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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from lucidchick
Monday, October 17, 2005 - 14:52
 (Agree/Disagree?)
I just watched the show on Australian 60 Minutes online. I want to say "thank you" to Tracy, Richard and Natalie for your courage.
http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/sixtyminutes/stories/2005_10_16/story_1529.asp
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from Whatzup?
Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 08:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
It seems that "Dr. Phil" is having a few problems of his own...from what I understand, it isn't the first time.
http://www.casewatch.org/civil/drphil/classactioncomplaint.shtml
"Dr. Phil" McGraw Facing Class-Action Suit
Stephen Barrett, M.D.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-drphil3oct03,1,2939897.story?coll=la-
Class Status Sought for 'Dr. Phil' Diet Case
By Molly Selvin, Times Staff Writer
The man famous for advising bitter couples and sullen teens on camera is getting counsel himself these days - from lawyers.
A suit that targets "Dr. Phil" McGraw claims the popular TV psychologist defrauded his fans with an ill-fated venture into the diet-supplement business.
Three disgruntled customers, who filed the suit last year in Los Angeles County Superior Court, now are seeking national class-action status for the complaint, which could expand it to include thousands of plaintiffs. A judge could rule on the question early next year.
With his Texas drawl and a deep reservoir of homilies, McGraw parlayed his regular appearances on Oprah Winfrey's talk show into his own syndicated show starting in 2002. He dived into the lucrative weight-loss market in
mid-2003 with a campaign that included advice books, a prime-time special with Katie Couric on obesity and dieting, and his "Shape Up! with Dr. Phil McGraw" products.
The lawsuit centers on the Shape Up! items - shakes, bars and multivitamins made by Irving, Texas-based CSA Nutraceuticals that were sold for almost a year in pharmacies, supermarkets and at retailers such as Target and Wal-Mart.
Facing a Federal Trade Commission investigation into false-advertising concerns, CSA Nutraceuticals agreed to stop making the product early last year.
The lawsuit alleges that McGraw made false and misleading assertions for the supplements, including claims that they would cause weight loss by promoting metabolism of fat and reducing carbohydrate cravings and appetite swings.
Plaintiffs said they lost money, not weight. They are seeking refunds and additional damages.
Lawyers for McGraw and codefendant CSA Nutraceuticals denied the false-advertising allegations but declined to comment further on the case.
According to the package label, Shape Up! supplements contained vitamins and minerals, along with herbs and other ingredients.
Consumers could choose the formulation - "apple" or "pear" - that most closely matched their body shape. A third formulation, called "The Intensifier" and taken in combination with one of the two others, was advertised to "take your weight management efforts to the next level."
The combination regimen required the user to swallow 22 pills daily at $120 a month.
The label on the multivitamin box said the pills "contain scientifically researched levels of ingredients that can help you change your behavior to take control of your weight."
"Well, that's nonsense," said Henry Rossbacher, a Los Angeles lawyer who is the lead attorney in this case. "We don't think there were any real clinical trials of these products and no real testing."
At least one nutritionist agrees. David Schardt, senior nutritionist with the Center for Science in the Public Interest, said, "There really isn't any real scientific basis for dietary supplements being able to discriminate between body types. 'Apple' and 'pear' are not scientifically specific categories."
These concerns prompted the Federal Trade Commission to investigate claims that Shape Up! helped dieters lose weight and that it worked better than a program of diet and exercise alone. But in March 2004, when CSA agreed to stop marketing the products, the FTC dropped its probe. Officials with the agency declined to comment.
(reply to this comment)
| from To My Cousin Kristi
Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 23:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
My wife, China, and I were born into The Family. We appeared together on the Dr. Phil show with Jim and Kristi La Mattery. I am Jim’s nephew and Kristi’s cousin.
I want to begin by saying, Kristi, I am proud you appeared on the Dr. Phil show. I know how hard it is to go on national television to let the world know that not only were you in The Family but that you were severely abused while in their care. Your sincerity in wanting to protect other children from what you went through is clear, and I know that you were willing to go on television for that cause. The Family ripped apart so many lives by their conviction that serving their construct of God was far more important than investing in their own children’s welfare. By appearing on television to make our case public, we are telling The Family that enough is enough. We will no longer allow them to discount our stories, nor issue a general apology that they expect us to accept. The Family must recognize their accountability over our brothers and sisters lives and their untimely deaths. It is only when they acknowledge the responsibility for what they have done to us that I will know they are worthy of the responsibility to care for those of our friends and siblings who remain in the group by operating under the law and protecting the rights of those children.
Kristi, I know you have issues with your Dad. As Dr. Phil asked, can you regain your trust for him? What a perfect question. But, how can you regain your trust for your dad? He was not there for you when you were abused and exploited; nor was he was around during your developmental years, when child and parent are supposed to build a foundation of love and trust. Your father was absent. In his stead, there was a cult and a mother who hated your father, and, in turn, asserted your father did not love you and was thus not worthy of your love for him. You were taught that your father was of "the world": a product of the a system which was to be hated. I know that is what they told me about Uncle Jim, and what they told me about my own mother. They had me believe that my mother was not to be trusted or loved just because she chose not to join The Family.
These effects of The Family’s lies will unfortunately remain with us until the day we die. No parents are perfect, however. Even under "normal" circumstances parents and children will always have issues on which they do not see eye to eye. One of my largest discoveries since reconnecting with my mother after 15 years was realizing that neither of us will ever be perfect. I have come to understand that by expecting my mother to be perfect, I only set her up for failure and me for disappointment. I had some pretty unrealistic expectations of my mother for many years. I felt our honeymoon of reconnecting would and should have lasted a lot longer than it did. My mother is always here for me now, but there are times when I am tempted to blame her still for not being around for me in the past. As a child, I wanted nothing more than a mother of my own blood who had a shoulder for me to cry on, who would kiss me good-night and pick me up when I fell. Many times as a child I felt defenseless and it caused me to shut my heart down, resolving that the only way I could cope was to turn off the love for my mom. When I was finally able to meet with her again, it was not the "Hollywood" reunion one might envision it to be. Instead, I had to learn how to re-kindle the love for her that was repressed in the corner of my soul and defend it, protect it, and cherish it until I could let it burn on its own. I had to realize that my feelings of abandonment were mutual and that my mother loved me more than I was willing to accept.
