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from charity Wednesday, February 13, 2008 - 18:02 (Agree/Disagree?) Angies "Valentines" poem--to her 6 yr old?? To My Valentine I'm not tucking you into bed tonight, but He is I can't kiss away your tears but He will I can't soothe the hurt you feel but He does I can't wrap my arms around you, but He can. Please understand you never leave my thoughts And I miss you like you'll never know This pain inside cuts deep into my heart And prayers for you flow out of the wound. He's making us strong, so He's sent the wind and rain But it's hard to see you shaken, you're so young and tender I want to shelter you and hide you from the storm I have to trust He loves you more than I ever could. You try hard to be brave, though you cry when it gets tough Don't worry baby, it's ok to sometimes fall Grown-ups do all the time. Even mommy cried today. Just don't stay there, you're so beautiful when you smile. We'll get through this I promise, and we'll be better for it I know there's a brilliant day just around the corner Until then, remember I love you wherever we are And you can always, always call me mama, because i love baby talk! (reply to this comment)

From what? Sunday, February 17, 2008, 02:06 (Agree/Disagree?) that last part 'because i love baby talk' is not part of the poem she has posted.... (reply to this comment)

From Samuel Sunday, February 17, 2008, 04:21 (Agree/Disagree?) What?! That was my favorite part! :)(reply to this comment)

From baffled Sunday, February 17, 2008, 07:03 (Agree/Disagree?) have some decency(reply to this comment)

From baffled Sunday, February 17, 2008, 07:02 (Agree/Disagree?) retards.... i agree with vix (reply to this comment)

From charity Thursday, February 14, 2008, 08:24 (Agree/Disagree?) I guess its another display of her insecurity and why her son has to do therapy because of it! (reply to this comment)

From vix Thursday, February 14, 2008, 10:14 (Agree/Disagree?) If the above is in answer to my question, I still don't understand why you needed to post it. IMO it smacks of taking a little too much pleasure in the emotional suffering of someone who, let's not forget, is a victim just like we all were, even if she suffers by her own choice. I don't gain any satisfaction at all from witnessing the psychological deficiencies or dysfunctional behaviours of people who shared my background, and I don't feel right about the almost gloating way in which you draw attention to her very poignant longing for some comfort and safety in her life. If you are personally involved in the situation then I can understand that you might be venting some valid anger and resentment toward Angie here, so if that's the case I hope that things will improve for everyone involved. Ach that's a clumsy way of putting it, hope I made myself reasonably understood. P.S. I wonder about the wisdom of referring to any treatment that minors are receiving, I think it's best to safeguard the privacy of those who can't do so for themselves. Admin? (reply to this comment)

From vix Thursday, February 14, 2008, 00:07 (Agree/Disagree?) This is an expression of love from a mother to her son and I see nothing at all wrong with it. In fact I wonder why you felt the need to post it here. Do you have some personal issue with Angie? (reply to this comment)

From jezz Wednesday, February 13, 2008, 18:15 (Agree/Disagree?) Is this about your son? Your child is not your valentines. You are his mother - not his lover. No wonder your child is so insecure! You teach your child that he's nothing without you - that the whole world revolves around mommy. You should be ashamed of yourself and how you're presenting yourself to the world who already finds you an un-fit mother. The day that you start going to your therapy sessions will be the day that Kyle can stop. Kyle will live a wonderful life with or without you but I would suggest that you begin your therapy so that you can actually be a mother and be a part of his life. (reply to this comment)

From AndyH Thursday, February 14, 2008, 12:02 (Agree/Disagree?) There was nothing sexual about that poem. (reply to this comment)

From madly Wednesday, February 13, 2008, 18:28 (Agree/Disagree?) ... a bit harsh maybe??(reply to this comment)

from Angie S. Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 09:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Let me get this straight here: The Family is being criticized if they did help me with my legal fees and then criticized if they did not. Some claim that they currently support me fully, while others claim that I was utterly abandoned by them. I think it's pretty obvious that it can't go both ways. It seems some people here don't have their facts straight, so I'm going to state the facts now for anyone who would like to know the truth of the situation. - My boyfriend and I are not being given 3 grand a month by The Family. We both have full-time jobs and raise our support entirely on our own. - My home was very supportive during my case and I was able to borrow a fair amount of my legal expenses from them, as well as a large chunk from my relatives. - I was not abandoned by The Family. Although I was asked, I opted not to have anyone come with me to the hearing in August. I had my attorney there and did not want anyone to have to deal with the media I knew would be there. It's a private custody case and I didn't want to drag anyone into it unnecessarily. - I never had any intention of moving to Mexico. My former home was moving there, but it was never an option for me due to the custody I shared with Paul. Of course I hoped to visit my former home members with Kyle as some of Kyle's friends moved as well. I know this comment will probably get attacked here by people who know little or nothing of the situation. If the dialog on this forum were of the more rational and reasonable type, I would be more inclined to share my side of the story. I've seen the kind of comments that go up here however, so I'd rather not subject myself to the kind of attack I'll get simply because I'm a Family member. In addition, this is a private custody dispute and I'd rather keep it that way. Kyle's court appointed attorney felt the same way which is why she, along with my attorney, filed the motion to have the media kept out of the courtroom. The motion was denied although it was touted as victory here on this website. I think any parent would understand why I don't want my son's face on the local news associated with a "sex cult" for the sole purpose of boosting a local channel's ratings. Soon after August 1st, one of Kyle's friends told him that he saw him on TV and Kyle insisted he wasn't on TV. They went back and forth on this until Kyle came up to me and asked if it was true. I didn't know what to say because how do you explain that to a 6 year old? It's certainly not fair to him. I know it's easy to compare your life and the hurt you suffered to Kyle's life, and if you wrote a declaration you probably feel that you helped rescue him. But what you have to keep in mind that Kyle's life and your childhood are very different. You most likely don't know me, Kyle, Kyle's father, or the circumstances surrounding this case. Kyle has never been abused, and Kyle's court appointed attorney and the evaluator assigned to the case have agreed on this. This case is strictly a custody dispute between two parents, and the only reason the abuse claim was brought into this is because it was used as a weapon to help Paul gain custody. The Family of today is very different than it was in the past, and I think most of you know this. I would never raise my son in a environment where he would be at risk. Granted there's risk anywhere you are, but my little boy means the world to me and I'll do everything in my power to make sure he's safe. You may not agree with my lifestyle or beliefs, but that doesn't give you the right to actively work towards having a little boy removed from his mother. Recently Kyle had a rough week and was crying at night because he missed me. This whole thing has been painful and is not something to rejoice over. Someday these kids will grow up. Do you want to be responsible for the difficulties they faced in their lives because of your desire for vengence? I put this comment up for those who are interested in hearing the truth. If you already have your mind made up then my explanation won't do anything but make you angry. I'm sorry for the hurt you suffered in your life, but getting involved in a personal custody dispute between two parents will not help you find closure. I hope you find it, but putting yourself between a mother and her son is not a good place to start. (reply to this comment)

From charity Wednesday, February 06, 2008, 20:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Again people, be warned about the familys habits to blatantly lie to your face as they all do. Look up the court records to find Angies testimony by oath that she is given 3 grand a mos. from the family, including a car etc... and more money for her case. (20000.00) the last time. It is all there, yet she continues to lie. I have met Kyle, and he had a hard time adjusting to school and to being around kids and doing things you would think the family would teach their kids to do. (in his case, obey elders, respect elders, be polite and say thank you to ppl etc. very normal and simple things most children are expected to learn. He couldnt even walk a block without complaining as he had not even been expected to excersize, get himself a cup of water, or do anything for himself without his mom smothering him and treating this 6 yr old like an infant. She claimed to be a good mother, tho it was obvious who the better parent was when the psycological evaluator got involved and proclaimed Paul the more capable parent of raising their son- thus giving him full custody. Her first priorities are obviously not Kyle, and his well-bieng. Kyle is a wonderful child, like all children and any of his problems was due to his mothers poor care. Of course bieng in a family home and in the family in general was a terrible place for him, but his mother is always whining and giving everyone the "poor me" story wich has seemed to work well for her so far in the family. (Altho many family members that are learning the truth dont think much of her either) She continues to try and get Pauls money at any angle as if expected of him to support her the rest of her life even though he has custody. She was mandated by the court to get a job, and her bf of 20 works sometimes for the family- wich we all know is not really work. :) Angie has gotten exactly what she wished for Paul- 2 weekends a month. Just what she took Paul to court to begin with. Amazing how the Lord works in mysterious ways huh Angie? I understand your pain, but why are we supose to feel sorry for you, when you are getting what you wished on Paul? If you really want to tell us the truth, why dont you tell it then, as there is a ton of stuff I'm sure you dont want us printing here that is nothing but truth. Paul is a great and understanding parent and has done well with his son. We are so proud of you Paul and all you have been through. All of us who know and have met Kyle have noticed the huge difference in him and what amazing progress he's made so far. He is just a more secure, happy and confident child and we hope the mother can continue to progress so that she can spend more time with him as we all agree that a mother is also important! (reply to this comment)

From fragiletiger Wednesday, February 06, 2008, 14:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey Angie, AS a Mother of a small boy, my heart breaks for you, I can’t even imagine how hard this must be for you. You’ve said that the family changed, and that’s evidenced by the fact that you’ve stuck around instead of disappearing, to some far flung field, to do God’s work. I would like to offer you any support I can, and I’m sure their are other’s near you who feel the same, not as someone who is siding, over a little boy, for or against, The Family, but as an SGA, who grew up in the family, and now has to learn how to live in the world, with a young son. I hope that you and the father can sort this out, and that your son can grow up with both his parent’s. I'm sorry for the hurt you have suffered. (reply to this comment)

From children's rights Wednesday, February 06, 2008, 05:03 (Agree/Disagree?) 'Freedom of expression' and 'the freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds…. ' Education that allows them to develop their personality and talents to their fullest potential, and prepares them for 'responsible life in free society in the spirit of understanding, peace, tolerance equality of sexes, and friendship among all peoples. Children should be protected 'from all forms of physical or mental violence, injury or abuse, neglect or negligent treatment, maltreatment or exploitation, including sexual abuse, while in the care of parent(s), legal guardian(s) or any other person who has the care of the child. (from UN Rights of the Child) A balance must be found between protecting the right to religious freedom, while at the same time protecting children from damaging or criminal behavior that is justified by religious doctrine. While we recognize that parents and guardians have certain rights, including the right of religious freedom, those rights must not be exercised in a manner that violates the inherent rights of children as set out in the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child. taken from http://riseinternationalcic.org/about.php (reply to this comment)

