesus He love you all so much and will never give up on you even if you make excuses not to talk to him because of what people have done to you. Love Felicia(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From hope
Friday, August 23, 2002, 15:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, the above comment is written by my mother. So in order to keep things honest, I must set the record straight.
The oldest 3 children were from my dad, Dom. Felicia allowed my younger brother to travel overseas with my dad and stepmom (Jael aka Free), and did not see her son (Dominic Jr.) for 10 years.
Back in the U.S., my mom had 3 more kids with her live-in boyfriend. All 5 of of which suffered some sort of abuse from this monster, but I suffered the most severe abuse (both physical and sexual).
Such abuse was not an isolated incident either. It was repeated over a period of 10 long, horrible years.
There was nobody to protect me or stand up for me during this horrific period of my life (6-16 years old). My mom lied for him even when I was taken to the hospital for my injuries, and my dad had forsaken me to follow God.
I am now 30 years old with a family of my own, and although in the beginning I used corporal punishment on my daughter, I no longer use or allow the use of corporal punishment on my children (2 of them now).
I have moved on, but part of that is being honest about what really happened in the past, and making damn sure it is not repeated, especially on my own kids.
My younger brothers and sisters (the ones born of Felicia, ages 20 - 28) seem unable to live normal lives (hold jobs, support themselves, in & out of jail/prison, etc.). I believe this is because they have not moved on.
They are still in denial about what really happened in the past, and they have never confronted their issues. In fact, ALL of them still have casual contact with the person who inflicted the abuse, even the 2 who aren't even his kids.
While I don't blame all of the abuse on The Family, I do believe that their doctrines on discipline and sex with minors provided my parents and others with what they perceived to be justification if not complete excuse for their actions and inactions concerning child abuse/molestation.
By the way, my mom did finally leave the horrible man who made my life a living hell. However, it was not until we were adults, so it did nothing to stop the abuse.
Needless to say, I cannot and will never again accept religion in any form. Religious people can find justification for anything they do, including ill-treatment and neglect of their own children.
Moreover, if the all-powerful Jesus loved me and others in my situation, he would not allowed the abuse to occur.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From hope
Saturday, August 24, 2002, 00:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dear Uncle Whoever You Are,
Don't come around here telling me what you can do for me when you don't even have the guts to identify yourself. Do I know you?
Besides, if you had read my comment, you would know that I HAVE MOVED ON. If I pretended like these things didn't happen then I would not have moved on.
How would you propose to help me anyways? Tell me to just forget everything, love everyone, and trust the Lord.
I haven't done enough drugs in my lifetime to accept that. If this Uncle character is really my dad, then Dad, you should know better by now.
I have chosen to be a good and moral person who does not believe in Jesus or God. Respect that and move on to another website. You're going to be hard-pressed to find converts here.(reply to this comment) |
| | From uncle
Saturday, August 24, 2002, 00:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dear Hope, firstly. No you don't know me and i am not your dad. second. I read your comment, and i'm not for one second suggesting that you forget ANYTHING, in fact it is your good memory that could bring the barstards to justice. We are starting legal action against the " family" for previouse injustices. I.E world wide organised child sexual,physicle and mental abuse. Will you help? (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From hope
Friday, August 23, 2002, 15:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, the above comment is written by my mother. So in order to keep things honest, I must set the record straight.
The oldest 3 children were from my dad, Dom. Felicia allowed my younger brother to travel overseas with my dad and stepmom (Jael aka Free), and did not see her son (Dominic Jr.) for 10 years.
Back in the U.S., my mom had 3 more kids with her live-in boyfriend. All 5 of of which suffered some sort of abuse from this monster, but I suffered the most severe abuse (both physical and sexual).
Such abuse was not an isolated incident either. It was repeated over a period of 10 long, horrible years.
There was nobody to protect me or stand up for me during this horrific period of my life (6-16 years old). My mom lied for him even when I was taken to the hospital for my injuries, and my dad had forsaken me to follow God.
I am now 30 years old with a family of my own, and although in the beginning I used corporal punishment on my daughter, I no longer use or allow the use of corporal punishment on my children (2 of them now).
I have moved on, but part of that is being honest about what really happened in the past, and making damn sure it is not repeated, especially on my own kids.
My younger brothers and sisters (the ones born of Felicia, ages 20 - 28) seem unable to live normal lives (hold jobs, support themselves, in & out of jail/prison, etc.). I believe this is because they have not moved on.
They are still in denial about what really happened in the past, and they have never confronted their issues. In fact, ALL of them still have casual contact with the person who inflicted the abuse, even the 2 who aren't even his kids.
While I don't blame all of the abuse on The Family, I do believe that their doctrines on discipline and sex with minors provided my parents and others with what they perceived to be justification if not complete excuse for their actions and inactions concerning child abuse/molestation.
By the way, my mom did finally leave the horrible man who made my life a living hell. However, it was not until we were adults, so it did nothing to stop the abuse.
Needless to say, I cannot and will never again accept religion in any form. Regligious people can find justification for anything they do, including ill-treatment and neglect of their own children.
Moreover, if the all-powerful Jesus loved me and others in my situation, he would not allowed the abuse to occur.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From JohnnieWalker
Sunday, August 11, 2002, 09:58
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Felicia, you wrote: “The Family the doctrine and all is definetly the Lord's entime church and is doing more to save souls than anyone I know and that's the most important thing”
First of all: Where is the proof (besides in its own writings) that the Family is the Lord’s Endtime army? There certainly isn’t anything in the Bible about it (except for the usual generic verses in Ezekiel which have been used by several other groups to claim supremacy).
Second: Let’s define saving souls. What do you mean by saving souls? Do you mean what we used to do on the streets as children, getting people to repeat a few sentences after us (not to mention getting them to part with some of their small change) and assuring them that to do so would grant them the right to “go to Heaven”, after which both parties would go merrily on their way, one with another digit on his stat sheet and the other with a large question mark over her head? Or perhaps you mean singing “Into my Heart” to an audience of thousands and counting as one saved soul each of the people that mumbled along to lyrics in a language half-foreign to them.
If this is your definition of soul winning then the Family is, by all means, “winning” more souls than anyone.
What I understand from a “soul saved” is someone who’s life has been changed for the better; someone who through the experience of sincerely asking Jesus into their heart (not just doing it in order to appease the grinning ten-year-old who has a death grip on their hand) has found stability in their faith and morals. How many more cases of that does the Family have than the average active church? Not many sad to say – especially when you consider that most of the group’s own youth (although they deny this) are now turning away from Christianity thanks to their version of it. They may be winning some, but they’re loosing a lot too, which calls into question how much of an actual “winning” it was.
From my experience in the Family (and I’m sure from yours too, if you’d be real honest) most of the numbers entered on the TRF under “Soul won:” were a “guess-timate” and in many cases a slightly inflated stat which was reported to the office so that our Home could win the Pentium II computer which WS was chucking out of one of their offices because they had upgraded.
