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from exister Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 14:40 (Agree/Disagree?) This explains some recent migrations in the Family. The damn thing is becoming like a corporation with all of it's rules and endless meetings. If we must choose one thing that will precipitate civilization's inevitable demise it will be meetings. And hey look at that, they're gonna write a computer program. Good for fucking them! It will probably take a dozen of them a year to suss out what your average CS graduate could bang out in a week. Or wait, maybe they will receive visions of source code from The Lord along with all of their art and revelations. (reply to this comment)

from EyesWideShut Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 10:37 (Agree/Disagree?) Whatever happened to "Jesus loves you just the way you are"??? (reply to this comment)

from steam Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 10:02 (Agree/Disagree?) Bye bye Charter. The failed experiment. The pendulum goes in the other direction. We know with absolute certainty based on 100% previous experience, it will not stop until it reaches a complete extreme where all common sense is thrown out the window, in favor of the "rules" applied with no sensitivity to individual situations, and no regard to a simple question "what would Jesus do?". Leadership will become more and more powerful. Interestingly they were able to recognize that homes can be abiding by the technical Charter rules while really being run by one couple. I can garuntee you whatever the technical rules remain, leadership will revert back to it's pre-charter power and abuses with no one standing up to them regardless of their supposed technical "rights". I can't say the exact speed of the pendulum swing, but I know where it will end up. (reply to this comment)

From Vicky Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 10:41 (Agree/Disagree?) We can hope that having had a taste of relative freedom, at least in theory, a lot of people won't be able to hack it once things become more strict. Many people haven't lived in 'combos' for a long time, and are used to having personal money, etc. They'll probably find it very difficult to adjust to communal living again, so we may have quite a substantial flood of people leaving in the next year or so. That reminds me, does anyone have any details of how things went in Brazil during the probationary period? Did a lot of people (especially young people) leave? (reply to this comment)

From xhrisl Friday, March 12, 2004, 03:19 (Agree/Disagree?) Your comment got me to wondering---after looking at the membership numbers on this site (i.e. all of us who have acquired a taste for freedom, personal $, ectra) if we aren't fast approaching a greater membership number of actual "adults" than TF itself? LOL. Maybe Jules knows? (reply to this comment)

from anovagrrl Monday, March 08, 2004 - 22:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Heavens to Betsy! Sounds like Jesus has hired on as the Zerbmeister-Petehead's management consultant. Evaluations and checklists! What's next? Outcome measures based on yearly projections of cash flow? I'm sooo impressed! What could be more transformative than a standardized measure of spiritual fascism? (reply to this comment)

from highonhigh Monday, March 08, 2004 - 16:49 (Agree/Disagree?) Zerby & Kelly once again is asking of their followers, what they are not willing to do. They Run TF like a kingdom where they are the Queen & King, They have their own way of doing things & defenetly not open to discussion or debate & you can only exercise your rights of choice if you choose "mom & pop" way of doing things. This is paragraph $& from the GN. 47. "Even if such Homes don't establish rules or policies that are contrary to the Word or the Charter, just the fact that they're run like little kingdoms‚ where those in charge are used to having their way and only doing things their way, is contrary to the Charter. If "mom and pop" aren't allowing the other Home members to exercise their rights of choice and self-determination, to determine by prayer‚ discussion, debate and voting, the nature, goals, direction and activities of the Home, then they aren't true Charter Homes living the CM standard". (reply to this comment)

from Wolf Monday, March 08, 2004 - 15:45 (Agree/Disagree?) Sounds like one of the Soviet Communist’s five year plans, also known as “giant leaps”. Generally they were giant leaps backwards. (reply to this comment)

From EyesWideShut Thursday, March 11, 2004, 10:39 (Agree/Disagree?) If not a leap backwards, a leap that always lands you in a whopping pile of dog shit.(reply to this comment)

From xhrisl Tuesday, March 09, 2004, 07:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I found your insightful review of history applied hysterical---damn, it would have failed to be so funny where it not so sadly true.(reply to this comment)

From Albatross Monday, March 08, 2004, 15:52 (Agree/Disagree?) It reminds me of the editorial cartoon around the time of the Pro-Democracy revolt in China. The communist chief tells the crowd, "Smile, martial law in china has been lifted. Anyone not smiling, will be shot."(reply to this comment)

