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Getting Out : Inside Out
An Open Letter of Apology from Maria and Peter | from exfamily - Sunday, January 06, 2008
accessed 4015 times January 1, 2008
Dear Current and Former Second Generation Family members,
Although we have written a number of apologies in Letters published since 1993, we felt we could express these more personally if we published an apology specifically addressed to each of you, the second generation of the Family, whether you are still a member or have chosen another path for your life. Peter and I, as the Family's current leadership, want to personally apologize to you for anything negative or hurtful which may have happened to you during your youth or time in the Family. We acknowledge that from the latter part of the '70s to the mid-1980s the Family wasn't as safe an environment for children and young teens as it should have been. We sincerely apologize that you were not better protected when you were younger. We are very sorry if you had any untoward sexual experiences. We apologize if you were treated harshly in any manner or received excessive discipline at any time‚ or if any of you did not receive an adequate education.
We apologize to you, our former members, if you felt stigmatized upon leaving the Family, or if you didn't get all the help and support you felt you needed or wished you would have had. We regret any actions by anyone that were unloving, unkind, hurtful or harmful.
We acknowledge that some of Dad's writings misapplied the Law of Love to sexual contact between adults and minors, and as such were the direct cause of any misconduct that occurred at that time. This was rectified in 1986, when any sexual contact between adults and minors was banned.
We regret that this policy was not in place during the earlier years of the Family to protect minors from hurt or harm. Sadly, because such rules were not in place, some of you experienced inappropriate sexual contact with adults, and we acknowledge that abusive actions occurred. You should not have been exposed to such situations. It was wrong that it happened. We are deeply sorry for this. If any harmful occurrences of any kind happened to you at any point during your time in the Family, we are truly sorry.
Dad bears the responsibility of promoting sexually liberal doctrines, while not putting in place strict rules to protect minors from inappropriate behavior or harm. As the sole authority for deciding what was published at that time, he also bears responsibility for any harm which occurred because of these writings. In 1988‚ Dad renounced any and all literature which alluded to sexual contact with minors, and by 1994 this had been expurgated altogether from Family writings.
Clearly articulated and strict rules to protect minors from inappropriate sexual behavior are in place today and have been since 1986. In mid-1989 any such contact was made an excommunicable offense. We acknowledge that for the first year or two after this policy was enacted‚ in some instances leadership were lax regarding the length of the excommunications; however, these rules soon became very strict and remain so today.
Further measures were taken in the early '90s, to uphold the rights of children and to ensure that they would receive the best quality of care, education and upbringing possible. Since 1995, with the publishing of the Charter, clearly articulated rules and regulations have been in place to govern all aspects of Family life. The rights of children within the Family are clearly defined therein‚ as well as the rights and responsibilities of parents. Guidelines were put in place to ensure that any discipline of children was appropriate. Rules regarding education, leadership authority, medical decisions, etc., are codified, placing the ultimate authority and responsibility for all decisions pertaining to their minor children in the court of the parents. Our Charter also restated our zero tolerance policy regarding any form of abuse of minors. The Charter has been, and continues to be, the Family's governing document since 1995, and is adhered to. We are confident that these guidelines have served to ensure that Family Homes provide as safe an environment as possible for children and young people.
We wish we could change the past, but sadly that's not possible. As the Family's leadership of today, we ask your forgiveness. To any Family member or former Family member who suffered hurt or harm because of the effects of Dad's misapplication of the Law of Love, or mistreatment of any kind, by anyone, we are truly sorry and ask for your forgiveness.
We pray that you will accept our apologies as a sincere, heartfelt attempt to express our regret for any pain or unhappiness you experienced during your youth or time in the Family. We pray that this apology will help you find healing and closure.
Sincerely,
Maria and Peter |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from Opentosincerity
Sunday, March 30, 2008 - 18:57
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Reading this choked me up so much. I want to believe, but all the stuff about how evil us kids that have left are, just keeps me in the same broken hearted condition. It's taken this long to write something of an apology thats 20% closer to accepting that they too are wrong, not just David Berg? Were they not adults and part of the leadership when they went along with everything? What was that story that "you can remove the nails, but the scars remain". We that have left ARE moving on but the weight of the past feels so heavy at times. But this does not mean we are not getting up. Accusing us of being blood thirsty, please. I want them to admit that they have lost some mighty fine individuals because of their narrow minded damaging crap.
(reply to this comment)
| from lala
Sunday, March 30, 2008 - 18:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
(reply to this comment)
| from LovingJesus123
Sunday, March 23, 2008 - 16:52
 (Agree/Disagree?)
I might be a bit naive so excuse me. I see most of you come across quite negatively. Maria has issued an apology, isn't that enough???...you already have a murder, Angela Smith. What else do you guys want, I'm not excusing any sexual interaction with children as i believe nothing is more perverted. I was molested when i was 3 years of age and have had a pretty tough time (attempted suicide 3 times.), but since i found God these past 2 months, i have changed so much. I have researched both sides, The Family and obviously you guys. You seem to condone what Ricky has done, maybe not in so many words but how could anyone murder such a dear person like Angela???. The person who molested me i would never murder, he can get on with HIS life and i can get on with MINE. I hardly think about it, and before i ever found out what Pedophilia meant, i just didn't care. Obviously Mo was very disturbed during his latter years, and made some bad choices, but don't we all? Christianity is all about Forgiveness, and if we cant do that, does that make us any better than the perpetrators?
Regards,
BTW, I don't want any personal attacks. These are my opinions.
(reply to this comment)
|  From capulet
Tuesday, April 01, 2008, 15:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
1,2,3 the devil is after me
4,5,6 he´s always throwing sticks
Man you´re pretty disillusioned
I guess joining the family is better then suicide
though i would rather die then go back. The reason we´re "bitter" is
the fact that we have all suffered believe it or not.
You can´t just say I´m sorry and then every thing is ok
Why don´t we let all criminals, murderers and child abusers just apologize we would save a lot of money without jails. the family has polished its image but they´re not sorry for a thing they all believe they were doing the right thing and is the right way, even though they can´t do it now one day they will be in heaven without mans laws and it will like good old times. read the compilation of abuse featured on this site and
believe me it´s about ten percent of the abuse that went on(reply to this comment) |
| | From Big Sister
Monday, March 24, 2008, 20:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
I am concerned that there is a child molester out there that is walking around! I suppose it's great that you can forgive a criminal but how will you explain your actions to his next victim? What social consequence does this criminal face? How about yourself? Do you make amends when you hurt someone or do you merely ask them to forgive you and believe that's enough?
These are my questions.(reply to this comment) |
| | From LovingJesus123
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 09:15
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hi Big Sister,
I understand that concern as well, but many people already know what he has done. He has been punished enough, i do have to say one thing, he himself was young at the time. i was 3, he was nearing his teenage years, this dosent excuse it i know but i sincerely believe he regrets it and wouldn't do it again. When i have hurt someone in the past, i make amends AND ask for forgiveness.
Sincerely,
LovingJesus123(reply to this comment) |
| | From Big Sister
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 11:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wow, if he was a kid himself there was likely another molester victimizing him! I hope he's in jail!
Your belief that this child's regret and promise to reform is not really relevant since his behavior indicates he has deeply serious problems. You were both children, so the responsibility for protecting you and treating your molester would fall to your parents and his parents.
Please tell me that all 4 parents were involved in repairing the damage done here?(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From steam
Monday, March 24, 2008, 10:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
I am a bit confused as to what your background is from your comment. You say you have researched both sides implying that you have never been in the group. Then you rather nonchalantly dismiss abuse. Then you act as though you have some first hand knowledge of Angela.
I am impressed by the eloquence of the replies from those such as cheeks, smashingrl, and rainy, which showed passion and reasoned restraint. I admit I was not so inclined due to the one fact that convinced me you were either deliberately misleading as to your background, or attempting to be deliberately offensive. That fact is that you chose the sign in name lovingjesus123 which shows either a knowledge of some bizzare inner doctrines that have hurt many young people, and a desire to be in your face about it. Or maybe a lack of knowledge and lack of desire to seriously undertake your "research", which is not that great either. Or maybe multiple posibilities some I did not list.
However on balance it indicates either intentional hurtfulness or extreme naivete and lack of attempt to understand those you are communicating with (or you understand all to well as a current member and are just here to try to cause pain). There may be good reasons for your actions I have not thought of, and if so I am ready for an explanation.(reply to this comment) |
| | From LovingJesus123
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 09:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hello Steam,
I'am not trying to be offensive just trying to put across my points. I chose the name Lovingjesus123 because only recently i truly accepted Jesus as my savior. Since i have prayed, many things i have prayed have came true. So religion is a great help, to anyone i believe. I also understand some of you may have had bad experiences, and for that i applaud you that you have come this far.
Regards,
LovingJesus123
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From LovingJesus123
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 12:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hello Steam and Cheeks,
I would like to add i don't agree with everything The Family has done, they have made mistakes, but them mistakes are been repented by continual Charity Work etc. I also believe that its not forcefully imposed to imagine Jesus having intercourse with one's self. It's a personal decision and a personal experience.
Regards,
LovingJesus123
BTW, I'm going off topic a little, but i feel as if everyone who posts negative comments hasn't tried to find themselves spiritually and forgive those who have hurt them. I have, it wasn't easy but i did it thanks to the Lord.
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" (John 8:7)(reply to this comment) |
| | From smashingrrl
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 20:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
It's my favorite, extra-special, super-duper, bullshit when some fucking douche tries to quote the bible to me and the rest of us. It takes a special kind of fuckwit to assume copying and pasting a verse from google will seal their case. Yup. Certainly gives me a warm and fuzy.
As for your idiotic statements concerning what is or was a like, totally personal decision and those pesky minor incidents; go fuck yourself. You are, in this (although likely not just this) matter, a fucking retard trying to discuss quantum physics. Don't. It's sad. It's infuriating. It's really just fucking pathetic. Define a minor incident. I would hope you're refering to the innumerable incidents with minors. You're not though are you? No. That's why I no longer doubt you're a fucking member or maybe just fucking a family member. No one with any semblence of rational thought would dismiss so callously our torture as "minor". No human left with a conscience would so blithely excuse the fucking, undeniable evil that is the family with their so-called missionary work. You know what dipshit? I spend the first 14 years of my life what you believe is a missionary organization. I live in too many homes and countries to count. Once. Just once. One fucking time in those fourteen years did I even witness an incident that could be described as charity. ONCE. A few other kids and I sang at an orphanage. That's it. But your jesus has saved you. And now the voices in your head have told you the best way to spread his love is to fuck with some people who've done nothing to you. How cute. So answer me this: All those things you prayed for and received; why was that? Does jesus love you more than he did me or any other person on this site? Is that why he answers you and never answered us? Your sociopathic jesus just allow us to be tortured throughout our childhoods to serve some greater purpose? Oh, did we not fuck him well enough? Is that what happened? Okey-dokey.
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| | | | | From cheeks
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 13:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
I am very happy where I am spiritually, like I said before I am a Christian. I have found contentment with my life I am able to have those memories of what happened to me and they no longer hurt me. Your case is very different from ours you were molested by a child. And while you may suffer from difficult memories they cannot compare to ours. You were not beaten and made to work from sunup to sundown and often beyond as a child. Hopefully the people who raised you did not farm you out a child to other peoples homes to be their slave, you were clothed and when you were sick you were taken to a doctor. You went to school and when you were angry or rebellious you were not prayed over and made to fast to cast out your demons.
The Family could do their supposed good works until the day they die and it would not wash away what they did to us. It would not make it better and it would not make it go away. Those supposed good works that they do are few and far between. I lived in those home I grew up in that Family and I know exactly what kind of good works they do and don't do. Let me tell you it is not much.
How dare you an outsider come here and tell me how much forgiveness I need to have. How dare you come and judge me on what you feel Christianity should be. You need to read that Bible a bit more, what about the parable about the righteous man and the sinner. God be merciful to me a sinner. I have not heard the Family say that. I have not heard a shred of repentance coming out of their mouths. Instead they have damned us and claimed we are full of demons. I say let them that are without sin cast the first stone, because Zerby is a rotted sepulcher full of dead men's bones. She may be white on the outside but they are rotted through and through.(reply to this comment) |
| | From LovingJesus123
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 14:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hi Cheeks,
Thanks for the...mini attack you imposed upon me. How dare an outside???...well, if you want "outsiders" to learn, they have to come here. Please leave more constructive criticism when attacking me. It must be hard, i understand. But life is hard, in fact, its dreadful sometimes, but we should be glad of out existence. I can judge, I can give my views. It's a right, its called freedom of speech. And i don't condone what The Family may have done, and obviously child abuse was evident in some minor cases or communes. I only started becoming religious last month so yes i have alot to learn in the bible. But the basics are simple, Love Thy Neighbor, Forgive those who trespass against us. Christianity is all about Forgiveness.
I don't think it matters what age my abuser was, it dosent change the fact it still happened to me. Not only that, but you portray yourself as the only victim, what about the thousands of African children that DIE everyday. Do you ever consider them, or live in self pity?
I hope you become less angry towards me as I'am only in my learning stages of religion and what it's all about, Forgiveness etc. I think if Angela did abuse Ricky, not that any evidence is available to support these claims. Her name has been tarnished forever, her mother, brother etc. will never know the truth because Ricky took it with him to the grave. I feel for Angela and seem to have a bond because she has came to me, in my dreams, Signs. I pray to god, then Angela...whenever i pray to Angela, most of the time it comes true. The same with God, it comes true. I really feel that Angela is my guardian angel. She was an angel on earth, she must be a saint in Heaven.
Sincerely,
LovingJesus123
(reply to this comment) |
| | From exfamily
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 15:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hello.
If you aren't a Family member, you sure sound like one. Stop trying to tell us what to do. I'm glad that you've been able to make peace with your situation, but it's not a "one size fits all". You didn't grow up in the cult. I understand you were abused, but you cannot assume that you know everyone else's situation and history. Have you grown up in an isolated environment, being systematically abused sexually, physically, and mentally? Have you had to watch your siblings and other kids you loved suffer, and be powerless to stop it?
As for Angela, if you think she is your guardian angel then you are truly deluded. There is, incidentally, evidence of possible abuse by Angela on Ricky: http://xfamily.org/index.php/Story_of_Davidito#Sex_with_Sue_.28Angela_Smith.29.2C_who_he_murdered_in_2005(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From LovingJesus123
Sunday, March 30, 2008, 14:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hey Moving On Members,
I would also like to add i'am not a part of The Family, BUT i'am in contact with some very nice people at the moment (no details for you guys!) from The Family. I have Mo Letters, Music, Posters etc. which are very informative, and as I said, i have visited both sides of the story, but decided with The Family, they are certainly less hateful than many of you guys here. I'am also proud to say i discovered not only Jesus, but Jeremy Spencer, PTL. Such a fantastic musician, bought all his albums, and all fantastic.
As i said, both sides of the story, Not Without My Sister is a good book, bought it for £3. happy it was so cheap, not worth much more as most of it seems made up, how can any of these girls Celeste etc. remember every thought and conversation from the age of 3???...I'm bewildered.
Anyway, Cya,
LJ123(reply to this comment) |
| | From trauma and memory
Monday, March 31, 2008, 04:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
Release of stress hormones during aversive or traumatic events strengthens memory for the traumatizing experience.
Moreover, as psychologists have known since the days of
Ebbinghaus, repetition strengthens memory, it does not
weaken it. The more often a type of event occurs, whether it is
flying on airplanes, eating breakfast, or being sexually
abused, the more likely the person is to remember having
experienced that type of event. The details of any particular
airplane trip, breakfast, or abuse episode may meld with oth-
ers over time, making it difficult to disaggregate many highly
similar instances of the same kind of event. However, repeti-
tion itself strengthens memory for the class of event. Hence,
the more a person is traumatized, the more likely he or she is to
remember having been traumatized, even though details of
any particular event may become blurred with others.
http://home.earthlink.net/~hopefull/about.htm
Kristina was reading fluently by three yrs old as well as memorizing Mo quotes, verses, chapters of the bible and songs, daily. Not only that, she started writing her story/testimony/affidavits (time line, events, memories of abuse) at thirteen years old, only a year after leaving the group.