Another question for you: What’s the use of “winning the World for Jesus” when your own example and the way you attempt to do it is turning your children into heathens? Wouldn’t “training up a child” be the more important thing?(reply to this comment) |
| | From Mack
Saturday, December 28, 2002, 03:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wow brother you hit it right on the head. I couldn't have said it better my self. The Family is so full of it, and programmed it is sad to say. I really wish that TF and other lost fools could just see how far gone they really are. But I especially feel sorry for the ones who were raised with nothing else in their future, its like the eight year old child in Palestine who thinks that killing Jews with as a suicide bomber will get him 72 virgins in heaven. It is all they know. Well, thats what happens when you take away a child's freedom to make decisions, and program them to your own sick twisted reality. It happened in the Family and it will continue to happen as long as there are people who feel that they are above the law and listen to Religious freaks. I wish that there were no religion. Can you imagine a world with no religion? It would be great, and then we could all get along. An end to war and suffering at last.(reply to this comment) |
| | From ruffneck
Saturday, December 28, 2002, 13:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
Good post, Mack, though IMO, war & suffering (et cetera) aren't limited to religious freaks. We athiests are just as capable of propagating war and suffering as the most fanatical of religious devotees.Some other more real motivations for war & suffering are ethnic, economic and (hehe) p.e.r.s.o.n.a.l. - Just ask Dubya! Religion is usually the handiest excuse with which to convince the masses to accept your planned slaughters, - at least that could be inferred from a quick look back at history.
Though I do agree with your thoughts on freedom of conscience, and never having an oportunity to make a real decision when having been raised in the group.
L.
PS as an afterthought to anyone that defends the bible as "word of god", (and I don't mean to raise anyone's hackles here) isn't the Old Testament pretty much filled with the extolled exploits of "Men of God" that make Saddam, Bin-Laden and Milosevic look like lily white saints? I refer to the Genocide of the Canaanites, The Massacre at Jericho, et al. How about when Samuel cursed Saul for not slaughtering everything that drew breath? or 'Saul has slain his thousands, David his tens of thousands"? I think it's interesting to look at well-known bible stories through the lens of today's reality. Anyway, thoughts/discussion welcome :)
Lee
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| | From Mack
Saturday, December 28, 2002, 03:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wow brother you hit it right on the head. I couldn't have said it better my self. The Family is so full of it, and programmed it is sad to say. I really wish that TF and other lost fools could just see how far gone they really are. But I especially feel sorry for the ones who were raised with nothing else in their future, its like the eight year old child in Palestine who thinks that killing Jews with as a suicide bomber will get him 72 virgins in heaven. It is all they know. Well, that’s what happens when you take away a child's freedom to make decisions, and program them to your own sick twisted reality. It happened in the Family and it will continue to happen as long as there are people who feel that they are above the law and listen to Religious freaks. I wish that there were no religion. Can you imagine a world with no religion? It would be great, and then we could all get along. An end to war and suffering at last.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Felicia
Sunday, September 01, 2002, 06:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm sure the family has made alot of mistakes. I forgive them for all the things they have done wrong as I am not perfect either. Although I didn't know my daughter was being sexually abused until after the fact. I would never have condoned such a thing. I believe the other childred still comminicate with their father because none of those things happened to them. Although in my ways of thinking he was abusive in other ways in their training, but I guess the other kids forgive him and don't care about the past.
I believe any counselor would tell you to forget the past and get on with your life or you will always have problems.
As far as the kids in the CM family being real soul winners, they are very sacrificial and spend most of thier lives in concern for others. Of course no one is perfect but I have been in the homes and they are so sweet to be around.
I am so sorry all of you kids are having a hard time with life.
Things are so bad in the world right now I believe people should be getting together to try and help each other. Life is too short for all this crap we need to love one another and help each other. People all over the are fighting wars and innocent people dying every day. To me this is very sad seeing mothers crying on tv over children who have been killed. People dying of hunger when there is so much food here that we throw away and you guys are fighting over past issues and the things you think are problems. Try and help someone else and you will forget.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From JohnnieWalker
Monday, September 02, 2002, 02:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
Felicia, my questions were not rhetorical. If you're going to reply, it would be nice of you to at least address the questions I asked you.
Let me see if I understand you correctly. You believe that the salvation of hundreds of thousands of people is guaranteed because kids in the CM Family are "very sacrificial" and "so sweet to be around". Is this correct?
You say, "I am so sorry all of you kids are having a hard time with life." Are we? How would you know? I (and I am sure hundreds of others on this site) are having a great time. The only time in my life that I had a "hard time" was when I was in the Family, stuggling to get out tapes and videos in order to pay off the Home's ever growing debts.
You say that "mothers crying on tv over children who have been killed" is very sad to you. What about sons and daughters in The Family (what you as an FM member should consider to be your own family) crying because they were beaten or abused. No tugs on your heart's strings from that?
Your wrong about one thing. We're not "fighting over past issues" we are fighting to prevent past issues from arising again. I hope you see the difference.(reply to this comment) |
| | From jpmagero
Sunday, September 01, 2002, 18:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
Felicia: "I believe people should be getting together to try and help each other. Life is too short for all this crap we need to love one another and help each other"
I would like to hear you show at least this much attitude against your daughters being abused. Suddenly the victim become the guilty? You try to whitewash the crimes of a pervert by using dying children as an excuse? If everyone looked after their own back yard, the world would be a much better place. So unless you are doing something about those dying children, stop attacking the innocent and stand against the known perverts. Defend your children for cryin out loud.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Felicia Amoroso
Monday, September 02, 2002, 06:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
I am not attacking anyone. I do care about my daughter and I wish there was something I could do to clear up her mind from the past. I happen to love her very much, but I am at a loss for what can be done to change things.
And as far as the family is concerned that will never happen again there is so much more supervision. Sex with minors is strickly prohibited.
By the way what happened with my daughter had nothing to do with the family as I wasn't in the family and I would never agree to that anyway.
I would also like to help the kids get over there problems from the family. I don't think the mistakes of people should make you blame the Lord and just forsake all the good you have learned.
Jesus would never make you do anything you didn't want to do or he would have made you a robot so He could have complete control.(reply to this comment) |
| | From wildirishrose
Monday, April 21, 2003, 11:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
No, Jesus might not, but the Family sure as hell did make us do things we didn't want to do, and in His Name too! --Claiming that it was "Him" who wanted us to do it. They attempt at every turn to have complete control IN HIS NAME, and that is quite possibly the reason why some of us, as you said, "blame the Lord and forsake all the good(?) we learned." The Family has made us see things through their eyes long enough, now all we are asking is that they (as in our parents who are still in) try to see things through our eyes. It's only fair. (reply to this comment) |
| | From monkeyfart
Sunday, September 01, 2002, 17:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
"I forgive them for all the things they have done wrong as I am not perfect either".- What about crime and punishment? Does anyone account for abuses any more? Or, does the suffering in the rest of the world mean that you can wash your hands of the hurt inflicted on your own kids and say, "well get over it someone else is suffering more than you". Don't you realise when you talk like that you sound so hardened, uncaring and cruel? You remind me of person who's been in a war zone her whole life and has experienced so much pain she doesn't know how to sympathise with anyone who's suffered less than her. You can decide to "crucify" yourself any which way from Sunday, but you have no right to expect the same from your kids. Let them grow up and make their own responsible decisions without always dictating what’s right & wrong with your self-mutilating ideals.