From Soldier Lane Arizona Monday, March 08, 2004, 19:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Random thoughts: Anybody notice that the "Children of David" have now become " The Children of David, Maria, and Peter"? "21.(Jesus) This day marks a great move forward for the children of David, Maria, and Peter! " It lacks the catchy ring of "Children of David." Singing: "We are the children of David, Maria, and Peter...they are our mountain....um....um triumverate. We kiss all the words of their honey mouths as we play and dance and sing. Doesn't quite roll off the tongue does it? Question: If this is the "Era of obedience", What will we call the preceding era, "The Era of disobedience?" Family Categories: CM: Cult Member FM: Fake member MM: Money Making member BM: Bad member AM: Alcoholic member TM: Transcendental Member...oops sorry..wrong cult PM: Peter's member I'm sorry...did they say SIX months without movies, TV, Novels, Computer games, Internet??????? Are they suicidal? How are TF young people going to dull the pain of cult life? I mean..besides the obvious having sex. They still can have sex right? Ohhhh sucks to be in Brazil! Looks like they get to do it all over again. Man, Brazil....you really pissed Zerby off. What's this? There is a "Show me the money revelation?" I can see it now.....Jesus shirtless screaming to Zerby on the phone saying "SHOW ME THE MONEY"!!!!! "Say it with me Zerby, "SHOW ME THE MONEY"!!!! Berg was a bad bad man..but he was very skilled at being a cult leader. Zerby is a bad bad woman......and an even worse cult leader. She should write a book: Messing with a bad thing: How I destroyed my retirement plan cult in 10 years.(reply to this comment)

From EyesWideShut Thursday, March 11, 2004, 10:41 (Agree/Disagree?) You're an awsome writer. Genius. New on this site??(reply to this comment)

From Not new Thursday, March 11, 2004, 14:25 (Agree/Disagree?) No Sunny, not new. You know me. It's just my punchy alter ego you just read.(reply to this comment)

From EyesWideShut Thursday, March 11, 2004, 20:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Dang! Now you've got me tryna figure out who you are...I know you? Hmm.(reply to this comment)

From Dragon Thursday, March 11, 2004, 21:52 (Agree/Disagree?) I paint(reply to this comment)

From xhrisl Tuesday, March 09, 2004, 07:23 (Agree/Disagree?) Now that is a great analogy, congrads---I enjoyed reading it.(reply to this comment)

From Soldier Lane Arizona Monday, March 08, 2004, 19:16 (Agree/Disagree?) Random thoughts: Anybody notice that the "Children of David" have now become " The Children of David, Maria, and Peter"? "21.(Jesus) This day marks a great move forward for the children of David, Maria, and Peter! " It lacks the catchy ring of "Children of David." Singing: "We are the children of David, Maria, and Peter...they are our mountain....um....um triumverate. We kiss all the words of their honey mouths as we play and dance and sing. Doesn't quite roll off the tongue does it? Question: If this is the "Era of obedience", What will we call the preceding era, "The Era of disobedience?" Family Categories: CM: Cult Member FM: Fake member MM: Money Making member BM: Bad member AM: Alcoholic member TM: Transcendental Member...oops sorry..wrong cult PM: Peter's member I'm sorry...did they say SIX months without movies, TV, Novels, Computer games, Internet??????? Are they suicidal? How are TF young people going to dull the pain of cult life? I mean..besides the obvious having sex. They still can have sex right? Ohhhh sucks to be in Brazil! Looks like they get to do it all over again. Man, Brazil....you really pissed Zerby off. What's this? There is a "Show me the money revelation?" I can see it now.....Jesus shirtless screaming to Zerby on the phone saying "SHOW ME THE MONEY"!!!!! "Say it with me Zerby, "SHOW ME THE MONEY"!!!! Berg was a bad bad man..but he was very skilled at being a cult leader. Zerby is a bad bad woman......and an even worse cult leader. She should write a book: Messing with a bad thing: How I destroyed my retirement plan cult in 10 years.(reply to this comment)

From Puzzled Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 11:30 (Agree/Disagree?) CM members get nothing the MM members don't? FM=Fairly Moronic MM=Medicated Member CM=Crazy Masochist(reply to this comment)

from Alf Monday, March 08, 2004 - 14:48 (Agree/Disagree?) I guess the TF are downsizing since their customer relations have fallen on rocky times. (reply to this comment)

from Jules Monday, March 08, 2004 - 12:22 (Agree/Disagree?) This is taken from a document titled: "Forward, Always Forward! Restructuring the Family of the Future, Part 1" (January 2004) The full publication can be downloaded here: http://www.movingon.org/documents/gn1067.rtf (reply to this comment)

From xhrisl Friday, March 12, 2004, 03:22 (Agree/Disagree?) You're awesome, and an astute researcher, thanks for the link.(reply to this comment)