Kristina also gave evidence at fourteen in the UK custody case.
quote from the the Judge
'Time and time again, i was impressed with the wealth of detail which came pouring out in a way which id not suggest either invention or the recounting of the experience of others. There were too many occasions when she was given the opportunity to embellish facts to the disadvantage of The Family and refrained from doing so. ' (Lord Justice Ward) (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From So, you say you’ve seen one picture “No Big Deal”
Sunday, March 30, 2008, 19:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, aren’t you glade you missed the rest of them. Perhaps, if you had seen all the pictures in the Davidito Book and other previous family publications that were since burned, you’d get the picture. Mind you, this was a book teaching parents how to raise their children. A lot of us were around when the big “purge” happened where most of the illegal pubs were burned and other inappropriate drawings colored over with black ink. I know because I helped destroy the evidence...all the while thinking I was doing the right thing.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Samuel
Sunday, March 30, 2008, 17:17
(Agree/Disagree?)
BWWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
So the lack of photographic proof means it didn't happen, eh? I guess that means Christopher Columbus didn't land in the New World, then. How many pedophiles do you think actually take pictures of themselves abusing children? Would be nice, and would make law enforcement's job much easier, but it just doesn't happen. So go back and listen to your music from Jeremy Spencer, and don't believe what the high court of England said about him, because they're just bitter apostates. right? Wait, no, they're flatlanders! Can't trust those systemites.
Sorry to see you so bewildered, so let me clear things up for you. While it may not be normal for one to remember thoughts and conversation from the age of 3, it does happen, especially when there are traumatic experiences. To claim that the book is made up is crazy, especially upon realizing that certain facts from the book have also been held up in the British Isles case. Then there is the question of WHY they would make something up. Since you started this, I will ask you: Why would they make these allegations up? What do they profit from it? Do you realize that money from the book sales (those who buy it firsthand)is going to a charity that they have established? Perhaps you should read up some before you post any further on our site because what you are writing borders on defamation of character. (Perhaps the cult is teaching you well?)
Now, I have had disagreements with an author of the book but I will NOT stand back and watch any abuse victim be the target of unsubstantiated allegations of miscoduct! EOD!
As for the MO Letters, Music, and Posters that are so "informative", it is not what they are telling you that is important, but what they are NOT telling you.
I don't think many people on here at hateful. Bitter, maybe. And bitterness is sometimes directed at the wrong people. It happens! Grow up, be a man, and learn to deal with it! Also keep in mind that we know much more about The Family and their history than you do. And considering that so much of the lit in question was burned in the late 80's and early 90's, I'm afraid it's going to be that way until you decide to research it for yourself. Should you do that, www.xfamily.org would be a good place to start (please note that there is another website called www.exfamily.org)
That is all.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From LovingJesus123
Sunday, March 30, 2008, 17:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
I didn't say all of the book was made up, to the contrary. I know some of it is fact full, i saw a part of that video of Celeste dancing, and that was disturbing for a first timer to watch, i saw that on Cult Killer by the way. I have much respect for Celeste, but i still believe she may have got some things muddled up, maybe not purposely. I'm reading bits of it now, and the language she uses in one of the early paragraphs when she is around 5 is stupid, what 5 year old says "thats excellent dad"??? damn, i didn't use language like that.
You must be psychic, i' m listening to Jeremy Spencer right now!!! Wish i could listen to that song he did, "Too Young To Love?".
As i said, I'm not trying to humanize anything they have done in the past, but what about SARA DAVIDITO??? She was one of Ricky's ALLEGED abusers, why didnt he kill her??? ANSWER: Angela was easy, who NEVER hurt him, but he could get his point across by killing her and saying, i had a bad child hood. boo hoo. so do we all, no need to MURDER someone is cold blood. Angela will be in heaven, Ricky???...in heaven, but damn well regretting leaving behind his wife, friends and family, Aunt etc. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From steam
Tuesday, April 01, 2008, 05:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Don't worry Cassy. That is exactly a "Family" approach to issues. Read an entire book that has so many issues that should be thought through, then find one line that might be slightly misstated (not in it's point) and make the whole thing about that. That is the only line that 99.999% of all members will ever hear if that was the line the cult deemed most "questionable". Which goes to show just how accurate your story is.(reply to this comment) |
| | From rainy
Monday, March 31, 2008, 12:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
Don't worry about LJ for even a minute. I do remember full conversations, and plenty of them, from the age of two onwards. I have crystal clear memories of my early childhood. I do not find it strange or hard to believe in the slightest. The book rang very true to me, because it triggered so many vague and distant memories. Things I'd heard but not understood as a little child suddenly became clear.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jailbird
Sunday, March 30, 2008, 22:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm coming in a little late on this whole nonsense. You have the right to think what you want, but your positions are infuriating me.
Celeste didn't get a damn thing muddled in terms of her writing.
There are reasons why Rick didn't go after Sara D, even thought he wanted to. The woman is lucky, that's all I will say, as are a few other people who rick was talked down from taking out that fateful nite.
ANGELA RAPED RICK, when he was a little boy, -- repeatedly. You uniformed apologist for child rapists.
Angela, in my view, was a poor target, one with no children etc., she wasn't the ringleader of the abuse like Zerby or Sara D, but she still went along with the abuse, and participated in the rape of Rick and others, while in Berg's household.
I relate to what it is like to suffer the pain of forced separation from a sister, to have a parent inmplicated in abuse, etc., Rick was in a tremendous amount of pain. He took extraordinary means to shed light on the deception and criminality he was born into, and for that, he is one of my heroes.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From afflick
Monday, March 31, 2008, 08:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
If you condone ANY form of child abuse, I nominate that you are banned for this site. Condoning sexual abuse of children is extremely inappropriate and in some places illegal. It is completely irrelevant whatever an adults' motivation is in sexually touching a minor. Sexual abuse is a crime. Please leave this site immediately. Admin, can you help?(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From JohnnieWalker
Monday, March 31, 2008, 09:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
And so what if she thought that? Is a murderer less culpable because they thought they were doing good? A crime is a crime regardless of intention.
You may not be condoning child abuse, per se, but you are certainly showing more empathy towards the perpetrator than the victim.
Do you understand that psychological damage from abuse is a very real thing? Do you understand that everyone reacts differently to stress, abuse and trauma? Do you understand that just because YOU don't think something is harmful, it doesn't make it so? And lastly, do you comprehend just how callous and arrogant you sound?(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Jailbird
Monday, March 31, 2008, 11:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm proud that I have a tremendous amount of sympathy for both of them.
They both lost their lives.
I don't justify, I understand, which is more painful than trying to justify.
None of it would have happened if it weren't for the Mo, who you're supporting, Zerby, his mother and the others who perpetuated years of abuse.
That's what happens when you rape little children for years, and rape their little friends, tie them up and beat them, make them strip for a perverted audience etc. ...
Who are the, "People like YOU?", you're referring to. I never asked Rick to do anything. I'm very sad that he and another human being are dead.
Anyhow, you've made your opinions known. I'm uncomfortable with the process of muzzling people who have unpopular views, very reminiscent of what I experienced in the cult and what you will once you decide to support the organized crime syndicate, and become one of it's lackeys, the primary condition of membership being that you pay them, and believe that Berg, a one of the most notorious incestuous child rapists in modern history, is a prophet. Hmm. ...
I think people should stop engaging you. I very much doubt that you are who you say you are. I hope you and those you love don't suffer the horrific pain, loss, anger and sadness, that I and those I love, know, and care about have as the result of your association with the cult.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From JohnnieWalker
Monday, March 31, 2008, 10:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
Let's get one thing straight: Ricky murdered a defenseless elderly woman. No one is defending that. The fact that you assume I would is highly insulting.
It is equally insulting that you would equate me, a complete stranger to you (I will momentarily assume), with the type of character who promotes violence as solution.
As usual, you're changing the subject when it gets uncomfortable for you. Let's stick to it, shall we? The subject is Sara, the person pictured performing sex acts on 3-year-old Rick. You believe that those acts are not criminal because they were not intended to harm. You believe that since you feel the adult-child sexual encounters you experienced didn't harm you, they cannot have been harmful to Rick. You believe that is not acceptable to kill a person, yet it is acceptable to steal a child's future by exposing them to sex with adults at an early age.
Or are we to understand your defense of a documented child molester to mean otherwise?(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From LovingJesus123
Monday, March 31, 2008, 18:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
You seem to be so hostile, how true for a US Marine or whatever you are. Best go to Iraq and get your head blown off, god shall punish you for such comments. True soldiers don't talk like that to a 16 yr old boy. I came here to this site not to defend any pedophile acts, but i am defending ANGELA SMITH who was used and brutally murdered. Just thinking what went through her mind, it makes me cry to think about Angela, such a sweet person who has came to me in Prophecies and Dreams. But I know she is in a better place, Heaven...while you will be rotting in hell with every other single bigot. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From shikaka
Wednesday, April 02, 2008, 12:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
And, unfortunately for you, according to your drunken prophet's ramblings in 'The Helmet", Shaka is firmly attached to Jeebus by the unbreakable cord that was drilled into his skull by the heavenly armorer who fitted his helmet of salvation. So you can look forward to a very unpleasant eternity with Shaka as a next-door neighbor. Apparently, since I recieved Jeebus in my left ventricle when I was 2 or 3 years old, I also will be seeing you in heaven. I look forward to bashing you over the head with the shield of faith, and sodomising you with the sword of the spirit.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From LovingJesus123*
Wednesday, April 02, 2008, 22:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
Please, stop with this blasphemy already. Repent and change your ways. Otherwise it will be too late and Jesus will no longer be able to save your soul and fill you up with his delicious, life-giving seeds.
As for sandwiching me, oh stop it! Jesus has already promised me that sandwich would be reserved for Angela and himself, while we're riding out to destroy the anti-christ forces. My ultimate endtime fantasy!
Sings:
We'll ride across the sky,
With Jesus behind me doggie style,
The world in that hour,
Will watch me deflowered,
Shocked my asshole is still tight.....(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Shaka
Tuesday, April 01, 2008, 04:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
HAH! Obviously you don't know many military personnel cause most "true" soldiers (including myself) would beat your sorry ass into the ground for defending known child molestors. Not to mention claiming to get spirit messages from them (seriously, do you listen to yourself or do you kinda drift in and out?). As for Iraq, been there, done that and I'm still alive and kicking and shouting a great big FUCK YOU, FUCK ANGELA SMITH AND FUCK YOUR LEG HUMPING GAAWWDDDD!!! (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From neez
Monday, March 31, 2008, 23:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
If this person is 16, then they are definately still in TF. Has anyone ever heard a normal 16yr old talk like that("PTL, Prophecies, and Angela came to me in a freakin dream")?
Not to mention the fact that a 16yr old "friend" of TF would probably never have access to(or care about) all the insider info that he seems to have.
He is with out a doubt a member of the cult, and more then likely an FGA the way he talks about J Spencer and Angela so fondly(remembering the good old days). He seems to be getting his jollies out of being 'the lone nut' so just ignore him already.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Samuel
Monday, March 31, 2008, 19:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
LovingJesus123:
I promised at the beginning you would recieve no personal attacks from me. That was before you started attacking and insulting other participants on they site that Jules has set up for us. It is our space.
That you can enjoy Jeremy Spencer's music after learning that he is a child moelster boggles my mind. To admit that on this site, and then claim to have respect for Celeste, who you should know now was one of her abusers makes me wonder about your ability to reason and think logically. I feel like pinching you to see if you are really awake and paying attention. Shaka, on the other hand, actually did it- not exactly in a nice way, but what can you expect? For one thing, he's a Marine, and has probably seen more and had more experience in his life than you have. Surely you know that this is the internet, and people sometimes feel free to say things on here that they wouldn't say to your face, but have a sense of humor. No one wants to see you get hit by a train, okay? It was a joke!
I don't know what to make of your idea that Angela Smith has come to you in prophecies and dreams. But I can tell you what The Bible says about it. While the general consensus of Christians is that it is possible to talk to the dead (Saul called up the spirit of Samuel, and the first thing Samuel did was ask him why he had disturbed him by calling his spirit up) it is also believed that this should not be done. Deuteronomy 18:10-11 says "Let no one be found among you who...is a medium, or a spiritist, or who consults the dead." It is an abomination.
We are not bigots. Shaka has said to me before that he has no problem with me going to church, and would not hate someone simply for being a Christian. Finally, I don't know how everything is going to turn out in the wash and which doctrinal interpretation is true (as there are many regarding salvation) but I can tell you if it is true that Shaka is going to Hell, bragging about it as you seem to be be doing would not be the Christain thing to do. I decided long ago that it is in God's hands.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From DeeJay
Monday, March 31, 2008, 21:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
Samuel, I understand your method of trying to stay civil, and I admire your constraint and hospitality to this point, but OMG! THIS HAS GOT TO FUCKING STOP! Are you serious? I feel like such an idiot. I had honestly entertained the idea that you were genuine and were posing genuine questions. I think most, myself included, have been shown a fair amount of diplomacy when dealing with you and replying to your posts. I had even felt concern, but this is ridiculous. You misled everyone with your original statements in the hopes of gaining our confidance. Basically, YOU’RE A FUCKING POSER AND A LIAR! And I, for one, was stupid enough to fall for it.
Judging from your comments, you obviously have gone for their bait, hook, line and sinker and attach absolutely no value nor respect to anything that we might say. You came here already convinced that we were a bunch of bitter, full of hatred liars. Your mission here was not to raise questions, but because you harbored the gigantic misnomer that you could come here and change everybody’s minds. That somehow we’d all be astounded at your wisdom and allow you to enlighten us as to how things “really are”. I’ll explain why you’ve failed.
Your logic is sporadic and disjointed. Your only line at arriving to any of your conclusions seems to be that you are emotionally attached to the answers you have been fed. You show no respect for facts other than to say you don’t agree. Your reason for disagreeing? BECAUSE IN YOUR OPINION IT’S NOT TRUE? What kind of a bullshit line is that?
Why is it that when confronted with evidence, such as those provided by individuals like JohnnieWalker, or real stories such as mine, you conveniently choose to ignore them and run off to other threads? I AM LIVING PROOF THAT THE CULT IS AN EVIL, ABUSIVE LIE! Debate that and kindly show me why I’m wrong. Or why anyone else here is wrong for that matter. Or have you ignored me thus far exactly because of that. BECAUSE YOU DON’T KNOW AND ALL YOUR CLAIMS, SUPPOSITIONS AND POSITIONS ARE TOTALLY UNSUBSTANTIATED?
Seriously, after the way you’ve been attacking members on this sight with your ridiculous notions and cheeseball attempts at wit, I say FUCK DIPLOMACY. YOU’RE ON! You come here, spout off very misinformed facts and accusations, such as the enormously preposterous accusation that somehow we all pressured Ricky to do it. That any abuse he/we suffered was justified because – IT WAS DONE IN LOVE? Hello? You are a highly delusional and enormously misguided individual.
YOU THINK YOU CAN COME IN HERE AND LECTURE US ABOUT THE CULT? WHAT A FUCKING RETARD. I WAS GETTING SPANKED AND THEN GOOSED BY MY MOM’ S PERVERT “FRIENDS”, SITTING AROUND ON MY TENTH BIRTHDAY WONDERING WHY JESUS HADN’T COME THE FUCK BACK LIKE GRANDPA SAID, ALL BEFORE YOU WERE EVEN A HORNBALL IMPULSE IN THE BACK OF YOUR DADDY’S HEAD!
The fact of the matter is YOU DON’T KNOW SHIT ABOUT THE FAMILY AND YOU DON’T KNOW SHIT ABOUT LIFE! So kindly fuck off. I already left the cult WHY DO I HAVE TO COME HERE AND HEAR YOU SPOUTING OUT THE SAME DIMWITTED, FUCKFACED, ASS CHAIN, GENERIC, SHIT LACED, JIZZ SEASONED, MORONIC, UNORIGINAL, DEMEANING, EGOCENTRIC, CUNT JUICE SOILED, CHILD MOLESTING AND CONDONING, JACKASS, GERBIL INFECTED, DOGGIE SPAWNED AND PARENTED CRAP CAKES that I’ve been forcefed my whole life. Take your bogus opinions and warped reality back to the only person who will listen, Jesus. And FYI, the only reason he listens is cause he WANTS YOU TO FUCKING SWALLOW.