The past 10 months have been crazy for all of us. We have had our fair share of accomplishments and our setbacks in the quest to bring The Family to justice. At the end of the day, however, I feel confident that we can both sit back and enjoy what we have done thus far, what you have done, what the former Second Generation Adults have done, and what even your dad has done. Hey, we made it to Dr. Phil, and it did not even take as long as we thought it would! But with all of the good, we have definitely taken our fair share of low blows. You have, I have, and so has your dad. I feel badly about how your father was portrayed on the Dr. Phil show—and I do not think even you expected things to go that far as it was only about 3 months ago we were all enjoying each other’s company. If I can put one thing into perspective, Kristi, I want to remind that your father was not the one who abused you. It was your father who was fighting for you before you were kidnapped as a child. I recently had the opportunity to visit the San Diego Superior Court House and research your mother’s and Jim’s divorce case as I wanted to see for myself if everything he has told me about fighting for you was real. What I discovered blew me away. I was amazed at how hard your dad fought for full custody of you and Nina. Back in 81', it is documented that after your dad presented to the judge The Family’s literature "Child Brides" and "God’s Whores," he told the judge that he did not want you and Nina to be brought up as "whores" for The Family; and that if your mother was to receive custody of you he was afraid that you would disappear and lose you forever. He fought hard for you in 1981 when he was in his 20s, and he is fighting just as hard for you now. It was not his choice that he missed your childhood. I could not imagine the pain I would experience if, after fighting for custody for years, my son was stolen me, taken to and then abused by a sex cult, only to be returned to me emotionally traumatized and uneducated. This is how I was returned to my mom and how you were returned to your dad. That is a horror I hope no other parent has to experience, and one that your father will do everything possible to ensure will not be repeated. I hope that someday you will appreciate his efforts and accept that it was your mom, not your dad, who let you down.
As soon as the show was filmed, your dad contacted Dr. Phil’s producer to attain contact information for the counselor Dr. Phil had promised; and since then, he has been attending counseling sessions regularly in an effort to mend his personal conflicts and reconcile his relationship with you. I absolutely do not blame Jim for getting discouraged with counseling in the past. I, too, sometimes feel that most of our issues are too complex for traditionally trained counselors, which is why I was discouraged with their counsel. I have to say, however, that the counselor Dr. Phil arranged to talk with me and China is amazing, and I believe the one for you will be too. You made a promise to us and Dr. Phil on national television that you, too, would accept the help that Dr. Phil has provided. Kristi, I plead with you to uphold your promise of attending the therapy sessions made available to you weeks ago and work together with your dad to re-establish the relationship The Family has taken away from you. Do not let anyone or anything obstruct your reunion, and ultimately, our family’s reunion. You have a large family who loves you and cares for you more than you know. It is my dream for our family to heal from this and my hope that this situation will result in our family showing The Family that, in spite of all the years they took from us, they never took our spirits, they never took our love.
The best news I heard all day was that your brother, Jeff, had taken time to visit your dad, and that your sister, Nina, is in close contact with him. You have got a family over here that loves you and wants nothing more than for you to reconnect with your father and with us. We miss you.
Your cousin.
John Jr.
(reply to this comment)
|  From Jules
Wednesday, October 05, 2005, 13:24
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Could we please not get into another debate over Jim? It is not pleasant to see one's family name being bashed, and the LaMattery SGs are as much survivors as the rest of us.
John, when I met Kristi at Ricky's memorial, she told me she does not read this web site, so any letters posted to her here are not going to do any good. I do agree that it might be more effective to write to her personally. Your therapists can probably help with this process (mine has helped me with my own parents and issues in my own family a great deal).
John you, China, Kristi and Nina showed a great deal of courage on the Dr. Phil show and I am sure it will have an effect. You have my respect.
The thing that I appreciated the most about this show is that it was not just about the sensational nature of The Family and the horrific details of our abuse, but the focus was on what to do now and how to move on, or in Dr. Phil speak: "to do whatever it takes for you to say, 'I am walking out of my history. I will not live in this another minute.' "--If it was only as easy as saying it.
After watching the show, an FG exmember wrote to me asking about the possiblity of a SG/FG discussion board. I wanted to ask what people here think of that idea? The FG posted their idea online as well here: http://www.newdaynews.com/recovery/index.cgi/read/2642
She seems to definitely understand that the need is to be heard and our perspective respected and validated, even if it is disagreed with. I have posted on the http://www.exfamily.org/ site in the past and although frustrating at times, it has been helpful for me to communicate with the older exmembers of The Family.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From please consider
Wednesday, October 05, 2005, 14:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dear Jules,
I am very concerned about your idea of and SG/FG discussion board for the a number of reasons but a few of which I'd like to explain:
- The only FG's I really feel any "obligation" to try and salvage my relationship with would be my parents, not the collective "FG's". - I do not agree that it is appropriate to engage FG's on SG - FG forum, instead ONLY on an Parent-child forum IF that FG can be TRUSTED!!
- Remember that the FG community have consistently shown it is IN THEIR NATURES to try and suck us in to their lives. We have always had to be the responsible ones while they have run riot, in many cases criminally. They are and will continue to be spoiled children who we will have to cater for. - It sucks the energy right out of us, and will suck the energy out of us if we try to engage them FG - SG, one demograph against another, a demograph I will remind you they created.
- "SG's" do not exist except as survivors, ex-prisoners of something we were forced to be involved with against our will. Does a detainee of a concentration camp have to join a prisoner vs torturer debate? - only to find that some prisoners are more willing to forgive, and in the end the truly victimised are left out in the cold when they find they can never forgive the enormity of the crimes, and the rest have made peace?
