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Getting Out : Seeking Justice
Does TF need to be dissolved | from noname - Tuesday, February 24, 2004
accessed 2850 times Answer these questions. It is clear to anyone that the family has been off track for a very long time. A lot needs to be done.
Feel free to give some input:
1) Are TF's 'good works' enough to keep the group alive, and why?
2) Some people feel TF cannot be reformed, what are the reasons for this?
3) I have relatives still 'in'. They seem to be doing good things and serving God etc. Should I leave them alone?
4) Alot has changed in TF is it real progress or is it just a front? Do you think TF is getting worse?
5) What do you think God wants? |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from Vicky
Friday, February 18, 2005 - 08:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
LOL!!!
(reply to this comment)
| from exister
Friday, February 18, 2005 - 08:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
Let's see
1) No. They don't let the rapists out of prison just because they find God do they?
2) Entrenched evil.
3) I have relatives in. They are all grown up. They can get jobs at Wal-Mart for all I care.
4) Psychological bondage is evil, hence the Family will always be evil.
5) Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner in the "Dumbest Question Ever" contest!
(reply to this comment)
| from dare2b
Friday, February 18, 2005 - 07:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
There are some interesting questions here. I have been giving thought to some scenarios and so far none are particularly bright. Here we go:
1) Are TF's 'good works' enough to keep the group alive, and why?
I am quite sure that many folks within the TF are convinced of the value of their good works. But TF has a long history of emphasising output and cutting corners on matters seemingly less important. A house built on sand may stand for a while, but the heavier the weight of the upper structure needed for appearances, the sooner it will collapse. The Achilles heel is the issue of honesty, credibility and truth. Without absolutely drastic changes in that and other areas, TF will lose its audience and support base, suffer attrition from lack of new members and increasing defections and over time may well simply implode. The organisation and its practices are simply unsustainable.
2) Some people feel TF cannot be reformed, what are the reasons for this?
A look at the history of authoritarian regimes or movements shows that long-entrenched leadership increasingly loses touch with reality and make bigger and bigger mistakes while still convinced of their invincibility. Part of this is the groupthink that reinforces thinking around what people want to hear. But you can also read All Things Change J The top never wants to change because it wants to stay on top. It is unrealistic to think they can be part of the change.
3) I have relatives still 'in'. They seem to be doing good things and serving God etc. Should I leave them alone?
Pray! Do as God leads.
4) A lot has changed in TF is it real progress or is it just a front? Do you think TF is getting worse?
I don’t see the signs, other than measures to blunt criticism. TF has so undermined its own credibility that it is hard to believe there is genuine progress.
5) What do you think God wants? Truthfulness from TF and TF individuals. Contrition. Get real and face up to what happened with victims of abuse. Go through the catharsis. Put these wrongs right from a perspective of genuine heartfelt concern, not self-preservation.
(reply to this comment)
| from Jeannie
Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 18:15
(Agree/Disagree?)
Can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit? The trunk of the tree and it's roots, (which are in the Berg/Zerby Letters and dependence on self-serving and corrupt leadership) are rotten, right? It's about 35 years too late for the "tree doctor" to come and fix it!! There are a lot of very kind and caring people in the family who want to help others, but I know from experience that it takes years and years of being out to recover. I am still making adjustments to my thinking and belief system every day, and I've been out for 13 years! It has been a very long road for me. But for the second generation,still inside, who don't have the benefit of a normal upbringing as a frame of reference or an education as a foundation, what would they base their lives and work on?
TF really needs to be "taken out" as an organization. There are many people in there who could do a lot more good if they were on the outside and lived good lives helping people in their local churches or becoming good citizens. The older generation were robbed of our education, but for the second generation there is still time to start over. My husband is 52 and is stillin college trying to get his Associate's Degree. He should have had it back in the 70's!
I find the recent events regarding Angela and Ricky heartbreaking and heartwrenching. But maybe this event will serve as a catalyst to bring down TF's leadership. At least it would have served a purpose for others, and not have been in vain.
(reply to this comment)
| from noname
Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 17:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thanks ppl,
i'm all done with this thread, hope it was as fun for you as it was for me.
noname
(reply to this comment)
| from Baxter
Monday, March 01, 2004 - 08:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
God is Dead- Neitche
I wouldn't worry too much about what GOd wants.
The good things the family does are a) a smoke screen to gloss over their image and b)a profitable means to an end.
But don't worry about it. like the previous comment states, the family will destroy itself!
(reply to this comment)
|  From Dani
Wednesday, March 03, 2004, 07:49
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Philosopher Bertrand Russell wrote:
"'Religion is based . . . mainly upon fear . . . fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand . . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race.'"
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From farmer
Wednesday, March 03, 2004, 01:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
Assuming, that you didn't mix up poor sanitary conditions with poor mental health (mens sana in corpore sano), I further assume, that you insinuate, that through some of my postings (or,gosh, all?),
I displayed a "poor" standard of reflecting, un-healthy reasoning...of course I prefer being proven by example,
...or is it rather, that you're referring to my bad choice (poor reasoning!!!agreed!!!) of staying too long in that awful cult...in that regard I've learned from my mistakes, I moved on,... believe me, I could easily wish, I wouldn't have made them...or you include both & more possibilities...
however, I like to inform you, that even at the worst scenario, I don't feel any insult by your comment...after all, who are you anyway?...& if you are the yardstick of all sanity,pls. continue to lecture us...I suggest transforming your Farm Aid into World Aid The world needs you!!!!
