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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from this post got thru at familyyouth
Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 13:01
 (Agree/Disagree?)
You make some good points, David.
I must concede that at times I have read accounts of circumstances that were exagerated or flat out wrong and I have publicly challenged them. I don't know why some ex-members do this and, to be honest, it pisses me off because it creates credibility problems for others who bravely and honestly share their stories. But I do think that such charlatans are in the minority.
I agree that the statement about hundreds of children CURRENTLY being abused is false. I haven't read that anywhere but I would challenge an author who made such a statement because I believe it to be false. The HISTORICAL abuse issue isn't so much a numbers game of hundreds or thousands...I think it's a question of if the environment during 80's and early 90's fomented by top leadership was represive and abusive. And I'll be honest when I sadly say I think it was.
I know the apology issue has come up a lot so I'll try to address problems that I have seen people have with the past apologies. I don't relish the role of a slimey sower of doubts but with all the material out there I'm skeptical that I'm shaking anyone's faith. I'm no spokesmen. I speak only for myself.
Example of CURRENT apology:
"We know some people were hurt and we're sorry about that. We're sorry that David Berg did not sufficiently anticipate that some of his writings might have been misinterpreted by weak and carnal members and we were too slow to put up safeguards to protect our second generation. We cry when we think about the emotional and physical pain that some of you suffered and wish we could give each of you a big hug. Our hearts break to think that any of endured harsh discipline at the hands of some misguided leadership and we should have done a better job correcting or keeping them out of positions of leadership."
There's nothing wrong with that apology in and of itself. Perhaps it unfair of me to say it's insincere. However, it's generic in many ways and consistently deflects responsibility. I'm not suggesting that an honest apology is the only thing former members want...I'm just trying to highlight the insatisfaction with the current apology. It's difficult to argue about what would be an adequate apology and even more difficult when you're trying to write an apology on behalf of someone else but I think a frank apology would sound remotely something like this:
Example of CANDID apology:
"We understand the configuration of The Family in the 80's and 90's was based on more of a military model that required unquestioning obedience to your shepherds all the way up the chain of command and far less freedom than is currently available in the Charter era. We understand that when Dad issued an edict or stated a belief it was expected that this would be believed as God's Word and obeyed. The Letters weren't merely suggestions or monthly religious magazines that one would pick up at the grocery story and casually browse through. Things like FFing may have been technically optional but there was a tremendous amount of pressure to be in God's will and participate and your parents felt those pressures very, very strongly through fear of God's judgments and through leadership that we appointed urging them to obey."
"We now understand that it was wrong to put our religious beliefs as revealed through Dad regarding sexual liberties above the law. We felt that the Lord would protect us from the System and as long as everything was done in love it would all work out okay. So when Dad said that in God's eyes, sex is good between ANY male and female of any age ("The Devil Hates Sex"), we put it into practice in our own Home and actively promoted sexual freedom that included teenagers and in some cases children at places like MWM and throughout the world. We didn't intend for you to be hurt, but it was a terrible, terrible mistake to advocate that type of behavior through our literature and leadership structure. The "system" laws that were put in place to protect children should have been adhered to for your protection and it was wrong for us to knowingly violate those laws and put you at risk."
"In retrospect, when many of our young people started voicing doubts about our doctrines and expressed a desire to study or leave the group we didn't handle it properly. We felt that these issues could be resolved through more discipline. We publicly exposed young people through letters like "The Last State" and your parents, being the loyal members that they were, often applied these letters as a template for dealing with you."
"We closely oversaw the P.I. Jumbo and Detention Teen programs at the HCS and Macau and read reports and sent representatives to various victor programs around the world. We circulated How-to videos and literature through our CROs that described our victor programs and spanking teens whose bottoms were still bruised from their last spanking. We were aware of teens having duct tape placed over their mouths, enduring weeks of silence restriction and suffering very severe corporal punishment and manual labor. We felt so strongly, at the time, that we should take whatever drastic measures were needed to keep you safely in the fold without acknowledging that eventually a majority of you might not share our beliefs as you grew older. We weren't trying to abuse you, but the treatment that many of you endured was abusive. Even for those of you who followed the rules, did as you were told, didn't voices doubt about the Word and hunger for Worldly things, the fact that you knew that this kind of treatment could be resorted to if you were rebellious was wrong and we can understand how many of you were fearful of such treatment. That type of treatment should never have been on the table as an option."