- The FG's do not deserve pleasant words, kind discussions! They gave none to us, and the only time they speak kindly with smiles is when they know they have you in their pocket. Jules the FG's are sick people! To have stayed in for this long, seriously, beyond straight forward parent to child attempted reconcilliation, I disagree with any dialogue.
- What's the point of any SG-FG dialogue? To convince them they abused us, limited our opportunities, tried to make us think their abuse was good for us? - Jules, they know all of these things and they know them well. They are only hoping that in our wish to be kind and understanding we will be the ones to forget. - We have to be strong in my opinion Jules and hold firm, there is no point in opening dialogue with the FG community. I will go so far as to say that any one wishing to engage again with FG's are succumbing to incestuous conditioning, as it will most likely be that sort of relationship coming from the FG's (remember "the FAMILY").
- Another point is that any discussion with FG's is likely to turn Bible/ jesus orientated. - This is unlikely to be worthwhile again because they are programmed to interperet the bible in a certain way and will no doubt use this to try and convince us of their bullshit yet again. - To illustrate my point further, would they open themselves to a discussion initiated by me on Buddhist philosophy, celtic and viking mythology? - No, and they would have nothing knowledgeable to say if they did....so why should we enter what will no doubt be a bible-based conversation, when I don't follow their religion (and worse yet they tried to force me as a kid to accept theirs).
- Please remember that many of the sicko FG's get turned on by ANY kind of reaction or interaction, its the energy they want, negative energy only makes them more excited as with Stephen Schaff. - It is time to not give them what they want but instead refuse to engage with them. - FG's should be considered NON-PERSONA (non-persons), WE SHOULD HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO ENGAGE THEM, except to attend their court hearings!!!
- then again, just my own opinion(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Friday, October 07, 2005, 21:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thanks for your comments. I do agree with a lot of what you have said here.
What many FG exmembers do not seem to understand is that there are three primary stances that annoy us incredibly, which many people seem to be unable to help themselves in taking.
One is the need to justify their position. Perhaps the most insulting of all is the "testimony" of how The Family helped them as a poor lost hippy and brought them to jesus. That their time spent with this group was a wonderfully intense part of their own spiritual journey, and although they left they retain much of what was said and done. One can spot this a mile away by their retention of the terminology and even practices at times of the group.
Another very annoying stance is the desire for absolution. Some of the first generation feel incredibly guilty about what they did in The Family and they seem to hope that by debasing themselves now, they can somehow do penance for what they did. What people did is between them and those they hurt. No one else can grant them forgiveness.
The last position that I have seen that is equally as annoying is the one of self-proclaimed saviour. The FG exmember who has simply changed their fanaticism to being anti everything they were in the group really still doesn't get it. The exmembers who think that they can somehow lead us in a reverse mirror image of how Berg led the hippies in Huntingdon Beach is obviously as delusional as Stephan Schaff.
All that being said, I am not planning to change the nature of this web site in regards to our demographic. This paticular discussion forum (one between those raised in TF and those who joined) would be on another site.
To be honest I have found almost all of my own interactions with FG exmembers to turn out to be all about them. They mostly seem to end up fitting into to one of the above mentioned annoying perspectives and it seems to be looking for something for them rather than support for me. As you said: "the FG community have consistently shown it is IN THEIR NATURES to try and suck us in to their lives".
I don't know if this would work, and I do not want to take any responsibilty for this, but perhaps being able to talk to some FGs might be helpful. As long as they don't try to justify their position, demand forgiveness from us, or expect us to follow them in a new crusade, it might be helpful.
We have moved on. I would like to think that some of the FGs have as well. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Sadly,
Saturday, October 08, 2005, 01:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think you are absolutely right. Have you seen that episode of the Simpsons which shows Artie Ziff's inner monologue?
It goes: "Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me....etc"(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Whatever!
Wednesday, October 05, 2005, 08:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
This is incredibly inappropriate grandstanding. If you've got something to say to Kristi, write her a letter. Leave the public out of it.
"Can you regain your trust of your dad?" Trust is something that is earned. Going to a few counselling sessions does not earn ones trust.
This whole email is coercive and frankly the same old manipulation we have come to know from Jim La Mattery. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
How about instead of writing public emails you ask yourself why she may have chosen to distance herself? Then give her space. Respect her decisions. Quit hounding her. Then, you will have made some real change in the La Mattery method of operation. (reply to this comment) |
| | From a thought
Wednesday, October 05, 2005, 10:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
Criticize the method if you must, but the motive of the letter seems to me to be an honest effort to try to repair a family that is torn apart. I wish I had the chance to do that with my personal family which has been destroyed by TF. 2/3s of us don't even talk to the other 1/3 in any way, personally or online. So many families are suffering because of Berg and Zerby's insanity. I'm hoping everything works out for Jim, Kristi, and everybody else in the La Mattery family. I also hope my personal family gets a chance to even begin to address the issue that keeps us so divided.(reply to this comment) |
| | From I agree so much
Wednesday, October 05, 2005, 10:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
"How about instead of writing public emails you ask yourself why she may have chosen to distance herself? Then give her space. Respect her decisions." Well said.
Maybe Jim LaMattery is upset that he wasn't portrayed as he expected to be, as the universally adored knight in shining armor "doing it for" "every fricking kid that has been ruined by those people," but if he really was doing it for us, why would his image matter? The show rocked as far as exposing the cult.
I also think the Dr. Phil show deserves some credit for knowing what they are doing instead of acting like it's all Kristi's fault and the show is run by dummies. I mean it's not like Dr. Phil is not a psychologist. Why not blame the show for doing what they do, finding people that the good Doctor can help on air personally with the subjects he knows best. Or did he not know the format of the show before trying to go on it?
I am sure there is a lot the show had to edit out and simplify. I wish they had asked Jim LaMattery if he's polled the "fricking kids" he is supposedly championing about how he has affected their lives and if he has treated them as though he were on their side.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From John Jr.