From oldtimer Thursday, May 13, 2004, 12:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Here's a cut an paste from the following link--it just LOOKS like it was written for TF et al. Check it out. I know, I'm just an old fart trespassing on SGA territory! I really do care about you guys, though (or y'all, since I'm in Houston, TX--there are alot of FGA's in this city!). I've posted this elsewhere. It would delight me if current member read it. There's a whole lot of HUMANITY (including some justifiable rage, understandable pain, promiscuity), and, most of all, some very good humor, on this webpage! Some of your stuff really cracks me up--sometimes with some real private tears--I'm praying for all of you whether you like that idea or not! ________________________________________________ http://rightcyberup.org/mckean.html#leader http://www.fwselijah.com/psychopa.htm Intro Characteristics of a Cult Leader Trait 1: Glibness/superficial charm Trait 2: Manipulative and conning Trait 3: Grandiose sense of self Trait 4: Pathological lying Trait 5: Lack of remorse, shame or guilt Trait 6: Shallow emotions Trait 7: Incapacity for love Trait 8: Need for stimulation Trait 9: Callousness/lack of empathy Trait 10: Poor behavioral controls/impulsive nature Trait 11: Early behavior problems/juvenile delinquency Trait 12: Irresponsibility/unreliability Trait 13: Promiscuous sexual behavior/infidelity Trait 14: Lack of realistic life plan/parasitic lifestyle Trait 15: Criminal or entrepreneurial versatility Trait 1: Glibness/superficial charm Able to use language effortlessly to beguile, confuse, and convince. They are captivating storytellers. They exude self-confidence and are able to spin a web that intrigues others and pulls them into the [cult leader’s] life…most of all, they are persuasive. Frequently, they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or disarm them emotionally. Trait 2: Manipulative and conning Do not recognize the individuality or rights of others, which makes all self-serving behaviors permissible. [a most common manipulation is]…the psychopathic maneuver, which is essentially interpersonal manipulation “based on charm. The manipulator appears to be helpful, charming even ingratiating or seductive, but is covertly hostile, domineering…” Trait 3: Grandiose sense of self Enjoys tremendous feelings of entitlement…[and]…believes everything is owed to him as a right. Preoccupied with his own fantasies, he must always be the center of attention. He presents himself as the ‘Ultimate One’: enlightened, a vehicle of god, a genius, the leader of humankind, and sometimes even the most humble of humble. He has an insatiable need of adulation and attendance. His grandiosity may also be a defense against inner emptiness, depression, and a sense of insignificance…paranoia often accompanies the grandiosity, reinforcing the isolation of the group and the need for protection against a perceived hostile environment. In this way, he creates an us-versus-them mentality. Trait 4: Pathological lying Lie coolly and easily, even when it is obvious they are being untruthful. It is almost impossible for them to be consistently truthful about either a major or minor issue. They lie for no apparent reason, even when it would seem easier and safer to tell the truth…[and are pathological liars, as they]…tend to create a complex belief system, often about their own powers and abilities, in which they themselves sometimes get caught up. It is often difficult to determine whether the lies are an actual delusional distortion of reality or are expressed with the conscious or unconscious intent to deceive…[and]…these manipulators are rarely original thinkers. Plagiarists and thieves, they seldom credit the true originators of ideas, often co-opting authorship… Trait 5: Lack of remorse, shame or guilt See those around them as objects, targets, or opportunities, not as people. They do not have friends, they have victims and accomplices – and the latter frequently end as victims. For [cult leaders], the ends always justify the means. Thus there is no place for feelings of remorse, shame, or guilt. Cult leaders feel justified in all their actions since they consider themselves the ultimate moral arbiter. Nothing gets in their way. Trait 6: Shallow emotions Hiding behind the “mask of sanity”, the cult leader exposes feelings insofar as they serve an ulterior motive. He/she (Zerby!) can witness or order acts of utter brutality without experiencing a shred of emotion. He/she casts him[her]self in a role of total control, which he/she plays to the hilt. What is most promised in cults – peace, joy, enlightenment, love, and security – are goals that are forever out of reach of the leader, and thus also the followers. Since the leader is not genuine, neither are his promises. Trait 7: Incapacity for love As the “living embodiment of God’s love,” the leader is