"It was wrong to advocate spanking a child until they stopped crying. That type of discipline is excessive and there are laws setup to protect children from these experiences. Unfortunately, we again put our beliefs above the law and now we know that children should never be treated that harshly but many of your parents felt pressured to discipline you in such a manner while growing up. We acknowledge that abuse isn't limited to violently raping children and teens, or keeping them locked up in dark dungeons, etc. and that some of the programs that we setup and oversaw and perceived at the time as 'tough love' were in fact abusive."
"If we could go back in time, we would have handled things far, far differently. We beg your forgiveness for these many misjudgments and actions. We understand that forgiveness cannot be demanded but we do sincerely apologize. We understand that some of you may seek legal recourse because many of our actions were illegal. We obviously hope you don't try to put us in jail, but if you do, we will not accuse of you of being liars and false accusers or tools of blood-dripping demons from the Netherworld."
"We realize that in our organization, the buck stops at us and we failed many of you miserably despite our best intentions. Please forgive us."
In closing, I was raised to believe the best about people, give them the benefit of the doubt and to possess a large capacity to forgive. If you asked me, I think that top leadership is honestly sorry and, though misguided, for the most part they had good rather than malicious intentions. They did, however, make some incredibly bad decisions regarding our generation. I think that if they could do it again, they would have done things differently. My point was not to slander leadership but to say that unlike them, you are in a position to be candid and make your arguments without fear of legal ramifications. Well, this was much longer than I had expected. I'll cut back on the posting for while.
(reply)
Erik, I dont like your apology. Its petty and
incorrect as well. The Family does not need to
apologize for its beliefs, those beliefs are the
closet to heavenly philosophy as this world will get.
Mamma and Peters apology was perfect, and frankly
there is nothing else for them to do. They do not need
to grovel to you bitter, unmoving people, because you
wouldnt accept anything they would say or resay in the
first place. Dad received pure visions, and tried to
impart them to us, so Mamma and Peter aopologizing for
the carnalness of the Family is right on. Cause that
is what the problem was all along. If you aint want to
live in the fivth dimension, than stay in Flatlander
world. And please dont try to explain "the Family
abuse issue" away for us. I think youre only doing it
for your own benfit. Cant you guys goddamn stop living
in the past?
Oh, but since you wont be posting for awhile anymore,
I guess good riddance.
Joy
(reply to this comment)
| | | |  From Along those Lines
Friday, July 15, 2005, 19:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
While Erik's example of an apology is a VAST improvement over the milquetoast weasel-worded things they call apologies but which read like a DISCLAIMER, it is mostly applicable to an apology from Family leadership that was responsible for our childhood abuses but may not have physically carried out the acts.
For me, in addition to an apology like the one Erik suggests (though I would replace "mistake" with a more honest word, and a few more changes) the apology from my direct perps that I sometimes dare hope for in my wildest dreams, and that would set me on the path to being able to consider forgiveness if that were requested and ignore the perps the way they seem to want to be forgotten now with their cruelty, would be along these lines:
I, _________, abused my position as a leader and a person who had responsibility over you as a minor in your parents' absence when I sexually abused you. I am sorry for the psychological harm and the physical ramifications that you have been suffering since.
I then lied on _________ and __________ occasions and to judge ________ and media _________. I pretended to be a righteous persecuted christian and carried on in my position of schmoozing people like James Chancellor into soft-peddling paedophilia and torture and doing his best to make it look outweighed by the intensity of the bombers' -- I mean disciples' -- dedication.
I am so sorry for the mental anguish that you suffered as a result.
I recognize how many of your struggles and suffering would have been mitigated if I had not tried to run every aspect of your life in the totalitarian mode that the Family used on its children, or kept you from every area of inquiry that did not have to do with Bergs' religion which I converted to and from any such human contact.
I recognize that at the time that was your entire world and that you had no hope or glimpse of it ever changing or getting better, and I acknowledge how terrifying that must have felt.
I am sorry that instead of pursuits that you were interested in or at least those that may have made for a childhood, I made you work from 19-- to 19--, and didn't pay you or even see that your basic needs were provided for.
I regret terrorizing you for so many days that time when you were so sick and instead saying that you had a demon of rebellion. I am sorry that today that has cost you __________.