Wednesday, October 05, 2005, 13:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think people want to see Jim and Kristi come back together. Kristi has a lot of support from us and knows that we love her. She'll be fine and she's promised to work on her relationship with her father just as much as her father promised to work on his relationship with her. I also agree that she needed a place where she felt protected to say what she needed to, that place was Dr. Phil.
It wasn't my idea to politicize our family on Dr. Phil, that was Dr. Phil's idea and the jury's still out on whether I'm endorsing that move or not. However, it is what it is and I only hope that Jim and Kristi's appearance on Dr. Phil will not worsen their situation.
The idea of getting on any major media venue is appealing to us because of the attention it focuses on The Family, be that CNN, Dr. Phil, Montel or local channel 8. You will see throughout my postings that I have always supported those individuals getting their voice heard on the media regardless of what I think about their person and if I get a long with them or not.
Both Jim and Kristi will have to decide what is appropriate for them and how invested they want to be with each other. I support them coming together and healing over this, and I support every child and parent that has been through The Family to reconnect. If we have to be public examples of that process, so be it. We didn't ask for it, I guess we were just cruisin' for a bruisin’. One good thing that has come of it is the feedback on the Dr. Phil webpage where The Family and us are able to debate the issues on a safe web board, where both ex-FGA’s and ex-SGA’s can stand behind a common goal in another public venue. (reply to this comment) |
| | From John Jr.
Wednesday, October 05, 2005, 10:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thank you for your opinions. I love Kristi dearly, she's a very strong girl and I know she will absolutely pull through this with the help of her family and friends. Although maybe euphoric, I hope that all of us will be able to reconnect with our parents whether in The Family or out. That's a process that will take strength and determination from both sides of the aisle, I know this first hand as I had to work just as hard to re-establish a relationship with my mother and father as they have had to work with me. Both sides have to be willing to come to the table and iron out their problems. Although it will take a very long time for the monumental gap between many of us and our parents to mend and the ex-members and current members to mend, it's all the hope that I have to hold on to through this grueling process. I will continue to stay in The Family's face until they are willing to head down that road of healing with us.
I too wish that this could've been done in private and if I had it my way none of us would’ve ever been abused and exploited. However I believe destiny has turned a spotlight on the healing process of my family and that process now is important for the world to see. If our family, as dysfunctional as it is can heal, yours can too.
The LaMattery MO is to not hold back on any front. It gets things accomplished and it sometimes gets us in trouble. And we focus on our cause to bring The Family to justice, it’s equally just as important that we work with all our strength on getting our parents back and our families back together. I hope that this can be demonstrated by my family in a Dr. Phil part 2 as a defining moment of healing in all of our lives. I only wish Abe could’ve had the opportunity to work with his parents on these issues, I’m certain he’d be able to talk about this today. (reply to this comment) |
| | From WTF?
Wednesday, October 05, 2005, 20:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree with the poster above. Shameless grandstanding.
Jim can write his own letter to his daughter. What parent needs a nephew to be his intermediary to his daughter and post it online?
Also, from reading the interview transcript, it doesn't look as if Kristi's issues are so much related to her father's past inactions, but his unwillingness to behave honestly and honorably towards her and other survivors. My impression is that the guy desperately attempts to appropriate the human suffering and stories of others in an attempt to make himself relavent. If he were really interested in helping the "fricking kids" he wouldn't have been engaging in the types of behavior he has and treating other survivors and even Rick's widow as information comodities in his own messianic-type quest.
As for the "LaMattery MO," referenced above. That's just typical group think. Why should Jim's poor actions reflect badly on the rest of his family? That's unfair to the LaMattery name.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From
Wednesday, October 05, 2005, 11:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
You wrote:
"However I believe destiny has turned a spotlight on the healing process of my family and that process now is important for the world to see."
Just wondering if Kristi shares this point of view.
Also -- little reality check. Just because you made it to Dr. Phil does not necessarily mean "destiny" has ordained that it is important for "the world" to follow the healing process of your family.
Thanks for reiterating the LaMattery MO. Reminds me how important it is to stay the hell away from you all.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Destiny?
Thursday, October 06, 2005, 11:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yeah,
This "destiny" stuff is a little weird if you ask me.
Kind of like a certain Christian Missionary Alliance pastor decided that "destiny" had called on him to start a group, and all his followers whom he duped into believing that "destiny" had called them to be part of it. That's a little bit of an extreme example, but still, the same idea.
Destiny or no destiny I think it's safe to say many people and their families are in need of healing. I can't see this type of politicization and expolitation of the personal relationships of others helping at all.
I can't see how a condescending letter saying to the effect that one individual is going to hold another to a promise or something, has anything to do with healing of any sort. Especially if, as reported the intended recipient doesn't even read this site.
(reply to this comment) |
| | from Albatross
Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 14:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
Read this posting from a cocky little Family nutjob on My Con.com
Daniel
Thank you for offering your help and two cents to these obviously distraught former Family members. God knows that they needed it as well as your generous offer of professional help and counseling for them. I hope that they take it and that in some way it will help them to separate truth from fiction in there own minds.
I find it difficult to believe however that you could be so one sided with your presentation of your show. Granted it makes for a good story and that in turn makes the public come back for more, but as a second generation member of The Family International this makes me sick! I am a father of three wonderful children and I would never place them in harms way. If I ever thought that this was the case in one of our Family communities I would simply move on.
I find it hard to believe that you would air something so one sided with out even just a little of our side. I don’t buy the “The Family wouldn’t come on the show” line, as if you were to just do even a little research you would see that there is definitely another side to this story. Go to http://www.myconclusion.com/archives/category/letters-to-the-editor/
where you can see mine as well as hundreds of others that stand up for the way that we live and for the way that we were brought up, with loving parents that gave there all so that we could have the best of care. But then again I don’t think that you were really interested in this aspect, or you would have said something about it. I hate to go as far as to say that I think your show is nothing more then a glorified Jerry Springer, but it would appear that way if one were to just watch this one segment. I know I have members of my personal family that like a lot of your
shows as well as some of the things that you promote on health etc. But on this time Dr. Phil you really bungled it. Time to fire some of your reporting team and hire some new ones, if you have any hope in reaching your full potential.