From Jailbird Wednesday, February 06, 2008, 03:02 (Agree/Disagree?) What hurts me emotionally is hearing of Kyle's emotional distress as the result of this whole situation. One of the most traumatic things I went through was the dissolution of my nuclear family as the result of cult policies. The cult aside, a divorce and alienation or distancing of a child and his or her mother or father is very painful, and I have distinct memories of crying myself to bed at night for a long time after loosing my two sisters, then my father and later my mother by the age of 11 as the result of the actions of cult leadership. On the other hand, as a young child I attended public and private schools in France, Brazil, England when the cult was in it's "open" stage as far as letting children socialize with the rest of society. That ended when I was about 11. As a teenager I fantasized about going to school, making friends with children and their parents, having educational opportunities and coping skills that were not available to me. Peddling tapes on the streets of Pakistan, India, Thailand, Indonesia, and other countries, I wondered what it would be like not to have to wake up, take care of children clean the house and be beaten/indoctrinated by the cult and their leadership. I guess what I'm trying to say is that in my view much was taken from me in terms of opportunity and exposure to the world even if there weren’t the sexual, physical and psychological abuse factors that my sisters and I were subjected to. The above being true I envy Kyle's ability to go to public school. I envy that he will be able to grow up without being taught that a set of serial child rapist(s), are to be respected as prophets. I envy that he'll have access to his father, the cult took mine from me. I envy that he won't have to go through life afraid and so fundamentally shaken from years of listening to the ramblings of liars that he develops relationship impairment, trust issues, PTSD, etc. ... I envy that he won't grow up with the knowledge that his mother and other women are viewed as expendable sex objects by their peers and leadership. My views may be controversial, but I do not believe that a parent's membership in a cult disqualifies them as good parents. There are some cases where I believe that a non-cult parent having custody of children may be more dangerous, to the child depending on the manner in which that person lives their life the support structure they have, their ability to provide, etc. ... I have always, however, believe in the right of the child to go to a public school, to have access to education, career choices, mentors, counselors, music programs, and the wealth of options which the cult brand of home schooling prevents, not to mention their desire to "shelter" (control social interaction of) their children. A child has a right to have access to child protective services, psychological services, medical care, socialization, freedom from cult indoctrination where they're taught to respect people who have committed atrocious crimes against innocents, regardless of whether or not it was in the past. You're right, these kids will grow up, they'll learn to read, write and reason for themselves. Do you want the burden of maternal guilt which I've seen visited on many of our parent's generation when your child asks you why he has to work a minimum wage job while getting a high school equivalency diploma? Do you want your child to resent you because others have careers, education, acceptance and friends and he has PTSD? Do you want to have to explain to him that "Grandpa" and Maria, were/are international fugitives from justice, not because of persecution, because of they are pedophile sexual sadists and have a history of brutal violence against children? I feel badly for you as a human being and a mother, and for your son, as I too am a son and have a mother. It hurts me that you and he have to go through what you've gone through, but more so that your son has had to go through what he has had to go through, as the result of your association with an organization that has a history of putting the wants or directives of criminal leadership over needs of the individual child. But as I wrote above I am envious of the opportunities that your child will have that I didn't have, and the disadvantages he won't have, which I struggle with to this day. At the end of the day, were you not a member of a group with a record of criminal wrongdoing against minors, and more disturbingly a demonstrated willingness to behave dishonestly with legal entities and the general public the outcome of this "personal custody dispute" may have been different. Had the court not viewed your membership in the group and custody of your son as a real threat to your son's right(s), to receive a decent education and socialization, the outcome may have been different. Also, I have this question; Did this not come about as the result of you filing for full custody of your son and threatening his father's visitation rights? A simple yes or no if you will. One thing I am very certain of given my exposure to the manner in which family leadership "lead", an they've even put this in writing, is that members are not allowed to engage in legal actions on their own without receiving "counsel" from cult leadership. In one of their writings they directed that members wishing to pursue any legal action against one another or on behalf of the rights of their children, leave the group. I also have enough contacts within the group to know that your action to preemptively file for full custody of your son was supported if not mandated by Thomas Hack and the cult's North American CRO posse. The above being true, I'm not that sympathetic to your suggestion that this was a "personal custody dispute". I also know the underhanded manner in which the NA CRO posse have dealt with survivors abuse, paying off some very young and traumatized girls for pennies that they desperately needed to survive, when kicked out or deciding to leave or get justice, on the condition that they signed legal papers promising to not prosecute named offenders. Mr. Hack has brokered more than one such shameful deal. I don't think that separating a child from either a father or mother is cause for celebration at all, cult membership or no cult, unless one is an active abuser. It's a very sad, very scarring human tragedy that comes about as the result of adults not knowing what they're doing, having children young or in questionable circumstances, etc. ... In life whenever adults mess up and children are around, typically the children pay a high price and it is heartbreaking that your son is experiencing what you describe, truly heartbreaking. But it would be even more heartbreaking if he experienced even a small fraction of what my sisters and I, and, if you're honest with yourself, what you may have experienced. My faith in the U.S. court systems isn't what it used to once be. But I refuse to become cynical to the point where I give up on the belief that there are good and sincere people in every dysfunctional system. I'm also happy to hear that the child has a court appointed attorney and other resources during this transition, which surely wouldn't have been the case if he was still under the control of cult leadership as the result of being in your custody. It's entirely possible that if and when the court is satisfied that your way of life and association with what I view to be an organized crime syndicate, has ceased to be a deleterious influence in the caretaking of your child that you'll be given the type of contact and visitation rights appropriate, to help your son have a healthy relationship with you, which is very important for his development. You should have a relationship with your son. You had a part of bringing him into the world, he's young, you're young. Value the opportunities that youth gives you and understand that you only get one chance at parenthood. I doubt that Paul would stand in the way of you having a relationship with your son doesn't present a threat or expose him to cult influences. What gives me some hope in this situation are the opportunities that Kyle has, the protection he has, which I didn't, but also the idea that free of the cult leadership, who have their own weird agenda, you have the ability to change. I've seen what many 1st generation mothers and fathers have done to their children through not making the right decisions, and not behaving maturely and in the best interest of their children. I've seen the mothers with dysfunctional relationships with their children and vice versa, that doesn't have to happen in your case. The very top leadership are textbook sociopaths. Maria has no business telling any parent anything about parenting or childcare, she never cared for any of her offspring, and is personally responsible for raping little girls and boys and hand-feeding them to her hubby for scheduled rape and molestation. Look at the results of her "parenting" every single child who has left tells the same story and either dead physically, if not dead spiritually and emotionally. If I were a mother I'd look at their, "fruit," not listen to a word they say, and work towards stability and healing personally and then to give my child something I didn't have. You still have opportunity to play a role in your son’s life. How much of a role, and how positive of a role it turns out to be, is very much up to you. I would say “take personal responsibility, and move forward,” but that’s over-simplifying the complexity of the issues we have to deal with. We were raised to trust our “elders in the lord,” children want to please, and many of us have emotional development arrested at the level of a child. So it’s tough, you have some very unpleasant decisions and experiences in front of you if I were to gander a guess. I will say, though, that your son is / should be worth, making the right calls in very difficult decisions, and given they're track record I wouldn't rely on the cult structure lead you to those good/right decisions. I wish you well.(reply to this comment)

From Fuck That Tuesday, February 05, 2008, 18:29 (Agree/Disagree?) What a load of BS. You said that no one on this site would give you a fair hearing "simply because I'm a family member." Damn right! Your one of those idiots who try to rationalise being in the family as "freedom of religion" or a "life choice," and I suppose you can chose to be a lifelong parasite on your betters if you really want to, and they let you get away with it. But to even consider forcing a child to grow up living that life is criminal. If I had my way your kind would be shot. What do you want your son to be when he grows up? Another leach upon society? Granted, your ex husband comes across as a complete douchebag, all this fact does is cast further doubts on your sanity, not to mention your tastes in men. What will your next brilliant life choice be, I wonder? Do give us an update. Perhaps you could post your latest newsletter. Calling on The Keys of idiocy for you, Your Father in the Lord(reply to this comment)

From vix Tuesday, February 05, 2008, 11:08 (Agree/Disagree?) There is plenty of rational and reasonable discussion on this site. Every day that you stay in your cult and support the leadership, you condone their EVERY action in perpetuating abuse on a grand scale. It doesn't matter that 'things have changed'. You and your peers will find that until you distance yourselves from the horrific abuses that happened and the very people who instigated those abuses and actively participated in them, you will get precious little respect from me. Your leadership is filled with the sort of characters that any reasonable person would consider vile and repugnant, yet you find it difficult to understand why people might attack you 'simply for being a family member'? As it happens, my attack is not on you personally but on the system you willingly support despite seemingly being fully aware of the practices it fostered (as evidenced by your statement that 'things have changed', which clearly implies that the current environment is directly at odds with that which was). Having said that, I am truly sorry for your personal situation and as a mother myself I fully understand how painful it must be for you to be separated from your son. I would not wish that experience on anyone. But your son also has the right to be raised in an environment that is not tainted by the kind of disgusting practices that the family engaged in and whose legacies will stay with the group until something is done to rectify what happened in the past. You might find it hard to believe but I doubt that the majority of those who provided statements in this case did so out of vengeance or even in hope of finding 'closure'. Most of us are self-aware enough that we realise that closure is not an end but an evolving process which will continue for the rest of our lives and that no one act will be a magic solution to the difficulties we face. I think that for the most part they acted out of a sense of responsibility for your son and in hope that he will be given more choices in life and better opportunities than we were afforded. It is terribly sad that this situation is not ideal, and of course it is a great shame that it seems it could not reasonably be avoided. I wish you all the best in negotiating the next chapter of your life. (reply to this comment)