BTW, LJ, I don’t want any personal attacks. This is just my FUCKING OPINION!
On second thought, scratch that, COME AND GET SOME if you got the fucking balls to stand up and LEGITIMATELY PROVE to me I’m wrong. If you can, then I will admit the error of my ways, repent and I take Jesus’ cock back up my ass after having my teeth removed so I can gum you.
LIKE I SAID, I’M DONE WITH DIPLOMACY. EITHER YOU SHOW YOUR SHIT CAN HOLD UP WHEN YOU’RE ATTACKING US, OR GET THE FUCK LOST.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From cheeks
Monday, March 31, 2008, 19:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
You don't belong here, this is a site for Second Generation members or people who are honestly looking for the truth. You are neither. Do not speak for God you certainly do not know who he will punish for what. You don't know Angela Smith, she does not come to you in Prophecies and she does not come to you in dreams. And if you genuinely think she does you need to ask your parent to please take you to a shrink and put you on some serious heavy duty medication as you are clearly delusional.
Do not disrespect our solders while I may not agree with the war. I respect them for what they do, they are our heroes who put their lives on the line everyday for whiney little shits like you. When you grow up you will never be able to fill their shoes instead you will be hiding behind the skirt of Angela in your delusional little world.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Also
Monday, March 31, 2008, 19:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
By using trigger words like “Loving Jesus” and insulted people integrity, I’m sure you were expecting a negative reaction. You could always troll a family site. I’m sure they will be a lot “sweeter” and just love what you have to say. I’ll be happy to provide you a link if you so desire. See ya.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Samuel
Tuesday, April 01, 2008, 04:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
I am willing to link to Jeremy Spencer music on this site if it your listening to it wil prevent you from writing all these illogical comments with witt that would make a high school freshman blush.
http://www.thefamily.org/music/index2.php3?id=4 (Try the "International ILY song", reminded me of visits to the CM home in Italy.)
Please leave! If you're considering joining The Family, please don't. We can given you plenty of good reason not to do that. If you're a troll, you shouldn't be here to begin with! Maybe you want to stay here as long as you can because you know when you leave you're going to get yelled at for missing devotions(Anything you put before God, he'll take away!), but we don't want trolls here. So please, no more stupid comments. (reply to this comment) |
| | From some systemite
Monday, March 31, 2008, 20:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
I prefer “system” music--always have, even if it got me in trouble. Same goes for system books, movies etc. Please go, away you are making me tired.
Like I said I’ll be happy to provide you with a family site and you can ask them about their “fantastic” Loving Jesus Tapes. You might as well join the cult. If you are a man you’ll get to sing “fill me with your seeds Jesus” as you fuck your wife, lover or your “sharing” partner while thinking about Jesus and pretending you’re a woman.
Hope you are happy I’m seriously, tired of playing your games! (reply to this comment) |
| | From Samuel
Sunday, March 30, 2008, 18:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
OR...
Maybe it's because he knew were Angela lived??? And was hoping she could help him reach his Mom??? See how smart I look when I finish each sentence with three question marks???
In case you haven't read what the Judgment of Lord Justice Ward had to say about Jeremy Spencer, you can find it here. http://xfamily.org/index.php/Jeremy_Spencer
Friends, my apologise if this brings back bad memories, and I know this is a bit "in your face", but I feel the only way to fight ignorance of this level is to place the truth where it cannot be ignored. Here goes...
"
THE ORAL EVIDENCE OF CHILD / ADULT ABUSE
8. MS. Her father is Jeremy Spencer of Music with Meaning. Her mother is Dawn, a European Shepherd. … She said in her affidavit:
"From my earliest memories until my time in India, sexual activity pervaded The Family. Instances that stand out in my mind are as follows:-
"My mother and my father frequently had sexual intercourse and performed oral sex with each other and with other people in the same room as us children, regardless of whether we were awake or asleep. I distinctly remember my father having sexual intercourse with Faithy Berg when we lived in a caravan in Greece. I was around four years old at the time."
At the age of 6 she had to use both hands to masturbate Timothy in his 20's or 30's, ex-Vietnam veteran. At the same age she had to "help her father [Jeremy Spencer] out" which meant caressing him and mutual masturbation. From the age of 7 her step father made her masturbate him. She later told Mary Malay about her step father but not about her father because she liked him: "at least," she said, "he did not beat me".
End of quote."
"THE LEADERS' INVOLVEMENT IN SEXUAL ABUSE
8. Jeremy Spencer
His own daughter with understandable reluctance complained that he abused her as I find he did. He also abused MB. Music with Meaning was a particularly corrupt and corrupting organisation. He played a central part in it.
End of quote".
But wait! There's more!
" Jeremy Spencer worked with Dad on Life with Grandpa as the artist. He lived in the small, detached room in the courtyard that was built for the maid. On our dates he would play a tape of saxophone music. The routine was by now was familiar – undress, pray, kiss and then give him a hand job. Jeremy would try to masturbate me but it just ended up feeling raw and hurting. I would move position so that he would rub a different spot, but I never understood why he – and the other men – kept on rubbing and rubbing. If I said I did not enjoy it they would accuse me of being prudish or proud. I just pretended to have an orgasm to get them to stop. "
So what's with this "excommunication" business that The Family rattles on about now? They didn't excommunicate Jeremy, they made him a leader!
And my argument would not be complete without the testimony from Jeremy's wife, Fiona.
"Where we live at MWM we do have a lot of fellowship, a lot of sharing, & the children are very fortunate to be able to partake of this. As I said before, it's easy for our little ones to share & stay with one another, even make love if they can, they're all small and they can manage it. But when they get 10, 11, 12, & on, our children like to share with the adults. I found some adults in our Family are very helpful, very loving, & very patient towards our children, & will take time to really help them & love them & even teach them. In fact, I haven't really heard of a bad experience in our Family with our children sharing. I have talked a lot with the children about my own testimony and I treat them as adults, because, although it was a long time ago when I was their age, 12-13, I would have loved to have been in the situation we are now. I feel that almost all of our Family, the brethren are really understanding, very gentle, very loving, & there is no need to fear for the children, & they should be really free to love and share with the other brethren just as we do. When they have sperm, when they start their period, that's the testing time, how much do you trust the Lord, how much do you believe His promises, His blessings, etc? Being worried like our parents, the older generation are watching us, their grandparents; or not caring, only wanting to flow with the spirit, with this love, helping the children to be really free, & helping them to bring forth fruit!"
Read: It's okay and loving to have sex with children, just make sure they're not making sperm or starting their periods (unless of course you have the faith for it), because then we might have to answer to the authorities, and that could destroy the Lord's work.
I am hoping you will reconsider joining The Family, as there are some many better organizations out there that you could volunteer with who welcome accountability and government oversight, pay their dues, and do not have a history of advocating child sex abuse.(reply to this comment) |
| | From LovingJesus123
Sunday, March 30, 2008, 18:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hello Samuel,
I think I'm going to reply to this more positively than other posts i have made tonight, like some of you, i get angry when posting if something we defend gets trashed etc. No hard feeling ;)
Okay, time to talk about The Family. As i have only started my correspondence with them, everything does seem tightly done. Security measures i guess. But they seem the best to join at the moment, certainly not as bad as Shirley Phelps's church. Catholics have history of abusing little boys, but they still have members etc. Just because their was ONE rotten apple, dosent mean the whole batch were. I'm sure not everyone condoned abuse in The Family. Angela left didn't she???...I don't know why, but maybe she got the stigma of been a member, just like i'am, although I'm not as of yet.
Jeremy Spencer, good subject. But i don't believe certain allegations unless they have been tested in a court of law, sorry :-) (reply to this comment) |
| | From DeeJay
Sunday, March 30, 2008, 21:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm sorry LJ123, whatever choice you make is yours alone to make. I have only to say, I sincerely believe your decision to join this cult is something that you will live to regret one day.
For all the "negativity" that you accuse us of, please take the time to contemplate the driving factors behind them. I think it's clear you already consider yourself a member and therefore are defensive when it's being attacked. Please understand. Many of us did too. I spent most of my life "thinking" that Mo was God's chosen prophet, and I was God's chosen endtime child of the end. I too got defensive when our centers were raided by the police and we received "persecution" at the "hands of the world/heathen." I too thought I was answering God's highest calling, and as his vessels, the leaders couldn't possibly be lying to me. I FOUND OUT THE HARD WAY! IT'S ALL A LIE AND YOU WILL HAVE NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT IN THE END!
I will admit that it irks me a bit to have someone telling me that everything I went through growing up and everything I suffered didn't really happen. Please understand, that's what you're doing everything you say abuse never happened.
Do I need to put a human face on this? This isn't statistics we're talking about here. This is my LIFE! Why do you patronize us by insisting that what we've seen and witnessed with our own two eyes isn't real?
I'm a 27 year old male. I'm from South East Asia. I was born in the "cult" and spent the first 19 years of my life "serving" in it. I've told no-one except my girlfriend/fiancee about my past. WHY WOULD I BE LYING? WHAT DO I HAVE TO GAIN FROM MAKING THINGS UP? There's not even sympathy gotten for me by doing so. - I've been purposedly lied to and manipulated by those charged to take care of me. I've watched 10's of couples having intercourse in front of me. I've watched a video of my mom stripping. At 13 I was lined up with other boys my age and told to relate my masterbating experiences. I was beaten and punished with physical labor when I refused. I've been coerced into sex with women as old as my mother, all in the name of Jesus and the Family. I ended up doing all those things because I seriously believed I was pleasing god by obeying my leaders, who were simply covering their own asses.
Please don't tell me I just made up the first 19 years of my life. I'm a real person, and this is real life. Parts of your independent thinking may be comprimised or biased due to whatever "truth" it is you think you see. I am trying to be civil here, but I have 3 points.
First, please don't belittle the abuse and pain I suffered growing up.
Secondly, please don't think the cult's changed and they would never do that again, they have never truly changed (even since the original disbanding of the "children of god"), and they never will. They will lie, cheat and manipulate you in any way that they can to get what they want from you. In the end you will be tossed out in a hurry with some excuse about how you are no longer in touch with the "young in spirit" and left with nothing (after 20 years in, my parents left, with my 9 brothers and sisters, and received nothing. Not a cent. They are middle-aged and struggling to raise their kids, who by the way, have no formal education). I'VE SEEN AND EXPERIENCED IT FIRSTHAND TIME AND TIME AGAIN! Why would I lie?
Thirdly, I truly believe that one day you will see past the smoke-screens of your "finding religion", and come to see the cult and all it represents for everything that it is. As they would put it - A wolf in sheep's clothing. Most of us have already seen the underbelly. We were deceived, we are angry and bitter and I for one, earnestly beg you to step back and "objective" consider the reality of what is happening to you.(reply to this comment) |
| | From DeeJay
Sunday, March 30, 2008, 22:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
As a footnote. Despite the fact that many of my sexual experiences growing up have been more than alittle abnormal. I have never considered myself a sexual abuse victim. The abuse, in my opinion, is that I was knowingly lied to by the only people I knew and trusted. I was deliberately misled and fed the line in order to keep me kowtowing to the organization which took no responsibility for me in the end. I was never allowed to talk to anyone outside the cult, and so was never able to get another perspective on things other than the one I was fed. They knew this. It was a deliberate and intentional manipulation of my family and my life. NEVER AGAIN.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Samuel
Sunday, March 30, 2008, 20:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
Oh dear! Well, I'd say they're about the same. One believes that God hates fags, while the other believes that you can avoid a homosexual relationship with Jesus simply by imaging yourself having a vagina. They both beleive that the deaths in Iraq are God's judgment on America, but only one is stupid and disrespectful enough to show up at military funerals with those messages on signs. They actually do have something in common,though, in that they both like to twist scripture to the max until it says what they want. I mean, when did God ever say in The Bible that he was going to let the Iraqi resistance place IED's in the streets of Iraq if we allowed same sex marriage? Did God ever suggets that you should imagine yourself having a sexual relationship with him? What about these blood sucking Vandari? Please give scriptural reference for these things. And while you can use text from the books of the Prophets, please assure that the context is correct (ex. that the nations mentioned still exist under those names, and that you are not misusing a prophecy that was addressed to Israel or Judah.)
There would be no need for such security measures if everything was legitimate. My Dad just started a job as a Youth Pastor at a local church. You know what they did today after the service? They had a Business Meeting. The church members gathered and elected the Deacons and a Treasurer. They had a full accounting of all the funds that had been recieved during the past year, where the money went, the financial status of the church, all that. See, the government says they're required to if they want to keep their church status. You will never find anything of that sort in The Family. Decisions are made by your "shepherds" (Pray for some good ones, because I believe every person reading this has had at least one experience with a bad shepherd).
And yes, the Catholic church have a history of abusing little boys, but the difference is that the church never officially advocated sexual abuse of children. David Berg on the other hand, has been quoted as saying the following:
"[T]here's nothing in the world at all wrong with sex as long as it's practiced in love, whatever it is or whoever it's with, no matter who or what age or what relative or what manner!"
Source: The Devil Hates Sex!—But God Loves It!, DFO 999, 1980-05-20
Now in this next one, Berg has died and gone to Heaven. He makes what we used to call a "Spirit Trip" back to Earth and visits his mistress Maria, only to find out that Techi (who was eight years old at the time) is in bed with her. Since Berg was now a spirit or angel, Man's laws no longer applied, so naturally the first thing he does is hop in bed and have sex with his mistress and granddaughter (who I will repeat was eight). Oh, and they published it for kids too!
http://xfamily.org/index.php/Image:Heavens_Children_pg392_pic.jpg
Click on that, because you certainly won't see it in The Family's homes. They realized how damning it was, and had that burned.
" AT FIRST I AM A LITTLE CONCERNED ABOUT WHO MARIA MIGHT BE SLEEPING WITH, & that I might be somewhat affected by someone else’s presence in the bed, even as we make love in her dreams. But lo & behold, I am to discover that it is Techi who is sleeping with Maria! Instead of competition, here are both of my two lovely lovers in bed together!
67. THEN I TURN TO TECHI, & SHE TOO IS DREAMING OF ME—her dear old Grandpa-lover! She had always said that when she grew up she only wanted to marry me & have my children! Of course, as there are no longer any such thing as Man’s legalistic laws against incest in the loving Kingdom of God, everyone loves everyone & is completely free in His all-encompassing Love! So I make wonderful, sweet, precious love to my now beautiful teenaged Techi! She seems thrilled & delighted with having this wonderful love-dream with Grandpa, excited & satisfied that she has some time, even in her dreams, with her long-beloved Grandpa! "
I know this is heavy stuff friends, but I feel that since this guy has not yet joined The Family, I am compelled to give him all the information I can about their past before he joins.
And that is what seperates what happened in The Family from what happened in the Catholic Church.
And by the way, God loves all of us, Homosexuals and everyone included. Whether or not any relationship, heterosexual or otherwise, is wrong is a private matter between that person and God.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From cassy
Monday, March 31, 2008, 11:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
Unless you've actually spoken to Techi face to face, then you don't know and should not accept a 'statement' in her name. We all wrote similar statements when in the group because we were asked to, to 'defend the faith.' I met and lived with Techi so I do know that she had the same experiences of us all. If you doubt my story, I'd be very happy to speak with you on the phone, face to face, or on skype or hotmail chat. Can you say the same for Techi? Why is the leadership hiding her away? That is what truly should make you suspicious.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From cheeks
Monday, March 31, 2008, 09:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think this thread is one of the most difficult things I have read on Moving on. It is one thing when the Family denies it happened to us but having an outsider who is really just a baby swallow all their crap and now wants to join. I am torn into believing perhaps she is the real deal and perhaps she is really just a member and is toying with us.
If you are really a teenager planing to join I urge you to rethink your position. We are not all out here just to make noise this really happened to us, we grew up in there and we know what we are talking about. We know what we saw and we know what we read. Do you honestly think they would provide you with true information? If you want to do good join the Red Cross or Doctors with out Borders. There are so many legitimate charities where you can go and be hands on.