John Orcutt
Member of The Family International
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from Est
Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 13:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
Does anyone have a transcript of the show for us that didn't get to see it?
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from
Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 11:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
"This is a preposterous lie which we vehemently deny & challenge anyone to try to prove!—In or out of a court, of law!"
Yeah well, bring Zerby and Peter and it can be arranged for them to go to 'court-of-law' and be tried. I think they'll snif out the liars in all this preety damn fast!
(reply to this comment)
| from
Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 06:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
WHAT THE FUCK?!
Claire - What a spineless coward! You passed on repeated invitations to be a guest of the Dr. Phil show. NOW, after it has aired, you post a response in hopes that you will be treated fairly?
What you really want is to take pot-shots at the truth from your ivory tower where you do not have to face the FACTS face-to-face. Write you letter and make your foolish statements. It is much easier to do this than to be face-to-face with well-trained psychologists who could very easily distinguish the body language and involuntary physical responses of a LIAR! Half of the untrained national audience could probably sense that just from basic human intuition.
Continue with your denials - apologize for the abuse - it does not matter to me what you do. You and all your cohorts are spineless cowards who will not face the reality of what happened in the cult. You will not do what everyone knows should be done.
What you will do is continue to hide, deny, and explain. Whether anyone follows the teachings of God, Jesus, Mo, Budha or that fat guy that drives by me every day preaching from a bullhorn in his car, it all seems to work out in the end. Call in karma - call it divine intervenion, call it justice - or call it boo. I don't care. But do not worry Claire - my misguided fool - everyone's time will come.
Until then - keep writing letters...
(reply to this comment)
| from A Survivor
Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 01:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
I posted this on the Dr. Phil forums tonight.
The Family spokesperson posted a statement on www.myconclusion.com. As a survivor of the cult, I feel obligated to comment on her statement with the truth. Since they only allow comments on their website by their own members (unlike the ex member sites who allow free conversation), I will post this where I can. My comments are in bold.
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In Response to the program “The Family Cult” aired on October 3, 2005
As a spokesperson for the Family (formerly known as the Children of God), I wish to state for the record that I find your coverage of my church to be extremely biased, malicious and clearly aimed at inciting intolerance and discrimination. It is quite apparent that your agenda was to demonize my church and your program was rife with falsities and inaccuracies. One would think that I had not presented you with facts, all of which you ignored and made absolutely no note of on your program.
I find your usage of the label “cult” particularly pejorative. Such labeling is an age-old tactic—Jesus and his followers were also maligned as the “cult of the Nazarenes” in their day. What you neglect to mention is that the Family is a fellowship of independent, self-governing Christian missionaries dedicated to preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ around the world. The Family, founded in the late ’60s, has expanded into an international missionary fellowship located in over 100 countries around the world, and has led millions to faith in Christ, as well as assisting the needy in a multitude of volunteer efforts (see www.thefamily.org).
Let’s overlook the abuse for a second and pick apart what you are claiming to be volunteer efforts. I’ll get to the abuse later in my comments. I was born into your cult, and yes it is a cult as declared by your founding dictator Berg, and the dictionary. I spent time in the Philippines, India, Europe and the US. In my 18 years in the family I can count less than 20 times that me and my home were directly involved in legitimate relief and volunteer efforts. Preaching the gospel does not clothe a child, nor does it feed them or give an orphan a parent. All it does is increase the stats that a home can report to their leaders as souls for Christ. The majority of my “volunteer” efforts were actually singing a religious song to someone that could have benefited more from clothes than the glossy posters with religious texts that we would distribute to them.
To anyone who kindly donated clothes that you believed were going to the “mission field”, I thank you kindly. I truly hope you don’t give up your generosity and find a worthy cause to donate to. When clothes would come in from manufacturers, they would sit in a large storage area where the leaders and their families could pick out what they wanted. The rest of the members were then allowed to get clothes for themselves (much needed, since no one had any personal money). After that the clothes would be trucked to various mission fields. Rather than go to needy people in Eastern Europe, Asia orSouth Americaas had been intended, the clothes were turned over at borders in exchange for allowing several of the cult members in with their literature so they could preach their religion. The clothes would circulate in the black market benefiting no one, and the cult would be permitted to witness to the poor and needy rather than supply them with things they actually needed.
For anyone who is Christian reading this, most of the people they would witness to were already Christians, so as long as they prayed with them, the family would count the person as a soul saved.
The allegations of widespread, institutionalized child abuse made on this program by former members and Dr. Phil have absolutely no basis in fact. This is a lie and you know it. Abusers thrived within the cult. I urge anyone who reads this nonsense to please do a web search on publications issued by The Children of God, The Family of Love, and The Family. What you find will horrify any decent human being. Furthermore, what you do get to see has already been purged of the worst kind of stuff imaginable. At the age of six, I was reading of Berg’s fantasies of sleeping with his mother, daughter and granddaughters. I was reading sex stories put into illustrated comics meant for children. Even the innocent child’s story of Beauty and the Beast was turned into a sexual illustration of our parent’s FFing adventures.
Similar allegations by a few detractors in the early ‘90s resulted in pre-dawn paramilitary raids that traumatized nearly 200 children in Argentina alone, and hundreds more in Spain, France and Australia. In the early 90’s most of the second generation were in our early teens. Had more of us been old enough to see through your lies and bullshit, you would have had an army of your own children against you. In fact, right before the raids I was watching videos called The Make It Work series, a show that encouraged children as young as 16 to wed each other and make it work.
Justice prevailed and all children were returned to their parents and released from a nightmare after undergoing invasive state examinations for months. You call it justice, but we all know better. I was one of the people who marched up to the embassies of France, Argentina, and Australia shouting for release of the children. I was one of the children the press would ask about abuse, and I would deny it. I denied it even though I knew that only a year before the first raids a pervert in our home had attempted to engage me in inappropriate sexual conduct with him and a toddler. I denied it because you trained me to deny it. I didn’t know better. I was only 14. If I denied it then and I denied it until I was 17, and I denied it even after I left the group while you still had me under your guilt trips, then how can I believe the children you have now who so sincerely deny it too?
