Moving On - Children of the Children of God

Did you stumble on this site and feel like you cant make sense of some stuff? Dont worry, I suspect many of us feel the same way with the new lives we are trying to build outside the group called The Family that we were born into. Just wanted to give a little background if it helps.

I have noticed that we have had increasing numbers of people stumble onto this site and try to make sense of what we say to each other, often without success as is evidenced by some of the comments left. I tried to make a little explanation, just a start, for people who stumble into the site and are trying to make sense of things. Obviously this doesnt explain everything, and probably does a bad job explaining some stuff, so feel free to add comments as necesary.

To understand where we, those who were born while our parents were members of The Family", are coming from, it is necesary to know how our parents got involved. I just watched the movie "Guinevere", her experience with her mentor reminded me of how our parents got involved in The Family. Almost without exception, they were insecure at the time they joined the group, they didn't fit in with others, or they were having emotional problems, had problems with depression, etc, then they met someone who believed in them, and introduced them to a whole group of people who appeared to genuinely care about them. That was all that was needed at that point for our parents to give everything they had to the group, to modify their identity in every way to conform to the profile of a Family Member, and to eventually get so dependent on the group, as a result of them intentionally isolating themselves from society as much as they could, that they were scared to leave.

While living in The Family, they learned that the reason they could all love each other and be who they were was because of the writings of the founder of The Family, David Berg, who members called "Dad" (Capital 'D'). They were most often introduced to Berg's writings by people who had not personally met Berg, but who were passing on what they had heard and what they believed Berg to be like; thus the legend was born and like legend, it was passed down through word of mouth until everybody knew of the legendary Berg, through his writings, illustrated comic books with Berg as protagonist, and oft-told stories of experiences with the legend. He was the closest living being to God for a whole group of people, most of whom had never met the man or even seen a photograph of him. Although Berg claimed he was only human and not God (an interesting piece of reverse-psychology), to the majority he was virtually God-incarnate, the last and greatest voice of God since Berg had given them a reason to live where their last memory outside the group was as an aimless 19-year-old who didnt know what he/she was supposed to do with his/her life. The priviledge of being chosen to live with Berg, or even visit him, was the greatest desire of most everyone in The Family, consequently, when someone was priviledged enough to meet "the legend", the chance that they could fulfil Berg's wishes to show their admiration and undying loyalty (which Berg had stipulated that God expected of all his people) was the greatest priviledge they could hope for. Thus when Berg wanted sex from them, it was given with gratitude, if Berg wanted them to be videotaped dancing nude so he could send it to his other members, they counted themselves priviledged. And when Berg was attracted to their teenage daughters, they felt honored to give their daughters to him for his sexual pleasure; that he was old enough to be their grandfather was never an issue.
This is what we were born into, it was all most of us saw, we did not choose, The Family intentionally isolated most of its members from that outside world as much as possible, as the danger of "turning your back on the Lord" was an ever-present fear of Berg's. For those of us born in the group, most of us lived in an artificially-created environment. Things that most would take for granted as teenagers were foreign to many of us. As kids and teenagers, our contact with the outside world was primarily through proselytization efforts such as selling tapes produced by the group and pamphlets of Berg's writings door-to-door, or going out singing every day. We did stuff such as go to the zoo like other kids, but a majority of us were not allowed to hang out with kids our age if they were not in The Family, unless we were trying to recruit them, where of course there would be an adult present. In my personal case, I was 19 when I first rode a public bus alone. Partying with non-members without a supervisor present did not take place until around the same time, after I had left the group. I will have to add though, that the area of The Family I grew up in (South East Asia) was generally more restrictive that other areas. Although many of us had considered leaving many times prior to actually doing it, for many of us, our only ideas of the outside world were through a publication produced by the group called "Traumatic Testimonies" in which stories of individuals who had been in juvenille prison, gangs, dealing illegal drugs, prostitution, etc, were passed off as the typical story of the lives of people outside the group; this, coupled with the fear of an unknown world, kept us in. In addition, many of us would not consider alternatives as by the time we were able to consider alternative lifestyles, our phsyche had been ingrained with the concept that God would severely judge us for leaving, which for us was equated with turning our back on God.

I have been told by well-meaning people who I had told about my life, "Well I'm glad you saw the problem and got out", "Well, I dont think you're strange, like you'd perform human sacrifice or anything like that", as if we approached The Family like a business merger and backed away from the deal when we didn't find it agreeable. We did not choose to be in, we were born in, we did not do "strange cult stuff", if anything the "strange stuff" was done to us. The Family successfully raised a generation of people to be totally dependent on its structure and to be almost completely ignorant of life on the outside. As a side-note, I should mention that I am not trying to find an excuse for doing poorly; at the age of 22, I am doing quite well now education/financial-wise. Yet I am definietely one of the lucky ones, many others aren't so and they do have legitimate issues. I have seen well-meaning visitors to this site who have said, "you think you're so different, others have suffered more". I dont doubt that others have suffered more than many of us, a major difference could well be that many victims of abuse don't consider their abusers to be their hero, they may have a fantasy storybook hero who will "come and make Daddy stop beating/sexually abusing me". While I suspect that almost everybody has some "hero", subconscious "escape", or an idea of some individual who would make everything right, many of us here are newly discovering that our "hero who would come to save us" from situations described on this site, in fact encouraged, perpetrated, and in some cases ordered, the abuse that some of us suffered. We are finding out that those who we revered, respected, pledged our undying loyalty to, and believed were the closest manifestation of God there is, were quite despicable in alot of ways.

Many of the complaints you read on this board would seem like people whining and not letting things go. I would hope that everyone here does want to put things behind them, however much of the subject matter is written by people who have been admired and looked up to in the group for promoting the group's policies and defending the group to outsiders and observers, whatever the cost, (even if it meant lying about certain things, The Family uses a verse in the Bible where Paul speaks "as decievers yet true" to claim that one can be morally justified to lie to outsiders if it would be more comfortable to lie that own up to something). They gave everything they had, physically and emotionally, to the group because they felt they were doing the right thing, now they see it for what it is and may feel like their whole life was a lie, they are trying to figure out all over again what they believe, and they want closure. Now they look back at all they believed in and had lived for as a lie, and they are trying to sort it out, most people's comments are addressed to other former members who were born in The Family, and so alot of background is missing for the casual observer. Although we have witnessed some quite macabre incidents, we are not strange or dangerous, although in all honesty some of us could be considered "different". We are ordinary people who are trying to adjust, find our new heroes, our definition of someone who commands respect, and build a life outside the group that has up till now dictated virtually everything about us. I'd like to believe that everyone has a "hero", whether a person in their family or a pioneer in their area of expertise or interest. Many here are just finding out that they have no person to strive to be like anymore, please dont pity or patronise, please listen to us and ask questions before reaching conclusions solely from individual postings. If you do not understand a reference or expression, many people here would be happy to explain it.

Reader's comments on this article
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from harley
Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 19:33
(Agree/Disagree?)

I read a lot of your comment and I do admire you. You seem to take offense that people say they are glad you saw the problem and got out. Don't take offense to that type of comment please. For plain ordinary people it is difficult to realise that there are people such as the group you were inadvertantly attached to by birth. Sometimes you want to say that you are happy that this person is out and that you have the opportunity to get to know them, but you just can't imagine that they went through so much. Therefore you end up saying "something" hoping that person will realise that they are happy for them. It is the sort of thing a lot of people feel when they have a friend who has lost a child and your children are still healthy, they feel good, they feel bad and are afraid that everything they say will be misunderstood and they end up avoiding the person. In a response to a lot of people stumbling across this website. I had watched Indiana Jones and simply got curious about River Phoenix, I knew he died young and I looked him up on wikipedia, then I read about his invilvement with the cult, so I followed the link to the cult and went on and on from there thill I ended up here. I am glad for all of you and the courage that you must have, with having a distorted image of the "outside" world and never knowing anything different it must have taken an enourmous amount of courage to walk into it. I live in the same place I have lived all my life and the idea of even moving terrifies me. And to make that move alone and with little or no family, I cannot imagine. I am honored to get to say this. May you each find what the world has best to give you. Thank You.....
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from luvtoknow
Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 13:42
(Agree/Disagree?)

The relationship is fairly new. I just want to make sure that I understand things before I drop all of my sheilds. The advice and coments that I have recieve have all made me feel more confident in how I feel about her. Some things you hear are shocking at first ... but given time ... you can look at them more objectively, and with more understanding.

I just think that my fears of her cheating stem from all of the sexualization I've heard about. With all that sex that you were exposed to at a young age ... I can't help but think that you view sex differently than I do. The funny thing, before we even hooked up ... I remember having a conversation with her ... and she said that she couldn't understand how guys can fool around ... with two women at the same time. That was a major draw for me.

Now I find out that her upbringing promoted partner sharing, orgies, etc. But she escaped that. Could she still have any of the urges or disire to sleep with multiple partners? Especially considering, she seems to have a healthy appitite for sex between the two of us. Everything feels so good in the here and now. I just want to know if there will be any surprises down the line. Like if she tells me that she can only sleep with one person at a time. Should I take that as the honest to goodness truth? Or is she just being polite because she knows I am into being with one person ... meanwhile she just enjoys our physical connection?

Try this ... tell me what your relationship lives have been like since you fled. I wanna know if you saw many people at the same time, if you were in any long term relationships that you stayed faithful to your partner the whole (or part) time.
(reply to this comment)

From
Wednesday, October 13, 2004, 23:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think that you're being paranoid. She's an individual, and if she is telling you that fidelity in a relationship is something she is committed to, you should take her word for it. If you have such extensive trust issues, perhaps you shouldn't be dating. I know they are hard to get over, but they are your problems, and not hers. You seem to have the issue. Is your major concern with her being in the family only related to her cheating on you? I think it would be more caring of you to be concerned with her past because you want to help her through any issues she has that still hurt her if you can. Being only so concerned with her cheating on you, I think, would be hurtful to me if I was her. Her healthy appetite for sex should just make you happy she's attracted to you. I don't understand how men can be so pleased with a women enjoying sex with them in bed but then hold it against them as if it means she's out to do anyone she can get a hold of. If you can stop worrying about her upbringing making her someone likely to cheat, and you still want to know about her past, I suggest patience. If she doesn't seem to want to talk about when you bring it up to her, then don't press it. It'll be much better for her to talk about her past with you if she's ready. If she is really uncomfortable about letting you know every thing, you might create problems in the relationship. People resent being pressured. Just let her know you will be there to listen if she does want to discuss it. Then, if she wants to tell you, she'll tell you, but let her do it on her own time and in her own way. If she never does, you have to accept that. It is her story and it should be her story alone to tell. This isn't just advice on "how to deal with dating an ex-fam member," it is advice for anyone who wants to know about their significant others past even if it might be painful for their partner. Oh, and whatever you do, don't comfront her about her time in the family by asking her if it has made her incapable of fidelity. (reply to this comment)

From luvtoknow
Thursday, October 14, 2004, 15:00
(Agree/Disagree?)

All I can say is thanks! You guys helped me get thru a confusing week. Yes ... I have my own issue (on faithfulness) ... and despite that ... I am allready feeling more comfortable. Is it because some of you are calling me "Paranoid?" No!

It's because I have come across a situation that I have had no practice for ... and I just needed to talk it out. And for that I thank you.

I have the utmost respect for my girlfriend ... and there is no way I would want to hurt her. And I guess it has been kinda selfish of me to insure that she wouldn't hurt me in the way I most fear (my Paranoia of being cheated on). That was the only reason I wanted to know. Cause with every day I am growing to like her more and more. (Don't Gag) But you know what ... she is worth the chance!(reply to this comment)

From moon beam
Friday, October 15, 2004, 02:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
Nice one! Good luck to you both.(reply to this comment)

From Hydra
Friday, October 08, 2004, 07:16
(Agree/Disagree?)

Not to be rude, but frankly, I find some of your questions, and particularly the desperation behind them to be extremely annoying and frustrating.

I'm sure that your intent is perfectly innocent and you are only trying to gain reassurance so that you do not wind up hurt or betrayed.

Regardless of what your intentions may be, I think you need to stop freaking out about what your girlfriend may or may not do based on a childhood she had no control over. Do you give all of your girlfriends the same kind of background checks? Because personally, if it was me, and I read the above questions, I'd be pretty upset.

I would not appreciate in any way having my future actions presupposed because of what someone else who had a similar background to mine thought about a particular topic. That is completely unfair.

Your girlfriend is an individual. And regardless of what her background might have been or what she may have gone through, she has her own unique thoughts and feelings on the matters you are asking about. The only way you are going to be able to find out what she thinks and feels is to talk to her. Drawing conclusions as to her future actions based on what any one of us might say or what our own experiences and preferences in relationships might be is just not right.

I won't speak for humanity, but I know that I myself want to be accepted for who I am and who I have become, not have my actions prejudged because of some past I had no control over or worse still, because of somebody else's reaction to their own past.

Now that you've gotten the answer that we are all different and what we want and expect out of love, sex, marriage and relationships is as varried as we are ourselves, let it go.

It seems to me from what you've written that your girlfriend is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. If the fact that she is warm and open and has a good sexual relationship with you freaks you out and makes you wonder if she's promiscious, what on earth she could possibly do to please you and reassure you. Would you prefer she were the opposite?

If, from this point on, you're always looking her over with the evil eye, wondering when she's going to revert to that image you've already got in your head and show her "true colors", then your relationship is already doomed through your own doing.