I take you up on your statement about going to a counsellor. You and your daughter should both go and have a chat to one, I can assure you he will say nothing like "forget the past and get on with your life or you will always have problems". - That is such a simplistic and hardened standpoint totally devoid of human sympathy and understanding.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Sunday, September 01, 2002, 07:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Felicia, what is wrong with you?
As a mother it is your responsiblity to protect your children. How nice that you do not condone the sexual abuse of your children. Where is your outrage? Where is your anger at the violation of their innocence? Where are your maternal instincts?
This numb, inhuman denial is what many of us face from our own parents.
You have no right to demand that anyone else forgive. Forgiveness is between the wronged and the wrong doer and no one else. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Felicia
Monday, September 02, 2002, 06:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
You have no idea what I went through or what I am going through over this. I just don't talk about it over and over because it is very hard to relive that everday and still go to work and deal with people.
You guys must have nothing better to do than complain.
If any of the kids that used to be in the family have problems I care about them also. When I was in leadership non of those things happened and would have happened or I would have excummicated them. Which my husband did for something minor compared to what you kids went through.
Don't you think that some people claimed to be in the family and were doing their own thing. There was not enough supervision.(reply to this comment) |
| | From K.
Monday, April 21, 2003, 11:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
enough supervision? Too much more like. You say "IF" the kids have problems DOHH the family abused kids "let me count the ways.."
Your daughter just needs you to be honest and admit you stood by and did nothing for whatever reason, she just needs an apology from the heart. What upsets is that many parents can't and won't see what they need to apologise for, as you still seem to feel. (reply to this comment) |
| | From jpmagero
Tuesday, September 03, 2002, 14:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
How old are you? Or are you on drugs? You posts don't make much sense. I think I get what you're saying, but your writing is so poor it's hard to follow.
There was a post from someone claiming to be your daughter. If what she says is true, "minor" is not how your husbands actions were described and you are accused of having knowledge of his actions without taking any of your own against him at the time.
And, btw, I have plenty to do (besides complain). You read some posts and assume it takes us all day to think them up and write them, but we all have our lives and visit this site at our leisure.
Take care!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From MagicGreenPants
Tuesday, September 03, 2002, 10:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
Everyone is so weak minded I've noticed(thats bad)
These are some things I try to incorporate into my behaviour
1) Be Assertive, but -
2) Don't be Aggressive, yet -
3) Speak your mind, to allow you to -
4) Be consistent in interaction, and -
5) Think positive, which will result in -
6) Acting positive, which makes you -
7) Think positive, no matter what!
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From monkeyfart
Monday, September 02, 2002, 20:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
"Not enough supervision".- That’s your big reason, your big excuse? - Typically said by someone who has given up responsibility for themselves and their actions. Typically said by someone who actually thinks adults require "more supervision" to ensure they keep the law. You therefore admit to being a member of a cult in which you are aware that the adult members require strict supervision to ensure they keep basic laws, yet you have allowed your children to be subjected to the "supervision" of these same untrustworthy and potentially criminal members.
Fact: You have allowed your children to be exposed to elements which have caused hurt and injury. Fact: You are not taking appropriate steps to make things right, correct and rectify the harm done. These facts along with numerous others known to those of us who had our childhoods taken away by "The Family" would indicate you have failed in your motherly responsibilities and would probably be very likely to allow further harm to occur in the future.
You say we "don't know what you went through etc...". Spare us!! Your "story" is more than familiar to those of us with parents still in or who were in "The Family". Fact: You as a grown-up chose your life, regardless of how twisted and harmful it may be so you have no one to blame for "what you are going through" but you. Fact: Your kids deserve the chance to be exposed to the rest of society not deprived of it. They, unlike you are not social lepers. You harm your children by disassociating them from the rest of the world.
My advice to you would be to seek professional guidance and help with regards to your personal and family problems. Understandably, no one can change the past, however it is what you do today (or do not do) that will affect the future. I suggest you start trying to fix things now and change the present, or prepare to reap the whirlwind.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Monday, September 02, 2002, 18:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
Felicia,
It's not about you or what you went through. It's about what your children went through because you didn't take a stand for them. It's about what hundreds if not thousands of other children born in the Family went through because no one took a stand for any of us.
You sound so much like my own mother. Just because it's difficult to face reality doesn't excuse you from doing it. We do it. It is painful to face the ugly truth, but I believe it's the first step to healing.
I go to work everyday and "deal with with people", I have gotten on with my life and am proud of my success. I also try to face the facts and ask myself the tough questions.
I don't know you or your family, but for me, the fact that no one cared was the worst thing of all. There was no outrage from my parents, no comfort and no place to feel safe and loved. All I got was the same nonsense you are spouting here, the mindless defense of the family despite what being raised in this group had done to their own children.
We are adults now, and I can now be to myself the guardian and protector I always longed for. I have stopped hoping for my parents to care and try to simply take them where they are at. They will never be parents to me though, and as difficult as that is, it's reality and I accept it.
What help exactly are you trying to offer, Felicia? Why do people need supervision to not molest and abuse children? Shouldn't the God you worship prevent his followers from doing these things to innocents? Why are you afraid of these questions? (reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules Rules
Tuesday, September 03, 2002, 10:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thank you Jules. As a child, I also longed for somebody to take a stand stand for me (and my peers). Once in a blue moon, somebody took a bit of a stand, against what they felt they could I guess, and I will take the gratefulness for that rare moment of hope to my grave, while still wishing more had been done.
I identify pretty much verbatim with your assessment of where you stand now with your life, moving on indeed -- yet when I am feeling strong, facing, bit by bit, the "ugly truth," as you have called it (that is, when I am taking time off from indulging judiciously in some Denial, which can be refreshing).
I have been told to "mother myself," but it can be hard not to take that, however unconsciously it happens, to mean "be toward myself as my mother was to me." I am working on being the mother to myself that I'd hope to be to a child of mine.
Reading things like your post, Jules, I feel like I am getting a bit of that mothering after the fact. It feels like you are taking that stand I wished for so dearly! So thank you.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Felicia
Sunday, September 01, 2002, 06:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm sure the family has made alot of mistakes. I forgive them for all the things they have done wrong as I am not perfect either. Although I didn't know my daughter was sexually abused until after the fact. I would never have condoned such a thing. I believe the other childred still comminicate with their father because none of those things happened to them. Although in my ways of thinking he was abusive in other ways in their training, but I guess the other kids forgive him and don't care about the past.