Courts on three continents were unanimous in finding Family communities to be safe environments for children, while finding no evidence of neglect or harm of any kind—hardly corroborative of allegations made on this program of widespread abuse. The detractors that incited these authorities, however, were proved by the courts to have perjured themselves and to have presented false evidence. (see San Martin Court of Appeals, Case 81/89 “Cavazza, Juan C. and others, Federal Court of San Isidro, 1 Sec.2 Of.ce II, Reg. 443.Buenos Aires, Argentina, December 13, 1993.)
Any form of abuse, whether sexual, physical or otherwise is absolutely forbidden in our fellowship. Any infraction of this rule will result in immediate expulsion from our fellowship. You say that any act of abuse is forbidden, but you do not execute punishment. Excommunication from your group is NOT punishment. A submission of the offender to the authorities IS punishment. Let the law deal with those who break it. You have not turned over the abusers; you have not surrendered your own leaders who have committed abuse. You protect the people who sexually abused children. You have never offered to identify those who we have named. We don’t even have the privilege of knowing our abusers legal names because you hide them behind their bible names. We can’t even go after them legally ourselves while you continue to protect and harbor them. You have the ability to locate them. The Family has kept close track of its member’s legal names, bible names and locations since the early 80’s. Why don’t you want to weed your so-called legitimate organization of the child abusers, especially since you are raising a new generation of children? While you may be able to forgive these perpetrators, we, the victims, do not have the right to choose whether or not we want to forgive them or turn them over to the authorities. You cannot say you that you are done with the abuse until you have dealt with the criminals that abused us. While The Family holds to liberal views on heterosexual sexual relations between consenting adult persons, we do not tolerate, condone or permit any inappropriate behavior with our children, whom we consider a precious gift from God to be protected and nurtured.
The Family’s success in protecting our children and ensuring their well being has been documented by court-appointed and independent investigations of almost 700 children living in Family communities. After extensive physical, psychological and educational testing, all of the children were found to be healthy with no sign of abuse in a single case. This total absence of abuse speaks for the efforts made to safeguard children in Family communities. I question whether random investigations would produce similar results in society at large. Not according to the Department of Health and Human Services, that reports a rate of at least 13 cases of abuse per 1,000 in the United States, with British authorities reporting close to 200 cases per 1,000. Had I been physically examined at the time of the raids, they probably would not have suspected abuse. I was 14 years old and in most countries, that is the age of consent for sex with boys your own age. We were trained to talk to people and convince them that we were normal. This applies to many of the girls who were abused. Please refer to http://www.movingon.org/abuse.asp?pg_Page=1&pg_Recs=10 for first hand accounts of abuse. At the time of this article there were 193 counts of abuse. It is my belief that the professionals who were testing the children and found them to be acceptable were accustomed to testing children in a regular single family home where the father and/or mother is suspected of abuse. I would really like to speak to some of these professionals now so that we can discuss questions they might have asked that would have been more effective in detecting the real abuse that took place.
Judges compared the draconian measures taken by authorities to the “Spanish Inquisition” and the “concentration camps of those former empires that ceased to be so when human dignity brought down the Berlin Wall.” (Case numbers: 157 to 163/1992 Provincial Court of Barcelona, Spain, Verdict dated May 21, 1992)
Your program apparently seeks to perpetuate such injustice and heinous violation of the rights of thousands of children. Children brought up in the Family over the past three decades are now parents with children of their own and the right to practice their religious beliefs. The Family has clearly codified statutes in place since the mid ‘80s to protect minors from any kind of abuse and to ensure that they are brought up in a loving, nurturing environment—it is quite clear by the findings of courts in the early ‘90s that these have been enforced and adhered to. The courts have spoken and their conclusions are based in fact and investigative research, not hearsay perpetrated by those with a clear agenda of causing harm to a minority church. Again, while The Family may have destroyed the books that directly condoned child abuse, they have done nothing to weed out the abusers themselves.
Your portrayal of “flirty fishing” has little basis in reality. Flirty Fishing was a personal and intimate form of evangelization. Yes and at the age of 6 I was fully aware what my mom was doing on her month long trips away. As an outreach ministry, FFing was an extremely sacrificial method to employ in order to try to show a lonely and needy soul that God loved them. Incidentally these lonely needy souls happened to be some of the wealthiest men on the planet. However, through this ministry, the Family was able to lead over 200,000 souls to Christ, reaching many hearts with the Gospel who might never have had the opportunity to receive God’s love otherwise. It was practiced by adult Family members for ten years, from 1977 to 1987, at which time it was officially banned as an outreach method for a variety of reasons. Of course there are the few exceptions to the rule where wealthy men are “maintained” as friends with benefits.
Your repeated claim that people “escaped from the cult” makes for good fiction but has no basis in fact. 32,000 people have exited our movement of their own accord after serving as missionaries. Yes, I exited the cult on my own will, but only the day I turned 18. I consider it an escape as defined by Merriam Webster’s Dictionary:
1 a : to get away (as by flight) < escaped from prison> b : to issue from confinement escaping > c of a plant : to run wild from cultivation
2 : to avoid a threatening evil
transitive senses
1 : to get free of : break away from < escape the jungle> < escape the solar system>
2 : to get or stay out of the way of :
3 : to fail to be noticed or recallable by escapes me>
4 a : to issue from b : to be uttered involuntarily by
As a full-time volunteer work our members have no interest in sharing a household with individuals who do not hold the same goal of preaching the Gospel and assisting the needy.