In case it is not already clear: Yes, most of us grew up in an overly sexualized environment, and yes, many of us were sexually molested and many of us became sexualized at an early age. But not all of us. And of those of us that did/were, we did not all have identical experiences and we did not all have the same reaction to the experiences that we did have. We are individuals with preferences and ideals as varied as we are people.

And as much as I have no problem telling you what kind of relationships I have prefered since leaving the group, I have no desire to help you stereotype or pidgeon-hole your girlfriend. We had too much of that growing up. Respect your girlfriend for who she is and use the same criteria you would use for any other partner choice that you would make.(reply to this comment)

From Aita
Friday, October 08, 2004, 05:22
(Agree/Disagree?)

A lot of us are even more repulsed by the idea of multiple partners, cheating, etc. than other "normal" people. I know I am. I think we saw first hand how wrong it was, how screwed up. We saw people get hurt by it all the time......I remember finding my mom crying a lot in certain homes, where I also knew my dad was fooling around, and it's something I would never let myself go through or put someone else through.

We know what it's like, we know the results, we've been there, and never want to go back to it.

Sao don't be so harsh on your girlfriend, if she saw half the things I saw she probably thinks the same way I do.

Take care(reply to this comment)

From Vicky
Friday, October 08, 2004, 06:27
(Agree/Disagree?)

I think this is far too complex a subject for there to be any real consensus within such a large and diverse demographic. It seems a silly discussion because even within the two opposing extremes there will be a wide range of nuances in experience and psychological make-up that would make each person's opinion wholly individual. The fact is that most people talk confidently about what they would or would not do when it comes to these issues but one really doesn't know until one is in a situation where it becomes relevant to one's life.

Luvtoknow, I am sure that much of what you have read here will have been a reliable indication of what values you might expect your girlfriend to hold. But, like someone already mentioned, the truth is that no one but her can give you any real insight. Don't forget that she herself might not know for certain where she stands on every one of these issues; especially if she left TF within the last few years, as she will still be forming her own identity.

These things are not always as cut-and-dry as we would like to think, and you may have to take the risk of pursuing a more intimate relationship without knowing just how things will go. There are, after all, no guarantees when it comes to that thing called Love.

As for my own views on sex within long-term relationships:

I am against 'cheating', - It is disrespectful, deceitful and hurtful. I see a one-night stand as a very different issue to a long-term affair, however.

I am not opposed to the notion of open marriages and other similar arrangements - As long as both people are suited to such a lifestyle choice and have equal say in how it is done.

I am repulsed by very few things when it comes to sex (certain bizarre fringe practices aside), however just because I see nothing intrinsically wrong with a given sexual behaviour does not mean that I would actively participate in it.(reply to this comment)

From moon beam
Friday, October 08, 2004, 07:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
Completely agree vicki.
Luv2know, we are not what the cookie cutter wanted us to be, TF tried and failed, so we are all unique as we have a right and choice to be!!
I've made many mistakes and hope that i have learned from them. Though, I have found it difficult to trust and be emotionaly honest/close, due to abuse of my self, body and boundaries. These can be overcome.
If you have understanding and compassion in your heart, I am sure she'll find in you a man worthy of her time, effort and love, for which you will only gain, not loose. (reply to this comment)

From
Friday, October 08, 2004, 01:58
(Agree/Disagree?)

With reactions like this its no wonder we try and keep our pasts out of the picture. Just because she may have been sexually active, or had sex at an early age dusnt automatically mean she will be unfaithful. Get a grip man... ur sounding paranoid.

(reply to this comment)
from luvtoknow
Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 23:55
(Agree/Disagree?)

I can't tell you guys how much it helps to hear what you have to say. By your answers ... I have a better understanding of something that I'm just not ready to get into deeply with her. But what I do know ... is that I am becoming more comfortable. I would like to be totally prepared for what she may share with me in the future ... and not judge her for it in any way.

I care about her a lot ... and she has opened up enough to tell me that she was in the family. If you don't mind, I'll keep asking questions to have a fuller grasp on how she might feel.

One thing I'd like to know, is where (which country) you grew up with the family? Another thing, since leaving, what about you has changed? Even more importantly, what do you think you will keep from the experience? I know that none of you are the same as her. But indulge me, I'd just like to see how each of you feel.

What are you looking for in the future? A family? How many kids? Do you want to stay in one place? or do you need to travel?

Here is a tough one. What are your feelings toward sex? How much do you like it? How important is it in your life? Are you more interested in the physical or the emotional aspects of it? Anything else you feel would be helpful on this topic would be appreciated.

You guys are the best! I can't tell you how much better I feel than 24 hours ago.

(reply to this comment)

From
Thursday, October 07, 2004, 12:20
(Agree/Disagree?)

I'm just curious if you've been together long and what the status of your relationship is. Seems to me like if you are hesitant to ask about what's on your mind then you two haven't been together very long. It also seems like you are asking these questions because you are worried about her cheating on you or are afraid she is not looking for the same things you are. If this is the case then you should really open up to her about this. If she trusted you enough to tell you about her past in the first place, she shouldn't have a problem answering your questions.(reply to this comment)

From Haunted
Thursday, October 07, 2004, 05:03
(Agree/Disagree?)

As far as how people feel about sex, I suggest reading the section of the site dedicated to this very thing. It's Getting On: Lovers or http://www.movingon.org/category.asp?sID=2&Cat=6 - those of us who've left the cult have posted a wide variety of experiences/thoughts/rants on the subject.

It's one of those difficult subjects that is far to broad to broach in one posting. It all depnds primarily on whether or not you equate sex with love.

If your GF has finally told you that she was in the cult, she's trusted you with a part of her lkife she doesn't spread around lightly. Someof us do it differently, like getting it out of the way right off the bat so well, if you don't like it, why bother? A friend of mine actually told her brand-new BF right away about it and even brought him along to all the x-member parties in her area (some of them were a bit wild) and hung out with him while we all joked about how much toilet paper we were now using etc.... (we used to have a limt in the cult). She figured if he could handle all of that, he'd be able to handle the details of her life. Sure enough, they're now enagged and she's happier than ever!

The thing is, you do have to realise even when she does share stuff with you is that none of what happened to her in her life was her choice! You have to realise that she is in every way a victim and that everything she did was simply her way of surviving. I just don't think that there is a concise way to explain the level of coersion and pressure that we all felt to conform and the punishments we faced if we did not.

An interesting poster for you (maybe a good gift for her): http://www.movingon.org/documents/100reasons.pdf

Some of us got together and decided it was better to mock it all!(reply to this comment)
from luvtoknow
Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 10:44
(Agree/Disagree?)

Thank you roughneck for such a complete explanation. Do you think it would be a good idea for me to ask her directly about these issues? Or am I better off bottling-it-up ... accepting that she had no control over what might have happened to her ... and avoid conversation on The Family unless she brings it up?

Why am I so curious? Why would it be any of my business? How have you and your partners dealt with this? I have major trust issues (thanks to a couple of unfaithful partners.) And I know that everyone is different ... but what are the odds of someone exiting the family in their late teens ... could be faithful to one partner? Again ... I know everyone is different ... but what sticks in my head is that I read an article that that said you were given the green light to lie if it makes you more comfortable. I just want to know if it is even possible that the girl I am with shares the one core value that I find ultimately important in a relationship: Honesty.

I know you are not her ... but maybe it would help me if you could explain the current set of morals and values that you live by. And even what you expect from the person(s) you are involved with.

Thanks again
(reply to this comment)

From Haunted
Wednesday, October 06, 2004, 12:35
(Agree/Disagree?)

What strikes me about your comment and "core set of values" regarding your relationship is that everyone has their own interpretation for the words you use to describe what you personally need out of any union. "Honesty" is a broad term much like "Faithful" and "Fidelity" and many other words thrown around to describe each person's level of comfort within a relationship.

In answer to your question whether it is possible for someone raised in the family to be "faithful" if by this you mean monogamous, sure! I know many ex-members who feel comfortable and love remaining monogamous with their partners.

However, I really think that you should be asking your girlfriend these set of questions. Like you so freely admit you know, everyone is different. If you value honesty as much as you say you do, then you should be honest with her about how you feel regarding these issues. ASK her if she's comfortable talking about the cult! She may simply not be ready to do so (in that case, you'll have to chill out and wait till she's ready or get out - you pick). ASK her if she can live by your definition of faithfullness and explain it to her.

You can't go by prior relationships to judge her by and if you expect her to be unfaithful and dishonest, sooner or later you may find you got exactly what you were expecting. Dude, all I can say is, she's really the one you should be asking these questions - not us! (Not that that stops me from having my own opinion on it, you can be sure - cheers - take care and hope everything works out for you pal). Oh, and BTW - take it easy on her - she's had a worse life than you could possibly imagine. (reply to this comment)

From
Wednesday, October 06, 2004, 12:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
We were NOT "given the green light to lie" if it made *us* more comfortable. We were given the green lie to lie to protect the group. We were under severe pressure to "open up" about our inner lives to the leadership, with no regard for our feeling "comfortable." How "comfortable" we were was of no consequence to them except that the more UNcomfortable we were the more they had control.(reply to this comment)

From Banshee
Wednesday, October 06, 2004, 11:51
(Agree/Disagree?)

Luvtoknow...It's a little hard to say whether you should ask your girlfriend directly about these issues or not...it completely depends on her and her personality. As roughneck pointed out, as similarly as we were raised, we are each very different, and your girlfriend is certain to be her own individual as well. It's pretty much impossible for any of us to say how she would react or how it would affect your relationship with her. So you're really going to have to go by what you feel you should do.

Going only by the comments you have made so far, it sounds to me like you need to talk to her for your own sake much more than for her sake. It sounds like you might not be the kind of person who can just "bottle it up" as you said, and it might affect your relationship in the long run because it might affect your attitude. Obviously these issues are very important to you, and therefore very important to the kind of relationship you want to have. I think that she will understand where you are coming from if you explain this to her. Most ex-SGs are very understanding people. But even with that, it also depends on how long term you are both seeing this relationship to be. If it's something that you both want to be long-term, then I suppose talking about it could be good.

You will have to be prepared for some things if you do ask her about it, though. She will most likely be VERY sensitive about it, VERY emotional about it, and will probably have a very hard time even just expressing herself about it. In many ways we lived in a separate world from everyone else, complete with our own language. To take our life, and try and "translate" it into anything remotely understandable for the average person can be a daunting task. Sometimes it seems easier for us to just not have to talk about it. Or there is also a lot of shame involved depending on the individual's experiences. That can be rough too. I'm not saying this to turn you away from talking to her about it if you feel you want to, because I think that many of us have found strength in being able to tell friends and those close to us about our past. A lot of us are actually looking for someone to hear about our screwed up past and still accept us anyway.

I think it is important, though, that your motives for knowing about her past are right. That it's only to help her, to support her, and to help your relationship, and not for any other personal reason of your own. (Not that you have one, I'm just saying.)

It will be very, very important that if she does decide to confide in you that you are respectful of the fact that she is giving a very large part of herself to you, and exposing herself in a completely vulnerable way. She is opening herself up for pain and the possible manipulation of the information she is giving. She is also making a step towards possible rejection if her past turns out to be something that you can't or don't want to handle. You can probably imagine that, for all these reasons and probably more, she might be scared to talk about her past. If she does make the brave step to tell you about it, it will be very, very important that you don't show shock or even anger, and especially that you don't pull away from her in any way, or act any differently towards her once she has told you stuff. She will feel much more trust the more you show her just support and understanding. Many of us don't even want sympathy. We don't want to feel like anyone is looking at us with pity, or like "damaged goods". But yet we do want compassion. It's a pretty fine wire to be walking, and not an easy thing to pull off.

As far as your concerns about her morals and values, and whether she shares them commonly with you or not, I would say that it is pretty safe to assume that she does (at least as far as the ones you have mentioned: honesty, faithfulness). Although it is true that we have all evolved (and continue to evolve) into very different and unique personalities and individuals, because of the way that we were raised--the over-sexualization and exposure to sex at a young age, the promiscuousness of the first generation, the constant destruction and separation of personal families, the lying, etc--it seems to me that having seen and suffered the repercussions of that atmosphere has actually had the affect of pushing us the other way. Of course, this is not to speak for all of us, and I don’t mean to generalize here, but it seems that many of us are inclined more to the opposite range of values than those with which we were raised, particularly having to do with sex/relationships/families/children, etc.

In other words, to answer your question, the odds of someone leaving the Family and being able to be faithful to one partner and to be honest with them are good.

Good luck, Luvtoknow, and I hope this helped a little.

(reply to this comment)
from love2know
Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 01:25
(Agree/Disagree?)

I'm scared to ask my ex-SGA girlfriend about her past. Maybe some of you could help me indirectly. What happens in Teen Training Camp? What age do girls go to it? Did everyone go thru it? Also, I would like your most honest answers to the next question: Are you SGAs looking for a monogamous relationship? Or do you still believe in free love? Finally, During what years did Child/Adult or Child/Sex take place? How young were they? And what groups ... in which countries ... saw more of this abuse?

Thank you
(reply to this comment)

From roughneck
Wednesday, October 06, 2004, 08:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
lovetoknow: As far as I know, Teen Training Camps (TTCs) aren't officially the going thing right now in The Family. -Though over the years the "teen camp" has undergone quite a few iterations, ranging from the "boot camp" that was the original TTCs (in Mexico and Japan I think) to the laissez-faire gatherings where there wasn't much of an agenda outside of "fellowship" (read: sex). For the majority (I think) of SGAs on this site, Teen Camps of some stripe or other played a large part in our indoctrination in the ways of the cult. Oh, and it wasn't just girls who went either.