I believe any counselor would tell you to forget the past and get on with your life or you will always have problems.
As far as the kids in the CM family being real soul winners, they are very sacrificial and spend most of thier lives in concern for others. Of course no one is perfect but I have been in the homes and they are so sweet to be around.
I am so sorry all of your kids are having a hard time with life.
Things are so bad in the world right now I believe people should be getting together to try and help each other. Life is too short for all this crap we need to love one another and help each other. People all over the are fighting wars and innocent people dying every day. To me this is very sad seeing mothers crying on tv over children who have been killed. Plople dying of hunger when there is so much food here that we throw away and you guys are fighting over past issues and your things you think are problems. I think you should be thankful for what you have.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Lord Justice Ward on Forgetting the Past
Sunday, September 08, 2002, 15:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
"....World Services are not referring here to the ten children who made confession at the 1986 Mexico TTC. World Services knew full well that the problem was much more widespread than that. The notice continued:-
'So if you happen to be a teen who happened to have any kind of involvement or experience along these lines, we wanted to encourage you that you do not need to feel condemned, guilty, ashamed or confused. When you read in the letters how any and all such activities are now strictly forbidden and that anyone who engages in them will be excommunicated, you don't need to go to extremes and start getting worried about your health and your past. You'd be much better off if you just trust the Lord and believe that your past is all in His hands and leave it there!'
The psychiatric evidence I have heard expresses the view, with which I agree, that rather than suppress these horrors, they should be brought out into the open, fully and frankly acknowledged, and then dealt with, with skilled therapeutic help if necessary. Prayer may well be a help but Maria's advice to bury the past and pretend it did not happen is wrong and unacceptable."(reply to this comment) |
| | From Albatross
Sunday, September 01, 2002, 20:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
Keep posting Felicia.
You are our best argument. Your ill formed concepts of forgiveness and forgetting the past, only serve to strengthen our points. It is of course understandable that your should so passionately call for forgetting and forgiving the past, because any reviewing of it is sure to highlight the glaring abuses you allowed, agreed with or did not stand up and speak against. Your own child decries your neglect. Your smug and dissmisive comments only serve to remind me from whence I escaped. You and your partners in crime fed a generation of children into the fires of your modern-day Moloch
for the sake of your lusts and your misguided religion. So keep posting Felicia, and try not to be surprised when these "kids" not only do not heed your cries for "forgiveness", but come to you to answer for your crime of indiference and perhaps worse.
Daniel(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From uncle
Saturday, August 24, 2002, 00:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
o.k. let me lay it out. You guys are involved in a very convaluted, twisted webb. You think you hate the "Family" but you have no idea about hate. You find some compassion because the abusers were Moms Dads "Carers" ect. On the other hand I hate the "family" not because I am or ever have been involved but because of rampant, organised, world wide child sexual, emotional and physical abuse. We here are starting a class action against the "family" for the above reasons. We need your help. If you are seriouse about moving on, not just talking about it, help us. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From JohnnieWalker
Saturday, August 31, 2002, 10:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
uncle, send me an e-mail at altruiste@hotmail.com. In it, state your real name, and concrete objectives and methods of what you are undertaking. If I consider it a worthwhile venture, I will, in turn, contact you about my support of it.
So far you have left me with the impression that you are nothing but a troll who needs to learn how to spell. If your email can prove otherwise, then my respect for you might be pushed up a few notches.(reply to this comment) |
| | From neez
Thursday, August 08, 2002, 04:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
Uncle Felicia: This is some funny shit u wrote..
Telling everyone to stand up against things they don't 'like' (does hate count?). They tried to take u'r kids passports!!? ooooooooh... you poor thing you!
Then in the same breath u tell us how we should forget everything & 'push forward'
Well, when the fam is finally standing on the edge of that inevitable cliff of justice(or old age, whichever comes 1st). Then I for one will be there 'pushing forward'..
p.s God can blow me..(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Erin
Wednesday, August 07, 2002, 15:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
Felicia,
The tone of your comment was generally kind. Thank you for that. However, referring to the individuals who post and visit this website as “kids” is offensive. A majority of individuals on this website are in their late twenties or early thirties with spouses and children of their own. They are exceptional individuals who have overcome great adversity and have achieved success in their personal and professional lives. They have careers, education and strive to achieve more. Most are model parents, who would never dream of exposing their own children to the horror their own parents brought into their lives or stood by idly while it was inflicted upon them. Before, comparing yourself to them, you should read more carefully.
Unlike you, no one here chose the Children of God for their lives. On the contrary, it was their parents, lost hippies without direction in their lives, who thrust it upon them. Their choices were stolen from them. Yet rather than accepting that mess of porridge, they suffered through adversity and dreamed and achieved more for themselves. That, my dear, is true accomplishment.
Maybe you should more carefully examine your own life to see how far you’ve actually “moved on.” How much have you accomplished in the last ten years? Are you living hand to mouth, off the donations of those with jobs, have you obtained any accredited education for yourself or your children, have you provided future security for your family and children, in case, the world, in fact, does not end this decade? Objecting to the confiscation of your children’s passports is commendable; however, have you more closely examined why you exposed your children to such an environment to begin with?
What people like you need to realize is that those six children you gave birth to are not yours. You do not own them, their labor or their bodies. Rather, you have only been given the privilege and great responsibility to provide and protect them until they can do so for themselves. When they are men and women, will they thank you for doing an excellent job of caring, loving, providing and protecting them? Or will they have years of education lacking, no potential to support themselves beyond begging and manual labor and need years of therapy to overcome the scars of physical, mental, emotional and sexual abuse? Think about it. Think hard on it, because before you know it those children will be MEN and WOMEN, not “kids” any longer.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Erin
Saturday, August 24, 2002, 11:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hope, sorry to hear what you endured as a child. It’s so much like my own sad story. I’m glad you were able to make a life for yourself. Your mother sounds much like my own, weak. My own mother allowed pretty much anyone to abuse us and often she did herself. She never displayed the motherly instincts even animals have. She was weak and moldable. She allowed abusive men to come into our lives because she was too afraid of being alone. She’s always needed a man in her life, anyone would do, morals not required. Unfortunately, the cult had a large selection to choose from.
Fortunately, people like us who’ve experienced such things can easily identify it and despise it. It’s heartening to learn what wonderful parents those of us who have children have become. Rather than continue the evil cycle of abuse in the cult, people like you have stopped it by being such wonderfully loving and caring parents. May the children of ex-SGAs never know the pain their parents experienced as children. Never! Thanks to people like you, it looks like many of them will not.