Regarding your inaccurate coverage of Ricky Rodriguez, I would like to point out that Angela Smith, who Ricky Rodriguez brutally and premeditatedly murdered, was a human being not a former “cult member”. Ricky Rodriguez never accused her of abusing him in anyway. In searching for a motive for this tragic crime, Dr. Phil should take care to not casually write off Angela’s murder and justify the actions of an obviously disturbed young man acting out his misplaced anger. Our society is rife with violence—regularly the public is exposed to violent crimes of individuals that act out the violence they witness via the media, and discuss anonymously via the internet. Such crimes are not particular to religious groups—in fact such violence is shocking and unheard of in Family communities. Suicide and acts of violence are virtually unheard of in our communities. Suicides have occurred in The Family. The majority of suicides though are from ex-members. You see you raise a bunch of children to believe they are God’s elite endtime army. Then when one of these children decides they are not exactly endtime army material, you throw them out like they are yesterday’s garbage. Some are fortunate to have family on the outside that can provide physical care, but even then they have no one to talk to about their childhood of deception, lies and abuse. Others, like me, have limited family options and instead are left with say $40 in their pocket and a passport, and have to start life from there. So either way, you are out in a world you’ve been taught to hate. You have years and years of emotional baggage that you need to do something with. It’s not unlikely then that you may start to fear the world you are in. You look for a job with a 4th grade education, but your options are pretty slim. You dread the thought of going back because it’s all you know. You hate the fact that all you know is what you hate, and all you don’t know is what you hate. So you start to feel pretty bummed out. You consider your options. Some find it in suicide; others find a shred of hope. I personally battled severe depression, but held on with anger. I wanted to prove to my pathetic mother that I could survive without her. I wanted to show her that I would not be a prostitute after she told me that’s what I would do. I wanted to show my siblings that were still in the cult that life outside can be good. So I took an optimistic turn and it worked out very well for me. Today I am successful. Today I am victorious. But today I am also working through my past. And that is why I am writing this. This is me working through the fact that I can’t sleep after reading Borowick’s lies. This me angry. This is me crying about my past. If you can’t feel that, you have no business reading this.
Your stories of young adults who have no capabilities to function in society are absurd. Second generation members organize large communities, NGOs, charitable work in different countries, create and operate web sites, raise and home school their children, create evangelistic products such as music, artwork, children’s books, and much more. It would have behooved you in the interest of fairness and accuracy to make note of the important fact that approximately half the young people born into the Family continue to be members and tell a very different story than that being aired by a handful of former members. 400+ current second generation members have posted their side of the story on their blog at www.myconclusion.org. I will state again, that I denied abuse the entire time I was in your cult. I denied it happened to me. My brother would call me and ask me if I was happy in the cult, and I would tell him with great enthusiasm that I was. I’d get off the phone and cry because I wanted the courage to leave, but I didn’t feel I could survive in the world with my limited knowledge. I cannot believe their counts because I too denied that I was abused, and I too convinced people that I was happy with a meaningful life. I did it because I was told to do it, and I wanted to believe it was true. A truly investigative report would not ignore their testimonies and the fact that they do not corroborate the extreme accounts of those appearing on your show. You were invited to the show, but you declined. Quite honestly, I would have declined too. I’m not looking for fame. All I want is justice.
In the interest of fairness, I ask that you post this.
Claire Borowik for the Family
(reply to this comment)
| from tuneman7
Monday, October 03, 2005 - 23:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
A very big contratulations to Kristi, Nina, China and John.
Krisiti, you are my hero. One of the most corageous, honest and compassionate women I have had opportunity to know. Everyone respects what you have done with your life. You are an example to many of us. Thank you.
Increasingly the cult and their leadership stand in such stark contrast to the wonderful people who have put their names on the line, to speak the truth. It is not easy, it disrupts our lives, but it is the truth. Keep telling your story. Keep winning. Keep being present for your friends.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from loony tunes
Monday, October 03, 2005 - 22:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
uh, I mean "fruittunes." This is the lastest from TF's best and fruitiest, I mean brightest aspiring spookespursen:
"I would think that if the second generation suffered abuse they would in turn become abusers themselves.you see I studied a little bit of psychology myself.
Abuse runs in Families, the parents abuse the kids then the kids in turn abuse their siblings and eventually it starts itself all over with the next generation.
I have no doubt that some abuse occured 15 to 20 years ago. But if the second generation members are now the "teachers" and no abuses if occuring now, what does that have to say about the group today?
This tells me that abuse was not as widespread as some would claim. Otherwise you'd see more abuse happening now at the hands of the abused second generation.
The testimonials from current young people in the Family indicate that they are for the most part happy and they believe that what they are doing is a for a good cause.
If you look at the evidence you would see that abuse occured over a period spanning the early to mid eighties, what the group practiced in before seems to have changed for whatever reasons and it seems like the family communities are reasonably safe places to raise children."
(reply to this comment)
| From Agast
Monday, October 03, 2005, 22:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
WTF? That is some of the wackiest shit I've ever heard. Example:
Defence Attorney: "Your honor, that young person may have testified that my client abused them, and their friends may support their story. However since you can see that none of them grew up to become abusers, my client must be innocent, and the charges false."
I can't believe they would stoop to this, it's both stupid and insulting. And what is this "evidence" we're supposed to look at? James Chancellor's book? The Davidito book counts as "evidence", doesn't it?
BTW, there has NEVER been a real police raid on an actual inner circle WS-style Family home. If they had pulled those raids on MCV or MWM in the early '80's, they would have found plenty of dirt.(reply to this comment) |
| | From AndyH
Monday, October 03, 2005, 23:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree with your last remark, and want to elaborate, it seems apparent that some homes treated their children completely fairly, perhaps due to the fact that they lucked out and had non-sicko leadership. If a home like this were to raided they obviously would turn up nothing. On the other hand a home with more rampant beatings/pedophilia would have much tighter security due to their criminal activty.
They weren't stupid, they covered their bases, Im in the army and our OPSEC is a joke compared to family's security.
Their were times in my childhood when life became pleasant and fun, and twice they sent the mom team to turn it into hell again. The raids may have just struck during good times or at good locations.