On the other hand if you are a member or former member go screw yourself. We know what happened to us and we know what we read and saw and no matter how much you come here and antagonize us we will not change on that issue. You think Angela is some kind of saint well, you have a very odd take on life. There is no doubt for those of us who have read the Dito book. Even if there is not enough proof for you that she was personally molesting Ricky you certainly have enough proof that she stood by and allowed Sara to. So screw you asshole get off our damn site and go to hell.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From afflick
Monday, March 31, 2008, 10:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree. The allegations LJ123 has expounded upon:
1) that we as SGA who left ASKED Ricky go out and Kill; 2) that LJ123 knows what Techi said on the subject--someone who, BTW, supports her son on The Family's money--3) that LJ has seen the Davidito Book and doesn't think its so bad
all of this hints to someone who has had lots of contact with The Family, not someone who just met them. If LJ123 had just met The Family, they would be on a steady diet of Activated Magazines right now. And something tells me Activated does not reprint photos of adults molesting 2 year old Ricky.
Not to mention the extremely condonsending and arrogant attitude as manifesting by postings. Methinks I smell a rat.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From cheeks
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 15:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
It is one thing if you want to come here and learn it is another to come here and criticize us for where we are spiritually and emotionally. Child abuse was not evident in some minor cases it was the rule of thumb. We were shipped off to commune homes when we were eleven and twelve and made to work every day seven days a week. We did not have a childhood instead we cooked, cleaned, took care of kids and washed laundry on massive scales. We also had to go from house to house, door to door, begging for money.
And hell yes it makes a difference being molested by a child and being molested by and adult. I was molested by both. What about the thousand of dying children in Africa does that make my pain less? Does it mean that what happened to me does not count. These things were being done in the name of God.
And you obviously have not done your homework on Angela there are pictures of her in the Dito book naked with Ricky. Seeing as you are a new Christian Christ said 'No man cometh unto the Father but by me.' It certainly does not say no man cometh unto the Father but by Angela. Christianity is not just about forgiveness it is also about repentance and right now the Family has none.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From DeeJay
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 21:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
If that was your stated purpose, then you were obviously misleading with your first. It's understandable that if you've just found religion and are now "honeymooning" with Jesus and whatever "cult" doctrines you've obvious come to embrace, you will be emotionally protective, and I'm sorry to say, but biased.
You say you have researched both sides, but if this is your first time on this site, you obviously haven't. You seem thoroughly intoxicated (reply to this comment) |
| | From DeeJay
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 21:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
(Sorry everyone, something fritzed on my computer.)
LJ123, you seem thoroughly intoxicated with their side and are convinced that they have apologised and repented of their wrongdoings, which you also think were "minor". Let me be clear. They have done no such thing. Read the article, they take no responsiblity. "Sorry if you felt hurt. (as if somehow we are the ones ultimately to blame)" is a very far cry from, "Sorry I hurt you."
If your perogative here is to convince us that not "EVERYTHING" about the family is bad, I'm afraid to point out that you are in no position to talk. I spent 19 years in the cult which you say you have been researching for a month, so I am in a much better position to speak about this than you are. I think I speak for the majority here when I say that the reason we speak so negatively about everything is that we see through it. We've heard the cult bullshit our whole lives and we are not longer accepting the facade as real. This supposed apology is a which wasn't even delivered to US is an insulting patronization of the suffering we've experienced at their hands.
BTW, who said anything about Christian? I'm not a Christian. Christianity may be about forgiveness, but I sure as hell ain't. That however, should not automatically be construed as showing that we haven't. Many have tried to forget, most are moving on with their lives in spite of what has happened. I do not in any way mean to belittle what happened to you, but I WAS DECEIVED BY EVERYONE I KNEW FOR 19 YEARS. I WAS IMPRISONED AND FORCED TO LIVE A LIFE I DIDN'T WANT. I WAS TOLD THAT NOT SHOWING GOD'S LOVE TO OTHERS BY FUCKING THEM MEANT THAT GOD WOULD WITHHOLD HIS BLESSINGS FROM ME. I WAS TOLD THAT GOD WOULD PUNISH ME FOR WANTING A SONY WALKMAN AND SOME T-SHIRTS THAT FIT. I WAS TOLD THAT NOT ENVISIONING MYSELF AS A GIRL SO I COULD TAKE JESUS' DICK WOULD RESULT IN MY FOREVER BEING CONFINED TO THE FARTHER ENDS OF HEAVEN AND EVERLASTING SHAME AND CONTEMPT. I WAS PURPOSEDLY DECEIVED AND ABUSED NOT BY ONE PERSON, BUT BY EVERYONE I HAD EVERYONE KNOWN AND TRUSTED!!! Why should it be considered aggressive that I would like a decent apology and for this to stop happening to others? That I would like them to stop ruining and destroying lives and give little helpless children the choices that I was never afforded. If that's was just is justice, then I don't think it's asking too much. Fuck forgiveness. Jesus said to turn the other cheek. I did. I'm done with it. Now it's their turn.
It's not enough that I had it better than some children in Africa. I'm not black, I didn't live in Africa and my parents shouldn't have been poor. This constant attempt to make people think they had it good because some people have it worse is ridiculous, worn out and pathetic. Someone gets beaten by a mob looking for random victims, crosses the road, gets hit by a drunk driver who runs, is denied medical care because someone stole his identity and returns home to find his house burned down because the gas company did a shitty job on the installation. Is he supposed to feel good because someone else didn't have a house to begin with? That's bullshit.
The fact of the matter is that my life should have been much better. I should have had a decent education. I should have had friends and parents who were honestly concerned about my well-being and future, not my spiritual growth as defined by a drunk, delusional pervert. Some kids in Africa may have it worse, but let's try to be at least alittle bit objective here and find the average. The average kid has parents. The average kid gets schooling. The average kid can choose not to eat the rotten leftovers from yesterdays lunch which were rotten yesterday. The average kid is allowed to talk to other kids his/her age without fear of getting the devil "spanked" out of him/her later. I could go on and on.......
I am not the only victim, but I am still a victim AND WE STILL DESERVE RECOGNITION regardless of whether or not we are the only ones. Then of course, since you've already chosen Angela as your "guardian" angel, why am I trying to convince you. You've already made up your mind.
The family is an evil, manipulating cult that destroys lives and refuses to apologise or face the consequences. All that "good" that you say they do, my 19 years inside can tell you this, NEVER HAPPENS. I've personally put together countless brochures filled with lies of all the good deeds we were supposedly doing. Then asked people for food to contribute to feed poor people and eating it all ourselves. I have never seen a cent contributed anywhere except their own pockets. Dig alittle deeper. Please.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From DeeJay
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 21:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
If that was your stated purpose, then you were obviously misleading with your first. It's understandable that if you've just found religion and are now "honeymooning" with Jesus and whatever "cult" doctrines you've obvious come to embrace, you will be emotionally protective, and I'm sorry to say, but biased.
You say you have researched both sides, but if this is your first time on this site, you obviously haven't. (reply to this comment) |
| | From DeeJay
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 21:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
If that was your stated purpose, then you were obviously misleading with your first. It's understandable that if you've just found religion and are now "honeymooning" with Jesus and whatever "cult" doctrines you've obvious come to embrace, you will be emotionally protective, and I'm sorry to say, but biased.
You say you have researched both sides, but if this is your first time on this site, you (reply to this comment) |
| | From DeeJay
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 21:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
If that was your stated purpose, then you were obviously misleading with your first. It's understandable that if you've just found religion and are now "honeymooning" with Jesus and whatever "cult" doctrines you've obvious come to embrace, you will be emotionally protective, and I'm sorry to say, but biased.
You say you have researched both sides, but if this is your first time on this site, (reply to this comment) |
| | From DeeJay
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 21:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
If that was your stated purpose, then you were obviously misleading with your first. It's understandable that if you've just found religion and are now "honeymooning" with Jesus and whatever "cult" doctrines you've obvious come to embrace, you will be emotionally protective, and I'm sorry to say, but biased.
You say you have researched both sides, but if this is your first time on this (reply to this comment) |
| | From DeeJay
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 21:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
If that was your stated purpose, then you were obviously misleading with your first. It's understandable that if you've just found religion and are now "honeymooning" with Jesus and whatever "cult" doctrines you've obvious come to embrace, you will be emotionally protective, and I'm sorry to say, but biased.
You say you have researched both sides, but if this is your first time on (reply to this comment) |
| | From DeeJay
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 21:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
If that was your stated purpose, then you were obviously misleading with your first. It's understandable that if you've just found religion and are now "honeymooning" with Jesus and whatever "cult" doctrines you've obvious come to embrace, you will be emotionally protective, and I'm sorry to say, but biased.
You say you have researched both sides, but if this is your first time (reply to this comment) |
| | From DeeJay
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 21:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
If that was your stated purpose, then you were obviously misleading with your first. It's understandable that if you've just found religion and are now "honeymooning" with Jesus and whatever "cult" doctrines you've obvious come to embrace, you will be emotionally protective, and I'm sorry to say, but biased.
You say you have researched both sides, but if this is (reply to this comment) |
| | From DeeJay
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 21:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
If that was your stated purpose, then you were obviously misleading with your first. It's understandable that if you've just found religion and are now "honeymooning" with Jesus and whatever "cult" doctrines you've obvious come to embrace, you will be emotionally protective, and I'm sorry to say, but biased.
You say you have researched both sides, but if this (reply to this comment) |
| | From DeeJay
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 21:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
If that was your stated purpose, then you were obviously misleading with your first. It's understandable that if you've just found religion and are now "honeymooning" with Jesus and whatever "cult" doctrines you've obvious come to embrace, you will be emotionally protective, and I'm sorry to say, but biased.
You say you have researched both sides, but if (reply to this comment) |
| | From DeeJay
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 21:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
If that was your stated purpose, then you were obviously misleading with your first. It's understandable that if you've just found religion and are now "honeymooning" with Jesus and whatever "cult" doctrines you've obvious come to embrace, you will be emotionally protective, and I'm sorry to say, but biased.
You say you have researched both (reply to this comment) |
| | From DeeJay
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 21:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
If that was your stated purpose, then you were obviously misleading with your first. It's understandable that if you've just found religion and are now "honeymooning" with Jesus and whatever "cult" doctrines you've obvious come to embrace, you will be emotionally protective, and I'm sorry to say, but biased.
You say you have researched (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From steam
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 15:40
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ok miss LJ123. After reading your response to my question you seemed to make it sound as if you were not aware of the LJ doctrine, and the implications choosing that name had in context with the cult.
But you were very fast to say what the cult does with the doctrine. I have two guesses on what you are all about. The more charitable is that you just "found Jesus" through the cult, and the people who helped you seemed real nice and have given you the cult responses.
Or two, you are just a cult member masqerading and being a jerk, and not living up to what you supposedly believe, including obeying Zerby and companies rules about not coming around here. Tell me you have never met a family member, and if you do say that who lead you to Christ. Because if not the group at least 99% of the christian world rejects the group so who would be giving you this sweetness and light version? Sorry but there are intelligent people on this site who can put two and two together. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Samuel
Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 12:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
Mistakes? MISTAKES?! They screwed up my generation! And what do you know about their charity work? And is their some kind of quota or formula that a group that has advocated child abuse can use to determine when "them mistakes" have been repented, and they can stop doing Chairty work?
Do you know how much of the money The Family raises actually goes to charity work? Do you the precentage of goods that they actually purchase and give away to needy causes, compared to the amount thas has already been donated as is simply redistributed by The Family's charity?
And just so you know, when you publish literature for children as young as 14 that says they should imagine Jesus having intercourse with them with they masturbate or make love, it really doesn't matter if it is forcefully imposed or not. It's called porn, and it is illegal to distribute it to children, regardless of the manner in which it is imposed.
Finally, about the verse that you used above, Jesus also told the woman in this story to "Go and sin no more." In other words, he told her to repent. Maria and Peter are yet to repent for anything they did.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From smashingrrl
Sunday, March 23, 2008, 22:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
There's really not much to add to what cheeks has already said. Forgiveness is a beautiful thing. It's admirable that you are able to forgive. Many, if not most of us, have found it within ourselves to forgive. I've long ago forgiven my parents. More importantly, I and many others have been able to forgive ourselves. The family has, most certainly, forgiven themselves and their leaders both alive and dead. Then again, maybe the haven't. Doesn't forgiveness require the recognition of a wrongful act? If they can't acknowledge their history and their present; they cannot recognize the need for forgiveness. I cannot speak for anyone but me. My struggles have nothing to do with whether or not I'm able to forgive. It has never actually occured to me to forgive the family, their members, or any of their leaders. I do not wait for their apologies. I do not expect nor do I even want an apology. If bears suddenly found themselves using indoor facilities and the family did offer us a meaningful, sincere, eloquent apology; it would make not one difference in my life. If I actually could comprehend forgiving the family or their leaders; what difference would that make? Would I be able to sleep through the night? Would I be instantly capable of true intimacy? Would that provide me an education? Would I then have childhood memories of picnics, block parties, school, books, recess, teachers, field trips, music, movies, television, toys, matching socks and shoes, nurishment, unspoiled food, mac n cheese, loving parents, cousins, friends, grandparents, candy, Captain Crunch, cartoons, school bullies, soccer, baseball, frisbee, a dog, a present at christmas, stockings, snowball fights, sandcastles, oblivion about sex before the age of 2, a bicycle, heroes, my first date, my first kiss, my first fuck in the backseat of a car, the ability to realize that blacks and jews don't rule the world and don't cause every problem before the age of seventeen, the knowledge that abuse is actually wrong and I won't burn in hell for hating it, medical care, parents who loved one another and didn't fuck others in my presence, a back or legs or ass without scars from beatings, dental care, being able to fall ill without anyone questioning my spirituality, a night without coldsweats and tears, a connection with those around me instead of alienation, peace? Would I have all of this if I forgave? No. Not one thing listed nor any other can be provided by forgiveness. Not one thing listed nor any other can be provided by an apology. And finally, Christianity (in a form unadulturated by our particular cult-leaders and any other denominational doctrine) may, in fact be all about forgiveness. Maybe it's not. But if you're under the very mistaken impression that preaching to any one of us about the true meaning of Christianity will reach a single one of us or cause one of us to reconsider; you haven't spent enough time in your "research" to form any opinion whatsoever. One half-hour perusing this site or speaking to any one of us would have rid you of that fantasy. I do not mean this as an attack on you. I want you to understand that comments such as yours are more hurtful to someone like me than any apology from the family. You have read a page or two. Though I doubt it; you may have spent a year trying to understand. And you still think telling me that we all make some bad choices and forgiveness is the key is the contribution you need to make. Yes. I make some bad choices. I've shoplifted. I've assaulted someone. I forgot someone's name while fucking. I've given my phone number out while I had a girlfriend. I drive too fast. These are bad choices. The family didn't make bad choices. Okay, the spoon-ban was a bad choice. So they make those too. The family destroyed countless lives. The family is solely responsible for the deaths of tortured children grown into tortured adults who saw no hope and no chance for peace but through a bullet, rope, pills, or law of gravity. What Ricky did was indefensible. It is not, however, to anyone who saw, lived, truly studied, or experienced the family's evil impossible to sympathize with or understand. We do not condone what he did. We understand it. That is not word play. That is simply the truth. You do not understand this. Maybe you cannot. Either way, please either give us the courtesy of trying to understand or go about your life without the delusion that your words are helpful or welcome. While I do believe it was not your intent to insult and patronize me or any other member or this site; that is the only thing you have done. Please don't do so again.(reply to this comment) |
| | From cheeks
Sunday, March 23, 2008, 21:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
This is not a personal attack this is just me speaking my mind to you and other outsiders who come here and don't really understand where we are coming from.
It is easy to watch a thirty minute special on tv and come here for an hour and skim through what we have written in the past three months or so. It is so much more difficult to understand what our life was really like. The isolation, degradation, humiliation that we faced every day growing up. I am sorry that you were molested as a child it is a horrific thing to go through, the memories that pop up in your mind at odd times, and occasional fear that IT whatever IT is, is coming to get you again.
Ricky was our corner stone growing up, we grew up with the Dito book, as the adults tried to find ways to implement it in our daily lives, the only thing I can say is you have to have read the book to understand what we are talking about. There is nothing I can say that could ever give it justice. The things they put him through as a child as an experiment in child rearing is simply horrific.
We don't condone what he did but we understand it. We understand where he came from, we understand the anger and the pain that he was going through that led him to his terrible deed.