What constituted a "teen" has also changed somewhat over the years. Back in the bad ol' days (by which I mean the days most rife with abuse, including sexual, physical, mental et c.), a person was considered an adult at the age of 12, including such "privileges" as watching movies with the adults, as well as inclusion in the home's "sharing schedule" (who got to sleep with whom) and alcohol ration. Most of the present ex-family youth were too young to be considered "adults" back then, but there were a few unfortunates who underwent the above. The worst abuses and crimes against children (as far as I can tell) happened between 1979 and 1993 (or so) in places like India, The Philippines, Thailand et c, though thanks to the family's literature-induced homogeneity, what happened in one place is almost guaranteed to have happened elsewhere. Said abuse was fairly well distributed amongst the various age categories in The Family, with corporal punishment on children as young as 6 months being commonplace if not routine, for example. Of course there were certain punishments and abuses endured by some groups of Family young people (specifically the Family's first children, -who would be approaching or in their 30s by now) that were specific to their particular age stratum.

Later on, the definition of what an "adult" was (versus "teen") depended very heavily on what "MO letter" one was reading that week. By the time the 90s and the "charter" came along, you had to be 18 to be considered an adult, although you still (as far as I know, to this day) could not have sex with anyone more than X (7?) years older than yourself until you turned 21.(Yeah - strain at a gnat, swallow a camel. I know.) -However, age of consent for sex with members of your own peer group (16-20) was and still is 16. Use of birth control or prophylactic protection is not specifically verboten, but is frowned upon as an obvious lack of faith in "God". The practice of encouraging family members to have unprotected sex is called "going for the gold", whilst using some form of birth control is "going for the silver" (or bronze.. :P).

As for whether SGAs are looking for a monogamous relationship: some indeed are looking, some are already in one, and some have no interest whatsoever. Some of us are far-left Liberal, some of us are far-right Conservatives, some of us are leans-neither-way Libertarians, some of us have no political interest at all. As much as the Family's stated goal was to produce cookie-cutter-perfect replicas of disciples, we have (for the most part) evolved enough since exiting the group to defy any pat stereotype. Movingon.org is proud home to a large number of differing socio-political &/or religious views, and I for one wouldn't have it any other way. :)

Hope this helps. :)(reply to this comment)

From exister
Friday, October 08, 2004, 08:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
Did they ever consider "going for the pearl necklace?"

As for those of you who "went for the gold" I hope you are taking good care of your multiple, living, breathing medals.

Religiously motivated procreation is stupid. To use a very loaded quote from The Church of Euthenasia:

"Eat a Queer Fetus for Jesus!"(reply to this comment)

From Haunted
Friday, October 08, 2004, 11:22
(Agree/Disagree?)

Well, personally we went straight for the rubber and yet still managed to finagle the gold metal!

Damn those stupid (probably 20 yr old) condoms we stole from the "shepherd's" room!! - I guess his ten thousand kids should have given us a clue, but hey, how wise do you expect a 16 yr old horny teen to be??(reply to this comment)

From Vicky
Friday, October 08, 2004, 11:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
Did anyone else follow the Olympics this year? It was great, but by the fourth day I was totally fucking tired of having to be reminded of TF's doctrines every time the presenters used the phrase 'Going for the Gold' or any number of variations. I swear I would have gone mad had it lasted much longer than it did! When oh when will the myriad automatic associations cease???(reply to this comment)

From
Wednesday, October 06, 2004, 08:59
(Agree/Disagree?)

You always impressed me, roughneck.

As far as whether Teen Camps are still a thing, it looks like some form still happens given these pics from "Germany Senior Teen Camp '04" and "Western EU SGA Camp in Italy":

http://www.netlinkup.com/mem_only.html(reply to this comment)

From Someone who looked
Wednesday, October 06, 2004, 12:41
(Agree/Disagree?)

How strange is it that one of the pictures is titled "Sara the Prisoner" and shows a 14 yr old girl posing in what appears to be a "normal" teen room. How right she is.......(reply to this comment)

From
Wednesday, October 06, 2004, 15:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
...having to hide away from the outside world, all those demons and vandari's et.. TF are the prison guards. (reply to this comment)

From Vicky
Friday, October 08, 2004, 07:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
OMG I feel seriously OLD right now!!! -- I just saw a pic of a guy who I recognised as someone I used to take care of when he was an MC, all grown up and with a pregnant gf! He's turned out to be quite dishy... Damn, now I feel like a dirty old woman! What to do, what to do!(reply to this comment)

From Banshee
Friday, October 08, 2004, 09:22
(Agree/Disagree?)

LOL! Totally been there myself. “Wait…WHO just had a kid?! That TWERP!!” The funny thing about it is, we were actually pretty young ourselves when we were taking care of these kids, and even though we (when I say "we" I mean "I") thought of ourselves ("myself") as all old and grown up and shit, the age gap between us wasn't really all that much. This mentality was, of course, another offshoot of TF's convoluted Alice in Wonderland standards of reasoning. I mean, hell, if we were "adults" at 12, in whacked-out cult years (as opposed to dog years) we were approaching retirement age at 18!

Then they decided to really fuck with our minds and sent us all back down to be "Experimental Adults" when that whole fad came out, and all of a sudden we had to "earn" our "adultship" once again. I think my general reaction to that whole craze was something like, "You mean, I don't have to be an adult any more if I don't want to? That ROCKS!!" Of course, when so many of my fellow "EAs" had just such similar reactions, they then had to make it "mandatory" to become an "EA" once you reached a certain age. I know I heard a collective groan of pain when we all realized that our brief reprieve was over, and the rules began to heap on, and all the old uncles and aunties started drooling over the fresh blood and bodies moving into their allowable range of sexual prey. I mean...partners.

I think that that whole "EA" thing was one of the few times we actually got called by what we were. "Experiments" is exactly what we were from the moment we were brought into our twisted existence. They should have just been calling us that from the beginning. When they realized their short lapse into truthfulness, they changed our names just as fast, but it was interesting to realize that they actually did know exactly what it was they saw us as.

Okay, why the fuck did I go off onto that tangent? I think I must have drunk too many energy drinks this morning.

(reply to this comment)
from A B
Friday, October 01, 2004 - 18:56
(Agree/Disagree?)

I think that this was a very good explainasion of the family.
(reply to this comment)
from sweetchick
Monday, March 08, 2004 - 12:04
(Agree/Disagree?)

Oh my!.... LOL! I just came back from a 2 week vacation from the Bahamas with my boyfriend. I didn't get a chance to read anything from this site while I was away. I didn't realize my little smart ass comment was going to cause such a stir. I was in a bad mood that day, (if I remember correctly) and I was on my 5th apple martini. Sorry guys, it was the alcohol talking... hee hee.. I think you're all pretty cool.

Ok, so we're still on the subject of education. I think anyone who wants to better themselves with more knowledge is a good thing. I'm studying in the evenings. I'm going for a degree in Business Medical Technology. Wish me luck!

By the way Farmer, most of what you're saying is not making much sense. What exactly are you tryng to say?
(reply to this comment)

From farmer
Tuesday, March 09, 2004, 07:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
In short: It's wonderful that you & everybody else gets/got a good sound education & I wish you the best with it in your upcoming profession or wherever you are & for whomever it may be "too late"(?) or not possible, for whatever reasons, I like to say, that's not so bad either, cause there are other values worth living for...plus I argued, since education is involving the passing on of knowledge (thoughts), that secular education should find some counterbalance through "religious/ethical" education, passing on of thoughts/values, which teach the respect & love for our neighbours...something you wouldn't find necessarily in a science & technology class...I assume, that if we had only secular education, as I called it, that it'd be sooner or later detrimental...someone should take the blame for the "mishaps" in history & it's somewhat debatable, whether it's only the politicians, who "blew it"...the latter also having education...I felt, education, only of the secular kind, is not automatically making you a better person, as a whole, character, skills & the whole...
Also I agree with itsxena2u, that namescalling should possibly be avoided on either side...however, I noticed that "mindmuscles" (from plenty education) lead at times some people here to put others down.I am not the only one sensing that..I am not feeling bad for myself, rather for others at times...for me education is a lifelong thing,
& I am in the comfortable position to be able to choose what I want to learn, besides the job...
May be you can answer your question directed at me, by answering for yourself: What makes actually a good human being?? (reply to this comment)
from exister
Friday, October 31, 2003 - 12:26
(Agree/Disagree?)

In your third paragrah:

"Almost without exception, they were insecure at the time they joined the group, they didn't fit in with others, or they were having emotional problems, had problems with depression, etc, then they met someone who believed in them, and introduced them to a whole group of people who appeared to genuinely care about them."

This is a gross oversimplification of the COG conversion phenomenon. I choose to define at least two classes of original converts. Bright, ideological types who sought a radical ideology and weak pathetic emotional drifters waiting to be scooped up by whatever ideological paradigm comes along.

The many talented artists and musicians in The Family attests to the existence of the first group. The existence of so many whining failures on this site attests to the existence of the second group. In short adults will pass on many behavioral traits to their children (Evolution, remember?) and the makeup of ex-COG children will be a rough representation of original COG converts.

I have worked in medicine for many years and the one group on this site that I will never deny the right to rant is those who were sexually abused. That leaves damage that is so severe that any and all venting should be validated and encouraged. However, for the rest of you who are bummed out that you didn't spend your childhood playing video games I say "Get over it!"

There is all of this whining about how your moral compass is all screwy, and you can't fit in anywhere. Why don't you try converting to amoral nihilism and starting from scratch? If ever there was a group ready to deconstruct the current ideological order and forge a new one we are it. We hold The Family in an observatory bubble. This experience should allow us to do the same to society at large if we can just stop bitching long enough to give the endeavor some serious consideration.

I'm out...
(reply to this comment)

From Gregd
Wednesday, February 04, 2004, 07:12
(Agree/Disagree?)

To Exister,

Do you think 'cause you studied medicine that you can start passing moral judgment on these guys?

In your words 'However, for the rest of you who are bummed out that you didn't spend your childhood playing video games I say "Get over it!" '.

If you spent your childhood selling crap music, asking strangers for donations for causes that didn't exist, getting punishment because of leader who thought you should be happier, being told you're a nothing, getting put on silence for 3-6months (not allowed to talk even to your Mum), scared that if you leave you won't be able to contact your family again and taught not to think for yourself; you'd be pissed to.

It's hard for these guys to relate their experiences to people who haven't left the Family. I'm sure some may be whining but they all deserve a bit of slack. There just blowing off a bit of steam.

There not "whining failures". There not "ranting".

This is thier site.

They've had enough knowitalls and hypocrites looking down on them.

So fuck off and put your microscope on yourself.(reply to this comment)

From seagull
Sunday, September 07, 2008, 22:15
(Agree/Disagree?)

"Whining Failures"? I agree with you. The people on this site who have left the organization could not be further from that. I totally commend all of you, and all people who have somehow found a way to leave a cult or other abusive/oppressive situation, for your courage. Please rant and don't stop ranting until everyone understands the nature of cult abuse. It is absolutely heartbreaking to read about children who grew up in this or any cult, denied a normal, free childhood. Obviously, no childhood is perfect and there isn't one "normal" childhood, but of course what I'm referring to is simply a childhood free from the pressures, fears, deprivations and oppressions of being in a cult (much less any outright abuse). The normal, simple difficulties of growing up and finding yourself when you are in the free world are hard enough without any group or organization adding to those pressures needlessly.

It is sad enough to think of the plight of young, idealistic people who joined an organization of their own free will, because of a desire for spirituality or a desire for a family-like, communal experience, or whatever, who were then gradually exploited and oppressed by that group or its organizers, to realize over time that now it's hard to get out, and if you do, you may face separation from your loved ones, and will doubtless face a very hard time trying to rebuild your life and relearn how to be a free person, and may even face continuing pressure or harrassment from members of the cult.

But how much more cruel a situation for children who were raised within a cult, whose entire world was there, who never had any outside reference point, who knew if they found the courage to leave, that they might face separation from all their loved ones in that organization, and basically their whole world, friends, church, everyone from their childhood, because all had been under the umbrella of that organization. Add to this the cruelty that maybe they were even raised to think of the outside world as depraved or demonic or empty or meaningless, growing up perhaps knowing they would be demonized or vilified themselves if they spoke out or left. How can a child of a cult ever find the freedom of thought to break free, much less the COURAGE to do it? And then how very hard it must be to find peace and calm and your own footing in that outside world. For this I commend all of you, so much.

All children deserve to grow up free of cult abuse, and the fear of abuse, whether physical, emotional, psychological, or spiritual abuse, including shunning, ostracism, separation from family or loved ones if they choose not to follow a particular "church/organization", being deprived of education, or even being kept away from their own native country and relatives they have there, etc.

I'm a Christian, and I was so fortunate to grow up knowing my freedom to worship or not worship, the freedom to have friends and relatives of other faiths, knowing that my own religion is purely a blessing and that there are no threats or convoluted rules involved and that it's only me and my prayers to God and the teachings of the Bible, it's a personal faith and journey, and no one else can write additional religious rules and edicts for me, no religious leader can subjugate me or demoralize me, etc. And to grow up knowing that no one would ever try to harm me or make me fearful or threaten me with rejection or shunning or any other such practice or take away my rights. All children deserve that.