From steam Tuesday, February 05, 2008, 10:59 (Agree/Disagree?) I m sure you have had a very difficult time over the last year and I hope you find some healing, as well as your son finding some calm during the upheaval. Thank you for coming on to share some points that you felt were not understood correctly. I hope you don't mind if I ask for clarification on what seems to be the most egregious accusation that was made. The accusation is that you had a fairly well established custody arrangement in which it seemed your son was doing well and he was not in a position to have to "miss you". Then you unilaterally tried to change the arrangement into one in which your son would have significantly less interaction with the father, and just as importantly the father would lose a lot of his legal rights in regards to decisions made that would have an impact on your sons welfare. Further if your attempt had succeeded there would have been nothing to prevent you moving the little one far away from the father should you decide you felt "called" to do so (whether or not you were at the time planning such a move is not very relevant) . As far as your commitment to a group that is lead by confirmed pedophiles (not just Berg, but the CURRENT leadership) and moreover pedophiles who have encouraged pedophilia. Worse yet pedophiles who after banning it for legal reasons were still publishing to the top leadership memos bemoaning the fact they had to pretend the were renouncing the behavior (summit 92 jewels) even though their hearts were unrepentant still. Would you not find it relevant to your sons welfare if you found out that his father had pledged spiritual fealty and dedication to a known former member of NAMBLA? (An organization which by the way The Family sought counsel from in defending their belief systems in the late 80's). What if this person had actively engaged in the activities with minors which NAMBLA supports? What if your sons father was required to believe that this individual was a spokesperson for God who was anointed as the greatest light for the world in the endtime. I believe that regardless of the pain you currently feel there will come a day when you will see that the group which you currently owe such deep loyalty to, is not in most cases a positive place for children to grow up (even if the home you were in at the time seemed to be). Remember as the children get older in most cases there education level lags further and further behind, and especially for teen boys in the group, they are rarely in situations where they can find challenging opportunities to pour their energies into. They end up bored and miserable so very often, and are not helped to find other possible directions for their lives. In addition they get subjected to doctrines like the LJ revelation at a time that they are just experiencing their sexuality which is just about the worst time they could be told God wants them to do those things picturing themselves as women in the spirit etc. This can really screw with a kids head. I understand when your son is young and in a "good" home how it can look like a wonderful environment but in that group as we all know "all things change" and the next "revolution" is just around the corner. I hope that helped you see people don't have to be driven by revenge, to have serious concerns for little ones currently in the group. I wish you and your son all the best as a fellow traveler down life's road.(reply to this comment)

from Jailbird Monday, January 07, 2008 - 22:30 (Agree/Disagree?) The trend of the cult relocating children outside of the reaches of the U.S. court system will escalate in 2008. Anyone who has family, siblings, neices or nephews, grandchildren etc., should file for custody or visitation rights, or at least a court order to prevent the children from being taken outside of the United States. Now would be the time to act. The cult is already acting to take what the no doubt view as "assets", the children, outside of the reach of the U.S. court system. This case establishes a precedent which should make furture custody cases shorter and more clear cut to the justices presiding over the future cases. (reply to this comment)

From Peter Tuesday, January 08, 2008, 05:45 (Agree/Disagree?) Your advice about what relatives of children in The Family should do is complete nonsense and I hope no one is foolish enough to follow it. While parents who have minor children in The Family should certainly act to protect both their legal rights and the welfare of their children; in the absence of extraordinary circumstances which would warrant it, the type of legal action you advise non-parents (siblings, uncles, aunts, grandparents, etc) to take would be doomed to failure.(reply to this comment)

From Jailbird Tuesday, January 08, 2008, 07:16 (Agree/Disagree?) You may be right. Although, legal history history, I.E. British Court Case, shows that non-parents (grandmother in that case) filing for custody and/or some kind of visititation rights etc., can have the effect of the court seriously looking at the welfare of a child, the extraordinary circumstance being that they're being raised in a cult run by criminals, and putting measures in place to protect said child's well-being. In England a grandmother, trying to protect her grandchild, while not a parent, had the effect of preventing the child from leaving England, and made the cult mother put the kid in school, give regular updates to the judge, mandated visits with non-cult relatives, etc. ... Perhaps better for the child than being whisked off to the nether-regions of the earth to panhandle for Maria and Peter, and all the other abuses. In the past what the cult has done has just been to encourage member parents to flee the country, with the children, as soon as any court interference loomed on the horizon. This is probably what would have happend in this case, were it not for intense media scrutiny, etc. ... It's no co-incidence that the rest of the home moved to Rosarito, etc., that's the pattern, to move children out of the reach of courts and services, which are set up to look after the welfare of all citizen children. The cult will encourage this type of behavior going forward, I'm fairly certain.(reply to this comment)

From Peter Tuesday, January 08, 2008, 09:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Of course I'm right. I'm always right. You seem to have missed my point which was that your advice that "ANYONE who has family, siblings, neices [sic] or nephews, grandchildren etc., SHOULD file for custody or visitation rights, or at least a court order to prevent the children from being taken outside of the United States" (emphasis added) is complete nonsense. There indeed may be cases, when specific extraordinary circumstances warrant it, where it is or was advisable for a non-parent relative of a minor child in The Family to initiate legal action to obtain custody or visitation rights but I strongly disagree with your advice that this is the right course of action for everyone and should be a first rather than a last resort. Furthermore, if one's goal is to prevent the child(ren) in question from leaving the United States (or wherever the non-parent relative is) then starting a child custody case is probably not the wisest course of action. As you acknowledge, doing so would only increase the chances that the child(ren) in question would immediately be moved to another country. Since The Family has repeatedly demonstrated that they have little or no respect for the law, even having a court order and legal custody might be completely worthless. Any non-parent relative considering the action you advise should carefully consider all these risks as well as the fact that in U.S. courts (and just about everywhere else) a much higher standard has to be met to terminate or limit someone's parental rights. By the way, the 1992 UK child custody case was not the first one involving a grandmother trying to get her grandchildren out of The Family. In November 1981, the two grandchildren (one was 18 months old and the other was two months old) of Maureen McArdle of Leeds, Yorkshire were made wards of the court. Almost immediately afterwards, the children's parents, Family members Jay and Clair Riley, fled to Canada with the two children. (reply to this comment)

From Jailbird Tuesday, January 08, 2008, 10:07 (Agree/Disagree?) You make some valid points. I still believe that legal action is perpahs one of the only ways to prevent children from being whisked out of the country. Should it be used in every case? Perhaps not. Is it preferable to have a strong support network when moving forward with legal action against the group? Absolutely. Does money help? Undoubtedly. You're correct about the Leeds case, and there numerous others where a non-cult parent was awarded custody, only to have the cult parent take off with the minor. Celeste is an example of this, and there are others all over the world. The cases you mention should/could be used in any preliminary hearing before a judge to have the court hold the passports of the minors in order to prevent flight, during procedings. You are correct that the group have no respect for the law. Unfortunately, the law is the only tool available to relatives concerned about their children's safety and education, and socialization within the cult. Ideally if there is a parent relative out of the cult, they should/could initiate action. But even that has the perils you mention. Regardless of whether relatives take action to protect minors they know are in jeapardy as the result of the life in the cult, in my view, it's definitely the case that the cult is attempting to move their "assets" (children) out of the reach of Child Protetive Services, concerned relatives and a court system that looks at the child's well-being. Legal action has it's perils. I'm at a loss for what the other alternatives are. Preparation is certianly key to any favorable outcome. By favorable I mean one that protects the minors in question. My oldest sister was awarded to her grandparents when she was 10 or so, in a custody battle where they actually flew to South America and extracted her. The cult "saved," my second odest sister and I, we went through the normal; rape, forced labor, panhandling, separation from parents, from one another, victor camps, DTR, etc. ... My maternal grandparents tried to initiate legal action to gain custody of me, only to be foiled by a midnight escape to England from the U.S. I would hope that people attempting to protect children would learn from the history the group has of evading the law. There have been, and I believe, will continue to be, favorable outcomes to legal battles, if planned and executed correctly. This case proves that. Doing nothing, I suppose that's also an alternative, not one that I much care for though. (reply to this comment)

From Samuel Tuesday, January 08, 2008, 06:50 (Agree/Disagree?) ...At which point, the cult would claim victory and would use the case against others in the future.(reply to this comment)

from fkthes Monday, January 07, 2008 - 02:19 (Agree/Disagree?) dang you guys are mean poor angie (reply to this comment)

from fkthes Monday, January 07, 2008 - 02:18 (Agree/Disagree?) dang you guys are mean poor angie (reply to this comment)

From Samuel Monday, January 07, 2008, 07:09 (Agree/Disagree?) No, not mean. Well, some of us might be, but what do you consider mean? Opening up Teen Training Camps to brainwash impressionate kids? Sending kids who don't tow the line to Victor camps? Sexually abusing children? Creating a hostile environment? Seperating kids from other family members (siblings, parents)? Allowing children to be taken away by the authorities in raids because you're too ashamed to admit that old Mo was wrong about something, then using them as pawns to make the media feel sorry for you? I know, poor Angie. She's stuck in a cult. I just hope she manages to make it out one day. You too. (reply to this comment)

From charity Wednesday, February 06, 2008, 20:19 (Agree/Disagree?) yeh, poor Angie, shes not only stuck in a cult but wants her son to be stuck in the cult too so she can read more "life with grandpa" to her son.(reply to this comment)

From fkthes Monday, January 07, 2008, 22:03 (Agree/Disagree?) and do you think angie is guilty of all those things you mentioned? do you think she did any of that to her son, or planned to? shes not stuck in a cult. and for your information i am not in a cult. (reply to this comment)

From Samuel Tuesday, January 08, 2008, 06:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Do I have to answer that question? Sarafina below said that the Mother is a "decent person and a good mother (who is) miss directed". Shouldn't that suffice? I'll accept her opinion, as she was there in the courtroom and has seen this woman before, while I have not. But this is all beside the point. You wouldn't move your kids into a house that is two blocks away from a child molester, would you? Then why would you raise your child in a cult group that is run by two child abusers? I guess if you want to get technical about it they weren't really that active in child abuse while Berg was alive, but they certainly did nothing to stop it. Did you know that after Mene left Berg's home, she was quickly replaced by another teenage woman? The Mom can be as "decent" as Mother Teresa, but if she is raising her child in a group run by two child abusers, the child is not going to be safe! Do me a favor and read the article "An Open Letter of Apology from Maria and Peter" by Exfamily. Then read our responses below. Do you see what the problem is? Do you realise that the people who wrote this also has been quoted as saying: "This [sexual contact between adults and minors] is about the only subject where we're really going along with The System, we're playing along with them, we're acting like we believe what we did was wrong, because we have changed, and stopped doing it [. . .] We need to explain to our [children] that any experience they may have had along these lines, if it was loving and if it was desired, was not wrong. We need to show them that even if in some case the experience for them wasn't so great, that by comparison to what goes on in the System, it still wasn't abuse." —Karen Zerby, Summit '93 Mama Jewels #2, pg.19, 1992 Another memo from Maria, during the British Isles case said "If the Law of Love is right, then it applies clear across the board, no matter what the age is." The apology from Maria and Peter, therefore, is not worth the paper it was written on! They make it clear, if you are willing to read between the lines and search out the truth, that they are only doing this to pacify the system. They obviously don't think it was wrong. (reply to this comment)

From fkthes Tuesday, January 08, 2008, 22:27 (Agree/Disagree?) but she did move out anyway all i'm saying is that i feel sorry for her as a mother. (reply to this comment)

From charity Wednesday, February 06, 2008, 20:22 (Agree/Disagree?) uhh, she didnt move out... they all went to mexico, and none of the surrounding homes want her hi-profile case drawing attention to them and their great child-raising skills so she moved on her own, but still in the family and reading that crap 2 hours a day and no doubt tithing Pauls money.(reply to this comment)