You say that Berg was disturbed in his latter years. The reality of it is Berg was always very disturbed. In short he was a freak with a god complex. It was Zerby who ran the show for years. Berg in the end had little to do with it. I too am a Christian and while Christ had forgiveness he was no pushover. Read the passage about the millstone. The Family is not a group that goes around and does missionary work the Family is a parasite that lives off the misery of others promising that god will help them. Another thing is you say a dear person like Angela, did you personally know her? If not how can you say she was a dear person? She watched Ricky and others be molested for years, that to me is not a dear person.
Before this gets any longer and turns into it's own article, I am going to end it by saying unless you were there you can not possibly understand. Unless you lived through what we lived through there are not enough articles you can read that will give you perspective. But I do have some suggestions. Start with the My Lonnie Davis story and read what was done to Jules and many others myself included at the Jumbo. Read everything on the first page of this site, read the testimonials of what was done to us in the name of God and then come back here and read the apology. Sorry doesn't fix it as my mom uses to say.(reply to this comment) |
| | From rainy
Sunday, March 23, 2008, 17:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
What happened to you was terrible. It was inexcusable and a crime. I understand that perhaps your method of dealing with it is forgiveness. But if it were not for vocal activists such as many of the original members of this site fighting for the children still in the cult, the stuff that happened to you would still be happening to young children in the cult worldwide. These "Negative" people who refuse to accept this fake "apology" are the ones who forced the family to account for its actions. They are the ones who provided the motivation for the Family to retract its earlier policies and to put safeguards in place. The young people raising their own children in the cult now who insist it is a safe and caring place to grow up in owe the ability to say that to the people who suffered horrific abuse, escaped, and then turned around to try and do something about it.
They have actually saved The Family's ass.
And then to receive an "apology" like the one above is a slap in the face. It's an insult. They are only issuing this apology because they have to say something. This does not come anywhere close to acknowledging the atrocities that occurred under Zerby and Kelly's guidance and sanction. Let her go into Mene's case, and in the same minute detail in which she documented Mene's individual transgressions of free thought, let her outline her own cruelty, jealousy, power-mongering, torture, bullying, and other crimes. Let her acknowledge each piece of what happened to that girl in her own house and under her direction. Then let her give all of WS's money in compensation and turn herself in to the authorities. Let her go to prison as she once imprisoned so many "determined teens'.
That would be an apology.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Samuel
Sunday, March 23, 2008, 17:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
You will recieve no personal attacks from me.
If you think someone on this site condones what Ricky did, please name them. I for one, do not. I can understand why he did it (Angela was one his abusers, by the way), but I do not condone violence. There are ways to seek justice legally. Some of us were already working on that, and he wanted justice he could have worked in conjunction with them. That is, suing The Family, suing abusers, pressing charges against leadership for the crimes that they commited (sexual abuse of children was one of many).
Now, here is why we come across negatively. Because the Family is trying to claim that this was just David Berg's doing. They're trying to to take the easy way out and wahs their hands of it. Yes, God forgives, and we should forgive, but one is is truly repentent will bring themselves forward for punishment. Maria and Peter should be in jail! And maybe some of you might disagree with me but in my opinion, Angela Smith should not be dead. She should be in jail for child abuse. What Maria and Peter have tried to do is claim (depending on which GN you read) 1. that there was no abuse OR 2. that any abuse was Berg's responsibility and they (his mistress and right hand man) had nothing to do with it. This does not coincide with has been written in the past, and ordered burned.
Let me ask you, Have you ever seen "The Davidito Book"? Do you know what it says? How is it even possible that after printing this book and sending it out worldwide, that maria and Peter didn't know what was happening. I guess Berg and Sara must have written it, done the layout, printed it, made the mailing slips, and stuffed the envelopes all by themselves, huh?
They are lying! And if someone lies to you in an apology, it is a clear sign that they are not repentent. You can forgive, that's up to you, but when it comes time to remember Ricky, or write an affidavit for a court trial, or track Maria and Peter down so they can face justice, I would like to be involved if possible. (reply to this comment) |
| | from Peter
Thursday, March 06, 2008 - 00:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
Representatives of The Family International have refused to confirm or deny the authenticity of this "open letter."
However, xFamily.org has obtained the 3-part December 2007 GN series, The Family’s History, Policies, and Beliefs Regarding Sex, which contains the text of the letter.
More information, including the documents in question and the email exchange between the xFamily editors and representatives of The Family International can be found at the following links.
http://xfamily.org/index.php/An_Open_Letter_of_Apology_from_Maria_and_Peter
http://xfamily.org/index.php/The_Family%E2%80%99s_History%2C_Policies%2C_and_Beliefs_Regarding_Sex
(reply to this comment)
| from estee
Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 06:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
i do not get this... i do not get this piece of writing. it says nothing, and it feels like nothing, how generic.
(reply to this comment)
| From josh(PI)
Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 10:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
I completely agree, all in all I found this whole apology rather frivolous and lacking in weight. and as far as rectifying the situation by setting up hard and fast rules goes, I left in 06, within my last year in the family on two separate occasions the charter/rules that they set up failed miserably. Once when I had to pull a crazed FGA off of my younger sibling to keep him from breaking my brother’s teeth, for which I of course got three months of probation for violent behavior. And again when a close friend of mine was molested by her teen shepherd, the only punishment they could come up with was him being taken off the jett/teen board, and him having a self imposed fast from movie and outside books. now I’m not saying that the sole reason for his lacks punishment was because his mom was an x shepherd or even because she was sleeping with Adam. But is it safe to say that might have had something to do with it? By the way how are you doing ester, you still living in Thailand? The is hiedes younger bro.(reply to this comment) |
| | from anon_chick
Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 15:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
THAT'S ALL THEY CAN SAY?!!
What about the ones of us who were diagnosed with post-traumatic stress syndrome? What about the mental torture, the feelings of worthlessness cuz most of us weren't some "Shepherd's" kid and thus we were singled out for the worst? What about the feelings of suicide because we just "couldn't do anything right?" My God, I had one of those creeps tell me that I would never be anything or be successful or even find love just cuz I was a bit shy and a normal teenager...just not very "talented" in her eyes cuz I couldn't sing like her daughter could..! Man, I wish that bitch could see me now...!!
(reply to this comment)
| from ??
Friday, January 18, 2008 - 19:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
"Although we have written a number of apologies in Letters published since 1993, we felt we could express these more personally if we published an apology specifically addressed to each of you, the second generation of the Family, whether you are still a member or have chosen another path for your life."
OK then, WRITE me a personal apology! I have a name, you know. And don't forget to send it to me.
Don't forget to follow the limits of what an apology requires (for a primer, since you seem in dire need of one, read this book (paying special note to what does NOT constitute an apology -- your very own specialty for duping dummies): http://www.amazon.com/Revenge-Laura-Blumenfeld/dp/0330493604/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200714203&sr=1-1) the book is called "Revenge: a Story of Hope" and maybe your story of hope will be that you lived to a ripe old age by doing things that made those butchered children's revenge wishes less urgent.
Unfortunaltely, your actual apology to me would incriminate some of your head honchos and would involve your taking back decades of LIES to acknwoledge my accusations and your lying revictimizations of me.
(reply to this comment)
| from capulet
Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 05:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
It bothers me that in her apology she only speaks of the sexual abuse, whats with all the other forms of abuse mental, pshcological, the beatings for free thinking which was labeled disrespectfulness and devils lies. We were always told we had the choice to stay or go but the thought was treated like treason. when I left I couldn't speak a word of my "mother tongue" and had on education whatsoever other then some forged CVC shit
(reply to this comment)
| from Phoenixkidd
Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 11:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
It's as if Zerby is saying: Yeah let's just blame it all on that alcoholic-pedeophile-sick-old-man--Berg! Who cares if we just sat around and watched and tried to write tiny explanations of what 'Dad really means to say is...' Who cares if we did everything we could to manipulate the cult society to keep us hierchy sitting pretty on top, while children slaved away on the streets and were spanked under the pretext of "serving God"
This all just makes me sick, go away Zerby go away!
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from to Maria and Peter
Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 10:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
When do you plan to post your letter of apology on the Family's official website? The homepage of the website at thefamily.org could use some updating.
Especially in regards with linking both websites Family Care Foundation with The Family.
Also you should list all TF members that have been found guilty of child abuse. And desist from using the tired old -lying -statement of " no one has ever beeen charged blah blah blah" in the media and on your website.
(reply to this comment)
| From calmbomb
Thursday, January 17, 2008, 07:17
(Agree/Disagree?)
Do you understand that this letter was no form of apology? I didn't see any sincerity in it at all. They are apologizing for what Berg did back in the day... But they still don't take it upon their own shoulders to apologize for how they personally contributed to the child abuses that went on in TF.
I won't ever lose all hope that they will eventually see the error of their ways and give an apology more like,
"Yes, these things did happen in the Family; and we're not just talking about sexual abuse, we are talking about child labor, heavy spanking, food deprivation, etc.. Peter and I are individually responsible for those happenings, as we were both present when they were suggested to/forced on the whole entire Family as childcare examples. In fact, many times, we were the ones who gave these suggestions. We do not blame a drunken old racist man who is now dead, but take FULL responsibility for the evils that went on in the Family and the evils that are still happening in the Family. We were sober at those times we witnessed and gave authority to every single publication that went out to the Family and we were wrong about a good majority of them."
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From harleyquinn
Saturday, January 26, 2008, 10:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
you said you're sorry? no you didnt, you had your PR person who just raped write it for you. as if you people are even capable of doing anything but give blow jobs and cook dinner. your uneducated swines. you're worse than hitler and osama combined. you are truly the biggest disapointmenets to god and mankind and will go down in history as one the biggest, sickest, most discusting things to take place in the name of god. just because noone has been charged or convicted does ofcourse not mean that it didnt happen - if a tree falls in the woods but noone is around to hear it, does that mean the tree did not fall? you are 2 of the most vile, UGLY by the way - i have seen your dirty pictures and how you must have such low self esteem for being so ghastly. leave us alone. dont come on here and leave comments noone gives a fuck about, you writing to us gives us a hard on, haha, the fact that you are seriously suffering from bipolar disorder and havent been medicated and then even attempt to communicate with us like we arent smarter, more sophisticated, better in EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE WAY is just reiterfying how much of a joke you are, to yourselfs, to everyone and eveything. im gonna make sure a feature film starring robert de niro is made because then lot of people will see it and your retarted religion will go from the totally laughable amount of memebers to just you 2 nutcases. haha, look in the mirror and you see the devil in the reflection as youselves. just cause u wrote ur sorry does not mean it is for one second aknwoldged. fucking losers.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | from Twisting the knife
Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 08:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, that's authentic alright... I wrote a short note to their email address on their website, and got this response with the same apology attached in a PDF file.
>>
Hello ,
Thank you for your letter. The Family hasn't posted an apology on the ex-member web site, but we did publish an apology. I'm not able to confirm that the one on the ex-member web site is accurate, as I don't access it.
However, enclosed is a copy of the apology that was published by the Family. We don't normally respond to anonymous mail, and I'm of course not personally familiar with the circumstances of your life, your relationship with your parents, etc., so can't respond knowledgably to your queries. I am sorry to hear that you feel you were mistreated in any way during your time
in the Family-the Family's goal is to ensure a happy and safe environment for every child raised in the Family. To any Family member or ex-Family member who feels he or she has suffered any mistreatment of any kind, by
anyone, we say we are truly sorry and ask for your forgiveness.
Sincerely,
Carol Cunningham
<<
"we say" we are truly sorry? Not at all sorry to say, "Carol, not sincere enough for me."
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from Ricardo
Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 01:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
If at all apologizing for the actions, how about the consequences of their actions, resulting in lives screwed up and ruined, suicides, psychological and mental harm... The answer they give for that is: go on with your life and stop critisizing us. Forget the past. A true apology also needs to cover the consequences of the actions performed.
(reply to this comment)
| from repost from NDN
Friday, January 11, 2008 - 11:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
Re. The apology from Maria and Peter.
Firstly when you apologise you do it in your name taking full responsibility for what ever part you played. This was not evident at all, it’s all well and good to blame David Berg now he has died and very convenient. Maria and Peter were there during that whole episode with Mene, they complied and advocated what Berg said and did therefore they are responsible. They were also responsible for setting the standard of harsh treatment towards young people that went out to the whole Family after Mene.
Secondly, lets be clear the letters were not misapplied by D.B. the ‘Law of Love’ according to David Berg allowed heterosexual contact with any age and any relative as long as it was done in Love. Maria and Peter are picking and choosing what they want to keep from this absurd doctrine instigated by Berg, and what they want to discard. Instead of taking the logical sensible approach by saying ‘Well he was wrong about that so maybe he was wrong about other things infact maybe the whole doctrine is wrong’ Instead of that they say he misapplied the ‘Law of Love’ how stupid! he was the one who came up with it in the first place, how could he misapply it.
Instead of using the word misapply it would have been more accurate to use the word misappropriate because that is exactly what the whole thing was about using his power and position for self indulgence and self gratification, nothing to do with Love.
This to me looks more like a damage limitation exorcise than a sincere contrite apology, perhaps they feel it will serve to inoculate the young people still in against the whole truth.
Steve.
P.S.
‘As the sole authority for deciding what was published at that time, he also bears responsibility for any harm which occurred because of these writings. In 1988‚ Dad renounced any and all literature which alluded to sexual contact with minors, and by 1994 this had been expurgated altogether from Family writings’
This statement would have us to believe that any bad things that happened, happened as a result of misinterpretations and misapplications of his [David Bergs] writings. [Not so] He himself practiced what he preached, if he was indeed sincere in this statement he would have apologised profusely for what he himself did to Mene [His own Grand daughter] and other young girls.
It’s just so easy to blame a dead man, isn’t it? They said it themselves time and again, the three hardest words to say are: “I WAS WRONG“! Emphasis on the “I“!
Berg was only a marginal figure the last years of the Family. Maria run the Family already years before Berg died. She was in charge of policy, even as far back as the Jumbo days. It was her who was involved meticulously in every detail of that hell hole.
And the most damning evidence against her (and against this new apology) are the Summit 93 notes, published for leaders in 1994, the year of Berg’s death and 8 years after the alleged moratorium on crossover sex in 1987, where, according to them, they saw the light and banned all cross over sex:
"This [sexual contact between adults and minors] is about the only subject where we're really going along with the System, we're playing along with them, we're acting like we believe what we did was wrong, because we have changed, and stopped doing it . . . We need to somehow explain to our [teenagers] that love and loving affection is not wrong. As it says in [Berg's writings], if it's not hurtful, if it's loving, then it's okay. Of course, having actual intercourse with a child wouldn't be okay as it wouldn't be loving, but a little fondling and sweet affection is not wrong in the eyes of God, and if they have experienced the same in the past they weren't 'abused.' . . . We need to explain to our [children] that any experience they may have had along these lines, if it was loving and if it was desired, was not wrong. We need to show them that even if in some case the experience for them wasn't so great, that by comparison to what goes on in the System, it still wasn't 'abuse.'"
The key sentence here, which really exposes this woman and the whole leadershp, is: "WE'RE PLAYING ALONG WITH THEM, WE'RE ACTING LIKE WE BELIEVE WHAT WE DID WAS WRONG, WE HAVE CHANGED AND STOPPED DOING IT..."
And this is really what Zerby and Amsterdam are doing with this new apology as well “They’re acting like they believe it was wrong”! Because they still believe it was OK!
I rest my case.
..........
1. Her Level of control in the 1980's
2. Natural Instinct Modification
1. What you said about her control earlier on, reminds me of The Searchers meetings just prior to the original TTC in Mexico. Mo sent the Searchers out to represent him, and in so doing, people who had stopped Fellowshipping began Tithing/Reporting again, and joined Area Fellowships.
All of us did our boo-hoo and sniffles in the microphones around the world, and it just seemed that The Family was finally going to go somewhere. I thought maybe Leadership mentality would improve, with some of the most retarded dumb-fucks! Instead, The Searchers meetings was really intended to get control of all the RNR babies who were approaching pre-teen status, as well as the teenagers at the time.