I wish you all the best, your website here must be such a help to other young people going through similar survivor experiences and also helps all of us in the general population understand the nature of cult abuse and the plight of cult survivors better. Keep fighting for your rights and good luck to you all. (reply to this comment)

From sweetchick
Thursday, March 04, 2004, 17:14
(Agree/Disagree?)

Yeah, I agree with you Gregd! I think you need to get off your high horse Mr. Exister!! You and your girl Nancy need to tone down a notch. You both think that because you have years and years of higher education, that you are better than the rest of us. Maybe you don't say those exact words but thats how you come across in your comments. Sometimes I wonder if you're trying to overcompensate for something. HUH?

You and "Nancy" sound a lot alike. You either have a lot of the same issues or you're the same person under a different name. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H
Friday, March 05, 2004, 19:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
"You both think that because you have years and years of higher education, that you are better than the rest of us." Uhm, how is this not the case? I DO think that Nancy and Exister are better than me, by virtue of their education, and they're far better than the average person. I'm not saying they're NICER people for it, but how are we defining "better"? Smarter? Greater earning potential? Greater competency to deal with everyday life? A greater asset to society? If I get pulled over by the cops, I'd rather have Nancy in the car than you. Does that make her a "better" person? Yes, at least on some level. By the same token, if I'm snowboarding I'd much rather have Exister as my ski-buddy in case I break a leg or hit my head on a tree (which is pretty likely to happen!). Does this make him a better person than you? Yes. If you made the same choices in the above situations, I wouldn't hold it against you. Maybe instead of making crude hackneyed jokes* like "get off your high horse" and "you're trying to overcompensate" (which I interpret as a small dick joke), you should try to "better" yourself by taking some classes at your local community college or picking up some books (non-fiction!) at the public library.
(reply to this comment)

From Wolf
Monday, March 08, 2004, 02:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dude, education doesn’t make anybody a better person. Well applied education can make a person smarter, faster and more qualified, but what does it have to do with character? (reply to this comment)

From farmer
Monday, March 08, 2004, 03:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ok, but you're supposed to reply to frmrjoyish's comment: "better yourself with a little education"...(Could the reverse be possible: worsen yourself with the wrong education?? "Just in theory or so")...Seing that you see what I mean - I am thankful! - peace...(reply to this comment)

From farmer
Monday, March 08, 2004, 03:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sorry, Wolf you were replying to Joe..but personally I thought
to find my thoughts closer to Joe than others,recently on this thread, plus "better" happens to be in quotation marks in Joes contribution...me reading between the lines...So I don't think you're world's apart either???(reply to this comment)

From Nancy
Saturday, March 06, 2004, 11:31
(Agree/Disagree?)

Joe, no Y, that comment is appreciated, but I must disagree with you, of all people. You have just as much education as I did when I was 23, actually more. Further, you have something else. You have a naturally quick mind that has often provoked me to think about my own views and opinions. Yes, I wish you leaned a little more to the patriotic center, but nevertheless, you can spell circles around me. We might have lost equally as much education during our childhoods, but you did what I could not, and you pulled ahead in some areas despite the seven years I have on you. That is a tribute to you. I admire your intellect, like I admire Daniel's and Jules'. We could all be given three degrees, and then measured up, and I would probably lose, all other things equal. I am not where I am because I'm naturally brilliant. I am where I am because I worked my ass off for it and never took no for an answer. Whereas, folks like you, are right here with me because of your hard work AND natural ability.

I refuse to let idiots like Farmer and other FOBs compare and contrast folks on this website on the basis of degrees. Yes, I worked harder than some of them, and I do know the law better than most of them. Yet, I do not think myself better than folks on this website with one less degree or some with no degree. I judge people on the content of their arguments, not the letters behind their name. The idea that I or anyone else here with a degree or two thinks they're better stems from, as you put it, the small penis syndrome of the people making those claims. However, I have no problem yanking out the letters behind my name in arguments and fights against the Family and its indoctrination, as evidenced by some of the comments on this website. I guess what I'm saying is all dogs on the porch are equal because it took winning a lot of fights to get here, however it was accomplished, through formal higher education, raw intelligence and grit or just simply working one's tale off. Yet, I will produce the proof of my hard earned spot on the porch when provoked by dogs in the yard too lazy to do anything other than lay around whining and criticizing others in order to feel better about themselves.(reply to this comment)

From Nancy
Friday, March 05, 2004, 09:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
That's Nancy woman to you chica!(reply to this comment)

From itsxena2u
Thursday, March 04, 2004, 21:11
(Agree/Disagree?)

I know you're kinda new to this site, But Sarafina's right. You shouldn't jump to conclusions. I made that mistake when I came on to this site the first time. After reading a lot of the articles that many have written, you'll soon understand why a lot of people feel and speak the way they do. They've gone through some terrible things. Healing is a long term process.

Don't sweat it girl. Just make sure you know all the facts before making up your mind about a person. (reply to this comment)

From Anthony
Thursday, March 04, 2004, 21:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, I think it's better to overcompensate than to undercompensate, kind of like the difference between over and underachievers.(reply to this comment)

From sarafina
Thursday, March 04, 2004, 20:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ok "sweetchick" now your the one jumping to conclusions
"You and your girl Nancy need to tone down a notch. " first they don't NEED to do anything. Most of their comments are right on the button and the only reason I rarely feel the need to say anything is cause between the two of them they seem to cover everything I'd want to say only I find they say it much better! I admire the both of them. and alto they both have way more education then me and a way better use of words and knowledge of law they have never never once made me feel beneath them, and I've never felt that they were trying to put anyone down just because they had more education. I only wish I could be as quick and efficent w/ my comments as they are. I like people like them they have Conviction for what they think and believe in even if its conviction for something they hate or don't belive in. At least I KNOW where they stand on issues. I have learned one thing from this site never judge a person on here by what the write or how they act. Both Nancy and Exister are very wonderful and nice and nice people and both are people I would trust. Ps. Oh and they are two different people both Hotties and both inteligent!;)
Having said that I will also say that this was the one comment that exister has made that I actually didn't agree with. I actually would have written the same thing as you Gregd in fact ex and I had a long discussion about this very thred and by the end he was doing some whining of his own..lol ;)(reply to this comment)

From Nancy
Friday, March 05, 2004, 09:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thanks Sara! But, you're hotter than Ex and I both. =)(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish
Thursday, March 04, 2004, 19:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
Just because you haven't had the gumption, the drive, the brains, or whatever, to better yourself with a little education, doesn't give you the right to mock and belittle those who have! Your remedial speech patterns and sentance stucture give you away as one of those bitter uneducated losers exister referred to! Nancy, exister, and all those who actually got off their asses and did something with their lives have every right to be proud of their accomplishments. Do yourself a favor, go to school and make something of yourself, then come back here and attempt a coherent debate. Until then, if you can't run with the big dogs, stay the hell off the porch!!(reply to this comment)

From farmer
Friday, March 05, 2004, 04:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
better yourself with education...let's see: Gaschambers invented, biological & chemical weapons too,the neutronbomb, atombombs dropped on cities, countless people exploited by white collar-business-people (Ph.D. in economics bla, bla),scientists working for the mafia etc. etc....in the name of free (selfish,selfrighteous) thinking..when I was in the first semester in the university, the lefties circulated a paper, proving how many math-professors worked for the military,... the "benefits" of higher math.I guess you didn't mean that...it'd take also a "heart" besides some brains???????
For me people with whatever degree are not sacrosanct...not all of them appreciate the little workers, who e.g. sweat to
build their laboratories; many of'm seem to rather look down on'm, of course without acknowledging it, otherwise that'd be considered "naughty" of society, bad for their goody, goody reputation...sure there are plenty of other ones I do appreciate...however, how many doctors get charged for their failures while on duty (they have the money to defend themselves ), but how many little workers can get off the hook like them??Status quo!
(In Russia, during the communist's times, the scientist
earned mostly the same or less, than the average worker!)

Alright, no offense meant,it's not directed at you, exister, Nancy, or whoever else worked hard, to get themselves a degree,my sincere respect, not mentioned for the first time, however I get a bit bored sometimes with the "worship ceremonies for the god of education"...one thing I must say I always appreciated very much in reading books of very intelligent & educated people, they write much of their time in the conditional & don't sound, like they got it a l l(!) figured out!!When that is missing too much, I am careful of that writer...he might be a "false prophet" or someone with too much selfesteem.(reply to this comment)

From Wolf
Monday, March 08, 2004, 00:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sounds kind of like Pol Pot’s ideology.(reply to this comment)

From farmer
Monday, March 08, 2004, 01:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thanks Wolf, cause I forgot to mention him...him being educated in France, I just go by poor memory, used much of what he learned in theory on his own people.Unlike him I was never arguing aginst getting education...I wrote: "I guess, you didn't mean that"...frmrjoyish IMO meant a "good" education, leading to good results & my poor comment hinted at the fact, that knowledge without proper morality can have awful results.
And you can teach questionable morals as well as questionable
facts.Why does anyone want to find too much out about Sarin??
When he "senses" that it`s gonna terribly hurt & kill people??(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish
Monday, March 08, 2004, 16:56
(Agree/Disagree?)

Actually, farmer, I wasn't referring to a good, bad, or whatever education. We do not live in a black and white, good or bad world like we were told in TF. The atrocities you mention can be blamed on human nature, not on education. Education does not create these problems, but greed, envy and a whole host of other human "characters" are good suspects, IMO.

"Morality" is highly subjective. What we as a society consider good or moral is incredibly offensive and "immoral" to other societies and vice versa. The morality should come into play with the implementation of such knowledge, not simply the obtaining of it. For example, learning how to split an atom has taught the scientific community an incredible amount on how matter decays, aging techniques, physics, as well as possible new sources of energy other than the sun. Then politicians decide to use science to blow up several cities in Japan!! Now, whose to blame? The knowledge, or the use of the knowledge?? And, while wer're at it, how much is too much about Sarin? Should we not study it and possibly discover new uses as well as antidotes?? All this takes reasearch, and research requires wanting to "find out". I think questioning and the desire to learn are good things and should never be discouraged. Did you know the original discovery of the electron was dismissed as "unimportant"? Imagine where our society would be without electricity??

In my initial comment, I just got tired of some people on this site assuming because someone is educated and speaks in an intelligent manner, they are on a metaphorical "high horse". After what we've all been through, we should all support each other and realize the huge obstacles those of us who chose to pursue a higher education have had to overcome.

I know that not everyone chooses that path and I wasn't trying to put anyone down, I just know how difficult it is and am tired of the "small penis syndrome", as Nancy so eloquently put it (lol). I believe everyone chooses their own path but I am a firm believer that the various perspectives that can come from education can greatly improve the way one thinks and one's perspective on the world as well as improving one's ability to think and reason for oneself. After the way we were raised, we should all be open to exploring new facts, ideas and opinions.

I would never hold myself above anyone. I don't think I'm better than anyone else. I learn and work with incredible genious every day and I'm always afraid someones gonna wonder, "hey, what's she doing here?" I just take it one day at a time and work my ass off to master the incredible challenges that biology and ecology present. (reply to this comment)

From farmer
Tuesday, March 09, 2004, 07:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dear frmrjoyish...sorry, if this becomes so long...I agree with you or others on a whole lot...I understand also your intentions in correcting someone, plus the people in question, including you, worked really hard to earn their degrees.Compliment again.May be I am putting wordings on
"goldscales"...for me to become better, you need a good input.
In that sense education has to be "good"...and since I like the "holistic approach", so to speak, I was fussing about the
danger, that only secular/technical (or what would you call it?) education could be desired/meant.But I am realizing, that few people seem to care about this differentiation!?...
(Of course, we could argue, whether the scientist are off the
hook, as far as the atrocities are concerned...may be you'd find it mean, if I drew an analogy to who is responsible in TF...but may be I don't want to argue right now ; ) )...I wish you all the best in your "peaceful" reasearch!! : )(reply to this comment)

From itsxena2u
Monday, March 08, 2004, 21:00
(Agree/Disagree?)

Dear fmrjoyish, I agree with you when you said "We should all support each other and realize the huge obstacles those of us who chose to pursue a higher education have had to overcome." I think education is a very good thing, especially considering we didn't get much in TF. I personally would like to go back to school and get a bachelors degree. At the moment I'm trying to get back on my feet financially. I just went through a divorce and being a single mom of two is very tough, nevertheless my goal of returning to school remains. I think it plays a big role in boosting one's self esteem and their success in life.

There are many things a lot of us here have in common and agree upon. I think its great how we all can see eye to eye on a lot of things and benefit from each others advice and experience. Not only from being in TF but from those who have been "out" longer and have some good tips on how to survive a life outside the Family.

My observation since coming to this site has been that when some folks don't agree with someone else's point of view, they are called names like stupid, losers, idiots just to name a few. I guess what I'm trying to say is education and maturity aren't the same thing, right? A person can have a great deal of education (or none at all) but still be mature, open minded, respectful and polite. I'm not a highly educated person but I do use a lot of common sense and logic. Calling people names or insulting their inteligence is beneath me, I will not stoop that low no matter how much education I may have. I guess that's something a person doesn't learn in school but rather from their parents and a good upbringing. Anyone can be a kind and considerate human being regardless of their upbringing, their past, religion, race, gender and education.