By the way, I would be careful of posers like uncle. Most of these individuals are frauds, a lot of them are just MGP or one of his cronies. Those who are really interested in telling their stories and becoming involved in efforts stop the cult should probably get in contact with people who are ex-SGAs themselves like Daniel and who do not hide their identity. However, you seem to have known a poser like uncle when you saw one.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Albatross
Wednesday, August 07, 2002, 11:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hi Felicia,
There seems to be a disconnect in your ability to follow the recurring theme on this site. I will lay things out for you with painful simplicity.
1. Your standing up to leadership in Italy, –while admirable- was sadly the exception to the usual family experience. If standing up had been more common, I believe these many posts and maybe even this site would be unnecessary.
2. Your believe that “The Family the doctrine and all is definetly (sic) the Lord's entime (sic) church and is doing more to save souls than anyone I know”. You will find precious few on this site who agree with you. In fact, I submit that you damage your credibility by so unreservedly endorsing the Family and its doctrines.
3. You admonish us to “go on with our lives.” Why do you assume that we have not? If anything we revel in our rapid movement in the diametrically opposite direction of logically challenged individuals such as yourself and your Family cohorts. However, I for one find nothing wrong in the revisiting, reexamining, discussing, and analyzing of our pasts. It’s an error on your part to assume that those activities define who we are, or where we are going in other areas of our lives.
4. And lastly, I don’t have a poll, but a casual sampling of many here seems to suggest that those who hold your religion and your god and your Jesus in high esteem are few. While I don’t begrudge them their right to choose whatever faith they will, I do think you damage your ability to make a logical argument, when you use “ the love Jesus has for us” as well as “ the Family’s efforts to save souls” as your underpinnings.
Felicia, You must understand that your original choice to join the cog, as well as you continual choices to remain therein, make your ability to make rational decisions both suspect and questionable.
Daniel
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Felicia
Wednesday, August 07, 2002, 10:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
I didn't go through alot of the things you guys did. I also didn't allow those thingt to go on or put my six kids through that sex stough. I think it was on the scale of each home as to how they took things. I did have some problems in Italy years ago with leadership trying to take my childrens passports. I left the country so that wouldn't happen. That leadership was relieved of their responsibilty by Dad. I think that people who didn't like things that were going on needed to tell leadership above the local situation and deal with it. As I did I felt so strongly that it wasn't right and I did something about it, I didn't just sit there and take it. The Family the doctrine and all is definetly the Lord's entime church and is doing more to save souls than anyone I know and that's the most important thing. You kids need to go on with your lives. Even people in the world have many problems that they go through, but you must keep pushing forward. I am FM and I love all you kids and if you need my help I would love to be of help if I can. Please never give up on Jesus He love you all so much and will never give up on you even if you make excuses not to talk to him because of what people have done to you. Love Felicia(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Jules
Friday, July 26, 2002, 14:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
JW,
I can't remember where the policy is on FGAs for the site. Could you let me know where that is, and I'll update it.
The current understanding is that they can interact if they wish, but they should keep their comments to the "generations" area, and be respectful of our space.
To Geek:
Regarding the invitation to Family representatives to communicate here, this would be a bit different than a former or current member FGA. As a representative for the Family, they would be speaking on the behalf of Karen Zerby, Steve Kelly and the other Family leadership. It would be a chance for them to answer questions that the the hundreds of young people raised in the movement who interact here have, and they are aware of their outstanding invitation. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Geek
Friday, July 26, 2002, 10:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
Here I thought you may have a sense of humor -- I'm afraid you missed the irony -- obviously many of you guys would consider me a geek, just like I consider some of you losers who seem to have forgotten the site's named "moving on".
BTW, I'm kind of hazy as to what this "debate" is supposed to be about. Whether or not the Family is "good"? Whether Dad had a hankering for sex with little girls (we all know he did, what's the point)? Whether or not certain policies are good or bad (Who decides what good and bad are)? Whether or not Family members have broken the law? Sure they have.....as I bet many of you have. I really would like to know what you're interested in debating.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Albatross
Friday, July 26, 2002, 11:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
Geek,
I believe in accountability. I think to suggest that those who share my interest in seeing “the Family” answer for what are without a doubt reckless beliefs and criminal behaviors are somehow “losers” because they have not ”moved on” is a bit simplistic on your part. What is “moving on” anyway? I believe it is possible to revisit and address the questions of one’s youth without jeopardizing the successful present and strong future one has built. Working for a successful today, and attempting to resolve a dubious past are not mutually exclusive. One’s future may in fact benefit from the effort. I think that if the little list of things you outlined when asking what I wish to debate the Family on does not make you want to have answers…nothing will. Since you expressed an interest in my questions for “the Family” I will refer you to my previous posting on the subject in the section on this site called “seeking justice.” If you have further questions, I’d be happy to clarify, when time permits.
Daniel
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Geek
Friday, July 26, 2002, 16:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
Let’s not get snobby now. (“I’d be happy to clarify, when time permits.”)
OK, I read thing you wrote about wanting justice. Jeez, did someone rape your sister or something? I’m afraid I’m still not clear on your questions, though. Zerby as good as admitted that all that stuff was true by saying they couldn’t answer or they’d be in “legal trouble”, so what’s there to want answers about? OK, in all honesty, there is one thing I’d like to know. I’d like to know how much Berg came up with because he wanted to justify his own desires and how much he heard from God. But I suspect that the majority of visitors to this site think he didn’t get anything from God. And the only person who can really answer this question would be God.
Look, let’s get something straight, I also hate the crap that went on, probably as much as you do. It’s a crying shame that Berg never faced up to it and it doesn’t look like Zerby or Peter will either. Do you really think the Family is dangerous in its current state, though? So maybe some women will get offended because their husband sleeps around. Maybe it’ll affect the kids badly as well. At least it’s not done in secret like it is at most levels of society. Are you afraid that one of these days Zerby and Peter will tell everyone to go have sex with kids again? Not likely. Family homes all have lots of “outside” friends these days and that should keep things from getting as weird as they did in the past. (reply to this comment) |
| | From afflick
Sunday, August 11, 2002, 11:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
In order to be brief, I will not delve into how TFs' disturbing doctrines on self pleasuring to the projection of Christ, the predestination of each child born into their membership or any other of the numerous harmful-to-children theories the group joyfully practices.
Intest I will focus on this aspect: In its current state, children do not get a stardard education, most of them violate child labor laws frequently, selling videos or peddling their new magasine on the street. Still a dangerous environment for children? You betcha.(reply to this comment) |
| | From afflick
Sunday, August 11, 2002, 11:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
In order to be brief, I will not delve into how TFs' disturbing doctrines on self pleasuring to the projection of Christ, the predestination of each child born into their membership or any other of the numerous harmful-to-children theories the group joyfully practices.