From charity Wednesday, February 06, 2008, 20:22 (Agree/Disagree?) uhh, she didnt move out... they all went to mexico, and none of the surrounding homes want her hi-profile case drawing attention to them and their great child-raising skills so she moved on her own, but still in the family and reading that crap 2 hours a day and no doubt tithing Pauls money.(reply to this comment)

From exfamily Tuesday, January 08, 2008, 22:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Frankly I feel sorry for her too. I don't know exactly how it feels to be a mother/father, but I did raise certain of my siblings almost singlehandedly, and feel almost like their father. I would have been (as I am no longer with them) absolutely devastated if they were taken away someplace else and given to another's care. All the same, I'm very glad Paul won. Going from the mother to the father isn't a bad deal for the child, and presumably if she values her child highly enough she can leave TF and go live with him.(reply to this comment)

From Tester Wednesday, January 09, 2008, 07:57 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah, I think she is just one of those that is just to brainwashed by the cult. I think she has had a little to much "word time". I was on her MySpace and under her "People I would like to meet" she says "Fidel Castro, Godaffi, Yasser Arafat. World leaders who have the nerve to speak out against western capitalism and have been demonized by the our government and the media." Cummon girl! These people have been demonized because they are US enemies! Just because Berg loved anyone that hated the US doesn't mean these were good people..... You stupid little cultie. (reply to this comment)

From madly Monday, January 07, 2008, 22:23 (Agree/Disagree?) Ignorance is bliss, methinks, but not really. The sad thing is you will believe that until you leave.(reply to this comment)

from cultassassin Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 15:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Tonight on Anderson Cooper 360: http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/ Today on CNN.com: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/04/kaye.murdersuicide/index.html (reply to this comment)

from cultassassin Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 15:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Tonight on Anderson Cooper 360: http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/ Today on CNN.com: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/04/kaye.murdersuicide/index.html (reply to this comment)

from Samuel Friday, November 30, 2007 - 19:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Admin, I would like to nominate this article for the front page. How do I do that? (reply to this comment)

from sarafina Friday, November 30, 2007 - 18:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Clarifications. OK now that I am home I wanted to clarify a few things. 1. The “b/f” I was referring to was Thomas Hack’s son not Peter A’s( not that this is a relevant point other then I was making it known that he was the son of leadership a CRO I believe, correct me if I’m wrong) Therefore I believe there was greater backing and pressure on her to pursue this avenue of sole custody. 2. The mother does have the opportunity to see her son more if she continues to make progress, i.e. she has moved out of the home and got her own place and has gotten a real job, I’m sure she is still connected to the family but as long as the child is not living in a commune when visiting her where he would be susceptible to family members who may have at other times played in the abuse of other kids then that is what is important. This is why she was able to get him for an additional day during the week. If things change and she reverts back into a family home or changes her living or work status she could be in jeopardy of having those privileges revoked. Most importantly he also must continue going to school. 3. By the mother accepting this settlement many of the details of this case will not be available in the public record such as the 730 evaluators report on the home and parents, which is a shame but the verdict and ruling speak for it’s self. 4. For the record I believe the mother is a decent person and a good mother miss directed. I can only speculate her reason for rejoining but I know it can be hard as a single mother her age leaving the family and struggling in the real world and sympathize that there isn’t more support available in these cases. I know there are a few people whose goal it is to create foundations that would be able to help more in these much needed areas. 5. I know everyone has there own truth and from reading the mothers personal Blog she sees this out come as a small victory, I’m gathering she is referring to the fact that she was able to get an additional day of visitation, I’m glad she sees it this way and hope that she will eventually get more as time goes on with her continued progress and compliance. 6. Again for the record I nor do I believe was it any of the parents (not in the family) involved in any of theses custody cases intentions to take kids away from their other parents in all of these cases it was the parents in the family perusing full legal custody and attempting to take the kids away and shut the other parent out of access to their homes. Our goal was simply to insure the child a proper education and monitor of the child’s residence, upbringing and have personal participation in their child’s life. 7. In reference to Affliks question regarding the Attorney’s statement “Paul's attorney said something along the lines that K. is living with a bunch of adults between the ages of 25-30 (true) but neglected to add that there are also bunches of young Family kids in the area, due to our peers ever-expanding families. I wonder why he would try to put that particular spin on the situation” The reason I believe he possibly mentioned it was after the judge first ordered the evaluation of the home they almost overnight moved everyone out of the home including all the other kids. A few new people (I speculate more diverse in handling these situations, i.e. possibly from WS) were moved in and along with the few adults left. This was mentioned by a reporter who had been keeping tabs on the home during this time and I believe it can be verified by the names submitted to the court of the residence in the home. I will double check and correct this if I’m wrong. (reply to this comment)

From Summer Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 13:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Sarafina, you said: "Again for the record I nor do I believe was it any of the parents (not in the family) involved in any of theses custody cases intentions to take kids away from their other parents in all of these cases it was the parents in the family perusing full legal custody and attempting to take the kids away and shut the other parent out of access to their homes." Tha facts say otherwise. Paul/Angie case: Angie never intended to move to Mexico or to cut Paul out of Kyle's life. She filed for joint legal custody and to continue with physical custody with Paul continuing his visitation as he had been. Paul filed for full legal and physical custody asking the court to only allow Angie supervised visitation with the child she had raised since the day he was born. Amy/NTL case: Again, Amy filed for full legal and physical custody having the children removed from the father's home. She was the aggressor, he was not. DJ/Faye case: DJ kidnapped their 2 year old son and filed for full custody and Faye was allowed only supervised visitation with her son who screamed and cried when his mother had to go. Thankfully, the little boy has since been returned to her. These are all second generation adult parents who have chosen, and I emphasize, chosen, to be in The Family. Though you may strongly disagree with their beliefs, these parents do not deserve to have their children taken away from them. In all of the above cases it was the non-family parent who moved to have their children removed fully or almost fully from the family-parent's custody. All of this can be verified with the California court system. (reply to this comment)

From cheeks Saturday, January 05, 2008, 17:51 (Agree/Disagree?) I think it is safe to say that most mothers would rather be with their children. I would do anything to stay with mine. I can understand any parent that leaves wanting to take their child with them out of the Family and out of that senseless belief structure. I feel for both parents and the children that are torn between them. I hope for the child's sake that the parents come to understanding between them so that the child can be raised knowing and trusting both parents. (reply to this comment)

From charity Wednesday, December 05, 2007, 21:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Also Summer, Angie filed for sole custody with the father only getting visitations twice a month. Look up the records before you speak! She changed her mind from her original decision in the devorce file that they share 50/50. She took him to court in the first place because she wanted sole legal custody!(reply to this comment)

From charity Wednesday, December 05, 2007, 21:19 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm not sure if its made public or not, but the recomendation states clearly that the father in this case (Paul) is the more fit parent to raise the kid. st--and that was after months of thorough evaluation by a psychologist on both sides. I think that alone speaks for itself!!(reply to this comment)

From cultassassin Wednesday, December 05, 2007, 09:32 (Agree/Disagree?) ...and the blue cow jumped over the square moon!!! Yes, that can also be verified with (as Auntie Summer the Cult Member calls it) "the California court system." Please do NOT get your panties in a bunch over Auntie Summer's comments. Think of them more like a "Joke of the Day" section. Jokes are not true; their purpose is to generate laughter. There is no possible way Auntie Summer is serious. You are trying to make us laugh, right Auntie Summer?... What?... You ARE serious???... Oh... Uh... Hmmm... (Awkward silence) (Stifled snickering through hands) (Loud guffaws and hands slapping on knees) I GUESS WE CAN STILL LAUGH...(reply to this comment)

From sarafina Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 20:39 (Agree/Disagree?) OK I don't really know why I'm bothering to reply to this, you are obviously being told a lot of things that aren't true, I’m doing this for the general public. Also why are you hiding behind an anonymous name? As far as I'm concerned as long as you are hiding you are no one of any merit or credibility. Anyone can come on here and say anything under another name without putting themselves and their name on the line to verify their own credentials. Before I post anything in specific about each case I have first asked the person, in this case I have only spoke with Amy (Armendria) and Paul in reply to your last comment. In Amy's case Nathaniel WAS the first one to have her served. She has lived with me for years and was still living with me at the time, and it came as a shock to her. I kept telling her that he was going to do that and she didn't believe me she kept saying that she wanted to settle it between themselves and not enter a huge court battle and that they had agreed not to use lawyers. I kept telling her he probably already had a lawyer and was just saying that to buy time and sure enough I was right. In any court custody case it's pretty standard to reply back with the same counter deposition you were given and/or ask for full custody. NTL kept telling her he only wanted full custody on paper and that he would still allow her equal rights but that it would be easier for him to travel back and forth to brazil with the kids if he had custody of them, saying it was too much trouble getting a signed temporary custody release every time he wanted to take them out of the country. Really, how lame is that excuse. He was already starting a business in Brazil (Rio visions) and had bought property there. I told her it would not be wise to sign over full custody and assume that he would keep up a verbal agreement as she would be signing away any rights to her kids and there would be nothing stopping him if he decided to move or stay in another country. The other main issue was he wouldn’t allow the kids to go to school and if he had custody there would be little chance of this happening. Also he stopped letting Amy stay over and have full access to the home her kids were in. One of the main reasons he wanted to hurry up this divorce as well was he wanted to remarry as soon as possible. He was already having a baby with his ex g/f and at the same time wanting to marry another. "Good sample" for his kids huh? Regarding Paul’s case it was the same I kept telling him she was going to do this but he didn’t believe me either. I know that he also had a prior agreement with his ex as well and were going into the court to sign the agreement when Angie showed up with a lawyer and basically changed her stance saying she was not signing their original agreement and entered her declaration. I know this cause Paul called me asking me what to do. I suggested he ask for an extension stating he was not prepared and did not have legal advice nor a lawyer representing him. It was his lawyer’s advice to ask for full custody back. I know they also presented Angie with a settlement proposition of 50/50 custody earlier on as Paul also did not want to drag this out in court which she turned down. In Dj’s case In my opinion it’s important that one parent has majority of custody actually so they can make the final call for things like wither or not a child is allowed to go to school which in both these case if they had equal custody, the Family parent wouldn’t allow. I’m not going to argue the facts with you any longer until you prove you have some credibility, I have indulged you enough already. I’ve wasted enough time, my husband is home from Iraq he’s been gone for a year and a half and we are taking the month off to spend time together so I’m sorry if I do not respond to any additional crap from you. The bottom line is the best thing is that the children do not have to grow up in a cult and have the opportunity to go to school. Also I would like to end this conversation with you by stating a quote from another persons article which I felt explains exactly how I feel about this situation as well. “Perhaps there are more in the state, the country, or internationally. I believe that awareness of these matters is important because of our one inexorable common denominator; we each chose to leave the cult and at that time experienced in varying degrees uncertainty and confusion. Some of us continue to survive; distressingly, some of us already succumbed to the pressure of a tortured past. Because a movement that forces its members to adhere according to a limited and restricted set of beliefs no longer suppresses us, our uniqueness is revealed. The expression of conflicting opinions bears witness to the ability of individual thought combined with the choice to exercise the freedom to voice it. I applaud the difference of opinion stated here by different members of this site. The ability to speak differing opinions freely and without fear of retribution is itself a testament against the suppressive cultic lifestyle in which we were reared. I am concerned about and warn against any individual that posts on this site disseminating the cult's point of view or "spin" on a situation. Such an individual is either a cult member or someone that holds a sympathetic view of and endorses the cult. Either way, that individual has no good intention toward any of us. The cult refers to any former member that voices dissenting opinion from them in extremely unflattering terms. Consider the source of the "spin". I state the facts of which I am aware. I stand by everything I posted” I stand by everything I have posted. (reply to this comment)