Just a thought.(reply to this comment) |
| | From
Tuesday, October 04, 2005, 09:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Other factors why raids didn't "turn up" anything: lit purges, bear pit sessions and other training for Victory-in-Babylon secenarios, the authorities lack of understanding of the minors' situation and any intelligent plan to make the kids feel safe enought that they authorities could find out the truth they would only know if the kids ever felt safe enough to talk which seems impossible (or at the very least, be nothing short of a miracle involving quick discarding of a lifetime of indoctrination). How is a kid going to go against God? Especially if they think God's people will as usual be back to regular and they are in the trouble of their lives.(reply to this comment) |
| | From AndyH
Tuesday, October 04, 2005, 20:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
"bear pit sessions and other training for Victory-in-Babylon secenarios"
I dont remember these exact terms, I do remember long classes on how to lie to systemites asking questions about abuse, we called them "wolves", we even did complete simulations were a member form another home posed as a wolf and interogated us. I had no idea that it was staged until afterwards.
Does anyone remember the wolf jingle?(reply to this comment) |
| | from Bella
Monday, October 03, 2005 - 22:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Go to http://www.kfmb.com/features/special_assignment/story.php?id=25123 for a clip that KFMB (San Diego) did on The Family today.
(reply to this comment)
| from lucidchick
Monday, October 03, 2005 - 21:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
I want to express my sincere thanks to Kristi, China and John for doing such a superb job. You guys are courageous, and I wish you all the best.
Thank you!!
(reply to this comment)
| From lucidchick
Wednesday, October 05, 2005, 06:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
OK, I feel like an idiot. I was like an excited 2 year old that night after watching a tape of the wonderful show. I thanked those who got more air time and I left out Nina!!! I am so sorry, Nina, it was an oversight on my part, and was not because I don't feel the same about your contribution to the show. I CERTAINLY appreciate your courage and eloquence as well! You did a superb job too, and I will always be grateful to you for it.
I wish you all the success and happiness you could imagine and more. All of you who have been telling your stories and in the process, this collective story, deserve nothing less. I hope one day I can return what I feel you all have given me. This also goes for Sarah, Daniel, Elixcia, Peter, Davida, tuneman, Jerz, Nancy, Andrew, Andrew, Joni, Armendria, Julia, Jon, L, Celeste, Kristina, Chris, Josh, Angelo, Sam & Angie, all the anonymous ones, the ones whose names I don't remember just now, the ones who went before, the ones who are no longer with us, the ones who went by initials in a custody case, the never, ever forgotten Merry, Miriam and much missed Cherish. I know I am leaving out names, but before I get back to work I wanted to put down the ones I can remember right now.
Thank you.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from
Monday, October 03, 2005 - 17:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
http://www.drphil.com/shows/show/591
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From Magic Marker
Monday, October 03, 2005, 20:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
I find it interesting that they keep trying to deny that Angela abused Ricky. A smart interviewer would confront them with what's in the Davidito book and say "so then you don't consider this abusive"? They are actually pretty stupid to keep harping on this, because either it shows how they look at the stuff she was involved in as OK, or it establishes their lack of credibility and shows their bad faith "Deceivers yet True" MO.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Peter
Monday, October 03, 2005, 18:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
If I recall correctly, on August 10, 2005 Family spokesperson and unrepentant child molester Claire Borowik was publically invited to appear on the Dr. Phil show on behalf of the Family. She declined the invitation. Now she complains that Dr. Phil didn't adequately present the Family's side of the story. If she wasn't such a spineless lying coward, she would have appeared on the show to present her side of the story and defend the child molesters she works for. She was given every oppurtunity to appear on the show and defend the Family. Since she refused, she has no right to complain. (reply to this comment) |
| | From
Monday, October 03, 2005, 18:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Claire the pedophile bangs on and on about how many kids were examined. Well, it is a known fact (and I'm sure Dr. Phil and his colleagues are sophisticated enough to know this) that:
" in most cases of sexual abuse, there are no physical
indicators of the crime. It is rare to actually have
positive medical findings upon medical examination,
although such findings can provide powerful
corroboration of a child’s account of sexual abuse."
http://www.childtrauma.org/ctamaterials/sexual_abuse.asp
Note also that child sex abuse "contact offenses"
include "Stripping the child to hit/spank; obtaining
sexual gratification out of hitting" and "Invasive
care of the child's genitals." From the same website.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Albatross
Monday, October 03, 2005, 20:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
I just read Borowik's screed. Sounds like she believes her own propaganda. One thing I can say for her..she's blindly tenacious. But I guess you'd have to be to be a Cult spokesperson. No matter how many time she gets her ass kicked in the Media she just keeps coming back for more. If I was a CEO and she was the spokesperson of my company I would have fired her long ago for gross stupidity and incompetence. In fact I told Ado this a few months ago. (you remember dad) I've done the math and here is what I've come up with. If as Zerby says, Katrina is God's punishment on the US for the "media persecution," then I think Borowik should share some blame for the devastation. As I see it, if she hadn't been so bloody incompetent then maybe the media storm would have gone better for them and god would have stayed his hand. ;) Just a thought.
Daniel(reply to this comment) |
| | From
Monday, October 03, 2005, 22:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Maybe she will find out what it's like when the Family's levees break and she has to take the lovely little resume she's been building up for the last 9 months and find a job working for mammon. I volunteer to look up the address for meetings of Aufseherin anonymous (assuming she wants to quit). They could probably provide more identification and support than most people out there who think a church like hers demonizes itself just fine on its own without Dr. Phil's help.(reply to this comment) |
| | from wont be long now...
Monday, October 03, 2005 - 16:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
"Children in our communities are cherished as priceless gifts from God, given to their parents to love, care for, and to raise in a Godly manner." from the Family's European site http://www.thefamilyeurope.org/en/about
what are you gonna do when it all comes down on top of you, mama and pete you'll be crushed under the weight of your own shit, litteraly.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | from AndyH
Monday, October 03, 2005 - 00:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
??
The DR. Phil Page wont load up for me for some reason. Also I dont have a TV, is this going to be a show about the cult?
(reply to this comment)
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