Signed, _____________(reply to this comment) |
| | From
Tuesday, July 12, 2005, 17:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Can't you learn how to write? Probably not. That's not because you were born stupid, that's because you were raised stupid. Your sweet Mamma doesn't need to apologize for your stupidity now does she? Let her keep her pedophiles in the closet, her children stupid, her members robbing from the first world under the guise of giving to Africa, and let her leave The Family’s old without a retirement plan. Abuse is not just sexual in nature, it's all of the above and more. Their children were abused in mass numbers, admitting it happened is only the first step towards a decent apology and a road to ensuring they're doing all they can to turn it around. Dealing with the sexual abuse is just the beginning and we’ll continue to spot light all the abuse until we start seeing our siblings prepared both emotionally, physically and economically to make it on their own outside of The Family’s oppressive system if they so decide. (reply to this comment) |
| | From tuneman7
Tuesday, July 12, 2005, 17:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
Unfortunately Joy's comments simply show the sad effects of lack of education within the group.
The very sad fact of the matter is that a child who has suffered physical, emotional, and sexual abuse does not simply "goddamn stop living in the past", even in adulthood. A young adult who has left and realizes he or she has no marketable skills and that their parents have effectively crippled their ability to make viable future for themselves because they barely have a grade-school education in their early 20s, can't simply "goddamn stop living in the past". No amount of denial is going to enable that young adult to get a job required to earn a decent living for themselves and their family when they depart with no legitimate high school diploma, and no preparation for a decent tertiary education, which is the ticket for competition in today's economy.
On the issue of social sciences, this poor girl Joy seems never to have looked Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in the eye and realize the life-long effects of rape on a child or young teenager. A young man or woman who was left to languish in a victor camp for years shouldn't be expected to simply "goddamn get over it". What lunacy these cult leaders encourage. Anyone who knows anything about child abuse knows that the effects are generally life-long.
It’s commonly known that child abusers are kept out of the general prison population for their own protection. There is one kind of criminal who generally doesn’t last the night in the general population and that is a child molester or abuser. It’s not commonly known why that is. There are probably several reasons for this, not least of which many inmates are themselves victims of either physical or sexual abuse themselves and come from broken or non-existent homes. Many inmates attribute their criminality to their abuse as children. This is why they have no compunction about killing or abusing molesters in jail.
Even for those survivors who do not turn to crime the effects are life-long. In time people can develop coping skills and move on in their lives, but still, it’s a life-long recovery process. Of course, when one is born raised and fed on Berg’s utter tripe, one would not know this.
Zerby is the classic textbook example of someone who was severely abused in childhood turning around and perpetuating the cycle of abuse. In her own writings, she states how her parents beat her until black and blue several times. No wonder she thot it was a good idea to promote people who were known to have the quality of “wielding the rod”, such as Sara D. and all these other abusers. She’s also the textbook example of a female pedophile and female enabler of a male pedophile. Great little cookie cutter mold that Borowick seems to have come straight out of.
"Keep'm ignorant" I suppose is the leadership motto. That girl Joy ought to go out and take Psychology 101 in University or community college, she out to study Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. She should also try dating a man or woman from a normal nuclear family and experience the overhead of having to explain that her parents follow an organization founded by a raving pedophile. Maybe she can experience what Daniel, others and myself have experienced where we come close to our wits end and see little option but to almost completely disown their biological parents because they are complicit in their own abuse or abuse of their childhood friends/siblings.
Of course Daniel's parents are going to be involved in this virulent lying and denying foolishness. -- Look at their leadership they are encouraged to emulate, the biggest bunch of dishonest pedophilic nonsense mongers know to mankind. What a shame that those leaders now turn to their flock and require that they "stand up for them" masking it in the suggestion that survivors of child abuse somehow have malevolent intent towards their former childhood friends and persons who were not perpetrators of abuse or supporting perpetrators of abuse. What pathetic losers.
This hag, Borowitch, is the biggest joke known to mankind. I've seen these nonsensical letters to certain victims stating that materials on their site are "libelous", blah blah blah. I've also had opportunity to look at some doc she circulates, and presents as "court documents" from Argentina. What an idiot this girl is. Those aren't "court documents"!!!! Besides Argentina is not at all known for any sort of coolness in their legal system, largely run by the military until just recently.