From Shaka Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 21:16 (Agree/Disagree?) Note from husband who just got back from Iraq: Fuck off, cultie. All my wife's typing is taking away from long overdue shag time. Oh Fiiinnnaaa, I got something for yooouuuu!!(reply to this comment)

From figaro Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 22:32 (Agree/Disagree?) And she gets to call her husband "daddy" and not "Jesus"!(reply to this comment)

From figaro Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 22:48 (Agree/Disagree?) humm... that was probably a really bad joke, sorry. =/(reply to this comment)

From solemn Wednesday, December 05, 2007, 11:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeeaaaah, given our roots, that does read kinda funny. But your intention is clear. (reply to this comment)

From sarafina Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 21:09 (Agree/Disagree?) Oops, accidentally posted this without finishing the paragraph about DJ's case. From what I heard about this one, they came to his work and told him they had already gotten a lawyer and were filing for full custody. It turns out they were bluffing so he went ahead and got a lawyer and filed first but only because they had already threatened to do so. I can't comment further on this case as I am not really involved in this particular one. (reply to this comment)

From Shaka Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 14:03 (Agree/Disagree?) Idiot cultie whore. Remove Jeebus's penis from your mouth, you may begin to make sense. The only thing you will find in the California court system is that your retarded asses keep getting smeared in spite of all your wailing to non-existent poltergeists. I'm gonna crack open a beer and drink to one more kid who won't have to grow up with you freaks. Not to mention all the future cases that this one will set a precedent for. Congrats Paul! (reply to this comment)

From Samuel Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 13:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Please present the evidence that you have, especially since you claim it can be verified with the California court system. Since I live on the East coast, that might be kind of difficult for me. In lack of this evidence, I will trust Sarafina. Especially since was there in the courtroom, and I am left with the impression that you were not.(reply to this comment)

From reasons, reasons... Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 13:42 (Agree/Disagree?) why TF parents 'deserve' to have their children taken away. (Its very telling that you don't consider the child in all this and the 'reasons' why a 'backsliden' parent wouldn't want to leave their child with a Tf member parent.) Teachings/cult doctrine that requires outsiders--even more so for backsliders- to be prayed against. Division, character assassination for 'being out of gods will' lied to. not able to be left alone with child--due to their influence, casting doubts etc.. possibly taken away to another country or part of the world. unaware of address of child, due to 'security reasons'. little or no influence on their upbringing, education or well-being. would you leave your child in a cult? and would they grow up and thank you for it? I don't think so! I would say the cult is an aggressor! This can be verified by countless ex-SGA's and ex-members. (reply to this comment)

From so many reasons... Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 13:53 (Agree/Disagree?) not to mention that he would have to grow up with a child raping lying leader ( Karen Zerby AKA Rhianna Smith) as his spiritual guide--who talks to a dead false prophet pedophile who tells him to pretend to be a woman in the spirit and physically wank off to and imagine himself making love to jesus! (reply to this comment)

From I get the feeling.... Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 13:38 (Agree/Disagree?) that you are just a current TF member believing all the leis that TF spits out non stop. Have you actually BEEN to the court system to verify these "facts"? If so then how did you go about doing that, what building did you go to and what method did you use to find this information? Excuse me if I don't take your word for it, TF has not exactly had a history of honesty when the truth will shine light on how twisted they truly are.(reply to this comment)

From figaro Friday, November 30, 2007, 18:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Good for you sarafina, keep the truth told. I would love to hear what any member has to say in actual response to these facts.(reply to this comment)

from Phoenixkidd Friday, November 30, 2007 - 12:32 (Agree/Disagree?) Good for Paul! Another child rescued from that cult to finally live a decent normal life with a loving Dad---Good for you! (reply to this comment)

from solemn Friday, November 30, 2007 - 09:54 (Agree/Disagree?) This is awesome. (reply to this comment)

from figaro Friday, November 30, 2007 - 08:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Thats great news, you can really see the happiness in the fathers face, I'm so glad for him. Some one tell me how to go about writing an affidavit that can be used in the other case(s?) and what are the important things to put into it. (reply to this comment)

From Haunted Friday, November 30, 2007, 08:37 (Agree/Disagree?) If you send an email to Sarafina off this site she'll be able to give you the formatt that we used for our statements/affidavits and the things that are/were needed in them. (reply to this comment)

from Falcon Friday, November 30, 2007 - 07:32 (Agree/Disagree?) I hope being left hanging high and dry by TFI will go some way towards helping the mother leave the cult. This will set a precedent for other similar cases in future. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm celebrating! (reply to this comment)

From charity Saturday, January 19, 2008, 00:01 (Agree/Disagree?) But they havent left her high and dry. I heard they are paying her and her boyfriend of 20 3K a month to live together in their apartment etc.. Its kinda hush hush because her boyfriend is a leaders son, and other people in her shoes wouldnt get this kind of good treatment. She has it good. Also many family ppl. dont even know about this victory. Its all kind of a shadowy subject(reply to this comment)

From Haunted Friday, November 30, 2007, 08:42 (Agree/Disagree?) I think it's sad - when one of their generation was about to lose a child (Pearl) they fought tooth and nail and spent thousands of dollars defending themselves and spinning their web of deceit. However, when one of their own children is put in the situation they cower behind their "Christian affiliations" while distancing themselves from the controversy. As a mother, my heart breaks for her - but I also left the cult because I knew that it was NO place to raise my child. I'm so proud of Paul and his courage to stand up and fight this sometimes intimidating beast that is the FI and their cohorts. (reply to this comment)

From Jailbird Saturday, January 19, 2008, 02:49 (Agree/Disagree?) Perl's case cost close to 1 million when all was said and done. Most of that came out of Perl's trust fund and a few other suckers who gave up their inheritance to W.S. to pay for the court procedings. And yes, they'll drop, deny, lie etc., that's their way. The shepherds laying down the sheep for their lives in true Bergesque fashion. (reply to this comment)

From Jailbird Saturday, January 19, 2008, 16:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Sorry, I should say the legal fees were close to 1 million, the cost of the case was much more when you factor in living for the court case team, as well as the ferrying in and out of witnesses, hiding of witnesses etc. .. (reply to this comment)

From charity Thursday, December 06, 2007, 11:48 (Agree/Disagree?) But I heard that the family paid all her legal fees, wich were up to 40000.00. I am guessing she got special help because her boyfriend (Jer) is a leaders son. (Toms/ of Eva or formerly Keda)(reply to this comment)

From afflick Thursday, December 06, 2007, 11:55 (Agree/Disagree?) I believe TF did pay her legal fees. How else could she afford all these court apperances? After all, filing for full custody was her idea and she wouldn't have attempted it if she didn't think she could pay for the court costs. (reply to this comment)

From Jailbird Saturday, January 19, 2008, 02:42 (Agree/Disagree?) Family leadership overplayed their hand in this situation. They thought that they could push paul around, underestimated his resolve as well the help of those who put themselves on the line coming forward about their abuse etc., in court docs, to help him keep custody of his son. It's rare in the U.S. court system that a father gets full custody as the courts are usually partial to mothers. As soon as the cult compound started to get scrutiny, they moved her out into an appartment that they paid for I suppose during the procedings. Now that it's over, I doubt that they're going to keep them on the dole, they're very cheap and do not much care for the wellbeing of the individual. (reply to this comment)

From charity Monday, December 10, 2007, 13:06 (Agree/Disagree?) That is what makes me really angry. She now lives in a 3 bedroom apartment, and the family is giving her and her 20 yr old bf over 3 grand for living and expenses a month. These 2 able-bodied young brats can certainly get a job! There are some poor hard working old ppl, and hungry family ppl in general striving to make some money in India, China, Africa to give to her and her bf sitting around lazily in the states? The group makes no sense?!(reply to this comment)

From Shaka Thursday, December 06, 2007, 12:24 (Agree/Disagree?) Heh, didn't you know? The Lord always raises up sheepy lawyers free of cost. (reply to this comment)

From figaro Monday, December 10, 2007, 14:31 (Agree/Disagree?) SHIT, if Jesus himself needed a lawyer and offered them a mansion in heaven they still wouldn't do it without a cash payment also. lol(reply to this comment)

From Falcon Friday, November 30, 2007, 09:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes, quite ironic considering these parents are being advised to file for custody of their children, and when they follow council, they are then left on their own without backing in the end. I wonder if this is indicative of a lack of finances as well?(reply to this comment)

From Don't forget Friday, November 30, 2007, 09:14 (Agree/Disagree?) that 'Pearl' and her husband are wealthy by family standards, both being trust fund babies. (reply to this comment)

From exfamily Friday, November 30, 2007, 11:32 (Agree/Disagree?) The Pearl case was always a mystery to me as a child, and I still don't know anything about it. Is there some info somewhere about it? (Or is it the case that Justice Ward presided over?)(reply to this comment)

From vix Friday, November 30, 2007, 12:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes, that is the one, (reply to this comment)

From figaro Friday, November 30, 2007, 08:33 (Agree/Disagree?) Yea, use it to show that this cult that demands all your time, money, and life; that claims to be there for you till the bitter end will really just tuck tail and run, leaving you all alone in a world/situation that they gave you NO preparation for. This amusingly makes me think of TFs whole "are you prepared?" motto. Better grab your fleebags kids!! LOL!(reply to this comment)

from Haunted Friday, November 30, 2007 - 06:57 (Agree/Disagree?) Congratulations Paul - knew you'd do it! However, I wonder how the cult will interpret this one? I chuckle to myself to think of the prophecies and other nonsense that will be made up about this ruling. (reply to this comment)

from Congratulations Paul Friday, November 30, 2007 - 03:14 (Agree/Disagree?) praise be! (reply to this comment)

from vix Friday, November 30, 2007 - 02:53 (Agree/Disagree?) What great news. Sarafina, I admire you for so tirelessly working on behalf of others, you are a gem of a woman. (reply to this comment)

from rainy Friday, November 30, 2007 - 02:03 (Agree/Disagree?) I still hope the mother can maintain contact. It said she left the commune, so there's hope. This will all be very stressful for the little boy, I'm sure. How does a five year old "get good grades" in kindergarten? My thoughts are with them all. (reply to this comment)