In early 1988 I remember a Maria Letter where she absolutely blasted people who had been kicked out of The Family. Any testimonies which said thy never contacted The Family, because they were afraid they weren't welcome, she trashed them, and told them that they should have been pounding on the doors to get in. She ranted and raved that if they believed it was God's will to be in The Family, they should have been on their hands and knees begging at the door to get in. That was how she treated excommunicated members, who the Searchers contacted about returning to The Family.
She's definitely a very evil bitch, and deserves a good hard bitch-slap!
I think if Judge Ward ever sees your post of the Summit '93 notes, he might just take action.
2. Pay attention to this quote:
> "We need to show them that even if in
> some case the experience for them wasn't so great, that by
> comparison to what goes on in the System, it still wasn't
> 'abuse.'"
This is Maria's spin on moral values, and her own code of ethics! So, she ordered her muscle-flexers what the teens and children had better believe.--And that was in 1994???--Oh, my! No wonder there are some inside SGA's will go to any length to defend their sadistic bitch! Nothing to them is abuse.
............
I thought this piece of information is worth putting out. Ricky did a lot of talking with Don in the end about what happened with Mene.
Berg was a drunk and alcoholic and Maria was getting sick of it. She tried to get Berg to stop drinking and some of his behavior.
In one of Berg's semi-drunken stupors when Maria was trying to control his behavior and reprimand him she said, "Well, I can get rid of you too, and these young obedient teenagers can take your place." He was speaking of Ricky and Mene.
From that moment on Maria felt threatened by Mene.
Mene might well have learned how to play the game with Berg. Sex and manipulation rules.
I remember some guy, won't mention his name talking to another brother saying, "The way to get ahead is to have sex with a member of the Berg family." He figured out Berg's "rules of the game". I was kind of shocked at what he said. Who knows that Maria didn't trick Mene into complaining about Berg so that she could go and tell Berg what she said and get her into trouble and get rid of her.
I know my daughter was very sensitive and sensitive to pick up on Maria's feelings about Berg being a disgusting drunk, and feeling safe to confess to Maria as a confident that she didn't think Berg could be the end time prophet because in her opinion God wouldn't pick a disgusting drunk, who couldn't go to sleep at night because of allthe demons he was seeing, and who was DIMENTED in those last days of his life.
He probably actually had DIMENTIA.
So when Berg started abusing Mene, Maria was behind it. Maria was behind it all the way to get rid of Mene and anyone who represented any threat to her step into power and leadership.
Maria had enough control by that time to even control what letters were sent out to the general family. She could have stopped that horrible letter where Berg was saying, "I could choke you,...but that's murder..."I don't remember the exact words. But I read that letter.
That letter was a warning to all people, "This can happen to you, the fate of Mene if you don't respect the prophet." But Maria had that letter published. Because that was really Maria's warning, don't mess with my position in taking the throne. From what I hear Berg was far too demented at that time to know all Maria was doing.
THIS IS WHERE MARIA LOST RICKY. He saw all the abuse Maria did to Mene. And it was about her desire for power and the control.
So as she confesses Berg's abuse of children, why doesn't she confess what she did to take over the leadership? Total Ruthlessness and desire for power no matter who she destroyed.
Any letter of apology she can write is soley about keeping her power. Not to be trusted.
But I consider it is far greater suffering for Maria to watch her power and control fall apart slowly, slow suffering,than for the police to suddenly show up and have her thrown into prison. Then she could blame the destruction of the family on disgruntled ex-members. Now she can reap the results of her own evil.
...........
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from psychopathic!
Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 04:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
The carnage they-karen zerby and peter- cause doesn't penetrate to them because they are not really human in that respect. They're psychopaths. Psychopaths do not regret anything except getting caught. That's all they ever regret. They don't know what regret is; and that's an alien concept for ordinary folks with consciences.
(reply to this comment)
| From sociopaths
Thursday, January 10, 2008, 10:30
(Agree/Disagree?)
Bipolar disorder runs in the Zerby family.
Her manipulative/dishonest behavior is textbook symptomology of borderline personality disorder. Complete inability to accept responsibility for one's personal actions.
Look at the reaction to her son's death. The victims are dehumanized in her view, thus any actions agains them are justified.
I hope she sufferes before she dies.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Personally knowing the Zerby family
Thursday, January 10, 2008, 11:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
...bipolar disorder or any kind of disorder does not run in their family; Maria is the exception. Please do not make this kind of sweeping assumption. Her actual flesh and blood are very kind, good and rational people. They are frankly shocked over what she has become and do not support her actions in any way. Her own mother is now praying against her. The only one left friendly towards Maria is one of her sisters, the rest are furious. Perhaps you meant the 'Berg' family?(reply to this comment) |
| | From Personaly knowing as well.
Thursday, January 10, 2008, 13:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
Bipolar disorder is managable and doesn't make one a bad person. It's treatable. I know for fact that at least one of the other Zerby sisters has bipolar disorder, treats for it, and is a wonderful person, a good mother etc. ...
Karen's problems go far beyond bipolar disorder.
Borderline personality disorder, on the other hand, can be much more sinister if it's not recognized and treatment is not sought. It comes out of trauma, and a great deal of the pathological behavior is learnt and then re-enforced through zero accountability/ and years of getting away with it.
My second oldest sister has borderline personality disorder, and one of the effects is impairment of relationships which the borderline can't control, (in women the control mechanism is most frequently sex and deception). They manipulate to the extreme, and generally pit people against one another to achieve their means, -- behavior one would expect from young children who haven't learnt appropriate boundaries. A very childish way of dealing with life as they tend to be arrested in several aspects of their emotional and cognitive development, often times the result of abuse in formative years.
For anyone who has had the misfortune of being around Karen or subject to her in any way, this is the way she operates; failure to comply with her every wish and view puts one out of favor. She also seldom, if ever does her own dirty work, always gets others to do it for her and childishly denies responsibility etc. ... Getting any sort of a straight answer out of her is almost impossible. Never in my experience has she directly taken responsilibility for even the smallest of incidents. Most of us have to take responsibility for our misdeeds which is positive in the sense that we have opportunity to learn and develop positive coping skills. Cult leadership, on the other hand seem to only refine the art of deception or "negative coping skils," as I call them as time goes on.
The Bergs, don't even get me started on those characters, fertile genetic base for creating complete sociopaths. Biploar, Borderline, Disassociates, Schitzo-effective, etc. ...
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From .........
Friday, January 11, 2008, 08:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
Psychopaths tend to have other people acting the tantrums and they sit back after causing arguments. They stand back and watch it. Also Psychopaths don't mature. They just realize the benefits from gangs/cults and they form their own gangs and psychopaths do, by the way, recognize each other intuitively. They recognize a good con man. ( Zerby recognised Berg and !)
They can't help but bring catastrophe upon themselves and others, because EGO HAS NO COMPASSION. Ego is ruthless, and yet, ego, no matter how crafty it thinks it is, ego is also blind. That's why they go to such incredible lengths to try and predict everything that's going to happen,(end of the world scenarios) and plan it all, and make sure that it's pulled off step-by-step. That's one of the symptoms of those psychopaths with the control freak mentality. They have to have control and power. Everything must be predictable, so they'll go to no ends to try and ensure that all information and relationships are controlled.
predictive programming is where thoughts are instilled in your mind primarily through fiction because the censor part of your brain is down. Your shields are down. You're not on guard and so it goes right into your subconscious these ideas that are brought in there through 'entertainment' and then you become familiar with an idea that really is a foreign idea, but when it actually manifests in life, because it's now familiar to you, you think it's a natural progression and you don't fight it. You allow it to happen.
this describes so what happened with the first gen. they were/are hooked on the mo letters/maria letters.
This is also what happened when they were introduced to the idea of ricky's sexual abuse as 'loving'
Cleverly David Berg maneuvered Karen Zerby, Sarah, Sue and others into a position where they were testing the waters in the eyes of the family. They abused Ricky and it was all honky dory. I don't think he could have got away with it if The Davidto book was The Davida book. He guessed that a little boy would not raise the same shock or questioning than the reverse. i.e Him and Davida. (this is probably to do with cultural propaganda on gender as well as a tactic the Hitler used, he said "All our propaganda must be aimed at the female."
All psychologists know, by the way, that it's much easier to influence the female to change in society, to try something new than it is the male. They also know that the female by her nature wants security or the promise of security, so Hitler said:
"We shall aim all propaganda at the female. The female will come to us and the child must follow the woman and therefore must follow the man.")
So when he and the men in the cult came to abuse the girls in the home what could the woman possibly say! As they had already started abusing little Ricky.
Some helpfull books
An anatomy of comformity-
"
"If one wishes to produce conformity for good or evil the formula is clear. Manage to arouse a need or needs that are important to the individual or to the group. Offer a goal which is appropriate to the need or the needs. Make sure that the conformity is instrumental to the achievement of the goal and that the goal is as large and as certain as possible. Apply the goal or reward at every opportunity. Try to prevent the object of your efforts from obtaining an uncontrolled education. Choose a setting that is ambiguous. Do everything possible to see that the individual has little or no confidence in his own position. Do everything possible to make the norm which you set appear highly valued and attractive. Set it at a level not too far initially from the starting position of the individual or the group and move it gradually toward the behavior you wish to produce. Be absolutely certain you know what you want and that you are willing to pay an enormous price in human quality, for whether the individual or the group is aware of it or not, the result will be Conformity."
Another good book to study is "The Technological Society" by Jacques Ellul.
"1) The critical faculty has been suppressed by the creation of collective passions. The well-known phenomenon of "reciprocal suggestion" has made collective passion a very different force from individual passion."
We've all heard about communitarianism, your community, on your local news. Are you part of your community? et cetera. That's what he's talking about. We're all doing things together. Everything that's together is promoted.
"…We know that individual passion is itself inimical to the critical faculty, but the critical faculty can still be exercised if some equilibrium can be established between criticism and passion. In the collective passion created by technique (of which technique itself is sometimes the object) the critical faculty, which is peculiar to the intellectual organization of the individual, is excluded. As Monnerot says flatly: "There is no such thing as a collective critical faculty." Because technique acts upon men collectively, the passions it provokes–which exist in everybody are amplified. The suppression of the critical faculty–man's growing incapacity to distinguish truth from falsehood, the individual from the collectivity, action from talk, reality from statistics, and so on–is one of the most evident results of the technical power of propaganda. Human intelligence cannot resist propaganda's manipulation of its subconscious."
That last little part is worth repeating.
"Human intelligence cannot resist propaganda's manipulation of its subconscious.
2) A good social conscience appears with the suppression of the critical faculty. Technique provides justification to everybody and gives all men the conviction that their actions are just, good, and in the spirit of truth. This conviction is the stronger because it is collectively shared."
So, the average person thinks they're sane because they bounce ideas off their neighbors, and if their neighbors have the same opinions as they have, because they've all had the same indoctrination, you think you must be sane. That's what it means. He's going through that very thing here.
"…The individual finds the same conviction in his fellow workers and neighbors and feels himself strengthened in it through the implicit communion of media such as the radio. In countries where propaganda technique is exploited, there is a decrease in neurosis as well as in crime."
Isn't that interesting? The more propaganda that's out there the less neurosis there is and crime even falls.
"…We can believe the wartime statistics of the Nazis and the Americans because they fit so well with everything else we know. Conversely, whenever for some reason propaganda technique fails to instill a good collective social conscience…"
Ancient times to fairly modern times relied upon religions to give and reinforce the culture, so when you have everyone doing the same rituals, giving the same catch phrases, then you feel you belong; and when you feel you belong, you are absorbed into the culture. You're absorbed by it. You feel a sense of safety or belonging. This is seen clearing in cults.
Another eye opening book, "About Behaviorism" by B.F. Skinner
On page 220, this little chapter is entitled "Controlling Social Environment," and he said:
"People have suffered so long and so painfully from the controls imposed upon them that it is easy to understand why they so bitterly oppose any form of control. A simple analysis of controlling practices, such as that in the preceding chapter, is likely to be attacked simply because it could be misused by controllers. But in the long run any effective counter-control leading to the "liberation" of the individual can be achieved only by its explicit design, and this must be based upon a scientific analysis of human behavior. We must surely begin with the fact that human behavior is always controlled." Man is born free," said Rousseau, "and is everywhere in chains," but no one is less free than a newborn child, nor will he become free as he grows older. His only hope is that he will come under the control of a natural and social environment in which he will make the most of his genetic endowment and in doing so most successfully pursue happiness."
Berg offered 'FREEDOM' and paternalism.
"The important thing is that institutions last longer than individuals and arrange contingencies which take a reasonably remote future into account. The behavioral processes are illustrated by a person who works for a promised return, who plays a game in order to win, or who buys a lottery ticket. With their help, religious institutions make the prospect of an afterlife reinforcing, and governments induce people to die patriotic deaths.
We object to much of this, but the interests of institutions sometimes coincide with the interests of individuals; governments and religions sometimes induce people to behave well with respect to each other and to act together for protection and support. Proverbs and maxims, as well as explicit codes of law, strengthen behavior having deferred consequences. By himself an individual can acquire very little behavior with respect to the future in his own lifetime, but as a member of a group he profits from the social environment maintained by the group. This is a fact of the greatest importance because it leads to an answer to two basic questions: How can we call a particular instance of the control of human behavior good or bad, and who is to design and maintain controlling practices?"
The leaders i.e David Berg know where they're taking their followers. The followers generally don't. They think they're going to get some self-interest and benefits out of it and rights.
Therefore what it's showing you is that when we talk about things, you might see something one way, whereas the person who's talking with you in a group can mean something completely different. That is why the words that we use have to be thought out very carefully.
Politicians do that, at least their scriptwriters do it for them, and lawyers do it all the time. Yet the average person will use words and terms and phrases they think they understand but really don't. It's no different than when someone talks about God in a Christian culture. They all take it for granted they're talking about the same impression of the same being. That's why they're hoodwinked by people like George Bush, who was asked when he was a Christian, he said “if you’re asking if I was born again, the answer is yes,” and that satisfied the Christians. They heard a term familiar to them and they immediately placed it in their little memory bank and compared it to all the other phrases for acceptance; and bingo, Georgie was suddenly a Christian,
You can be hoodwinked so easily by deliberate misapplication of terminology. “Love” itself can have many, many meanings to different peoples. --i.e SHARING meant sexual intercourse in the cult.
Ignorance is essential for totalitarian systems to succeed. Ignorance is mainly fostered through creating a spoiled childish society, a socialist society where no one wants to grow up. Look around and unfortunately for most people it has been successful, because for a few generations there haven't any older people or very few with wisdom to pass on in any great, large, social changing fashion. That is an immature society who is easily hoodwinked. That is the technique that's been used on the public: A world run by experts who can talk utter nonsense to you, but say it convincingly and you're fooled so easily. No different from ancient times when priests would tell you that you couldn't use a fire anymore because there was magic in the fire and they were the gods of fire, so you had to pay them a fee to have them light your fire for you since it was sacred. Before, it wasn't sacred. Now, it is sacred. They give it one generation and every child that grew up thought it was all true. They had to obey this because it simply existed that way. Logic goes out the window, conditioning was in, and conditioning won. These cons have been pulled off for ever and ever. Now it's just the same trick by using the term expert, as Bertrand Russell said, they would create a world run by experts where no one could do anything without expert advice.
It must convince the people that they need it. They start off as services and end up being authorities over you, making you laws and rules that you must obey.
A good description of a cultic environment. (the microcosm(cults/religions of the macrocosm-society/cultures)
"In the higher studies of sociology it's well understood how authority works and how it's utilized and can be utilized to make people do that which is planned for them by others. Part of this comes from the understanding of conscience, something that everyone has, we hope, except for the psychopath. Conscience came to the fore during a very brief period of individualism when the Protestant religions were taking over from Catholicism, they were emerging, whereas the old system was based on rules and regulations and again a collective society, where you obeyed authorities without question and lived to an extent in fear: Fear of the unknown, fear of the supernatural and fear of hell. When the Protestant religion came out, for a little while, people in between both of them realized that they had a sense of will or freedom. That was submerged very quickly as the Protestant religion gained momentum and became a big authority itself, as all things must do in this dialectic of ours.