Look up the U.S. State Department's sponsored efforts to reform Argentina's Legal System:
http://usinfo.state.gov/dhr/Archive/2003/Nov/14-513706.html
Also note that Borowitch's long-time partner and Family media spokesperson Lonnie Davis, is nowhere on the radar screen. Probably has something to do with the fact that he's a seasoned rapist, (Claire seems to relish relationships with child rapists). In the case of Lonnie Davis there's a clear path from him to a whole string of crimes of a physical, emotional and sexual nature, which he committed against young teenagers. More denials?!! Ask Claire about Lonnie's Son with a teenage girl in the Philippines in the 1980s. The same girl who was last reported in Thailand married to Brazilian Tiago (Sergio Drummond). DNA tests and timelines don't lie Borowitch.
Still, can't blame her that much, she's just following the sample of her "loving shepherds"
That woman should be on notice that any attempt to further disparage victims and make statements to the effect of suggesting that services were made available to victims, could easily result in civil litigation against her personally for continued emotional damage after the physical, sexual, emotional and educational abuse. Especially when you have a GN letter number on a letter chronicling the physical assault and false imprisonment of a young teenager (Mene in the "Last State"). Where is the GN Letter number offering Victor Camp inmates the services of a trauma counselor? What a liar this woman is. Every liar has his or her day.
I've heard rumors of her singling-out victims by name presenting threatening letters. Fine, we can play by those rules too!! These characters are pretty damn ludicrous. Very stupid, I guess dealing with non-English speaking media in 3rd world countries; with military junta court system gives you a false sense of security. Pretty stupid, given the current standing of many in the community of survivors of this cult. But that's all a schoolyard bully can do, rattle the saber and all that type of foolishness. Well, Claire, this isn't Argentina in the late 1980s or early 1990s where you, Claire Borowick, can rape young boys and give up my friends to your child-rapist, then-husband, Cacho, kidnap children and then besmirch and further traumatize your rape victims and the 12-year-old young girls you made sexual slaves of your perved-out husband.
I wonder where she learnt this style of operation? BINGO!!! -- Loving Mama Maria, of course! Who else? Like those bogus movie trailers, "From the Makers of 'The Last State', the 'Jumbo', Macau 'DT Program', 'Child Brides', 'Merry Time', 'The Little Girl Dream', 'Traumatic Testimonies' and many other perved-out criminal enterprises, straight from Argentina armed with her retired judge mother's mis-translations of statements from Spanish Argentine Military Tribunal, transcripts (not court documents, certainly not in English), with a long line of pedophile vicious child-abusing 'partners' including Lonnie Davis, Cacho, and many other bona-fide pervs, The Family International presents. .... (drum roll). … . Claire Borowitch!!!"
“And when they saw the criminal pervishness of Claire Borowitch and her husbands, they marveled and took knowledge of them that they had were followers of Berg, Zerby, and Peter Amsterdam.”
We already know that Borowitch can't write. That letter to the editor of Rolling Stone was so ill written I couldn’t believe it. I'm not a great writer, but if I was representing the very “Oracles of God on Earth”, as she and her ghost writers seem to think they are, I'd at least learn how to form sentences correctly so as not to reflect poorly on God. If He/She/It exists, one would expect the creator of the physical Universe to be a little bit smarter than that.
Daniel's treatment at the hands of his parents is another example of the underlings following the brave lead of their lying, child-abusing, pedophile leadership. What a total shame. Still, fits their pattern. After all, by Zerby's standards Mene wasn't actually being abused by Zerby, Berg, Peter Amsterdam, Sara Davidito, others, and the professional abuse crew at the Macau false imprisonment, child-abuse facilities, who were reporting directly to her, and whom she was personally overseeing and financing.
I digress.
Great article. Thanks to everyone who worked on it.
Tuneman7(reply to this comment) |
| | From
Wednesday, July 13, 2005, 03:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm particulary disturbed by the claim that they "offer psycological counselling" (I bet they can't name one person who this was offered too) Maybe anyone who needs it but can't afford it should write to them or put forward a request for it in an official capacity (now that we know) I'm sure loving "mamma" wouldn't want anyone else's child to suffer in the same way.
I wish!
After all the money we children earned for them they sure do owe us that.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From TF are not qualified.
Wednesday, July 13, 2005, 06:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
TF needs to realise that they are not qualified to counsel anyone let alone their own children.
Tf needs to understand that they collectivly caused their children harm and have a responsibility to rectify the situation. If that means paying for counseling to those they have harmed, it's the least they can do.