From JP200 Saturday, January 19, 2008, 17:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually I know the kid. One of his best lil' buddies is my nephew. He's doing fine!(reply to this comment)

From vix Friday, November 30, 2007, 03:02 (Agree/Disagree?) Why would she not be able to maintain contact? She has a legal right to see him one day a week and two weekends a month. In the end, if she ceases to see him it will most likely be of her own volition. (reply to this comment)

From rainy Friday, November 30, 2007, 03:09 (Agree/Disagree?) yeah didn't read it properly the first time I think. I only realised after I clicked submit. I guess the fact that it's a 5-year-old boy (like I have) has me straight into the mother's shoes, and back in time to when I almost lost my baby.(reply to this comment)

From vix Friday, November 30, 2007, 03:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes, I can understand that. I felt very sad for her when I watched the video, and for the boy. If only life were ideal, eh. (reply to this comment)

From sarafina Friday, November 30, 2007, 09:32 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah, I felt sad too for her, for about two minutes, till I remembered that she was the one who brought this on. At the time they were sharing custody she had him during the week and Paul on the weekends an arrangement they had agreed on together and was working well. Paul also had access to the home the child was living in and could monitor who was living with his son. Remember it was the family who talked the mother into filing for full custody and cut off Paul’s access to the home. The Mother wanted to move and take the child out of the country to a home in Mexico with her new B/f (Peter Amsterdam’s son) She cave no consideration to how the father would feel about this, nor cared if he saw his child again. Paul however has been very considerate of the mother and wants to insure that she is able to see him and she will be able to the only difference is he can monitor it and ensure his son can get a proper education.(reply to this comment)

From Summer Friday, November 30, 2007, 14:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Wow, Paul really fed you a pack of lies. Sarafina, you're very misinformed on key details and you may want to check out your facts before you slander someone who has never done a thing to you. (reply to this comment)

From charity Wednesday, December 05, 2007, 21:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Summer was fed a pack of lies by Angie that can easlily be cleared up if she actually reads the court files and knows what shes talking about!(reply to this comment)

From Shaka Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 14:16 (Agree/Disagree?) Jesus speaking: Dear one/slut, keep tickling my ass while you blow me and I'll tell you anything you wanna hear...this case was a great victory (in deep deep disguise)...I will continue to fight on your behalf...ohhh yeah, right there...this is all part of my master plan...do you actually believe this crap?...nothing, go get me a towel. (reply to this comment)

From JJttt Saturday, January 05, 2008, 03:09 (Agree/Disagree?) Whats up Satanist? (im jokeing ok) First Of why the hell are you even registered in this site? Are you actually gonna make me belive you left the Fammily asuming you were in your teens and some how happened to meet a much older ex fammily woman? Hell no! and even if u were in the fammily the point is what are you doing? Ya answer that, your acting like a total jerk in general dude, Why does your invasion of Iraq (or whichever sand ridden oil abounding country your "Boss" (President Bush) ) have anything to your interest with a case of a mother and father battleing for their son??? Now disregarding mocking and disgustingly insulting "The Cult and "That woman" really couldunt compare to takeing orders from a man who is responsible for killing thousands of inocent ppl leaving them sometimes with half a body could it? Oh but hey even tho you could die or you could of kill an inocent person (eg. some iraqi individual defending his country) really isint worse then some screwed up ppl who did screwed up things in the fammily a long long and i mean long time ago right?. I guess maybe brainless f_cked up american assholes like you think it isint. Do me a favor smell the fresh air and get on with you life yeah thats right stop being a nerd on the net by not writeing s_it! cuz you dont have anything to do with the fammiy!!!!!! even if you were in the fammily or your just familiar with the family through you wife, you still dont have anything to do with it. Its history for u so in otherwords youre an insane man that will die, and when you do what will you do? Family Member (MM Status)(reply to this comment)

From JP200 Saturday, January 19, 2008, 16:58 (Agree/Disagree?) What is your fucking problem? Why the fuck are you registered on this site?? Aren't you supposed to be in the family? Your not allowed to curse you little peice of shit. Your one of those people that stick around in the fam because you think your gonna get a great reward, and you like getting free food and having chics put out to you on "Sacrificial dates" but you want to bend the rules to your own satisfaction and jump on ex-member websites because you think its cool to write shit, and fuck, and asshole and hope your home shepherd doesn't catch you..and don't talk shit about the GWOT either you fucking prick! Its funny that lots of family members have this ultra nai'ive idea that America is bad and Muslims are good. Let me tell you this much..if any Al quaeda or taliban dudes got their hands on you they wouldn't give two shits about whether you were on their side or not and they would happily saw your head of with a 3 inch blade and televise it on Al' Jezeera.If your lucky you'll get rescued and it will be by the evil american military too. You do realize that such family doctrines like the Law of Love would be grounds for public execution under Islamic Sharia law countries like Afghanistan or Iran right? I bet your an American citizen talking all this crap about your own government. You definitely never deployed to the war and have no idea what goes on..and it doesn't matter if you've gotten all riled up during inspiration time and sung "the food for fighters song", or "We have declared War of the spirit" or how you've "passed the ammunition and are on a mighty mission" your NO warrior or fighter and your certainly not an Elite troop!! LMFAO!! You don't even follow family beliefs..make up your mind..dick! Either your MM in the family and you do what your told and follow the rules or you get the fuck out! There's no Gray zone. PS: Do us all a favor and for once spell "Family" right. WTF is Fammmmmily??? It has one "m" you idiot! No one cares about your MM status bullshit either! US Marine DOD Member (Active Duty status)(reply to this comment)

From solemn Monday, January 14, 2008, 14:54 (Agree/Disagree?) You are a piss poor ambassador for your group. I'd venture to say that if your compatriots were to read your poorly structured arguments and miserable attempts at grammar and punctuation, even they might be embarrassed by you. That is all. (reply to this comment)

From figaro Sunday, January 13, 2008, 18:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Why is it that no family member can spell or structure sentences at anything above a kindergarten level? Dude, you ability to reason, is severely... MISSING! (And YES, its important to have one. Unless you are going to live your entire life doing what you are told and never thinking for yourself. Oh wait, never mind, I guess YOU don't need one!)(reply to this comment)

From Shaka Saturday, January 12, 2008, 19:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Why am I on this site? Why the hell are you on this site you little cultie fuck? Did Jeebus say you could take his cock out of your mouth and go on ex-member sites? I don't give a rats ass what you believe, your grammar skills show me you have the IQ of a mongoloid chimp. My tour of duty in Iraq has nothing to do with this custody case, but just in case you idiots get something right and the Antichrist does arise, I now have the training to stamp that ol' 666 on my forehead and go cultie hunting with the rest of the AC forces. I'd advise you to brush up on your fire breathing skills, cause a 5.56mm round hurts like a bitch in case I'm ever fortunate enough to get you in my sights (just ask Hajji). Now, you little piece of ignorant shit, go do what your diseased whore of a mother should have done with a coat hanger and stop wasting perfectly good air by breathing. (reply to this comment)

From Durka Durk Monday, January 14, 2008, 16:43 (Agree/Disagree?) I was just a boy when the infidels came into my village in their Black Hawk helicopters. The infidels fired at the oil fields and they lit up like the eyes of Allah. Burning oil rained down from the sky and cooked everything it touched. I could only hide myself and cry as my goats were consumed by the fire of black liquid death. In the midst of the chaos, I could swear that I heard my goats... screaming for help. As quickly as they'd come the infidels were gone. It was on that day... I put a jihad on them. And if you don't believe it, then you'd better kill me now, because I'll put a jihad on you too. (reply to this comment)

From figaro Monday, January 14, 2008, 23:32 (Agree/Disagree?) AHAHAHAHA AMERICA, FUCK YEA! Comin again to save the mutha fuckin day yah!!!!!!(reply to this comment)

From afflick Monday, January 14, 2008, 18:50 (Agree/Disagree?) Ummm, WTF?(reply to this comment)

From Shaka Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 10:14 (Agree/Disagree?) Obviously you have been neglecting your word time and not heeding the words of the prophets Trey Parker and Matt Stone, blessings and peace be upon them. Come out of the wings and back to the temple, O Prodigal son. (reply to this comment)

From Cartman Saturday, January 19, 2008, 18:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Haha. Jttt, you got totally pwned. Uber pwnage. (reply to this comment)

From What? So you are saying it's JJT time? Saturday, January 05, 2008, 03:19 (Agree/Disagree?) time to clean up this mess?(reply to this comment)

From figaro Friday, November 30, 2007, 22:38 (Agree/Disagree?) I thought king penis told you members not to look at ex member sites!?!(reply to this comment)

From JJttt Saturday, January 05, 2008, 03:23 (Agree/Disagree?) King what? I mean if you said queen vagina it would be an understandable insult, but considering the fact your guy. How can you say that without looking like a gay immature geek? Damn maybe the dude said not to go to ex member sites. But any member like me would love to tell you YOU JUST STILL CANT GET ON WITH YOU LIFE CAN YOU?? but hey go on make whine and makeurslef better on stuppid postings cuz thats really all ur dumb ass is capable of doing isint it? Wait! I got an idea try Jesus he can help you, you just need faith man ask him to erase all that shit about the past even if it is wrong what ppl did. Cuz in the end you really dont want to keep going on with your life stuck in the past right? (reply to this comment)

From figaro Sunday, January 13, 2008, 18:07 (Agree/Disagree?) WOW, where do I begin with this piece of astonishing stupidity? "king penis" is not an insult, Neither is "queen vagina" if thats what you call an insult then you must have grown up in a cave... oh, wait.. never mind! Please explain to me how referring to someone as "king penis" makes anyone look like a gay geek, (not that you would even know the first thing about gays and what defines them) The reason I called him that is because he is "king" of a sex cult, but even as simple as that is, I guess it still went over your head. And of course any member would love to tell me that, thats what all you blind ignorant sheep have been told so why would you think anything else, in fact, why would you even bother to THINK at all? I have gone on with life, you think all we do is sit around and think about the past? Please, don't flatter yourselves. Did you make sure to pray and ask jesus before posting this? Did he confirm that we are all a bunch of losers who can't get on with life? If so then why don't you ask him how we all manage to make a living and support ourselves and our families if we do nothing but dwell in the past. I would love to hear what he tells you the answer to that is. Now, before I respond to your sentence "but hey go on make whine and makeurslef better on stuppid postings cuz thats really all ur dumb ass is capable of doing isint it?" could you kindly explain to me what the HELL it says? Did you never learn how to spell or properly structure sentences? Where the hell did you go to school?. Oh, wait, never mind! Let me give you a bit of advice, don't call someone else stupid when you can't even spell the word! Even if you could spell it, calling someone whom you know nothing about stupid, only displays your own stupidity! Next time, pray a little harder before you post, and maybe download a spell checking program too!(reply to this comment)