Conscience is a harsh ruler. It's just as great as an external authority. Those at the top understand this process and therefore you those things which make you think you are you. They give you a composite you, what is good at the time is what you become; and if you go against that which is good or authorized at the time, the conscience kicks in. It can be very destructive to the person who goes against it. However, they forget all about human nature, because human nature wants to go one way, while the conscience goes another. You kick against the bricks. That's the old saying.
People today think that they're free because they are “good.” They are good because they obey the system of the time in which they live. That's how everyone accepts it without much thought. They don't think much about the culture they live in or the times that they live in. They take it for granted. They think they're free because they're told they're free and they can play a lot more than they used to. They can break a lot of the old rules which they couldn't in past times, because you have new rules today. They think they're under less authority in fact when they're under more." Alan watt
Be an individual rather than a borg. Karl Jung says in 'The Undiscovered self"
"It is just this banding together and the resultant extinction of the individual personality that makes it succumb so readily to a dictator. A million zeros joined together do not, unfortunately, add up to one. Ultimately everything depends on the quality of the individual, but the fatally shortsighted habit of our age is to think only in terms of large numbers and mass organizations, though one would think that the world has seen more than enough of what a well-disciplined mob can do in the hands of a single madman.
Unfortunately, this realization does not seem to have penetrated very far and our blindness in this respect is extremely dangerous. People go on blithely organizing and believing in the sovereign remedy of mass action, without the least consciousness of the fact that the most powerful organizations can be maintained only by the greatest ruthlessness of their leaders and the cheapest of slogans."
"Where the many are there is security."
He's talking about how mass-movements think.
"Where the many are there is security; what the many believe must of course be true; what the many want must be worth striving for, and necessary and therefore good. In the clamor of the many there lies the power to snatch wish fulfillments by force; sweetest of all, however, is that gentle and painless slipping back into the kingdom of childhood, into the paradise of parental care, into happy-go-luckiness and irresponsibility. All the thinking and looking after are done from the top; to all questions there is an answer; and for all needs the necessary provision is made. The infantile dream state of the mass man is so unrealistic that he never thinks to ask who is paying for this paradise. The balancing of accounts is left to a higher political or social authority, which welcomes the task, for its power is thereby increased; and the more power it has, the weaker and more helpless the individual becomes.
Wherever social conditions of this type develop on a large scale, the road to tyranny lies open and the freedom of the individual turns into spiritual and physical slavery. Since every tyranny is ipso facto immoral and ruthless, it has much more freedom in the choice of its methods than an institution which still takes account of the individual. Should such an institution come into conflict with the organized State, it is soon made aware of the very real disadvantage of its morality and therefore feels compelled to avail itself of the same methods as its opponent. In this way, the evil spreads almost of necessity, even when direct infection might be avoided. The danger of infection is greater where decisive importance is attached to large numbers and statistical values, as is everywhere the case in our Western world. The suffocating power of the masses is paraded before our eyes in one form or another every day in the newspapers, and the insignificance of the individual is rubbed into him so thoroughly that he loses all hope of making himself heard. The outworn ideals of liberté, égalité, fraternité help him not at all, as he can direct this appeal only to his executioners, the spokesmen of the masses.
Resistance to the organized mass can be effected only by the man who is as well organized in his individuality as the mass itself."
I would add to that: not only well organized in your individuality, but you're comfortable with your individuality. Most people lose it because they're not comfortable being an individual. It becomes a burden to them. They want acceptance.
page 56: For those who still believe that if they're good and they obey the rules they'll some how be saved through religion:
"Curiously enough, the Churches too want to avail themselves of mass action in order to cast out the devil with Beelzebub--the very Churches whose care is the salvation of the individual soul. They too do not appear to have heard anything of the elementary axiom of mass psychology, that the individual becomes morally and spiritually inferior in the mass, and for this reason they do not burden themselves over much with their real task of helping the individual to achieve a metanoia, or rebirth of the spirit--deo concedente.
It is, unfortunately, only too clear that if the individual is not truly regenerated in spirit, society cannot be either, for society is the sum total of individuals in need of redemption. I can therefore see it only as a delusion when the Churches try as they apparently do to rope the individual into a social organization and reduce him to a condition of diminished responsibility, instead of raising him out of the torpid, mindless mass and making clear to him that he is the one important factor and that the salvation of the world consists in the salvation of the individual soul."
It is true that mass meetings parade such ideas before him and seek to impress them on him by dint of mass suggestion, with the unedifying result that when the intoxication has worn off, the mass man promptly succumbs to another even more obvious and still louder slogan. His individual relation to God would be an effective shield against these pernicious influences. Did Christ ever call his disciples to him at a mass meeting? Did the feeding of five thousand bring him any followers who did not afterwards cry "Crucify him?" with the rest, when even the rock named Peter showed signs of wavering? And are not Jesus and Paul prototypes of those who, trusting their inner experience, have gone their own individual ways, disregarding public opinion?
This argument should certainly not cause us to overlook the reality of the situation confronting the Church. When the Church tries to give shape to the amorphous mass by uniting individuals into a community of believers with the help of suggestion and tries to hold such an organization together, it is not only performing a great social service, but it also secures for the individual the inestimable boon of a meaningful life form. These, however, are gifts which as a rule confirm certain tendencies and do not change them. As experience unfortunately shows, the inner man remains unchanged however much community he has. His environment cannot give him as a gift that which he can win for himself only with effort and suffering. On the contrary, a favorable environment merely strengthens the dangerous tendency to expect everything to originate from outside."
Another good book is called "Political Ponerology" and the author is Andrew M. Lobaczewski.
The ISBN # is: 1-897244-18-5.
(reply to this comment) |
| | from clark
Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 10:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
it would be intersting to see if they still hear Berg's voice from the spirit world and print it up and read it for word time. If they will acknowledge the error of his ways, how can they justify still deeming him the "prophet" and themselves the "children of David" using the "key's of David??"
How do you seperate Berg back in the 80's and TF today? Even after death he was a HUGE part of TF.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from examples of..
Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 03:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
'straight and crooked thinking' by Robert H. Thouless
http://www.246.dk/38tricks.html
(reply to this comment)
| from Raised on the Dito book
Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 22:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
Can someone confirm/investigate whether this is legit with a citation of some sorts. Why now after all this time of denial?
(reply to this comment)
| from cheeks
Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 21:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
It's so easy to blame a dead man. So much easier than having to accept that it was you who made the mistakes and allowed or encouraged the various abuses that were done to us. Stand up and take the blame. Or did all those letters on Breakings apply to someone else? What about you Zerby and Kelly, what about the victor camps that were encouraged by you? What about the Jumbo and Macau the HCS the Mexican tn homes, and all the other combos, where leaders reported directly to you. Do you really think we don't know what happened behind the scenes? WE know you got reports on a weekly basis, they used to read your comments in freaking devotions. We know you knew so don't give us that crap that you thought that silence restrictions were only for a few days. Bull shit.
Oh and the whole we excommunicated the child molesters, what about in 95 in France when the NAS Francis was molesting the fifteen year old girl. The freaking NAS, when did he get excommunicated? Six months after it was reported. Six freaking months and I know you got that report because my mom was the one who typed and sent it to you and your cronies. This was the same NAS that stuck my best friend up in the attic because he was playing guitar in a proud spirit. And we had to wait three days until he left so we could get him down. The Family was so afraid of the leaders that you put in place they did not stand up for their own children or the children placed in their care. Your apology means bullshit to me unless you apoligise for what you have done, and for what you are responsible for. Stop cowering behind the Family and stand the hell up, face the music and dance.
(reply to this comment)
| From Jailbird
Thursday, January 10, 2008, 10:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
Berg would have self destructed years before were it not for the [b/w]itch Zerby, who ferried him from country to country, kept the dude drunk, and laid in bed next to him recording and participating in the molestation of little girls.
Every single young person who grew up in or visited her household tells the same story, except for the ones who are still dependent on her for food clothing and shelter.
The list of berg's victims that we know about is long and sordid.
He started with his first family. Faithy, Deborah, Aaron & Hosea, raped the girls, beat the boys and tortured them through the process of knowing that their sisters were being raped.
Then he started up on the second generation, all of whom Zerby gave him access to.
1. Joyanne (his granddaughter).
2. Davida.
3. Mene (his granddaughter).
4. Bethy (Peter A's daughter).
6. Army.
7. Kristi.
8. Techi.
9. Rick.
As with these serial molesters, there are probably more victims that we aren't aware of at this time.
And you're right Cheeks, she personally presided over all of the Teen Torture centers from South America to the Far East. Reports were sent to her weekly. She knew what was happening in Maccau, Japan, Thailand, South America, North America, Europe, africa etc. ... Peter a cut the checks, or sent the monies to the various places.
Peter raped little girls according to the Lord Justice Ward, and beat Mene, according to their own writings.
This apology is a vicious revictimization of those who have suffered at their personal hands. They take no pesonal responsibility for the crimes they committed, facilitated, financed and covered up.
If there is a God they are very far from her/him/it, may she/he/it spare her/his/its mercy on their perveted and deluded souls. Their apology is certainly not accepted by my sisters or I.(reply to this comment) |
| | from afflick
Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 12:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
As it happens, we discussed the role of apologies in litigation between parties. Within the discussion, this passage, by Aaron Lazare in his piece On Apology stood out to me.
"When an acquaintance says to you, "I apologize for whatever I may have done," he or she has failed to apologize adequately, because he or she has not acknowledged the offense and may not even believe an offense was committed. Another common example is the statement, "If you were hurt, I am sorry." Not only does this statement begin with a conditional acknowledgement of the offense (e.g., "I will be sorry only if you are hurt"), but it even suggests that your sensitivity may be the problem. When President Richard M. Nixon, in his resignation speech, stated that he deeply regretted "any injuries that may have been done," and when Senator Robert W. Packwood apologized for the "alleged offenses" of sexually abusing female pages, both failed to acknowledge definitively what the public believed to be true, thus insulting the intelligence of their respective audiences."
The bottom line is, if someone is truly repentant, they will not seek to distance themselves from the consequences attached to their actions, as the leaders of the The Family have done. Instead, they should accept these consequences as part of the authentic expression of contrition.
(reply to this comment)
| from Tester
Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 10:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
OK, so if they are really not to blame as they clearly try and state in that "apology", they why does Zerb stay in hiding?
It's because they know that they are wrong and could get investigated if caught.
I mean if a matter of them being worried that us "vandari" are gonna hurt them, then why can't they call the cops and get protection from them.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from just another slap in the face...
Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 04:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
Child Abuse
What is it?
Humiliations, spankings and beatings, slaps in the face, betrayal, sexual exploitation, derision, neglect, etc. are all forms of mistreatment, because they injure the integrity and dignity of a child, even if their consequences are not visible right away. However, as adults, most abused children will suffer, and let others suffer, from these injuries. This dynamic of violence can deform some victims into hangmen who take revenge even on whole nations and become willing executors to dictators as unutterably appalling as Hitler and other cruel leaders. Beaten children very early on assimilate the violence they endured, which they may glorify and apply later as parents, in believing that they deserved the punishment and were beaten out of love. They don't know that the only reason for the punishments they have ( or in retrospect, had) to endure is the fact that their parents themselves endured and learned violence without being able to question it. Later, the adults, once abused children, beat their own children and often feel grateful to their parents who mistreated them when they were small and defenseless.
This is why society's ignorance remains so immovable and parents continue to produce severe pain and destructivity - in all "good will", in every generation. Most people tolerate this blindly because the origins of human violence in childhood have been and are still being ignored worldwide. Almost all small children are smacked during the first three years of life when they begin to walk and to touch objects which may not be touched. This happens at exactly the time when the human brain builds up its structure and should thus learn kindness, truthfulness, and love but never, never cruelty and lies.
(reply to this comment)
| from Jailbird
Monday, January 07, 2008 - 22:15
(Agree/Disagree?)
Pitiful,
If this was issued pre 2008 Lord Justice Ward would have probably reversed his decision. This was vetted through several layers of lawyers. Really says nothing.
They've been quiet in the media up until this piont precisely because of that, issue, Sammy being out of the court's control this year. But now they're at liberty to re-victimize victims, deny the whole Mene issue, where LJW ruled that Peter, and Maria were raping/party to the rape of she and other little girls.
Also, now they can go into the media and say that they've apologized. Pretty sad, now they can start paying for therapy and reparations.
(reply to this comment)
| from Fish
Monday, January 07, 2008 - 19:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
I suspect the authenticity of this "apology." Several statements in it sound decidedly un-maria-ish. If it is real, they are openly admitting to being a party to institutionalized abuse. And whats this nonsense about "lack of education" they tacked on, seemingly as an afterthought?
Whatever. Im going to do some SuperWorkBook now.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from Raised on the Dito book
Monday, January 07, 2008 - 18:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
Putting aside the issues of 1) how offensive this trite apology is for such serious issues as systematic child abuse, 2) the sidestepping of responsibility by leadership (clearly they didn't agree with Berg at the time, and voiced that disagreement right?), 3) that this admission contradicts so many previous statements the Family has made in court around the world over the years, and 4) that no molesters were named, if they are sincere in wanting to rectify wrongs, the Family should add this to the front page of their official website and distribute it widely to news media and academics.
Strikes me as quite newsworthy. "Large cult admits that child-adult sex (in legalese this is called child rape) occured, not on an isolated basis, but systematically, because of the writings of its founders. PS. No molesters were named and current leadership takes no responsibility for it."
(reply to this comment)
| From figaro
Wednesday, January 09, 2008, 10:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
Absolutely. If this is real then it should at the very least help out with any custody cases for the simple fact that they admitted it happened and even though they "outlawed it" they allowed the offenders to remain were they could do it again or teach their perversions to children. The thing is, even though the offenders now have rules to abide by, doesn't mean that they are gonna stop. Pedophilia is a mental sickness and the threat of punishment is not going to stop it. If it would then there would never be any offenses because every country has laws against it, but thats not the case. Plus, even if the person is punished when they do it (thats a BIG if) the damage is already done to the child who they abused, punishing the offender isn't going to undo the damage done to that child.(reply to this comment) |
| | from Big Sister
Monday, January 07, 2008 - 17:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
What I wonder is, why does this appear now? Is this supposed to be a kind of distraction from tomorrow, the third year anniversary of Ricky's death? Or a weak attempt to ward off guilt by saying sorry a bunch of times but still failing to make reparations.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from Peter
Monday, January 07, 2008 - 13:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
I find it strange that they would issue an open "apology" letter to "Current and Former Second Generation Family members" but instead of actually attempting to distribute to everyone to whom it is addressed, secretly distribute it only to current members and leave it to someone else to anonymously leak it on a message board primarily frequented by former first generation members - see http://www.newdaynews.com/openhouse/index.cgi/noframes/read/46763 - and then wait for it to be reposted here.
If it is authentic, this so called "open apology" is highly offensive to anyone who survived the experience of being raised in the Children of God/The Family cult. It is offensive to the thousands of children who were abused while growing up in The Family and even more offensive to the survivors of direct abuse by the two child molesters who are purported to have written it.
It does not even come close to being a real apology but is simply more of the same bullshit they have been spewing for years. There are a few minor differences. For example, before they said that they made some acts of child sexual abuse involving adult-child sexual contact an excommunicable offense in 1985. Now they claim this did not happen until mid-1989. Other years they have cited as being when this policy was supposedly enacted include 1986, 1987, 1988 and 1995. Indeed, they seem to have a great deal of difficulty in keeping their lies straight.
Because this so-called apology is just more of the same bullshit, I don't see why I or anyone else should waste time responding to or commenting on it in any detail. However, I feel compelled to point out the following:
1. By their own admission, they have only prohibited acts of child sexual abuse which involve sexual contact between adults and children. They have completely and conveniently ignored all the forms of child sexual abuse which don't involve sexual contact between adults and children.
2. The vast majority of those who abused children in The Family were never excommunicated for any type of child abuse and many of them, including the child molesters (Karen Zerby and Steven Kelley) who run The Family and the child molesters (Claire Borowik and Lonnie Davis) who are its primary spokespersons , are still members. No one is going to believe that The Family International is serious about protecting children from the risk of abuse and holding child abusers accountable until they permanently expel from their organization every single person who has ever abused a child and fully cooperate with authorities in the criminal and civil justice systems to do everything they can to ensure that abusers are held accountable and that children in the community outside the cult are protected as much as possible from the risk of abuse by child molesters and abusers expelled by The Family.