I think you were right on the money when you said: "I believe everyone chooses their own path but I am a firm believer that the various perspectives that can come from education can greatly improve the way one thinks and one's perspective on the world as well as improving one's ability to think and reason for oneself. After the way we were raised, we should all be open to exploring new facts, ideas and opinions."

I don't think you put anyone down. In fact, I think you did a great job of clearly expressing the need for more education in order to better ourselves. I don't think you have to worry about what the "incredible genious" might be thinking of you. He/she probably loves the fact that your a hard worker, dependable, responsable, smart and beautiful! Sometimes I think we don't apreciate ourselves or give ourselves enough credit, because we were always told that anything good we do is the Lord and anything bad we do is us. I think its time we start giving credit where credit is due!
(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish
Friday, March 05, 2004, 10:02
(Agree/Disagree?)

BTW regarding your comment: "(In Russia, during the communist's times, the scientist earned mostly the same or less, than the average worker!)" Ha!! I'm not sure exactly what your point was, but anyone in the scientific community knows you don't get in this field for the money! Your preachin' to the choir, babe!! (reply to this comment)

From Nancy
Friday, March 05, 2004, 09:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
"False prophet"?! Are you fresh off the cult boat? Science, technology and education is what made it possible for you to visit this website and post your little comment. The argument that education is inherently bad, therefore, we should continue to live in ignorance is a cult argument to keep their members dumb and brainwashed. That argument could be used much more appropriately when applied to religion. Much more evil has been committed in the name of religion than in the name of education. Wars have been fought over religion. Men, women and children have been oppressed and killed in the name of religion and God. So, if that ridiculous argument was to apply to anything, it is more appropriately applied to religion, as it has been the cause of much more evil committed in the world. Further, the wonderful thing about education is that it allows you to think and subsequently decide FOR YOURSELF what are your own beliefs and what was shoved down your throat by a religious cult.

Ever notice how much conspiracy theory the cult believed in? They loved conspiracy theories. They loved the fear, paranoia and suspicion they caused because if you have your brainwashed cult members living in fear and paranoia, then they won’t begin to think for themselves or even consider alternate ideas since those ideas are so “evil” and will “cause them to doubt and be backsliden.” One should be suspicious of anything they are meant to accept on “faith” or “blindly.” It’s not difficult to ask, “What are they trying to hide?” You can figure it out for yourself over time, or I could tell you now. In case, you want to skip ahead, what they are trying to hide is the truth. They don’t want their brainwashed cult members to begin to think for themselves. That would lead to them being exposed. So, in order to avoid that they have to smear education as “evil” and “dangerous.”(reply to this comment)

From farmer
Sunday, March 07, 2004, 19:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
"False prophet" is in quotation marks, my way of indicating, that it's not to be taken literally, but rather figuratively...the authors in question dealing with secular topics...although "false prophet" could also be a NT quote, but you wouldn't put Christians on a cultlevel??By the way there is an increased usage of the word cult: you have cult-drinks, cult-hairstyle, cult-movies etc.pretty much replacing the "in" term for that?!IMO that trend could lead to almost belittling the evil effects cults have.I am off the "cult boat" (living in) for almost 15 years, not much compared to eternity, but I wouldn't call it fresh.
Sorry, you jump to conclusions.I never said -may be you didn't refer to me???!!- that education is inherently bad.
I was protesting, that education should automatically make you a better person.Isn't it also the question, what you learn & how you apply it?I was even suggesting, that not all secular - I assumed that's what it is really about - education is really so beneficial in the end & from the examples I made you cannot jump to the conclusion, that I am against all education...I gave the hint, that besides some brains it also takes the heart.
You are talking about the evils committed in the name of religion.Pls. count your historybooks on that subject on your bookshelf & I count mine...this subject is not new to me..you run in open doors!!!But wouldn't you say that there is also education based on religious views & thoughts?So if you have wrong concepts & ideas in religion, the results should be awful, isn't it?So if your moral compass is not right, you could have loads of facts learned through education in your brain & in the end you use them to hurt...why, because IMO it takes the right setting of the compass, it takes also a good moral education.I wished to say, secular education is IMO not enough...Joe also adressed it from another angle, what is it really all about, a better person?
You talking about deciding for yourself.I like the debates, the thoughts about "free will", quite an old religious subject, it also touches the subject of predestination, probably no room here.I 'd like to hear what you think, that the experiments of the neurospychologist Benjamin Libet/San Francisco imply...really free will??...how much determinism??It touches also your field of work: how guilty is a person etc.

I don't know, why you talk about conspiracies...there are conspiracies...if you ever lived in Italy or read the international news, you would have heard of the P2, where highranking military people, bankers etc. planned "reactionary" things behind closed doors.You should be able to come up with other examples.I don't know whether the recent case of lawyer Jesselyn Radack would fit your idea of conspiracy, but it seems close & not so nice for the concerned.The point of why TF loved the conspiracy theme is so simple:
We all loved to see us as the persecuted little band of faithful, taking it up with all kinds of Goliathes...to do what needs to be done, "to warn the wicked & gather the sheep".In the end the groups & even countries "attacked" by words were really numerous & there were IMO really repercussions from it, which served as a feedback.Plus it fitted all in "with the signs of the time".
I give you another point of view, why TF smeared education:
Dust of your memorybook (alright, you don't have it anymore...I hardly have anything of "them" either) look up Acts 4:13 & that is one easy clue - not the only verse though - why much education wasn't seen as very useful...if the apostles of Christ were that sucessful without having too much knowledge (Moses,Paul & Luke had apparently lots more..) in terms of their time, it was considered appropiate, to likewise not cram your head with too many things, not related to that faith.
One huge mistake that I consider TF made in dealing with the needs of the SGAs was this: from a certain age, they should have simply asked the teenagers what their desire is like, study or remain in TF (though: too many other odd teachings & practices) & they should have helped them towards their individual goals, at least calling some relatives to see if they would be willing "to take over"...instead they thought,they could beat people into shape, in delusion thinking, there is no place like the family, in a wonderful way...(reply to this comment)

From Nancy
Sunday, March 07, 2004, 20:30
(Agree/Disagree?)
What?! I, honestly, cannot follow a word of this.(reply to this comment)

From farmer
Monday, March 08, 2004, 02:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
It's pretty easy & may be best summed up in the first chapters
of the Bible: the tree of the knowledge of good & evil.

Good thoughts lead to good knowledge, good knowledge leads to good education & remember not what enters into the mouth pollutes someone but what comes out, stemming from the heart
Therefore bad thoughts, lead to bad knowledge & result in bad teachings & like a little leaven could spoil good education, IMO.Or would you say, that all teachings are good?I think you're pretty much-or 100%?!- against family doctrine & education!?!I am to a high degree against it myself & don't care right now about filtering the good amount.
So this is what you experienced as a bad example.
But I was arguing, that history has proven, that not all knowledge => not all parts of education (process of teaching & learning) were so beneficial,... by the fruits...It might look insignificant, but I cared to "protest".

If that's all too stupid & dense, well, Joe summed it up through making personal examples, what I could live with as differentiation...(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish
Friday, March 05, 2004, 09:08
(Agree/Disagree?)

Please, farmer!! Education in and of itself is not good or bad, it's not moral or immoral. Are you saying that because some men have used technology to harm rather than help, the world would be better off by keeping everyone dumb, happy, and ignorant? It has been my experience that the people who do not see the value of an education are the people who do not have one.

The technology used to create such things as atomic bombs, gas chambers, chemical and bio weapons, has also been used to create medicines that have saved the lives of millions of people, it's allowed humans to populate otherwise unhabitable portions of the globe, allowed access to various forms of energy, increased agricultural output which has allowed the human population to exponentially increase, the list goes on and on, but of course it would require an education to truly understand appreciate all the benefits.

So, in other words: don't blame the technology, blame the use of technology!!!(reply to this comment)

From farmer
Monday, March 08, 2004, 01:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
People who do not see the value of an education are the people who do not have one...the worst example I can figure, that show "exception" to your experience, is given above by Wolf...there are other , "better" ones...I forgot what the unabomber was all about, except that he was a mathprof. disillusioned with something...living withdrawn in his cottage. Alf, do you have a suitable link??
(reply to this comment)

From Alf
Monday, March 08, 2004, 14:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
Certainly. http://www.panix.com/~clays/Una/(reply to this comment)

From farmer
Tuesday, March 09, 2004, 06:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thank you!That'll take time to read & digest!(reply to this comment)

From farmer
Friday, March 05, 2004, 16:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
I am pleased, cause we basically agree to a certain degree.
I was mainly against the phrase, to better ourselves with education...& in a way I jumped on it, cause to me it implied the way of education as we have it, where the emphasis is laid mostly on what the reigning powers & parties think is the most
useful, to suit the needs e.g. a global market, where it's the big ones who make the sweep, sooner or later...granted, one of the fringe benefits of that free educational system is, that you can study the "oddest subjects", take the "wildest" courses etc. all very well (But who gives you a job for that later??)...since education is by def. a passing on of information about a particular subject, or to show someone a better way to do something, well in that broader sense, I think I shouldn't even have fussed, because I do see the need for getting the "heart educated", if you know what I mean...for me it's not enough e.g., to get my belly stuffed with all kinds of goodies from the supermarket, & even if they invented hundreds of varieties of yoghurts more, well that wouldn't increase my happiness at all, as a matter of fact, tons of people flee on vacations to people of a simpler lifestyle & wonder what they've got.There are people, who don't have all our "toys" & are yet happier than those, who invent them...oh well, may be they find the happiness gene ; ) By the way scientists/engineers have to invent "smart" ways, that some products don't last too
long, so that people are compelled to buy new ones...economically (ecosystem):"very smart"(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish
Friday, March 05, 2004, 19:34
(Agree/Disagree?)

Farmer, I'm in the middle of packing moving this weekend) plus my girlfriend borught over vodka and countreau for cosmos, so your gonna gonna have to try to make more sense of what the hell your trying to say!!

Sorry, I'm not ecactly in the right frame of mid to respoind, but what the hell are you talking about??? U said: "I do see the need for getting the "heart educated", if you know what I mean...for me it's not enough e.g., to get my belly stuffed with all kinds of goodies from the supermarket, & even if they invented hundreds of varieties of yoghurts more, well that wouldn't increase my happiness at all, as a matter of fact, tons of people flee on vacations to people of a simpler lifestyle & wonder what they've got." What the hell does that have to do with getting an education????????????????????? sorry, dude, but I have no freakn clue wjat the hel ur tlakng about!!!!!!!!

"granted, one of the fringe benefits of that free educational system is, that you can study the "oddest subjects", take the "wildest" courses etc. all very well (But who gives you a job for that later??).." WTF r u talkin about????? (reply to this comment)

From farmer
Saturday, March 06, 2004, 02:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
You're quite right in your observation, that figuratively I was "jumping from thought to thought", "zig zagged"...well, I was in a hurry, shortly before going to work...I am sorry, that I left you puzzled...I wasn't very happy about it myself!!
there are plenty achievements of science,that billions of
people benefit from ...but you basically agreed, that people
did have suffered though from the inventions of scientists in history, sometimes.
therefore it'd be contrary to evidence, that only learning
& getting an education will make you a better person.You have then added knowledge, but in the end it's how you use that knowledge.
I assume, we could agree on that.A seemingly simple invention like that of the knife would be sufficient to illustrate, what I mean.(You can use the knife to help or to wound)
Well I am open to it, how you would name, call such knowledge...wisdom??...I used the analogy, heart education...
depending, where you would spot some con-science??Lots of things are found out by trial & error, but when it comes to the atom bomb?You said education in & of itself is neither good nor bad...well, education comes from thoughts...are the thoughts being taught always due to facts?Couldn't there also be some bad thoughts involved..could there be something
like bad science??Is the atom bomb neither good nor bad??
Personally I blame that technology & the use & the threatened use of it...countless of nightmares were generated by it, cause scientists showed no restraint.To me
these are no good thoughts, nothing to be proud of,IMO!
What about manipulating the genetic codes to someones liking?
Also science is getting instrumentalized; not everything you study gets you financially further in life, something you have to live off, there are few who dare to be so idealistic & just study for learning's sake...& when big money is in the "game", well, I supect, that that & fame & power can ruine someones morality...even if he/she is a scientist...nobody researches just for a few peanuts...the money is alright...many times.
And then I personally feel, we already got much more, than
really necessary...well, who's at the helm of industrial corporations, political parties etc.? Very educated people.
Are their decisions always so beneficial?
The people who don't appreciate education are according to your experience people that don't have one...well, where do you draw the line?What is sufficient education?Which degree: BA..MA..? In the third world many poor, uneducated parents live super frugally to save money to allow their kids to have good education.I admire them!!
I was not arguing against education in general...pls...I was
arguing against the wrong kind, cause sometimes less can actually be more...the world would be better off without some of the crazy fantasies of some educated people.You don't believe that??Not everything that could be invented & done IMO should also be done!!!And yeah, I don't need thousands of different kinds of Yoghurts...just a joke!
I am talking about a satisfaction, that has not so super much to do with your brain nor your belly.How much do we understand falling in love?..yes, that has been also researched a bit...but do I care for the results?I enjoy it
& basta.A little observation of mine, even if it should hurt some, I can't help sharing my impression:In order to win an argument on this site you find IMO too often, that the acecard:" uneducated, dumb & stupid" is pulled.You get the impression, people are "worth" more if they have a string of degrees.Personally I couldn't care less, I have enough satisfaction in life, independent of my poor brain, that I don't need that boost.And believe me, there is no envy for those, who have millions of facts in their brain stored, they have my respect.Yet I pity & chuckle about educated people, who think, that's the only referencepoint in life & who have no interest for the matters of the heart, as I called it,that education I'd give always the priority.But I
feel bad for people, who may be dreamt of a good education, but couldn't pull through for whatever circumstances...plus studies on twins may show all the more,that certain behaviour & skills etc. are due to our genes & not only our upbringing & environment.So is it always the individuals fault, if he/she has poor education???People with a big heart, though uneducated - imagine a hospitable old lady in the mountains, offering you some refreshment, when you need it the most - rank with me higher in respect
than some coldhearted, calculating, supereducated people (thousands of workers become jobless, because some topmanagers loused it up)...Alright, I am all for g o o d
education & sometimes I wished, the trumpets for education wouldn't be blown so loud, for reasons stated & also because some people are "scared" by it, for lack of ed. & lack of self esteem, independent of much knowledge.(reply to this comment)