Intest I will focus on this aspect: In its current state, children do not get a stardard education, most of them violate child labor laws frequently, selling videos or peddling their new magasine on the street. Still a dangerous environment for children? You betcha.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Albatross
Friday, July 26, 2002, 16:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
Geek:
It's too bad you took my refering to my busy schedule as snobbery. You seem confused as to what my aim is. I have tried to be very direct and clear about it. Here is the deal. I am fairly sure that the Family has tried to clean up its act sexually and in many of the more abusive treatments of its children. That being the case...I don't much care that they may live out their lives as harmless bizare religious ecentrics. I don't care. I am seeking accountability for the PAST. Read THE PAST. I want answers for abuses of the PAST. You may not think that there is anything to be gained from resolving or seeking justice for the past. I do. That is what I am looking for. I think there remains an issue of accountability to be address. As for the questions I have for the Family: I will address them with a Family representative or a Family appologist with whom I can have a logical and interesting give and take debate.( id that is even possible) So far I have found it a waste of time to argue specifics with persons such as yourself who present a disjointed unclear argument. Where are you coming from? What do you want? Why do you care? And if you are going to attack my point..then fine...but make up your mind what you are going after. Is it the fact that I want answers about the past? If so, it would be smart to stop writing and arguing that I won't change the future, or that the future does not look too bad for them. I am not that worried about the future.
Daniel(reply to this comment) |
| | From Geek
Friday, July 26, 2002, 23:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
How am I supposed to present a clear argument if I don’t know what your “questions” are? If I understand correctly you’d like Zerby and Peter to admit to all the illegal and harmful things they’ve done. Since Zerby has already de-facto admitted to them, I guess you want a detailed confession. If that’s your argument, I agree with you, I think it would do the Family a lot of good to get past skeletons out of the closet and get a “clean” start. However, I think trying to have Zerby and Peter put in jail is going a bit to far. If you still believe in the afterlife you know they will face justice one of these days. Why not let them die in peace, there are plenty of other criminals to go after who actually pose a threat to society.
As for where I’m coming from and why I care, I still appreciate many things about the Family and that includes some of Berg’s writings. Many great men of history have had nasty closet secrets, but that doesn’t erase the good they’ve done. The Family’s particular brand of Christianity is still my favorite. They’ve experimented with many things that ended up being harmful, and they still haven’t given up on some nasty experiments, but IMO they practice a warm, vibrant form of Christianity, which contrasts starkly with the deadness I’ve seen elsewhere.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Albatross
Saturday, July 27, 2002, 20:40
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hello Geek,
I appreciate your response. You raised some interesting points. If I may, I’ll begin by addressing the question of Christianity and whether or not the Family’s “special brand” of Christianity works to mitigate the untoward aspects of their history. I should begin by clarifying that I am not a religious person. I acknowledge that religions often serve to provide a moral code to control the baser instincts of humanity. It is when these baser instincts are worked into the dogma of a religion, that I believe the religion begins to do more harm than good.
So on to the Family: You concede in your response that the family “experimented with many things that ended up being harmful.” You further say, “They still haven’t given up some nasty experiments.” However you go on to imply that the “warm and vibrant form of Christianity” may absolve them of some of the darker aspects of years past. I think you would agree with me that encouraging, advocating, allowing, ignoring, and participating in the exploitation of children, (especially when sexual in nature) are unspeakable violations of society’s (and for the Christians: God’s Laws). Here is where I believe we diverge: I believe that no mater what good deeds you’ve done, no mater how “vibrant and warm your religion” no matter how many people you claim to have helped, if you have been party to the abuse and exploitation of children, you MUST be held accountable. You question why I don’t just “let them die in peace? There are plenty of other criminals to go after who actually pose a threat to society.” Firstly…like I said in a previous post, I am not personally interested in going after criminals who may pose a future threat to society. I am interested in taking the abusers and their apologist and protectors to task for abuses of the PAST. Has Zerby already “de-facto admitted to the illegal and harmful activities”? Is so… (And I’ve yet to be convinced she has) she must be held accountable. Is it simply enough to admit to past abuses? I think not. Where would we be if every criminal who managed to escape detection for 5, 10,15 years, was simply allowed to walk, with an acknowledgement of guilt after having been apprehended? I should point out that I think it is unrealistic to expect that any effort will result in the imprisonment of Zerby or Kelly. While I think they deserve it, it is not the focus of my efforts. But why would it be going too far? If we are to believe the published writings of the Family, we have ample indication (if only anecdotal) that Zerby and Kelly not only encouraged child sexual abuse, but where involved in the arranging of it. There are very strict laws for conspiring and participating in the sexual abuse of a child. You say, “ many great men in history have nasty closet secrets, but that doesn’t erase the good they’ve done.”
Agreed; but the good they’ve done should never be allowed to erase the evil they’ve done…especially where the health, life and innocence of a child is involved.
Again…on the questions I have for the family: I will hopefully get a chance to ask them. I do not think that debating an ex-member (are you an ex-member?) on questions specifically geared towards Family leadership or their representatives, is a good use of my time. We seem to already agree that the family had and has some very bizarre and experimental beliefs. Hopefully we will have the opportunity to ask them about it. If that time comes…I am sure the Family would welcome your chiming in and supporting their positions. But I’m disinclined to lay out all my questions for you at this time, and then repeat them all at a later date. I hope you understand.
To conclude: The fact that a few Christians around the world find the Family a better approach to the teachings of Christ, or perhaps the fact that they find it a more “warm and vibrant” form of Christianity, will never excuse the evil perpetrated on children in years past. It will not work to try to fix the balance sheet this way. We are taking about two different currencies. The innocence of little children cannot be bought with the “salvation of a lost soul” or the songs and praises of a charismatic religion.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Geek
Sunday, July 28, 2002, 13:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
In my final posting, allow me to quote Victor Hugo: “So long as there shall exist, by virtue of law and custom, decrees of damnation pronounced by society, artificially creating hells amid the civilization of earth, and adding the element of human fate to divine destiny…. books of the nature of Les Miserables cannot fail to be of use.”
While I agree that the good deeds Berg, Zerby and Kelly did don’t cancel out their crimes, I would support a justice system which takes into account not just the circumstances of a crime, but its recency and the likelihood of the defendant perpetrating another crime. I see no point in dredging up past crimes if the circumstances have changed; since finite man is only able to comprehend a small portion of any given event, I believe only God can mete out true justice, and he will.
I lack interest in “answers” because I believe the Family’s past is fairly straightforward: The more Berg was revered the more confident he became that he was supremely right. He began to re-interpret scripture in order to justify the enactment of his personal desires. Zerby’s love for him and Kelly’s love for her blinds them to the obvious.
On a different subject, I see religion not as a “moral code” but a means to connect with a higher power, and develop one’s spiritual potential. Spirituality is most commonly judged by feelings and emotions, not logic. And my feelings tell me than despite a pockmarked past and shaky present, the Family is the group for me.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Albatross
Monday, July 29, 2002, 12:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
Geek,
I think I understand what your stated position is. Essentially that, questions of justice should be left in the “hands of god”. I’ve concluded from your postings that you feel that the Family leadership should be cut some slack because of the good they are to have done.