3. The Family International still does not have an adequate or meaningful child protection policy. Other cults, such as ISKCON (aka the Hare Krishna movement), have demonstrated that it is possible for cults with a history of child abuse to reform to some degree and belatedly enact meaningful and adequate child protection policies.
For example, see the following
http://www.childprotectionoffice.org/
http://www.childprotectionoffice.org/CPO_Policy___Procedure_Feb_05.doc
4. They have never even attempted to make restitution to a single one of their victims.
5. While they claim to "acknowledge that abusive actions occurred," they have publicly denied almost every single specific allegation of abuse that has ever been publicly made against a current or former member of The Family. The only instance I am aware of in which they have publicly admitted a specific case of child sexual abuse alleged to have occurred in The Family was in 1984 after Deborah and Bill Davis' book was published and, in response to allegations by Deborah Davis that her father (David Berg) practiced incest, Faith Berg alleged that Bill Davis had an incestuous relationship with his stepdaughter Joyanne. This was based solely on hearsay by Faith Berg. But a few years later when Joyanne herself appeared on television and alleged that her grandfather David Berg had sexually abused her, representatives of The Family repeatedly claimed she was lying. It has been the case ever since that whenever abuse survivors have bravely come forward to tell the world what happened to them, representatives of The Family have denounced them as mentally unstable liars or worse. This has been the case even when there is a small mountain of irrefutable evidence that supports the specific allegations of abuse being made. It makes one wonder just what, if anything, they are acknowledging.
I could go on but I'll leave it at that.
(reply to this comment)
| from Falcon
Monday, January 07, 2008 - 11:10
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Dear Maria and Peter,
Not only does this “apology” come too little, too late, I question its supposed sincerity when you place the blame upon anyone but yourselves who were directly party to, and responsible for many of these abuses.
I do not for a minute believe that you are stupid enough to imagine that this will appease the abused parties, nor do you intend for it to. I am sure you know as well as we do, that this sanctimonious benevolence will not fool anyone but your own blindfolded members and perhaps the few academics who you have paid off or fooled. But this will sure help you to keep the divide going between the exers and members, so you can say, "See? We've apologised again, but they don't want peace, they want war. They are bitter and taken over by the dark side." Let me point out for the umpteenth time why your apology is, as always, inadequate.
“Peter and I, as the Family's current leadership, want to personally apologize to you for anything negative or hurtful which may have happened to you during your youth or time in the Family. We acknowledge that from the latter part of the '70s to the mid-1980s the Family wasn't as safe an environment for children and young teens as it should have been.” (why wasn’t it a safe environment? Who was it that made it unsafe?) “We sincerely apologize that you were not better protected when you were younger. We are very sorry if you had any untoward sexual experiences. (Who wrote about and condoned the sexual abuse with her own son?) “We apologize if you were treated harshly in any manner or received excessive discipline at any time‚ or if any of you did not receive an adequate education.” (Who was it who printed the missives telling the adults how to treat the children and administer punishment?)?We apologize to you, our former members, if you felt stigmatized upon leaving the Family, or if you didn't get all the help and support you felt you needed or wished you would have had. (Who has written letters telling members to pray against the ex-members and minimize contact with them?) We regret any actions by anyone that were unloving, unkind, hurtful or harmful.”
There is no apology for what YOU, Zerby and Kelly, have done, there are only apologies for a vague “anything negative or hurtful which may have happened to YOU (us). YOU were not better protected…YOU had any untoward sexual experiences….YOU were treated harshly….YOU did not receive adequate education.” It’s all about what happened to us, while failing to mention who it was who was responsible for the abuse. Was it, in fact, YOU, Zerby and Kelly who are apologizing for what YOU have done to us? While you place the blame on Berg, you fail to mention your own crimes. Zerby, it was you who wrote about and instituted the Victor and DTR programs and as such are directly responsible for much of the physical and mental abuse which occurred during that time. You are responsible through your letters for the stigmatization of us who have left calling us liars, apostates, bitter, backsliders and vandari. You condoned the sexual abuse of your own son, and gave the little girls to your pervert prophet Berg. So your tune is changing now is it? Now we are not lying? Very good! There’s some progress at least. Could it be that there are now too many of us speaking out to allow you to use the line of “a few isolated circumstances”?
If you are truly sorry for what you have done, then where is the compensation to the victims? Where is the physical act of restitution? Many of your children suffer severe psychological problems due to your instituted programs breaking their minds, or from the serious sexual abuse they experienced by adult who were merely following your letters endorsing child abuse. Where is the psychological help and money so they can attend therapy? Others have killed themselves, unable to cope. Many of us have slaved away beating the streets, making money for you for years; if we were part of any legitimate organization, we would have received monetary compensation for this work. You apologise that we did not receive education; where is the money extended to allow us to attend school and catch up now?
Your “apology” is meaningless unless followed by positive action, otherwise it continues to be what your “apologies” always have been; just words. If you truly believe that what happened was wrong and abuse, then why don’t you turn over those abusers within TFI who you are shielding to the proper authorities instead of allowing them to continue within your ranks in leadership positions, or continuing to pay off the ones who have left? Perhaps because if you turned them in, they may turn on you, with all the secrets and lies which they know about you. Or would you, in fact, have to also turn yourselves in? The fact is that as long as the leaders, yourselves included, are running the Family, then it will continue to be rotten to its core because YOU are the abusers.
You are not actually sorry for what you have done; you are sorry that you have been caught and called out on your crimes. You are sorry that now you are receiving so much negative publicity that you’re finding it much harder to con people into giving you money and supporting your dishonest endeavours. We do not want a vague apology for what happened in the past. We want YOU personally to apologise for what YOU have done specifically, and then make amends to all the damaged parties. You have grossly underestimated our intelligence if you imagine that we would accept your half-baked passing of blame under the appearance of an apology. You are the true hypocrites, which your Jesus spoke of: “Whitened sepulchers full of dead men’s bones”.
(reply to this comment)
| from JohnnieWalker
Monday, January 07, 2008 - 11:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
WTF??? They spend half the letter apologizing for something they spend the other half of the letter saying they weren't responsible for.
How is that an apology?
(reply to this comment)
| from ----
Monday, January 07, 2008 - 10:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
"We pray that you will accept our apologies as a sincere, heartfelt attempt to express our regret for any pain or unhappiness you experienced during your youth or time in the Family. We pray that this apology will help you find healing and closure" Ha!
This should be , we pray that you believe us when we say “we had no idea this was going on--we did not participate.” We pray that this apology will help you find healing and closure cause we really don’t want to have to go to court!! We said, we are sorry sooooo, can we kiss and make up now already? Sorry? Sorry we were caught sounds more appropriate!
(reply to this comment)
| From Kellynli
Monday, January 07, 2008, 10:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
Here is a copy of a letter my mom sent me back in
August 17, 2004
"Hi honey. I love you sweetie, and from your letter you seem to be pretty worried about that. But please know honey, I will always love you. It’s something you are just going to have to trust me on, and believe that I do, even when you get hit with doubts that it’s true.
You know, I’m not sure where exactly your fears about this are coming from, but believe me, the intention of my last letter to you was to send you a brief newsy note, letting you know I was off with the kids on a holiday, so I wouldn’t be writing much. I know I usually write you much longer letters, but to be honest, most of the mail you send me is pretty short, just a few lines letting me know what you are up to. So I just answered the one you sent me quickly in the same way, with a few lines about what we are doing. I figured a short note is better than none, and wanted to let you know what the kids are doing on our holiday, as I was going out.
You know M it honestly kind of bugs me that I can’t just write you a short note to say hi without your interpreting the worst. I would just like to be able to have a loving relationship with you, and do something like let you know that the kids are swimming or whatever, without it becoming a major issue.
Honey, I am sorry if you are having a hard time right now, or if you’re not so happy. Somehow I think that keeps pointing back to me in your mind, and that you feel I must be responsible for the unhappiness you feel now. But you are a big girl, and I am trying to respect your decisions, and let you make your own choices in life, and live with the choices you make. I could give you a lot of advice, and am often tempted to do so, but I don’t because you have made it clear that you don’t want that, so I am trying to respect that, whether I agree or not.
I am sorry that things happened that hurt you in the past, and that hanging on to it and reliving it in your mind causes you so much unhappiness now. We have talked about this again and again, on my trips there, in letters, over the phone, and I think we have pretty much covered that territory in detail time and again. Yes, there are things in your lives as my children I wish I had done differently, stopped, changed or prevented. I really am sincerely sorry for any hurt you went through. My hope and prayer is that our relationship can move past that now. I don’t think it is mentally or spiritually healthy to dwell so much on things that make you angry, it just feeds it.
So yes, after apologies have been made, hurts discussed and attempts made to heal wounds, I prefer not to hear about those things again and again. You shared it with me in detail, I apologized for any hurt that I know of. I hope we can not let it ruin our relationship, or that it becomes our only subject of conversation, because that seems to me to be a pretty negative, unhappy existence. There has to be a closure, or it becomes self destructive to not let it go. That is true for you as well as me, because those were pretty painful times in my life too. I personally want to move past them, so yes, it saddens me to have it constantly dredged up and relived. Besides some painful experiences there was also so much beauty, happiness and love that we lived together, and I want to dwell on that.
You know you talked about how much I was “hurting when S left”. You know honey, believe it or not, at the time I was actually not all that hurt, but was really trying to take it by faith that S had made a choice, and accepted that I should back her in her choices. I missed her terribly, and wished she had stayed, because I liked having her around, just like all of you. You’re my daughters and I love you!
When you wanted to go it was basically the same, and I know I even prayed with you and shared a prophecy with you that you were going with my and the Lord’s blessing. I tried to back you in your choices. When you ended up at --'s . I was very thankful that someone was offering to help you, house you, give you a chance to get set up, study and get stable financially, etc. Though I worried it might be a strain on them I was thankful that it would give you an opportunity to save money, go to school and get set up without a whole lot of financial pressure.
I think it has been very stressful for you when you decided to move out on your own, but again we just had to let you make those decisions for yourself. I think you learned a lot from it, and are now trying to pick up the pieces, and your life hasn’t been easy since then. But I have been trying to back you and encourage you each step. You learn through things you experience, and I am trusting you are growing through the things that have happened to you, and becoming a stronger person through it all, and learning to make wise decisions.
The only real hurt I felt came down the road, when the issue evolved into you both not agreeing or accepting my own choice, to remain doing what I am doing here. It’s true, all the anger you expressed about that bothered me, and I felt I was not being shown the same respect I had shown you both. At the same time though, I guess those things needed to be talked over. We did, and now I know how you feel, and I think you know how I feel. We got it out, and cleared the air, and we are on pretty opposite sides of the fence on those issues.
But that doesn’t mean we can’t have a relationship. We obviously have things we disagree on, but I think we have to handle those things like mature adults. Yelling, angry venting sessions are, to my way of thinking, pretty counterproductive and immature, so yes, I don’t like to get into those types of sessions with you or anybody else. We had a few together, both our tempers flared, I regret them, and I will not repeat them. In fact I hate it, and I don’t think people should relate to each other like that, in accusing anger. I think you can respect that, and accept that your mother does not necessarily believe all the things you do, or want to do the things you do, anymore than I expect you to believe what I do because you are my daughter.
But as far as my last letter to you, all I can say is, lighten up honey. Yes, the kids went swimming and hiking. In fact they had a blast and so did I. Personally I think that is interesting and thought you might like to know, and I try to include little bits and pieces of what they are doing because I thought as their sister you would be interested too. I have tried to go out of my way to inform you of what they do, and how their lives are, what they study, etc, so you would feel included. When you would write me about how you were doing in school I never got upset that you were “validating yourself”. But honey, sometimes I feel damned if I do and damned if I don’t. I think maybe your expectations are a bit unrealistic, and you could cut others a little slack.
So please don’t worry that I don’t want to have a relationship with you. I think if you look over the years, the one who has been calling, writing and visiting is mainly me, especially when you first left. I have pushed to stay in contact with you, keep an open line, and try to be close, in spite of the fact that are lives have taken very different paths.
I do have one bone to pick with you though, and I think I need to share it with you to be honest sweetie. I understand I may not have all the facts, and this might not be the full story, so you could set me straight if it isn’t quite right. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt on this one, but if I don’t ask a misunderstanding could escalate. But I heard you told some of our relatives that you wondered if I had something to do with Eman's disappearance, or something to that effect, and that you felt I wasn’t being truthful about it and was covering things up. To be honest that was very upsetting for me to hear and I certainly hope you know it isn’t true. It worries me that you might believe that, not to mention that it certainly puts me in an awkward position with my family.
I hope the letters from the consulate set things straight in your mind. The police have done what they can to find him, we’ve placed ads in the paper, have gone searching for him, and other than that I just have to put it in God’s hands. It is a tragedy to lose a child, and you probably won’t be able to understand that, and all the pain it involves, until you become a mother and risk losing someone you love. It’s devastating.
Like I said before, I personally want to have a close relationship with you. I am sure you don’t want to be yelled at, accused, nagged or ridiculed, and I will not do that to you, it wouldn’t be fair. I also don’t want to be treated that way by you or anyone else, so I hope our relationship avoids that negative destructive turn. Thankfully we have had some really sweet nice talks and times together. I really hope we have more. I don’t think letting it all hang out, no holds barred, and just getting very critical and negative of each other is being “honest” or “close”. To me that isn’t close, it’s hurtful.
I think we could have a closer relationship than we have now, and that would be great. I think you are a wonderful person, and would be happy to know you on a deeper level. Depth and respect go hand in hand. So I would suggest making a clean start, and we just stop the negativity and communicate without all the animosity, and just enjoy and appreciate each other. Write me, tell me what you are doing, things like that, and I will be happy to do the same. Let’s avoid the scraps and build on what we have in common.
I love you honey, and I hope you know that. I do want to continue writing you and sharing news. I always pray for you, and love you very much. Nothing can change that, whether we agree or disagree or whatever.
Love,
Mom"
(reply to this comment) |
| | From anger issues..
Thursday, January 17, 2008, 04:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
The way I see it is that your mother is deeply in denial esp. when it comes to her own repressed anger. This is why she can't allow you to show any anger around her or towards her. She thinks you can start afresh like nothing has happened. She needs to be brave enough to listen to you, anger and all. But she is in fear. She is not talking responsibility for her past or how it has affected you. She wants all the benefits of a good relationship with out doing the hard work.
As you rightly stated, there can be no relationship without honesty of feelings and she is unwilling to hear yours.
My advice woul dbe to approch her. Either write a letter or start ask her to give u the respect of listening-without interuption-to you, as you have some things which you need to get off your chest.
Some thing like; I am going to say some things that i have neve rsaid before and I want you to agree to hear me out until I am done. This is very important to ME. AFTER I have said what I NEED to say , you can say what you are willing to say. Can you agree to that? --this must be agreed at the outset-
Stick with these four points in order to be more effective and less scattered.
1-This is what you did to me.
2-This is how I felt about it at the time.
3-This is how it affected my life.
4-This is what I want from you.
YOU set the stage. Try and do it on your own turf. To avoid slipping back into an emotional imbalance of being the child/victim.
Once you get going its more than likely your parents will counterattack with the breaking your rule and will fall back on previous, habitual tactics.
STICK to lines such as--I am sure you see it that way.
I am not willing to accept your labels.
This is a good example of why we need this meeting.
It is not okay for you to talk to me like that.
You agreed to hear me out.
Lets do this another time when YOU are calmer.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From madly
Monday, January 07, 2008, 15:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
Life is boring, including most of everything in it. I find this article, and subject in its entirety, monotonous, repetitive and utterly wearisome.
Who gives a fuck if they are sorry, or if they aren’t? What difference does it make in our lives today?
She is a blind ugly and diseased old woman who will die soon enough and so will all the first generation. In my opinion, it will be nice to see them go. I am sure some of you like your parents, but I sure don’t and have no attachment to them, whatsoever.
TF will eventually be dissolved into little homes that do their thing and live their hellish lives as they choose. Who cares? They mean nothing to me and I could care less what they do.
Nothing will ever change what she, and they, caused and I really don’t care to spend my life worrying about her, or them, but that is just me. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from Spring
Monday, January 07, 2008 - 10:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
Is this for real?
(reply to this comment)
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