tragically flawed in being able to either give or receive love… The leader’s tremendous need to be loved is accompanied by an equally strong disbelief in the love offered him by his followers…[and]…hence the often unspeakably cruel and harsh testing of his devotees. Unconditional surrender is an absolute requirement… Trait 8: Need for stimulation [Exhibits] thrill-seeking behaviors, often skirting the letter or spirit of the law, are common among [cult leaders]…[and]…live[s] on the edge, constantly testing the beliefs of their followers, often with increasingly bizarre behaviors, punishments, and rules. Other mechanisms of stimulation come in the form of unexpected, seemingly spontaneous outbursts, which usually take the form of verbal abuse and sometimes physical punishment. The [cult leader] has a cool indifference to things around him/her, yet his/her icy coldness can quickly turn into rage, vented on those around him/her. Trait 9: Callousness/lack of empathy Readily take advantage of others, expressing utter contempt for anyone else’s feelings. Someone in distress is not important to them. Although intelligent, perceptive, and quite good at sizing people up, they make no real connections with others. They use their “people skills” to exploit, abuse, and wield power…[and]…are unable to empathize with the pain of their victims… Trait 10: Poor behavioral controls/impulsive nature Have difficulty regulating their emotions, like small children . Adults who have temper tantrums are frightening to be around. Rage and abuse, alternating with token expressions of love and approval, produce an addictive cycle for both abuser and abused, as well as create a sense of hopelessness in the latter…[and]… believes himself/herself to be all-powerful, all-knowing, and entitled to every wish, someone who has no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for the impact on those around himher…[and]…generally this aberrant behavior is a well-kept secret, known only to a few disciples. The others see only perfection… Trait 11: Early behavior problems/juvenile delinquency Frequently have a history of behavioral and academic difficulties. They often “get by” academically, conning other students and teachers. Encounters with juvenile authorities are frequent….Equally prevalent are difficulties in peer relationships and developing and keeping friends, marked control problems, and other aberrant behaviors such as stealing, fire setting, and cruelty to others. Trait 12: Irresponsibility/unreliability Not concerned about the consequences of their behavior, [they]…leave behind them the wreckage of others’ lives and dreams. They may be totally oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they inflict on others, something which they regard as neither their problem nor their responsibility…[and they]…rarely accept blame for their failures or mistakes. Scapegoating is common, blaming followers, those outside the group, a member’s family, the government, Satan – anyone and everyone but the leader… Trait 13: Promiscuous sexual behavior/infidelity Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, polygamy, rape, and sexual acting out of all sorts are frequently practiced by cult leaders. Conversely, there is often stringent sexual control of the followers through such tactics as enforced celibacy, arranged marriages, forced breakups and divorces, removal of children from their parents, forced abortions or mandated births. For [them], sex is primarily a control and power issue… Trait 14: Lack of realistic life plan/parasitic lifestyle Tend to move around a lot, making countless efforts at “starting over” while seeking out fertile new ground to exploit…[and…the flip side of this erratic life planning is the all-encompassing promise for the future that the cult leader makes to his/her followers. Many groups claim as their goal world domination or salvation at the Apocalypse. The leader is the first to proclaim the utopian nature of the group, which is usually simply another justification for irrational behavior and stringent controls…[and]…the leader’s sense of entitlement is often demonstrated by the contrast between his/her luxurious lifestyle and the impoverishment of his/her followers…[and]…most…are supported by gifts and donations from their followers, who may be pressured to turn over much of their income and worldly possessions to the group… Trait 15: Criminal or entrepreneurial versatility Change their image and that of the group as needed to avoid prosecution and litigation, to increase income, and to recruit a range of members…[and they]… have an innate ability to attract followers who have the skills and connections that the leaders lack. The longevity of the group is dependent on the willingness of the leadership to adapt as needed and preserve the group… _______________________________________________ Interesting, NO? (reply to this comment)