From shikaka Saturday, January 05, 2008, 08:57 (Agree/Disagree?) Hello assclown. Firstly, I did try your advice of asking Jeebus to erase all the memories of abuse from my past. I began to feel warm and tingly, and then I felt strong arms encircling my...WTF?! Those arent arms, those are scrawny calves, and the chocolate starfish of the almighty is inches from my supplicant nose! And I hear the loving voice of my creator booming down, telling me that giving him a RUSTY TROMBONE is my highest calling! Fuck! Now. I understand that by now you are feeling very confused. Not only did you understand 0% of the pop culture references in the last sentence, your command of English and your combined IQ make it impossible for you to meaningfully process anything that I am saying right now. When I read comments from people like you, I become filled with a powerful lust for a power drill, a taser, and a Glock. Thank you for giving me something to live for. (reply to this comment)

From Dirty Sanchez Saturday, January 19, 2008, 17:59 (Agree/Disagree?) Rolling on the floor laughing out loud. (reply to this comment)

From then a shepard hands you a broom and a mop Saturday, January 05, 2008, 03:33 (Agree/Disagree?) i wanna see those floors sparkle, you hear?(reply to this comment)

From sarafina Friday, November 30, 2007, 16:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Oops sorry yes afflick is correct, I apologize, I didn't get the b/f 's parents name correct, I hardly think that small mistake constitutes slander, its not really a relevant point anyways but you are right I don't want to post anything that is incorrect. but other then that all the rest is correct and factual. I have been closely working with and following this case for over a year now and have read over much of the submitted material and depositions, court documents ect. and will be posting the material evidence to back this up as soon as its put together and available. I have nothing against the mother and have met her a few times when before she rejoined the family, personally think she was nice enough however this isn't about her personality or wither she did anything to me or not but more about the advice she chose to follow and decisions she made and the way she wanted to raise her kid in a cult.(reply to this comment)

From Dissonant Friday, November 30, 2007, 15:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Do lies come in a pack? I have only ever been able to purchase them individually. This is great news because one lie has never been enough to really fill me up. (reply to this comment)

From cultassassin Friday, November 30, 2007, 18:58 (Agree/Disagree?) No, they come in bunches. Also, why the hell are you purchasing them when you can get them for free at www.thefamily.org???(reply to this comment)

From JJttt Saturday, January 05, 2008, 03:31 (Agree/Disagree?) man the only place lies are coming out of is you ass! Growing up didnt you dream of becomeing a fireman or a cowboy or perhaps a movie star, but a "Cult Assasin" wow never knew youd grow up to be that one day did you? Well its too late, I guess becomeing a movie star was a much better choice in the end wasint it?(reply to this comment)

From JP200 Saturday, January 19, 2008, 17:19 (Agree/Disagree?) Honestly dude you really suck..your making a complete ass out of yourself here. Your spelling is atrocious and your arguments are stupid. Your way, way, way out of your league! Your getting trampled all over!Go away already and saver yourself some dignity!(reply to this comment)

From solemn Monday, January 14, 2008, 15:24 (Agree/Disagree?) This is fascinating. I can only wonder what inspiration trickles through your mind as you stamp out this terrible vengeance on your keyboard. (reply to this comment)

From AndyH Saturday, December 01, 2007, 12:28 (Agree/Disagree?) They also come in webs and fathers. (reply to this comment)

From Don't Forget the Mothers Saturday, December 01, 2007, 14:56 (Agree/Disagree?) They can be full of lies too. Or maybe they are just less absent than some fathers and get more chances to lie to you.(reply to this comment)

From afflick Friday, November 30, 2007, 15:14 (Agree/Disagree?) There is one more discrepancy I just thought of. Paul's attorney said something along the lines that K. is living with a bunch of adults between the ages of 25-30 (true) but neglected to add that there are also bunches of young Family kids in the area, due to our peers ever-expanding families. I wonder why he would try to put that particular spin on the situation when the real issue (that Kyle would not be given the tools to forge ahead outside TF as an adult) is valid on its own. Was this perhaps just a misunderstanding on the lawyer's part?(reply to this comment)

From charity Monday, December 10, 2007, 13:13 (Agree/Disagree?) Well, the home apparently only had 1 baby and another kid not his age. So really, he had no children his age to play with. He did not even know how to relate to children his age, as he was around, and pretty much only speaking to adults. I heard it was a big adjustment for him bieng in school. Good for Paul!(reply to this comment)

From afflick Friday, November 30, 2007, 14:56 (Agree/Disagree?) The only discrepancy I could find in Sarafina's comment was that Angie is not dating Peter Amsterdam's son but the son of another big Family leader. There! Facts checked!(reply to this comment)

From Samuel Friday, November 30, 2007, 15:42 (Agree/Disagree?) Okay, so afflick has been good enough to point out one discrepancy and one ommission. What else do you have, Summer? Put up or shut up! (reply to this comment)

From Albatross Friday, November 30, 2007, 14:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Summer....you are early... The Family's counterattack and offensive is not supposed to happen until 2008. But big kudos to you for sticking up for a child abusing cult. Your reward will be great in heaven.(reply to this comment)

From JJttt Saturday, January 05, 2008, 03:42 (Agree/Disagree?) It WAS a child abuseing cult (as in there were cases of that back in history) YO! PPL we all know about certain ppl who were screwed up you cant hide it!! Not is! OK NOT IS a child abusing cult! Your outlook on things is so past tense! (reply to this comment)

From WTF??? Saturday, January 05, 2008, 13:42 (Agree/Disagree?) JJtt wrote "It WAS a child abuseing cult (as in there were cases of that back in history" Back in history? My childhood was not "Back in History" You make it sound like we were abused by a Mongol horde.(reply to this comment)

From shikaka Saturday, January 05, 2008, 09:19 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah! Right on! ITS A REVOLUTION.....FOR JEEBUS! Its kinda the same with the Jews, Its no big deal that millions of them were slaughtered, and an entire generation destroyed...Its in the past! People's outlook on the Holocaust is SOOO PAST TENSE!(reply to this comment)

From .......... Saturday, January 05, 2008, 05:23 (Agree/Disagree?) "The nature of psychological compulsion is such that those who act under constraint remain under the impression that they are acting on their own initiative. The victim of mind-manipulation does not know that he is a victim. To him the walls of his prison are invisible, and he believes himself to be free. That he is not free is apparent only to other people. His servitude is strictly objective." Brave New World Revisited, Aldous Huxley, 1958(reply to this comment)

From Zerby don't sound .... Saturday, January 05, 2008, 04:16 (Agree/Disagree?) too sorry here(see link) for 'past' abuses. http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Vandari(reply to this comment)

From histories data: case upon case! Saturday, January 05, 2008, 04:14 (Agree/Disagree?) Case closed! or shall i say opening soon?(reply to this comment)

From shikaka Friday, November 30, 2007, 14:23 (Agree/Disagree?) Check facts? With whom? The Family International? Jesus? Maybe you could get a prophecy about this and clear the air. (reply to this comment)

From Samuel Friday, November 30, 2007, 14:13 (Agree/Disagree?) Welcome to the site, Summer! Are you suggesting that you know more about the situation than Sarafina does? If so, how would you like to enlighten us? Where is Sarafina wrong? Who is she slandering, and how? (reply to this comment)

From JJttt Saturday, January 05, 2008, 03:52 (Agree/Disagree?) GOD DAMIT! Who are you to so sweetly welcome anyone to this site? DO ME A FAVOR AND BAG YOURE BITTER SELF THE WAY YOU BAG GROCERIES Welcome to the site, Sammy! (see what a nerd i just sounded like? )(reply to this comment)

From JP200 Saturday, January 19, 2008, 17:24 (Agree/Disagree?) That's it dude..the more I read your dumbass comments the more pissed off I get. Tell me where your at so I can beat your fucking ass. That will help me feel so much better!(reply to this comment)

From figaro Saturday, January 05, 2008, 23:13 (Agree/Disagree?) uummm.. you signed up less then 24 hours ago, you have no right to tell, or call anyone ANYTHING!(reply to this comment)

From shikaka Saturday, January 05, 2008, 09:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Seriously, Fuck off. Everyone thinks Samuel is a retard but only we are allowed to say it. Im going to take your mother out to a nice lobster dinner, and then never call her again! Oh...wait...nevermind, she's in The Family, thats probably how she likes it!(reply to this comment)

From Lithium Saturday, January 05, 2008, 05:30 (Agree/Disagree?) Strong words coming from a troll who has proven him/herself to be an uneducated tard in all their above rants. For more effective communication with us "vandari apostates": - Try good grammar and spelling: though not a prerequisite and may be difficult for you considering your obvious lack of education, your poor usage of the English language still does not do you any favours. - Writing like you're foaming at the mouth simply causes one to question who are really the "vengeful and bitter"? - Before you come on and "make a stand" for your cult, try and get your facts straight, don't just ramble off a load of bullshit you've been fed by your leaders, who are themselves the instigators of much of the abuse you claim is "in the past". - Though it pains me to bring up any appearance of a defense for Sammy, who I am sure is capable of defending himself, in principle, Sammy as an "ex-member" has more of a "right" to welcome people like you to this site than you have to comment on his welcome. (I find myself needing to put a hell of a lot of words in quotations when writing to a family member, ugh!) - Lastly, you said these abuses do not happen at present. Are you so sure? Although they may not be institutionalized as they once were, if you will look in your Love Charter, you will see that it specifically states that if a crime should occur, or an abuse happen, members are not allowed to report it to the police or authorities, or risk losing their membership. I'm sorry, but I have heard of a number of cases where abuses have indeed occurred over the last ten years, and at best the abuser got a slap on the hand and was simply sent to a different country and different family home. Pedophilia is a disease. It is not a passing fad that you enjoy one day, and hate the next. It is something that needs treatment, or the inclination never leaves and will pop its ugly head up again and again. If you look into the histories of a good many of your family leaders, you will note that they all carry around cupboards loaded with skeletons.- Must be a heavy burden to bear. They have never faced the music or paid the fiddler, but oh the merry jigs they have danced. Trust me when I say, that payment will be required in full. So while it may be in their past, the past has a way of catching up with you. When their day of reckoning comes, you can be sure that I will be booking a front row seat.(reply to this comment)

From 3jinosos Saturday, January 05, 2008, 18:39 (Agree/Disagree?) lighten up! knowing how to spell, use correct grammar and proper punctuation is a rarity. honestly i've haven't been on other sites where users make this topic a big issue like all of you do. sentences not capitalized on purpose!!(reply to this comment)