From Alf
Friday, March 05, 2004, 12:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
Technology push or pull? I'm with the unabomber on this one. I think he's like my helper from the spirit world except he's not dead yet.(reply to this comment)

From sarafina
Thursday, March 04, 2004, 20:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yes! what she said!(reply to this comment)
from paddy
Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 01:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
i have met a boy recently who was brought up in the COG. he hasextremely strange attitude of relationships and sex. For example, he wants me only to be with him but dose not want commitment and is constanty chating up girls when im out with him. Im not having a bar of it but is this controlling behaviour stereotypical for ex members? having been party brought up in another religious cult (harri krishnas) the isolation to the outside world and manipulation and corrution of pepole in power is familiar. But the promisquity and disrespect the guys have for their partners is hard to understand. from what ive read there are many complex issues that people are dealing with and this site has let me scrach the surface.
(reply to this comment)

From Bill
Thursday, March 04, 2004, 07:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hello Paddy,
I just read your comment. I am a counselor who just learned of this site through a new client who was born to parents in this cult, and grew up in it. I know little in this area, but wanted to let you know that it is not unusual for boys to be selfish and inconsiderate, to be possesive and controlling, and to want to fool around with others while keeping their girlfriend for themself, all the while having no regard for the welfare of their girlfriend. This is not the case with all boys, but with quite a few, and it is a character flaw that they may or may not outgrow. It is not the result of the cult experience. It is a common human "disorder" that exists to some degree in some of the individuals in all cultures in the world as far as I know. As you learn more about people of all kinds, this will become apparent.
(reply to this comment)
from PinkBunnyofdeath
Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 12:07
(Agree/Disagree?)

What are SGA's and FGA's and SR's and all the other abbreviations you guys use? just curious.
(reply to this comment)

From OrdinaryGuy
Tuesday, August 05, 2003, 15:07
(Agree/Disagree?)

geez, been awhile since I posted under this name, forgot I had it.

SGA are 2nd generation adults, or someone over age 18 born in the group to parents who joined TF (The Family). Most people here are SGAs, most are ex-members, some posters are still members.

SG is just a 2nd generation, someone of any age born in the group.

FGAs are 1st generation adults, the parents of SGAs who joined the group.

No idea what SR's is, if I knew the context I could probably say.

Now to answer the question below Bunny's. I did not do "FFing", or flirty-fishing, ie. having sex with someone to convert them to the group/ support themself. First, I would never ask a chick for money to have sex with me (if they offer it though...I suppose the restaurants, clothes and concerts that chicks here get me could be considered that by some, but I promise the sex is just incidental...I'm not a whore...ahhhh).

Most female members over the age of 18 who werent ugly participated in FFing from 1977 or so to 1985, (sorry, dont know the exact dates).

(reply to this comment)

From PinkBunnyofdeath
Tuesday, August 05, 2003, 21:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thank you. (reply to this comment)
from Bluebird
Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 08:15
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think your article is a good explenation for all of us who dont understand the system of "The Family".But is it right that some members did FF?Did you do it too or do you know some people who did it?

(reply to this comment)

From Jill
Saturday, May 31, 2003, 16:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
I came to this website because of a poster I saw at a concert..this is all very foreign to me!!! What does F/F mean?

I live in a small town and I cannot even imagine this type of group of people existing It sounds like Waco Texas to me ...please enlighten me to your struggle I believe in a highest good for all and whatever path one takes to move to knowthat they themself are the I am that I am BEING love about poer or abusing it or about self...it is about being self-less...
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from Hansel
Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 19:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hey, where in SEA were you? What year did u leave?
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From OrdinaryGuy
Sunday, February 09, 2003, 22:30
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thailand, Singapore, Madras, India a long time ago in 1986, Indonesia, Malaysia, what about U? email me if U want. (reply to this comment)

From Hansel
Sunday, February 16, 2003, 15:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
I was in Thailand, Singapore and my family visited Indo and Malaysia some. Whats your email?(reply to this comment)
from Sparkle
Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 15:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well,if everything is so bad where you grew up, I think you came to the right conclusion to just leave & find out about the "oh so great system" you are happy to live in now.

And if by any chance you lived in the system for thirty years & you are still all flipped about it, well all there is left to say, none are as blind as they who simply close their eyes.
But I guess it's human nature always longing for what they don't know or have.
I have been growing up in the system and living in it for the longest & it's amazing that many people who grew up in it see clearer what is happening in this world & in the spirit, than those who grew up with the truth.
Guess you've got to burn your fingers for yourself.
And one thing is for sure there are tons of assholes in the system,including the abusing superhero, so welcome to "the better" world, where folks just get druged or jump of a bridge.
Anyway no matter where you come from it's all a question if or if not, you can forgive the once who've done you wrong.
(reply to this comment)

From DarkAngel
Tuesday, October 28, 2003, 10:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
From someone that preach about forgiving it's kind of amusing that you can't have a more loving and forgiving attitude to correct others ,are you like one of those Fam. leader that go around correcting everyone ,beeing confident about their own status with God?(reply to this comment)

From Mack
Thursday, January 23, 2003, 02:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hey Sparkle! So glad to hear you slam the system, (NOT) which you probably live off like a leach sucking parasite. If you think every one jumps off bridges because the system is so bad you are just a simple minded naive punk. Get a life and get a clue. Youre brainwashed deceived and need to stay on your own website where you can site around and worship your child molesting leader David Berg and his disciples. Just a little reminder for you since you wanted to bring up suicide Aaron Berg, David Bergs own son committed suicide he jumped off a freaking cliff, so if the "Family" is so great explain that one wise ass. I'm sure you will be back on this site because the temptation is to great not to check it out, I guess you must have too much free time on your hands. Maybe if you were out there pedaling your STD's to the world and begging for money to support your unemployed lover and bastard children you wouldnt be on this site writing your stupid little comments. I recommend you go back to hell where you and the rest of the "Family" belong. Later freak.(reply to this comment)

From Mack
Thursday, January 23, 2003, 02:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hey Sparkle! So glad to hear you slam the system, (NOT) which you probably live off like a leach sucking parasite. If you think every one jumps off bridges because the system is so bad you are just a simple minded naive punk. Get a life and get a clue. You’re brainwashed deceived and need to stay on your won web site where you can site around and worship your child molesting leader David Berg and his disciples. Just a little reminder for you since you wanted to bring up suicide Aaron Berg, David Bergs own son committed suicide he jumped off a freaking cliff, so if the "Family" is so great explain that one wise ass. I'm sure you will be back on this site because the temptation is to great not to check it out, I guess you must have too much free time on your hands. Maybe if you were out there pedaling your STD's to the world and begging for money to support your unemployed lover and bastard children you wouldn’t be on this site writing your stupid little comments. I recommend you go back to hell where you and the rest of the "Family" belong. Later freak.(reply to this comment)
from JJB
Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 08:40
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hit the wrong button nothing like a good dose of "humility" to start out (always recommended in our previous lives). Anyway I'm a 22 male of an ethnicly (great for my looks ha ha vainty) mixed marriage living in SEA. My fam and I just got "reclassified" about 2 months ago cuz we approach things with a prayer and a good dose of quality and progressive elbow grease, unlike most places I know where it's "quantity" and the let's get out by 7:30 am syndrome(do u know where ur going? no! knw what ur doing? no. Any plan??? Plan??! duh No. Now lets go!! does this ring a bell). Most of my life I had the privilage to be in situations where none or at least very little of the abuse and "harsh realities" of Fam life were the norm. Most of my time execpt 4 3 years were spent in pioneer sits where you are free o develop as an independent intelligent person instead of being "molded" as a jjt worker ant or even better jjt overseer. My parents (bless them) fought for us kids and went thru hell and high water to protect us and for that I am extremely thankful and lucky. Well Im currently a little confused but still serving the Lord with my fam and doing well and that is confusing cuz I was always drilled that you "leave u lose." If any one has any postive stories advice about their new life out in the world it would be appreciated. Thanks and have a Merry C'mas
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From JoeH
Tuesday, December 24, 2002, 15:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
If you're looking for positive stories as in "We're still serving the Lord, PTL!" you better head over to NewDayNews (I think its ndn.com) cause no one here wants to here about it! We serve Mammon dammit!(reply to this comment)
from JJB
Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 08:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well I just "stumbled" on this site thru a google search and am still going thru it so forgive 4 the fact that I am not currently in the info loop. A little info about myself is probably required
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From Welcome to the Vandari fold!
Tuesday, December 24, 2002, 18:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ignore Joe's hostility, he just doesn't like religion.

There are a number of people here who, although they hate the cult, still believe in "All that God suff". If you seek you will find them. (lol) (reply to this comment)
from Out for 20+ Years
Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 12:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
I understand that this site is for "second generation" (COG/FOL), but I would like to comment. I joined when I was 18 in 1974, and thank God, left in 1980, after receiving the letter from Berg, promoting...encouraging...justifying INCEST! I ran like the dickens (no pun intended) back to the US with my two children. The FF'ing, mind control, etc. were hard enough to bear, but this was too, too much!!!!! They were 2 and 4 at the time, so were not subjected to the horrific abuse so many of you suffered.

I am so happy you found a way to escape and no longer have to suffer such unbearable emotional, physical, sexual, etc. torture. I wish each of you the best and know how difficult the adjustment must be. I will keep all of you in my thoughts, prayers, and good wishes.

I understand this site has helped many, and congratulate you on this project. Love, me
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From HEY Out for 20+ years please email me
Sunday, February 16, 2003, 17:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
I would really like to hear more about the letter where Berg specifically encourages incest. I am searching to understand how my folks did this to me. Please if you get a chance or if anyone else has information or even a copy of this letter, please, please let me know. thank you
venus_fly_trap(reply to this comment)

From ChrisG
Wednesday, October 29, 2003, 22:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
I remember reading an article in the FN Encyclopedia from a young teenage girl who described the relationship that she had with her father. She said her father had started to look at her in a sexual way, and had come into her room and felt up her leg (or something like that). Berg wrote back “According to your faith be it unto you”. When I read this as a kid, it freaked me out, as I could not imagine having sex with my father. From the moment I read that article, I realized I was completely unprotected, which is why I remember the article so clearly, even though years have gone by. In Berg’s letter, Childhood Sex (I think that’s what it is called), there is a quote that says that God has taken away all barriers for His children, and all sex is kosher, regardless of age or relation. At the end of the letter there is a comment by Faithy (Berg’s daughter) that testifies that Berg touched her when she was a little girl and it “felt so good”. I was able to reread the above-mentioned portions of Childhood Sex four years ago, when I got them off of a church group in SF who hated the COG. (reply to this comment)

From WickedWhisper
Sunday, February 16, 2003, 19:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
VFT, there was a "Question $ Answer" letter in the old red GN book that had a question from a mother that started like: "My son and I have a really close affectionate relationship..." and she went on to ask what Berg thought about "Loving"(Barf!) sexual contact between mothers and sons.

Berg's answer was "According to your Faith be it unto you." (Mat 9:29) Now, all us Ex-Family folk know that that means "yes, go right ahead". Of course if it ever came to court the COG would probably weasel out of it, but WE know better.

"David Berg...it would have been better for him that a millstone had been tied around his neck and that he had been cast into the sea."(reply to this comment)

From DarkAngel
Tuesday, October 28, 2003, 10:24
(Agree/Disagree?)

You got it right on the head .

Do you know that the latest is that Berg is now retraining Tim the father of Techi,the poor soul that died of skin cancer as a punishment from God to honor His beloved prophet berg .

So now this poor Tim is learning his lessons right under the prophet of God because he didn't learn while in the King's house

So Queen Maria got the prophecy straight from heaven and Tim is actually begging any young people in the Fam. not to leave the Fam. as they would surely suffer the same fate as he is now ;shining dear old berg shoes and still learning at the hands off the loving prophet !!!!

how sick do you think it can get

I guess now berg is in control in Space City and God forgiveness is inoperant since berg has the latest new heavenly revelations at his commands.What a farce ,and guess what? Most folks in the Fam. do actually believe all this and thank God for letting them know so that they do not make similar mistakes .OR DO THEY?

Poor folks !!! (reply to this comment)

From remembers
Sunday, February 16, 2003, 20:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
Then there was "The Devil Hates Sex," stating that "there's nothing wrong with sex" regardless of the age, relationship, etc.(reply to this comment)

From WickedWhisper
Sunday, February 16, 2003, 21:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yep, Berg came right out and said it, many times. I can't believe that Family members still don't get that, it's so obvious that Berg was a pedophile.