Each time TF's spokespersons speak, they are sounding even more illogical, demented and heartless. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From
Wednesday, July 13, 2005, 03:40
(Agree/Disagree?)
It is great that they don't have to suffer the way we did. But they are stilll being lied to about friends, family, parents etc.. Still living with people who "claim" amnesia-still the same old holier than thou, selfish, "we are it" attitude. Many will not be dealing with their own abuse and may continue the cycle with their own children. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from Removed
Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 09:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
[Removed at author's request]
(reply to this comment)
| from Phoenixkidd
Monday, July 11, 2005 - 11:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
A big applaud to Daniel Roselle. THank you for being brave enough to put a face on the ex-cult generation! I admire your braveness and that you are willing to sacrifice your relationship to your parents in order to get the message across--We were abused and forced to work for a cult!! Thanks again for your efforts. $50.00 and a bus ticket.. Wow I got $350.00 and no bus ticket, again I admire you.
(reply to this comment)
| From Albatross
Monday, July 11, 2005, 14:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thanks dude. This is naturally just the beginning. More fighting Pedophilia Inc. in the works. As for my relationship with my parents: They lost me when my dad told me 4 years ago with a straight face that after some prayer they did not believe that there was ever anything in Family publications that encouraged sex with children.
You got $350? My bus ticket was @ $250. So adding my $50 in cash.....you still came out about $50 ahead of me. Grrr. Damn you man!
Cheers
P.S for Claire Borowik: Please be sure to pass this comment along to Ado Kidz. Thank you kindly.(reply to this comment) |
| | from thepersoniamnow
Monday, July 11, 2005 - 02:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well they are probably including CM, FM, and Activated members. Around 3 years back there was around 9000 CM.
Granted many are kids who cant think for themselves yet
(reply to this comment)
| From JohnnieWalker
Monday, July 11, 2005, 06:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
Their membership stats for 2004 claim they had a total of 10,231 members (FD, FM and MM), so either Ms. Borowik is quoting outdated statistics, or they are including Activated members, too.
An interesting side note is that according to the stats collected on http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Statistics, they have been losing between 9.4% to 10% of their members every year. Add to that the fact that over 2,000 of their current members will die of old age within the next 15 - 20 years and I'd give the group only another 15 years before they cease to exist of their own accord. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from SeanSwede
Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 22:06
 (Agree/Disagree?)
They claim to have 12.000 members? BS! They most likely only have about 4000 at the utter most...and diminishing steadily and gradually. LOL!
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | From yes
Monday, July 11, 2005, 07:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
handout= states(including children)
*Family diciples = 4,884
*missionary members = 1,769
*Fellow members + 3,549
*In addition roughly 78,000 general members worldwide. (I would say they are counting Fish, ex-members and their children. Those who haven't spoken out against them and prefer to forget.) (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From conan
Thursday, July 14, 2005, 11:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
I don't know about you but I for one am not prepared to sit back and wait 50 years to see the group finally fall apart and disband due to lack of membership. Fuck that! You may be happy to sit back and watch this group of molesting, abusing, beating, lying fuckers live out the remainder of their lives in relative peace, but I'm not!
I didn't have a childhood that didn't involve my being either exploited for the cult's gain, or my being beaten for the cult's masochistic, pleasure seeking, perverted pupulation of first generation members. Fuck dude, (or dudette) fifty fucking years is not the sort of time I want to put into feeling satisfied that those who wronged me so grievously will no longer be able to harm others in the same way or to merely know that they are no danger to anyone anymore because they're too 'fragile'. Shit, I'll be in my 70's in 50 years and may not even remember why I'm so happy to see some obscure cult of 300 call it quits.
I'm not saying I want to kill them all or anything, but I sure as shit am not gonna sit back and watch hoping they shrink in size and power for the next five to six decades. I deserve so much better...we deserve so much better, and if we don't get the results we want and so desperately need for our stability and mental health, well than at least I'll know that I made the effort and wasn't just happy to sit by and watch.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From
Tuesday, July 12, 2005, 12:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
Fair enough-14 of may 2005. I would love to tell you all the full extent of the meeting but they implement the "Chatham house rules" and so I am unable to go into the details. Seeing as how this relates big time to the issue of how many members they claim to have, I wanted to disclose this figure. (by the way, they are one third adults who joined, one third second gen, one third third gen.) So less than half are adult-joined TF- members, hence the 4000 member figure. They should'nt include ofspring as members. (reply to this comment) |
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