I’m sorry Geek; I could not disagree with you more on this. I truly believe that this is a case of “there are none so blind as those who will not see.”
Who would choose the rights of abusive cult leaders over the rights of the abused youths?
I don’t understand. It’s so simple to me. I think that a true and honest believer in the teachings of Christ would find any other stance totally unacceptable. It is almost as if the original ideals of Christianity have been lost in all of this. When is it ever right or excusable to allow or cause a child to suffer? You’ve agreed that it is not. So why must we let those who have “ offended these little ones” get away scott-free? Jesus himself recommended a more brutal and final form of punishment than anything I have suggested. Geek, the idea of punishing those who commit crimes is not just to make up for the past, but also to try to dissuade others from committing future ones.
Do you understand how people can turn so strongly against the concept of god, jesus, and Christianity, when those who claim to be the ambassadors of god on earth treat the most innocent and fragile of all, with callused indifference or worse, outright abusively?
I defy you or anyone to tell me that the peace and safety of an abusive religious leader should come before the rights of an abused child, not mater how “right on” you may consider that leader’s teachings. When I look at a child -any child-, young, innocent, wide-eyed, trusting, believing and fragile, I cannot for the life of me think of any circumstance under which I would use that child for my sexual pleasure. I cannot for the life of me understand anyone who would. I cannot for the life of me understand anyone who would even suggested it. I cannot for the life of me understand anyone who would defend it.
It is very simple to me. I remember even as a five-year-old, being very aware of everything that was happening around me. I remember as a child the first innocent kiss I had. I could never bring myself to crush the innocence and curiosity of youth for a few minutes of adult lust. How is it that so many were able to do so, and then continue on their way preaching love, god, and happiness, as if nothing had ever happened?
I don’t understand.
Daniel
(reply to this comment) |
| | From relieved
Tuesday, July 30, 2002, 17:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
Daniel, there's so much I could say, but I must say at least this: thank you for taking the time and expending such energy on this. Somebody is saying it finally!! Reading your analyses does me so much good as an ex-SGA (yes, I am someone's sister and was raped in the cult), that I don't care if Geek never gets it or never reads enough good books to stop thinking Berg was so great.(reply to this comment) |
| | From C
Monday, July 29, 2002, 14:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
Daniel, this is truly poignant. You put it so simply, so honestly. It is the sad truth! Our world is a dangerous place.
I was in the store with my son this weekend when an elderly couple came up to us and spoke to him in his stroller. “How cute,” they said. “How adorable he is,” they added. Then the lady said to me, “Hold him close, dear. There are evil people out there hurting children.” It is the tragic truth. There are many, especially recently. But what is even more tragic is that the children we speak of here on this website were hurt at the hands of their own parents or with their parent’s approval. And it was done so in the name of God and love. How sick and perverse!
Any one who claims to be Christian and defends such acts, who defends the perpetrators, who attacks the victims and admonishes them to “move on” or “forgive,” is a liar and no Christian at all. It is an ill and indifferent mind which can attempt to justify the crushing of a child’s soul, the rape of a child’s innocense.
I take solace in hearing stories of our children, those of us ex-SGA’s who are parents. I am comforted and made happy to hear how are children are truly loved, protected, cared for. I smile when someone tells me my son is dressed nicely. “Only the best for him,” I say. I find pleasure in buying him new toys and clothes, the best food, taking him places and spending quality time with him.
Most of all, it is healing to me to know that he will never know the pain of our childhoods. He will never be beaten with a paddle, he will never be slapped or bruised or scarred, he will never be raped or molested, he will never be publically humiliated, he will never be locked in isolation, he will never be screamed at, he will never be made not to speak and wear a sign around his neck or tape over his mouth, he will never be used for the sick pleasure of a criminal, he will never be touched by a hand that does not love him. Rather, he will always have more than enough to eat, a story at bedtime, a real children’s story, rather than some perverse cult’s doctrine, shoes and clothes which are new and fit, a safe and loving home, with his own room where he can go to find privacy and solace, the best education his mother can provide, the best medical attention available, rather than snake oil and fake “prayers,” and most of all he will always have the arms of a mother which will care for and protect him and love him to her last dying breath.
Knowing there are so many others out there, just like me, who adore their children, is so comforting. Rather than continue the cycle of abuse, so many of us have chosen better lives for our children. We struggle with our own pain, with that of our siblings. We struggle with the lack of education and experience of which the cult robbed us. We struggle with our finances and careers. However, despite it all, I’ve heard only wonderful stories of how we love and provide for our own children. I commend all those on this website who are such fine parents, having never even known such love from their own parents, having been so shamefully abused themselves. I also commend all those who struggle on their own to make better lives and do so while supporting their younger siblings. The example set by these incredible people is the ultimate exposure of the criminal acts of our parents. The “Family” only suffers by comparison to the true loving families we’ve made for ourselves!(reply to this comment) |
| | From cm
Sunday, July 28, 2002, 17:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
Geek--In my first post to you, allow me to quote George Bernard Shaw: "It is dangerous to be sincere, unless you are also stupid." My friend, while I find your sincerity refreshing, I am of the opinion that you are also innocuous. "..artificially creating hells amid the civilization...", truly ingenuous.
I too "support a justice system which takes into account not just the circumstances of a crime, but its recency and the likelihood of the defendant perpetrating another crime." May I recommend the American justice system? You can be the one to ask the jury/judge for leniency at the sentencing trial. They may decide that that Zerby has won enough "souls" to Christ to only merit a 20 year sentence.
On a different subject, do you not question the cogency of a connection to the "higher power" that condones and participates in the sexual, physical and emotional abuse of young children and recieves blatantly erroneous prophecies? If this is "spiritual potential," I will settle for spiritual quiescence.
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| | From neez
Monday, July 29, 2002, 04:57
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yes geek.. please, please stay under whichever rock you currently call your home.
The last thing the world needs is more people like you..
I finally now realise why all these nice Uncles n Aunties didn't fucking do anything during the 30 years of rape/paedophilia/incest/& shitmovies.
You've just watched a murder take place.. & before the limp body has hit the pavement.. you're saying to yourself;
"Ah well, it's in the past, life moves on, plenty of other murders where that came from".
Or perhaps you sit there with a stopwatch timing how long it takes for the murderer to be caught & charged. So you can run up & enlighten the police that the murder occured over 24hrs(figuratively) ago, therefore Zerb..uh..the muderer should be let off with a pow-wow & a couple OHR's.
& could you possibly enlighten us all as to how calling yourself 'geek' could possibly be even slightly humorous..!!??
actually don't bother..(reply to this comment) |
| | From Wolf
Monday, July 29, 2002, 23:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wolf:
You guys seem to be comparing Zerb and Kelly to murderers and child molesters. What are they in fact guilty of?