Do you remember the "Heaven's Children" episode where Berg returns from the spirit world and has sex with both Zerby and Techi in the same bed? The text said something about how "In the spirit there are no phyisical relations, whatever is done in love is good, blah blah.."

Techi was only about 5-7 years old when that comix was published. I would like to ask any Family members why it is that "God's Anointed Endtime Prophet" was fantasizing about having sex with his prepubescent daughter?

And don't try to tell me that "Eman and Apollos were responsible", Berg ALSO published a whole series of "MO" letters about Heavens Girl/Children, which make it clear that he was directly responsible for even the smallest details about that publication. Text, art and plot, Berg was to blame for all that crap.

He even sent Eman a picture of Mene to use as a model, and told him at one point to "Make Heavens Girls chin smaller, more petite" In other words, more like the little girl he liked to abuse.
(reply to this comment)

From DarkAngel
Tuesday, October 28, 2003, 10:04
(Agree/Disagree?)

Totally agree with you .

It seems that when inthe Fam. it's hard for anyone to think clearly.Too much pressure and meetings and reports and continual conditioning so the best thing is to get out and clean up ,a bit like detox and then see the forest from afar!!! ha!

It's actually quite refreshing outside especially when you don't need to read all of Queen and King bullshit DEPRESSING inspiration.

I recently met some Fam. member at a local amusement park they all look so down and depressed having some kind of dark aura around them that would make anyone want to stay away ,as far away as possible .

Is it all the Good News that they have to constantly read and reread that affect them in this manner????

Yes ,no doubts about it.

Funny I was under the impression that someone full of the Word was suposed to be shiny and full of Light ,I guess it goes to show that the Fam. stuff is full of darkness and brings anyone down .In other words it Stinks(reply to this comment)
from Qwerty
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 - 12:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
I am so glad I stumbled across this site! This particular article has been really helpful. I am not a child of the Children of God, but my girlfriend is, and to be quite honest, it can make for a difficult relationship some times. I guess what I'm looking for (in addition to basic knowledge found within this article) is a better understanding on what I can do to understand; to help; to be closer to; to not seem ignorant; to love her. Any suggestions? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
(reply to this comment)

From Ptewy
Sunday, February 16, 2003, 01:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
I hear what you're saying, but the honest truth is that even guys who grew up with these girls find it impossible to understand some of them. I've known girls both inside and outside of "The COG" and have found they can be equally hard to understand. There are always going to be differences with every person you get to know and everyone’s got their childhood story, some worse than others. The thing about girls from “The COG” is they often act SO contradictory that one can only assume their psyche is more about protecting a past hurt than about letting you get to know them.

I’ve noticed that many of them on one hand hold a large amount of disdain for any guy who has been raised in “ The COG” yet often choose to go out with guys who are abusive and chauvinistic. This would only be one of the reasons why I would probably never want to have one for a girlfriend. Another reason is because they are often not likely to be truthful. In trying so hard to protect themselves from destructive ideas which we were all taught as kids they will often hold guys (particularly SG boy’s but essentially guys in general) responsible for all their relationship or mental problems, regardless of the fact that many of the worst abusers in “The COG” are female.

I’d say if you can’t understand her it’s probably because she believes that as a guy all you want is sex, anything else you do or say is simply pretentious bullshit proving that you are of weak character. My suggestion is if you want to keep her just carry on as if all you want is sex, because after all when she decided to go out with you she had that opinion of you in mind already. If you don’t want to lower yourself, well, dump the bitch.
(reply to this comment)

From Pumpkin
Sunday, February 16, 2003, 12:17
(Agree/Disagree?)
I would have to disagree with this comment as it does not apply to me and I'm a female who grew up in the COG. In fact, I think that SG males (out of the Family of course) are some of the most understanding and compassionate men I've met! In fact, most of them frequent this site (this does not apply to MGP...lol). They understand my problems because they have had very similar experiences all leading back to our childhood in the COG. They make me laugh and also give me good advice on my present boyfriend who has never been in the COG.
On the other hand, I do find myself dating men that are abusive and controlling most of the time with drug and alcohol problems but this I can trace back to most of the men in my childhood were like this including my Dad. I think that is the attraction for me, that I'm so used to that kind of behavior I feel safe. Pretty sick and I'm working on that issue. But I haven't really dated any ex-SG men but I would like to someday. For now, I'm content to have them as friends.
On a lighter note, it would be refreshing to find a man who just wants sex! All the ones I've had can't keep up and usually have an ulterior motive like, they just want to go see a movie or go to dinner every once in a while, or they want to talk or snuggle, ect...lol(reply to this comment)

From Laughing
Sunday, February 16, 2003, 20:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
Pumpkin, where have you been all my life?(reply to this comment)

From Jules
Sunday, February 16, 2003, 11:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
This is a rather crude generalization and borderline trailer park stuff. It certainly seems to reflect much more on your own issues with women than anything else.(reply to this comment)

From pharmaboy..
Tuesday, February 18, 2003, 07:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
It may be a generalization, but this guy described spot on what I've found in almost all ex-COG girls I've known. His issues with chicks are obvious toward the last paragraph, otherwise he'd sound like a psychologist that had just finished a study on Ex-COG SGA females..

(reply to this comment)

From Jules
Tuesday, February 18, 2003, 08:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well I agree with you on that PB. The last paragraph was really what I was objecting to, especially considering the "bitch" happens to be my sister.

Having been through my share of dysfunctional and abusive relationships, I can say that for myself, I think the issue was low self-esteem. In most of the cases, my partner was the initiator, and after being put down most of my life, I was so amazed that someone found me loveable and desirable, that I didn't really consider whether or not the attraction was mutual or whether they were someone I actually wanted to be with.

It took a few months into it to realise that this really wasn't working for me and then I felt so guilty about hurting the other person that I tried to make sure that there would be no emotional attachments in the future and built the wall up a little higher every time.

I don't personally have any disdain for male SG exers. I totally agree with Pumpkin that there are some wonderful young men on this web site and I have a great deal of respect for them and what they have accomplished and overcome.(reply to this comment)

From pharmaboy..
Sunday, February 16, 2003, 10:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
Nicely written Pt! You've descibed ex-COG girls perfectly.(reply to this comment)

From Cultivator
Sunday, February 16, 2003, 17:17
(Agree/Disagree?)
There is a drive in some of us SGAs, IMO towards the more dark aggressive features in a person which were concealed in Family Behaviour. The rugged skeptic was villified and demonized in the family. To where wearing a smile and saying "I love you" meant what we saw it to mean in many cases: We say it because we want to portray ourselves as humble individuals who are close to the Lord, whatever that means. So, I can see how sometimes we prefer the "bad boy, or girl we know" to the "good boy/girl" who appears not to be able to distinguish his summers from his winters emotionally. I'll take the arogant bastard any day as a friend to the smily two face who looks like a pink mnm who thinks his/her shit doesn't stink, but who is merely conceiling skeletons piles of issues undealt.
(reply to this comment)

From Cultivator
Sunday, February 16, 2003, 17:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
As to the Flame... Gosh what to say.?Whoever checks that box must be the same person that signs all the junkmail offers without reading the fine print.

Might work, then again I don't know if I like the result. Trailer trash mentality flamers sometimes come up with interesting stuff. To think that one has to be coherent in all discussions is not a rationally creative way to look at writting IMO. Great philosophers like Descart, Darwin, and Freud, had a lot of interesting things to add to the world of ideas in spite of their personality traits, internal conflicts and passe views, some of which are known to contradict themselves. Just read the new testament and we've got "neverending acceptance" and "peace I leave with you", and on the other hand, "I have come to bring a sword, and the wrath of God abideth on him." I'd risk having hot headed blabberhead to having neatly designated packages. Where are these terms from sorority sister trend clubs? Then again, I don't have to read through all the comments and edit them or moderate them so I can't say what's best for this site. I just think we should be careful as to what we consider to be a "useful contribution." Truth is not always polite and sense not always common. The first is what I belive, the second is Voltaire. Who cares?(reply to this comment)

From Jules
Sunday, February 16, 2003, 23:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
Do I really have to explain this again? A discussion on issues or trends noted in exmember guys or girls is interesting, despite the tendency to generalizations. A statement like "dump the bitch" is a flame.

This is not "politically correct", but I'll say it anyways. The reverse side of the coin regarding moving away from the Family mindset when people leave is the fact that some people sometimes think they are entitled to basically behave like brats. Many people have siblings or former friends that have been abusive, stolen from them, leeched money or whatever they could get, acted completely irresponsibly, put their children in danger, etc.

My point is that no matter what the issues surrounding our anger or aggression, we are all in the same boat here. We are all struggling with the same issues. While we may not be responsible for the issues we face, having left the Family we are responsible and accountable for our own behaviour now. I believe that nothing justifies abusive behaviour towards our own peers. (reply to this comment)

From farmer
Saturday, October 25, 2003, 21:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
good, that you wrote, what I feel too, some of the wording on
the site is highly offensive, meaning people seem to me to
want to protecte themselves (aggression - also in words -
can be a form of selfprotection)...though I do understand why
people are angry about the past events etc, I do have hopes,
that everybody can feel happy enough in their lives to not
bark immediately at someone, who had no bad intentions, this
is adding injustice to another one...I remember someone saying
that anger stems from suffered injustice...being ignored for what you feel & think is right..up to being mistreated...
I´d say there is only a spiritual solution to that problem...
do people think so on this site???(reply to this comment)

From Monk
Monday, February 17, 2003, 01:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
Good to see some one else feels the same way about generalisations/ generalising analogies. : )

Tell me Jules, were the ex-boyfriends who dumped you “brats” as well?

Seeing as some people leave the family to become pimps & prostitutes, leaches in their own right or just plain deceitful scum, is it worse to be a "brat" who calls them for what they are? – I suppose so…
(reply to this comment)

From Jules
Monday, February 17, 2003, 08:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
I've never dated an exmember.
Is this an actual question or are you still trying to pick a fight?(reply to this comment)

From Monk
Tuesday, February 18, 2003, 01:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
Can’t be bothered picking a fight with you Jules.

I just wondered why it seemed you were calling Ptewy a “brat” for suggesting someone “dump the bitch”.

Could the reason be related to your own experience with previous guy-relationships.

(reply to this comment)

From Jules
Tuesday, February 18, 2003, 08:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
Whatever Monk. I've already explained my objections to flames in great detail.
I was calling people who demand that others indulge their temper tantrums and abusive behaviour brats.(reply to this comment)

From Monk
Wednesday, February 19, 2003, 01:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
Special note to the intended reader:

The following remark is not meant to be a flame, any comment (or portion of comment) which is construed by the reader to be “flame bait”, disconcerting, disquieting, incitive or plain obnoxious should be taken and swallowed with a proverbial “grain of salt” as no harm is intended by the writer. However as a general warning, the following should not be read by children (those below the relative consenting age of the country you belong to) or by adults who cry easily when told they’re overweight particularly in the thigh area, as this discourse may leave severe emotional scarring.

The question is what is abusive? Is flaming abusive? Flaming is low level dialogue much like plain nudity is a pretty low level fashion statement. Is nudity abusive? Am I being abused if I choose to walk down a nudist beach? We’re all adults here, right? It’s only two different forms of expression isn’t it? The only people who would be “abused” are ones who either chose unsuccessfully to compete with those flaming or those who object to it, the same as it would be for those who would object to nudists.

Example: An office worker would probably feel “abused” if ordered to strut around in a G’String & lap-dance all the executives. An exotic dancer would probably feel abused if she were told to cross her legs & stop playing sexual favours with the boss, citing an invasion of personal rights. This example is about work-related environments, but my experience is that people’s tolerance levels are usually the same outside of the workplace unless they have had no choice what their work environment is. IMO marginalised people often feel “abused” when they are outside of their own comfort “success” zones.

Can’t both sides disagree, debate and flame without alleging the other is abusing them. Is a flamer more of an abuser than a nudist? A nudist may have more outward self-confidence yet be intimidated or inept with words. A flamer may be better with words yet intimidated by nudity. Who’s to say what’s worse, the person who makes seclusive or condescending remarks or statements, who flaunts some sort of superior sexual status or the flamer who gives a blatant critical retort or judgement to or about the subject strutting itself in front of them? Are they both abusers or just different individuals, excelling in their own right?

Perhaps this is the wrong question to ask a nudist/ exhibitionist…(reply to this comment)

From Jules
Thursday, July 18, 2002, 01:06
(Agree/Disagree?)

No kidding it can be challenging! :-)

As a child of the Children of God, my advice is to just not make it that big a deal. Lots of people have messed up childhoods and they all deal in their own ways. When the word "cult" comes up, people don't really know how to react. My advice would be to deal with the abuse factor and ignore the "cult" issue. It's quite likely that your girlfriend has major issues regarding sex, trust and commitment. Don't take it personally, and don't exploit it.

If we are any indication, what she wants most of all is for someone to love her for who she really is. She won't be a "little girl" (psychologically) forever, but she may need someone to tell her they see her, really her, and love who she really is.

It's not really a guy thing, I know, but try to just listen and not give advice. Because you haven't experienced what she has, she probably won't accept your opinions anyway. What many of us need most of all is a place where we feel safe to just articulate our experiences and opinions, and to feel we will be accepted no matter what they are.