From Lithium Sunday, January 06, 2008, 04:31 (Agree/Disagree?) It is precisely because I know how much people harp on spelling and grammar on this site, that I suggested to JJtt that he up his standard if he wants people on here taking him seriously. It was a "tip" not a reprimand. Also, coming on here ranting with that kind of poor English only strengthens the point that the kids in the cult are not, in fact, receiving as adequate an education as they claim to be. It may be hard to understand, but as someone helpfully pointed out below, it is because of our lack of it that we now place such importance upon knowledge and education. We found ourselves in the world with nothing but our minds, and believe me when I say that the value I place on mine is incalculable. So perhaps the reason that many of us put such emphasis on the whole grammar/spelling issue is because maintaining a high standard becomes, at least to myself, a direct manifestation of how far we can and have come in using our brains, and perhaps reflects a certain amount of pride in our ability to educate ourselves and succeed out in the world despite our original deficiencies. Others may not feel the same way, and I do not judge anyone who can't spell, but I appreciate and respect those who put forth the effort to do so. That said, you will usually find that those who are constantly correcting peoples spelling, esp. when it's obviously a slip of the finger or typo, usually do so more as a joke than anything else.(reply to this comment)

From vix Saturday, January 05, 2008, 19:07 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't know what crowd you mix with, but I can assure you that in my circle knowing how to spell, punctuate and use proper grammar certainly isn't a rarity. I mean no offense, but you are a visitor here and most likely have little true understanding of the dynamics of our community or our individual motivations for harping on certain issues. I ask that you respect our right to write what we want on this forum, and also that you refrain from admonishing people. It comes across as terribly rude to invade our space like that. If you don't like what people say here you might say so without speaking out of turn, as it were. Or you could choose to say nothing at all unless you actually have something of value to add. Best wishes for 2008. (reply to this comment)

From 3jinosos Saturday, January 05, 2008, 20:32 (Agree/Disagree?) oh vix, you do need to lighten up. I married one from "your community" nearly 20 years ago. he was one of the first kids in TFI and the ringleader Teen Terror. I assure you, I'm disfunctional. That's the reason we've been married so long. A perfect disfunctional union... I enjoy reading this site; however, the harping about spelling, punctuation and grammar has gotten tiresome. We all know about the denial of a decent education. Not that my education in the public school system could be considered decent, but that subject would be "speaking out of turn" as you so eloquently put it. I am wondering if other in "you community" agree with miss vix. Do you consider expressing my opinion terribly rude and invasive? On the flip side, I don't consider your comment to add value so please refrain.....lol HAVE A NICE DAY! I'll go post on the adult survivors of drug addicted parents forum. C ya.... (reply to this comment)

From vix couldn't sign in Sunday, January 06, 2008, 02:20 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm sorry that you obviously did take offense. As clearly stated it was not my intention. I know how to read, I had already seen your profile and I know how long you've been married to an exer. When I used the term, 'community' I was *not* referring to the whole of the ex member community. I was referring to *this* community, which has a dynamic of its own and whose members interact within certain general patterns. Come and read here, by all means. Ask questions or make contributions, you are welcome to do so. But don't presume too much. I'm sorry if I make too much of an 'us and them' issue about it (actually I'm not really, but you know, figure of speech) but I will always defend my right to post here without lectures or disrespectful comments from visitors to the site. "I enjoy reading this site; however, the harping about spelling, punctuation and grammar has gotten tiresome." I'm sorry you find it tiresome. Many others do too. But no one is forcing you to read here. Unfortunately I think that if you want to frequent the site, you'll probably have to put up with it as I very much doubt that everyone here is going to tailor their comments to suit your personal opinion. People don't actually make such a big deal of it anymore, IMO. But that's just my subjective opinion, of course. "Not that my education in the public school system could be considered decent, but that subject would be "speaking out of turn" as you so eloquently put it." No, that's actually not the point I was making. I'm all for insightful and stimulating contributions regardless of who is making them. What I was referring to was your general manner of address, which I took exception to. "I am wondering if other in "you community" agree with miss vix. Do you consider expressing my opinion terribly rude and invasive?" Again, it's not the act of expression that I find offensive, it's the way in which you go about it. Further, whether or not anyone else agrees with me, I am still far more entitled to making my opinion known here than you ever will be. Again, I'm not in any way trying to put up barriers here. I think you probably have some very interesting things to say, given your personal relationship with your husband and the length of time that you have known him, not to mention your own experiences. I'd be glad to hear some more about it. But I guess I'm protective of this site and its members, and I probably always will be. This is our space. You seem to find it hard to accept that you are not considered by me to be 'one of us'. Why anyone would want to fit neatly into this demographic, I'm not exactly sure but I suppose that's beside the point. I'm sure that marriage to an ex member has given you a fair bit of insight into our upbringing, and from what you say I'm sure there are plenty of parallels in your and our respective experiences, and in how we deal with the effects of them. But the fact remains that regardless of the many similarities, you will not be able to relate directly to the cult experience because it is not your experience. I don't want to be awkward, but I just didn't appreciate the tone of your comment. Hopefully this terribly longwinded comment has helped to clarify my position and I hope you understand that I really have no problem with you personally or your presence here. (reply to this comment)

From fragiletiger Sunday, January 06, 2008, 02:48 (Agree/Disagree?) http://www.joppeluiten.nl/dearjohn.htm (reply to this comment)

From I am glade you brought it up FT. Sunday, January 06, 2008, 03:31 (Agree/Disagree?) I am no one to talk but, it seems like quite a few people on this sight have issues with grammar and Punctuation. A while back I was quite distraught over an apparent accidental lack of a comma. It is weird bring it up esp. now but, I felt like without the comma my identity had been striped away. I know I tend to overreact but, I guess that is just something I am sensitive to. As far as grammar and punctuation is concerned I believe it is very important and it is a topic many people here are aware of and rather sensitive about especially if it is not up to par. (reply to this comment)

From fragiletiger Sunday, January 06, 2008, 02:48 (Agree/Disagree?) http://www.joppeluiten.nl/dearjohn.htm (reply to this comment)

From vix Sunday, January 06, 2008, 02:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Argh, I guess it *did* work the first time around. I'm sorry for subjecting you all to my wordiness twice over! (reply to this comment)

From vix Sunday, January 06, 2008, 01:28 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm sorry that you obviously did take offense. As clearly stated it was not my intention. I know how to read, I had already seen your profile and I know how long you've been married to an exer. When I used the term, 'community' I was *not* referring to the whole of the ex member community. I was referring to *this* community, which has a dynamic of its own and whose members interact within certain general patterns. Come and read here, by all means. Ask questions or make contributions, you are welcome to do so. But don't presume too much. I'm sorry if I make too much of an 'us and them' issue about it (actually I'm not really, but you know, figure of speech) but I will always defend my right to post here without lectures or disrespectful comments from visitors to the site. "I am wondering if other in "you community" agree with miss vix. Do you consider expressing my opinion terribly rude and invasive? " You seem to find it hard to accept that you are not considered by me to be 'one of us'. Why anyone would want to fit neatly into this demographic, I'm not exactly sure but I suppose that's beside the point. I'm sure that marriage to an ex member has given you a fair bit of insight into our upbringing, and from what you say I'm sure there are plenty of parallels in your and our respective experiences. But the fact remains that regardless of the many similarities, you will not be able to relate directly to the cult experience because it is not your experience. However that, too, is beside the point because the reason why I make the distinction actually has little to do with the above. I make the distinction because this is a place for ex members to interact and (reply to this comment)

From Excellent ! Lithium, Saturday, January 05, 2008, 17:25 (Agree/Disagree?) I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out to be a full house! I strongly agree with what you have written here. Indeed, crimes have been committed and the criminals continue on so, I don’t see any crime in fighting for justice. (reply to this comment)

From Samuel Saturday, January 05, 2008, 04:41 (Agree/Disagree?) I was pointing out that Summer had just registered. I guess you're too dense to figure that out.(reply to this comment)

From vix Friday, November 30, 2007, 10:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes, I realise that she brought it on herself, and don't misunderstand me, I'm VERY happy about the conclusion of the case. I am sad for her because I know how I would feel were I in her shoes, and while she technically is the one who brought it about, I'm sure that family leadership 'counselled' her very strongly as to what she should do. Hopefully this is the beginning of a happier ending for each of those involved. (reply to this comment)

From sarafina Friday, November 30, 2007, 10:24 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh I agree with you completely and yes she was certainly pushed by the family to do this! I was just making a comment in general for those who may not be aware, sorry I placed it under yours I know you weren't thinking that. How are you btw? I've missed talking with you, I come on here and read your comments every now and then,intelligent and entertaining as always. Xoxo(reply to this comment)

From vix Sunday, December 02, 2007, 14:07 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm very well thank you! Hope it's the same for you :) (reply to this comment)

from neez Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 22:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Thanks. (reply to this comment)

from exfamily Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 22:38 (Agree/Disagree?) Fantastic, great news! (reply to this comment)

from madly Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 21:51 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't know why, but for some reason I became emotional while watching that video. His son is so lucky and I am happy for both of them. Maybe it will even help the mother to leave, who knows... (reply to this comment)

From sarafina Friday, November 30, 2007, 00:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually I did too, I know it sounds silly but I started crying too, I was just thinking wow, one child has a chance that many of us didn't, to start fresh. IF I never do another thing(which I don't plan on doing) I will be happy that I helped one child. I don't even know if he will truly appreciate the freedom he has been given. All these years I've been taking in friends and kids who were leaving many of whom were emotionally handicap ,struggling alone or lost like myself, starting out as adults in a world they weren't prepared for who never had choices before. I always used to think how it would be if the younger children could be helped and given the chances we didn't have. The fact is they may do something with it or not but the cool thing is they will have the choice to be who they want. Freedom of choice is an amazing rush. I still get it everyday in the little things I do, opening my fridge and eating what I want, driving where I want, hanging out with the friends I choose, studding what I want , reading what I want, everything... There is still another court case going on with Amy and her three kids...I only hope for them it will be the same..which is why we need everyone of you to help to share what you know and have been through..remember if you want to send in an affidavit you still can make a difference..write me an email. The affidavits you sent for Paul's case are being used in this case as well and most likely will be on record for future cases.(reply to this comment)

From lord I wish.... Friday, November 30, 2007, 22:53 (Agree/Disagree?) I could be studding what I want....(reply to this comment)

from Albatross Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 21:16 (Agree/Disagree?) This is very good news. I am happy for Paul and his son. Let's hope this is just the beginning. Finally a judge is not swayed by TFI's smoke screen. The fight continues. (reply to this comment)

from GoldenMic Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 19:40 (Agree/Disagree?) This has been a long ride for those of us watching this case closely, and it was a wonderful triumph to hear the judge's ruling! (reply to this comment)