From I remember Monday, March 08, 2004, 16:24 (Agree/Disagree?) a while back someone posted a comment on the site about having info that the whole Family was going to be put on probation the way they were in Brazil, and he got a few remarks about not jumping to conclusions, and that others heard it was not true, etc. I'm thinking that this is what he was talking about, but they aren't calling it probation, "this is not a punishment, it's a renewing, blah, blah, blah." Of course, there are probably quite a few people in TF who DO feel that no movies, books, internet, system music, or anything not Family for 6 months IS punishment. They keep claiming it's not punishment, but the only "fun" thing they are not taking away from them is alcohol. Oh, big whooptie-doo.(reply to this comment)

From Johnny Friday, March 12, 2004, 01:49 (Agree/Disagree?) The minimum of 6 adults per home is strictly the launching of a game plan for retirement. Zerby and Kelly both realize that their members are getting older and they need to structure a support system within the next decade to support the now "Grandparents for Christ" before it bites them in the butt. By commingling 18 year olds with the older adult populace, they’re setting the stage for their youth to be the backbone of their retirement. The family has always found strength in numbers, and as is typical to them, the little apples on the bottom shoulder most of the load. I’ve been watching this for a while to see how they would cope with old age, one way is obviously what they’re doing, the 2nd is in their recruiting of new members from 2nd and 3rd world countries such as Russia and Eastern Europe. After the 60's/70's era had passed in the states, their new recruits from here dried up. Berg realized then that the only way they would continue to survive would be to "adopt a nation" and prey on the weak of the East. From a fiscal point of view, Japan and Western Europe were ideal fishing holes for dissatisfied rich youth, which meant a larger pay check. As these places dried up they concentrated their efforts on 2nd tiered nations, which brought in large numbers of disciples. Even though initially the gamble was costly in the sense that they had to send in massive quantities of support to jump start the programs, now it’s obviously paying off. I was surprised to hear that the family in China were obligated to tithe, typically churches support their efforts in far flung fields. Their scrapping now for a plan since Jesus never did return on time. Watching this unfold is only going to get more interesting and much more difficult for us SGA’s as our parents come knocking on our doors for hand outs. The FED wants a decrease in Social Security spending to prepare for the windfall of baby boomers hitting retirement in the next 6-10 years. You can only imagine the chaos that will be hitting the family within that same period. (reply to this comment)

From xhrisl Friday, March 12, 2004, 03:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Anyone remember the “Be Prepared” revolution of the late 70’s and early 80’s wherein Berg told everyone to invest in survival gear and to buy ranches and trailers? Needless to say a few years latter those same FM’s were told to sell it all and move to the ripe fields of the east. It now appears that even those few who did have some tangible assets long ago and sold them are in the same boat with the rest of the Zerbmiester’s with the new revolution entitled, “Be Prepared---To Be Screwed!”(reply to this comment)

From xhrisl Friday, March 12, 2004, 03:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Anyone remember the “Be Prepared” revolution of the late 70’s and early 80’s wherein Berg told everyone to invest in survival gear and to buy ranches and trailers? Needless to say a few years latter those same FM’s were told to sell it all and move to the ripe fields of the east. It now appears that even those few who did have some tangible assets long ago and sold them are in the same boat with the rest of the Zerbmiester’s with the new revolution entitled, “Be Prepared---To Be Screwed!”(reply to this comment)

From Johnny Friday, March 12, 2004, 12:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Zerby and Kelly love access to inheritances. Does anyone remember the original summit videos they put out when Kelly’s face was first shown on video? Well, if you were watching closely you’ll notice that he was wearing a big ass Rolex. I remember meeting him (he was still wearing the watch) and his explanation for it at the time was that when his parents passed on an inheritance to him he requested that instead of it being in the form of $$, to "invest it" into a Rolex. His intention was to show us how he was following what Berg was preaching about the "fall of the dollar", but instead it struck us as extremely hypocritical as WS was constantly requesting everyone to donate their dead relative's proceeds to the family machine, and here Peter was wearing his. Needless to say, you’ll never see that watch worn on another summit video, the bling got a bit too bright. (reply to this comment)

From Lilac Monday, November 01, 2004, 09:34 (Agree/Disagree?) Just to add to your comment about inheirtances. I received an inheritance when I was about 17. Someone told me that I was blessed. I didn't know what they were talking about. Then they told me I got an inheritance. As they read my mail before I did. Someone read it too me, as back then I was 17 & still as "kid". HA ! Anyway, I was in one home & they were waiting for it to come in the mail & I didn't get it. Then when I moved to anotehr home two months later, it came. So the previous home I was in said they felt since I was in their home when I got the letter, they should get half & the home I was in wanted half. So it wasn't even my choice. Neither home thanked me for "sharing it". I got about 1% of the inheirtance. Even then I had to ask before I could spend any. I had to go through all the channels just to but something. Shows how those homes cared only about my inheritance. TF is supposed to be communal living , but it never is. The leaders of the home get their needs. It 's like communism & it doesn't work. At least if you make your own money & pay your portion of the bills, I don't see what is wrong with having some money so you can get your kids needs & even have money saved for what ever you want to save up for. If TF would change in a lot of different aspects, "maybe " people wouldn't have left. They will never give up on some of their beliefs & say they are wrong. I think that's another reason people have left, because they'd suggest changes & they would be put down & corrected. So why bother anymore. I believe there were good people in TF & some just wanted to witness & care for their family, but the family makes things so compilcated with all these rules & changes that they make it almost impossible for a home to run properly. Like they don't want you to do anything but read teh word all day, but make lots of money for WS. And the kids needs would always be last. Well, I won't say anymore you all know what it's like & was like. I guess it's helpful for me to get these things off my heart. Seems like a lot of us need help to get all these life experiences off our hearts.(reply to this comment)