Don't treat her any differently than you would anyone else. Don't accept excuses, and please don't patronise. We hate that.

Respect who she is and what she has overcome. Cherish her, you may never meet anyone else who accepts you so fully.

My 2 cents on this issue, since you asked.

Jules(reply to this comment)

From Pam
Thursday, August 08, 2002, 00:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
If you olny knew it was me... I think that advise would have been slightly diferent(reply to this comment)

From Jules
Sunday, February 16, 2003, 11:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
:D since you are my sister, my advice to the poor guy would have been run like the dickens and don't look back.
(reply to this comment)

From sar
Tuesday, July 23, 2002, 18:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
jules the shrink! helping ex cult members adjust? (reply to this comment)

From neez
Wednesday, July 24, 2002, 04:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
Offering advice, to be taken or ignored at your discretion, is something a good friend would do..

Obviously you haven't had many, as you immediately think that trying to help someone out qualifies you as a 'shrink'

Get a life..(reply to this comment)

From sar
Saturday, July 27, 2002, 12:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
The do's and don'ts expressed ever so well, tend to give the impression that she knows more than the person she's speaking to about what they should do regarding the issue of discussion. (reply to this comment)

From Pam
Thursday, August 08, 2002, 00:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
that's pretty funny becuase she knows the person the advise was asked for more than the the person asking advise.(reply to this comment)

From sar
Friday, August 30, 2002, 21:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
that doesn't mean she knows what's best for 'the person' or what she's thinkin and what's goin through her mind. glad you had a laugh anyways pam. :D(reply to this comment)

From sar
Friday, August 30, 2002, 21:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
oh oops. :D, just saw what you posted on the 8th. hope you liked her 'advice'.(reply to this comment)

From 'riddler'
Thursday, July 18, 2002, 12:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
i just wanted to say that i thought this was very well expressed, and good advice all round..
congrats(reply to this comment)
from Human
Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 15:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm am a father of "ex-cog SGA's" and all I say is all the best of luck to them, they're getting on woth their eduacation and exploring the world andjust being wonderful. In the future maybe I'll write some on my experiences, but I'm off on a holiday...Have a nice summer!!!

(reply to this comment)
from wohali
Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 04:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sorry, the last comment got cut off at 1000 characters. I also didn't realize that "systemite" meant person OUTSIDE the cult...so congrats to you "new systemites" not "ex-systemites."

And in case it wasn't clear, it's because my partner was raised in "The Family" that they decided to teach her English and not Japanese. It's directly their fault that she can't function in Japanese society.
(reply to this comment)

From sar
Tuesday, July 23, 2002, 18:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
why do you feel you have to blame someone? a language is learnable(reply to this comment)

From DarkAngel
Tuesday, October 28, 2003, 09:50
(Agree/Disagree?)

Sar. I think you also need to know that although the Fam says that each home are responsible to take care of educating their kids actually it is far from the truth as I was regularly going out to support the home at night and day time hopping that the one responsible for my kids would do their part ,it actually never happened and I found out the sad way but when I try to say som.about it would get correction as not being understanding or beeing downright unloving .Have you been raised in the Fam. and in what type of situation??(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie
Friday, October 31, 2003, 06:20
(Agree/Disagree?)

DarkAngel,

If you were just 'hoping' that someone would be taking care of your kids then I can't say I'm surprised to find out that wasn't the case. I mean, if they were my kids I would have been doing a heck of a lot more than that! I would have been checking up on them at least every week - seeing what my kids had been learning, asking them what they'd been doing all day, etc.

Also, if this happened in the past 10 years or so you could just have up and moved to a different Home. You didn't need to accept it - that was your own choice!(reply to this comment)

From porceleindoll
Saturday, July 27, 2002, 19:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sara, a language may be learnable, but perhaps you don't quite get the problem here. There is a whole generation of Japanese x-members who can't speak their own language. Years ago, before Faithy came to Japan, they could, they only spoke Japanese, with their parents and other members of the Homes. When Faithy came, she rode her white horse and commanded that the kids all learn English since that was the language of the Family. At that point the kids picked up English, 'forgot' Japanese, and lost their communication skills with their parents. Thus successfully dividing the kids from their parents in communication as well as raising a generation of English speaking Japanese nationals in Japan.

Now, years later, these kids are no longer kids, are leaving the group, are nationals of this country, and cannot speak enough of their own language to find a proper job, or even go to a proper school, they are having a very difficult time fitting into the society around them, I would say harder than westerners cause we have the advantage of being American (or other) citizens and can migrate back to a country where we can at least speak the language and in the case of America, the culture is at least relatable to us.

I lived in Japan for close to 17 years, I can speak on a level of getting around, arguing with officials, and pretty much getting a basic point across, but I can't converse deep enough to carry a deep conversation about things I would like to express, nor can I speak well enough to get some of the basic jobs, McDonalds perhaps. So, you either must settle for English teaching (which is a hell of a lot of work), or hostessing, (pays well), construction, bartender, stripping. There may be other jobs as well, but these are the main ones, and you're quite screwed if you're a Japanese kid trying to make a living in your own country and not able to communicate well enough with your own people.

So yes, the blame lies very much on Faithy, the parents, and the Family for being so blindly stupid to believe that their kids would never leave, and never really need to know the language of the country.(reply to this comment)

From farmer
Saturday, October 25, 2003, 22:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree wholeheartedly on that one, when people go back, their children have a hard time adjusting, the children of my exmate
spoke neither fluent Italian nor German, all we spoke together was English (that is "our English-version"), & not even CLE-
publications could fix these language gaps, if you`re not a
native English speaker...but we just spoke English, because the family did so & not even when being out, did we do the right thing, to swith to either language, with the other one having to learn, we were so used to it...
On top of it, Italian is such a melodic, nice language,...
But it`s also hard work to be bi or multilingual...(reply to this comment)

From PompousJohn
Tuesday, February 18, 2003, 10:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm not trying to take anything away from the valid point that you are making, but I think it might be worthwhile to mention that Japanese is one of the most difficult languages in the world, I seem to recall reading an article about Japanese young people who learn english, usually by being placed in an English speaking environment, and apparently it is common for them to then "forget" Japanese, it's just too damn hard.
(reply to this comment)

From sar
Monday, July 29, 2002, 16:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
Everybody's gotta start somewhere. What's wrong with working at McDonalds or as a Bartender? (reply to this comment)

From violetspiral
Monday, September 16, 2002, 11:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yeah, bartender or McDonalds is fine to start out. But you don't learn much Japanese other than 'irasshaimase' (welcome), 'gochuumon no hou okimari deshou ka?'(is your order decided), and stuff that isn't exactly useful to starting a career (which might just be helpful in life). Also, learning Japanese isn't exactly the same as learning just any language; the Japanese grammar is the radical opposite of English and any other language, even Chinese doesn't do this. Taking the above sentence, gochuumon = order (formal way of speaking), no hou also makes the sentence formal, meaning you respect the person you're talking to (never to be used with people you aren't servicing), okimari = decide (also put in formal terms), deshou ka makes the sentence a question. So if translated directly to english it would be; 'order decided is?' (no pronouns in this case). Now wasn't that easy? We also have three types of writing, all of which are liable to come up in one phrase. All my sympathy to all those ex-members in Japan trying to make their way. xxx(reply to this comment)

From geo
Saturday, February 15, 2003, 20:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
or if your really really ridiculously good looking you can be a model(reply to this comment)

From neez
Tuesday, July 30, 2002, 04:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
just out of(slight) interest.. what do you do for a job Sar..??(reply to this comment)

From sar
Tuesday, July 30, 2002, 16:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
You're the second person to ask me on this site, neez. I'm the assistant to the MD for a small business, and i do clowning on weekends (yes, something I learned in the Fam). I would like to get a job in a pub, but haven't musard up the guts yet.(reply to this comment)

From neez
Wednesday, July 31, 2002, 04:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
So will you wear the clown outfit into your bartending job on a Saturday?

Slip a poster under each coaster..?(reply to this comment)

From sar
Wednesday, July 31, 2002, 13:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
No, I don't think I would. Not unless the bartending in clown uniform paid as well as the clowning.(reply to this comment)

From porceleindoll
Monday, July 29, 2002, 19:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
Nothing's wrong with being a bartender or working at McDonalds. What's wrong is when it's the only choice you have due to your upbringing in a cult that screwed up with your education and your language skills if you are a national of the country you live in and can't speak the language.(reply to this comment)

From Struggling
Monday, July 29, 2002, 05:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
I could'nt agree with you more nor could I have put it any better. I am one of those ex-member nationals who is struggling to make a decent life for myself. I've been trying to find ways to get an education here although I don't speak the language fluently. All my research has proved fruitless unless I have the resourses to pay for a $80000-$120000 a year tuition. I sure don't have the money for that! My family sure as hell can't afford that (they can hardly afford to put food on their own table). Yes, I also blame the Family for there stupidity, for thier lack of better judgement (to put it mildly). All my friends are in the same prediciment as me. If only the Family would of used an iota of whats left of thier wasted brains they would of seen this coming...and hopefully done something about it!! (somehow I doubt it though). (reply to this comment)

From sar
Friday, August 30, 2002, 22:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
blamin ppl ain't fun. try a little hard work and study. You might even like it ;)
by the way, ur exageration (slight as it may be) didn't give you much credibility.

(reply to this comment)

From JoeH
Saturday, August 31, 2002, 02:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
amen sar! hard work and forward momentum really is what it's all about! (not the holy ghost boogie or the hokie pokie as some have suggested)

That being said, I suspect most of the people on this site do have lives (******* excluded) and merely use this website to vent their rage. And let's face it, good issues are hard to come by. I'm sure they've earned theirs. (reply to this comment)

From Esquire
Monday, July 29, 2002, 14:47

from wohali
Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 04:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thanks for the background. I'm the partner of a 2nd generation ex-Family member, and I agree. Everyone who posts their experiences on here are survivors, plain and simple. They aren't victimizing themselves as an excuse for their own failures.

What they are trying to do is learn about the world into which they were thrust, after being shielded from it for their whole lives. They're trying to deprogram some of the more subtle issues that they have had drilled into their heads. They are slowly discovering what is and isn't right.

Imagine if you, for example, had been raised from birth thinking it was OK to murder a newborn child if it was of the wrong gender. ("The Family" doesn't advocate this.) You wouldn't think twice about doing it, and yet, given the generally agreed-upon morality of the rest of the world, you'd be taken to jail or worse. This sort of daily struggle is what many of these people run into, including my partner. It's easy enough to "get in touch" with the popular media and products shoved in your face every day, but it's infintely harder to evaluate and verify an entire set of moral ethics and beliefs once you're older.

My partner is a Japanese national who barely speaks, reads or writes Japanese natively. Imagine how hard it is on her. How would you feel being a citizen of a country where you can't read, write or speak well enough to even get a job at the local McDonalds? This website is a great place for ex-systemites. Keep up the good work!
(reply to this comment)

From sar
Tuesday, July 23, 2002, 18:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
The Fam has always advocated learning the language of both what the parents speak and of the country in which one is presiding. I'm not saying that the Fam is or was 'the place to be'. Just that past is past and we can't live on blaming all our problems on the way we were brought up. That was the choice of our parents, now we can make our own decisions and what we do or learn is up to us as individuals.(reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker
Wednesday, July 24, 2002, 10:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
I know children in the Family at present whose parents are two different non-english speaking nationalities (or in a couple of cases the same nationality) and the children speak neither langauge -- only English and perhaps the local language of thier current country of residence.

If that child wanted to leave the Family, they would have a difficult time communicating with their relatives, not to mention getting a job, until they learn to speak their mother tongue semi-fluently.(reply to this comment)

From sar
Saturday, July 27, 2002, 12:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
I've seen the same, but in the cases I've seen it's due to failure of the parents to teach the language, rather than because of a "Family" policy.
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From jwalker
Wednesday, September 11, 2002, 12:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
I've seen most young ex family members who speak more than one language, and consider it an asset in finding jobs, etc. If we blame the Family for certain nationals not knowing their language, should we praise the Family for multi/bilingualists???
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From sar
Thursday, October 10, 2002, 16:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
The family is made up of individuals. (reply to this comment)

From Albatross
Thursday, October 10, 2002, 16:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
So is the Mafia Sar.(reply to this comment)

From sar
Thursday, October 10, 2002, 16:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think every member of the mafia is responsible for their own actions.(reply to this comment)

From Albatross
Thursday, October 10, 2002, 17:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
They are Sar, and their capos are responsible for running a criminal organization. Even though the capos may not actually commit the crime, they do the time for being the bosses of the little enterprise.(reply to this comment)

From Elsie
Thursday, October 10, 2002, 17:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
There is this little difference: they did not have Mafia Letters to follow.(reply to this comment)

From JoeH
Thursday, October 10, 2002, 20:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
actually, I heard that before the Godfather movies they weren't all classy and italian-accent using, so maybe you could say those movies are like their Bible(reply to this comment)

From ophelia
Sunday, October 06, 2002, 07:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree JW, I was qualified for my job because of my ability to speak a second language. I think, somewhat along the lines of what sar said, that exfam young people's ability to speak an additional language is quite dependant on their parents' responsibility or lack thereof but also it seems to have something to do with where you were. Besides some of the countries in Europe where you didn’t need to speak the language because everyone there spoke English, most countries I lived in children learned the language. (reply to this comment)