1. Accessory to child molestation and possibly rape
2. Agreeing with ideas which led to child molestation and rape
3. Perjury and denial of the truth
Ugly crimes, to be sure. However, as far as I know, they did not actually participate in child molestation or rape, or even disseminate the infamous ideas themselves, which I think makes the given comparisons unfair. Please correct me if one of you has serious reason to believe they did physically participate in these crimes.
They are guilty of condoning Berg’s crimes and his perversions and thereby allowing perversions to proliferate in the Children of God / Family. They should have the guts to admit this. They should not, however, be taken to task for Berg’s crimes to any degree greater than their own involvement in them.
It is easy to understand the abused desiring to witness the punishment of the abusers. However, I believe the person ultimately responsible for the abuse in this case is already dead. I suggest we not pin equal blame on those guilty of lesser crimes.
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| | | | | | | | From JOEBLO
Tuesday, July 30, 2002, 11:11
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Wolf wrote he didn't know if Zerby or Kelly physically abused with there own bodies. They did sexually and physicaly. In the Mene story which they published, Berg asks if Kelly ever spanked her, and she said yes. To which Berg replied he hoped it was very hard. My Dad has spoken with someone who was in the home at the time, who says Kelly was involved with her sexually, as well as that being her own testimony. The proof is that Kelly will not deny it. If I (or anyone I can imagine)was falsely accussed of this I would certainly deny it. I don't know about Zerby physicaly being involved but it is well documented that she wrote many times as how great it was (all in James Penns letter) and personally published that Mene series with a forward showing not only her consent, but her desire that this be the way things should be handled. So the answer is pretty much a slam dunk that at least Kelly and for all intents and purposes Zerby was directly and physically involved with the abuse. Physical and sexual.
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| | | | | | | | From Albatross
Monday, July 29, 2002, 23:36
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Hi Wolf:
I posted the following:"If we are to believe the published writings of the Family, we have ample indication (if only anecdotal) that Zerby and Kelly not only encouraged child sexual abuse, but where involved in the arranging of it." See the (Mene Letters)
You provided a list, here it is:
1. Accessory to child molestation and possibly rape
2. Agreeing with ideas which led to child molestation and rape
3. Perjury and denial of the truth
That is partially the list I had in mind as well. I don't know about Kelly and Zerby participating the actual acts of abuse....I leave that to those who were there. However...the crimes on that list are enough for me....especially when their impact was felt by children the world over. I have never suggested we should go after Zerby and Kelly for the specific acts of child sexual abuse commited by Berg...It would however not be beyond the pale to go after them for having direct knowledge of the crimes and either encouraging it...or allowing the child to remain in the harmful grasp of Berg.
I am not comparing Zerby and Kelly to Child molesters...I am calling them child molesters.....The number one thing on your list of three, falls under the heading of Child sexual molestation in my book.
Wolf...If you read my postings you will see that I am calling for accountabilty for the abuses that occured as a result of not only Berg's example...but also of his writings advocating the abuse of children. Zerby and Kelly have been leaders for a very long time....They also share a very large burden for allowing what they allowed. Should we call them murderers and child rapists?
No. But their acts were evil enough in their own right to prevent me from tempering my condemnation of them.
So agreed.....we do not need to go after them for the specific acts of child sexual abuse commited by Berg. There is a enough other guilt to last them several lifetimes.
Daniel
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| | From Jules
Sunday, July 28, 2002, 16:53
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I think you are right Geek, if you are not interested in logic or analytical thought, and you are willing to endorse criminals as long as they make you feel spiritualy elite, then the Family totally sounds like the place for you.
Just don't cry foul if, when the day of reckoning finally comes, the people you are choosing to align your life with take you down with them. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | from Rock
Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 03:41
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Dear Alb/Daniel:
As much as I would love to see a debate with the family I doubt it will ever happen. All of their public relations posturing is selective and based on attacking the messenger. In the realm of philosophy, which includes reasoned debate and critical thinking, they only have the abilty to attack the person because their position is so weak.
In a debate based on fact and principle they would have to openly confess their true beliefs. If they did that the weight of your position would crush any argument they could offer to support themselves.
I believe they know this in their hearts but will not acknowledge it. Another sad reality is that each spokesperson is one of a long line of individuals who will be discarded once they have burned out or served their purpose.
All that being said, I truly appreciate and admire your work in holding them to accountability. I think that your efforts are of great value and benifits all of us as ex members.
Sincerely
Rocky
(reply to this comment)
| From Albatross
Wednesday, July 24, 2002, 12:39
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Rocky,
Thanks for your comment. Anyone reading this post of mine could be forgiven for assuming I am an optimist.
The truth is that when it comes to "The Family" and extracting apologies,concessions,acknowledgments, and straight-forward official responses, I think I may be as cynical as the next person. But I just like to have it in Black and White. There are I'm sure many reasons why they would not respond, not the least of which may be that they feel no obligation to respond to every former SGA member who calls them out. But I feel an obligation
(with a thanks to Rudyard Kipling for the following quote)to "concede some form of trial even to my fiercest foe".
Down the line, at least I won't be open to the charge of having never asked for answers or of having never given them the chance to respond. So I ask for a debate, regardless of whether I believe I'll hear back. I am always willing to be surprised.
Daniel(reply to this comment) |
| | from sar
Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 18:56
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lmfao
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| from MeccaM74
Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 11:41
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I just read your letter Alb, I haven't been on this site for a while but count me in as well.
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| from dave
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 - 16:52
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A debate is a great idea. I think it's time for "The Family" and their “media team” to quit cowering around the issues and "give an answer to he that asketh" concerning the countless abuses and crimes committed against their children. When is Zerby going to get out of the dark, ("..and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of DARKNESS..") admit and apologize for evil that was perpetrated? At least an official and public apology to her two children 'Davidito' and 'Techi' for the sexual and mental abuse they suffered would be a start in the right direction. Hey, though there’s no comparison: even the IRA has apologized for their crimes and 'past mistakes'. It's not the best example and it doesn't undo the damage of what's been done, but at least they're trying to establish and maintain a dialogue instead of excuses, reasons justifications and denial, denial, denial.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/07/16/ira.htm
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| from Albatross
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 - 16:14
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Thanks Craven, Tim, and JW. I'll update all if I hear back. Let's hope we get the chance to put the considerable debating skills of each of you to good use.
Daniel
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| from JohnnieWalker
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 - 16:04
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If/when such a debate takes place, I'm game.
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| from Tim
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 - 14:49
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Excellent idea, it would be interesting to hear what they have to say in a uncensored forum. The Family is used to presenting their idea's in a controlled enviroment, no dissenters or opposing opinions.
I don't know about the rest of you, but this pig would love to trample some pearls. :-)
(I'll bet that's the exact verse they will use to justify declining)
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| from Craven
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 - 12:36
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In the unlikely event that the Family takes up your offer in good faith and is willing to answer some uncomfortable questions I'd love to participate.
They should note that they will only have so many chances at an amiable debate.
If dialogue is not voluntary it certainly won't lack hostility.
Counte me in in any case.
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