By the way, if I'd need further aid - sure I do!!! - how could I contact you????
Seriously, read in a good biography of the mental state of Nietzsche in his last condition & I guess, you wouldn't wish that to anyone, nor did you realize that while writing your comment & therefore couldn't possibly compare(unless you're the kind, who takes pleasure in insults).Try again!
(Worth mentioning: Nietzsche was plenty smart, gifted & talented(musically etc.)...even the son of a pastor...yet..)(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from lochnymph
Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 21:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think it's obvious that the Family is desolving itself. They keep calling themselfs the Gideons Band junk, but it's not going to last. It'll be gone in a few years. Too bad not any sooner. Berg was crazy, always was, he managed to gain the respect of some hippies, the ones who where not only societys rejects, but hippie rejects as well. It was never ment to be. Everyone who is still willing to die for those crazy beliefs, are just, well, crazy.
(reply to this comment)
| from DarkAngel
Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 19:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
In the controversy of going for the group versus individuals imo just go for the group in general ,and the innocents will be spared .
Dumb sheep do Not know what is best for them ,if we can successfully damage he group legally,then some folks who are just in the group because they don't know what else to do ,or have been in too long ,or are afraid to take the first step,or are just simply become totally blind to reality due to Zerby and Kelly's propaganda will find themselves suddenly cut from this spiritual slop feeding and slowly wake up to a new world order ,then they can make their own decisions as to what to do with their lives. I'll bet that it could deflate the Fam.ranks big time and some of the ones that howls against this kind of tactics would probably be thankfull it happens after a while .Once the Fam. ranks go down considerably it would be hard for most of the hard heads to survive financially and physically too as most of the top folks do not work for money and haven't done so from many blue moons...
(reply to this comment)
| from Anthony
Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 13:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
Answer to # 5:
Who gives an ass-fuck what God wants? What I want is to see a desistance of dumb articles. But then again, I also want to see a perpetual movement machine... some things will never happen, but I guess one can always wish!!
(reply to this comment)
| From exister
Tuesday, March 02, 2004, 10:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
I thought I had invented a perpetual motion machine when I was 12. Obviously it didn't work out. I would have figured this our earlier if the Family Fascists had let me get hip to the Laws of Thermodynamics. Instead I spent hours doodling the design of my PMM, which were probably interpreted as Satanic scribblings by the shepherds. That might explain all of the exorcisms and hard (reply to this comment) |
| | from cassy
Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 06:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
It's WS and family leadership that need to get exposed and hunted down. Anything else is not worth it. I bet 100% that if Sara D. did get a court order out for her and we went after her, Zerby would excommunicate her (at least publicly). They are only concerned with self preservation and will let go of anyone who will harm the overall group. Then there defence would be "Well, she's not one of us now." Sadly, there are others also not "members" on paper only. Classic case is Eman Artist, worst abuser in F. history. Though he is not an official member, they still to this day pay him to do art for most of their GP kids books and other tools (basically they support him). Zerby would still have him in if it weren't for the slack it would cause big time.
(reply to this comment)
| From Banshee
Thursday, February 26, 2004, 09:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
I am leaning more towards this opinion as well; that TF as a group, and their leadership should be prosecuted. I know there has been a lot of different discussions of late pertaining to individuals, and as of now it seems that the majority of us lean towards going after individuals. But I have been wondering if that will be the most successful.
I have personally suffered a lot of abuse, and I would like nothing more than to see each of those perpetrators facing criminal charges and put behind bars. But there are problems with this, as others have brought up. Some of them are the problems with finding them and where these people are today. I could find some of them, sure, but some of them are no longer in TF, some of them are oversees (and what a hassle that would be to get them extradited) and then some of them were nationals, and are just gone with no way to track them down. Then if I found them, there is the problem with the statutes of limitations. I am pretty sure that they have all passed for me.
There are many “public” individuals in TF that stand out as abusers and are guilty as hell (like Sara D.), and even though it would be very satisfying to see them pay for their crimes, they are not MY personal abusers. Those who suffered personally from them would have to be the ones to get them charged and to face them in court. But yet some of these people did have a major part in my abuse, because my parents and caretakers and other individuals that abused me in TF were following their example and the general atmosphere of TF and the letters that Berg was writing. So in my mind they (and TF as a whole) are responsible for my abuse, even though I never met them personally.
So this is why I would like to see TF as a group prosecuted. I am not sure how easy it would be to get criminal charges brought up, but I am thinking that we must have a fairly good chance at suing them big time. I agree with Cassy, that TF will feed anyone to the sharks to keep their own boat afloat, so I say hit them where it hurts: their money. Sue the whole damn group for damages: emotional, educational, mental, physical, etc. for every last one of us. They couldn’t get OJ for criminal charges, yet they made their case monetarily, and it proved him guilty just by that.
We might never see any one behind bars (which is a horrible shame), but I am thinking that we would be more successful just to sue them. I mean, think of the publicity…they certainly wouldn’t be getting any more NFL support! ;) If we make it a big enough case, and a big enough splash, they wouldn’t be able to show their face in too many places when we were done with them.
That’s just my two cents.(reply to this comment) |
| | From noname
Friday, February 27, 2004, 05:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
I definitely agree with this kind of logic. The dreaded class action lawsuit. But I also feel strongly that anyone who could seek individual damages, to be absolutely sure that it can't be done before persuing a class action lawsuit.
I want to see the family come to terms with all the crap that berg talked. He said some stuff that is just plain ridiculous like the the letter about the woman who was raped and murdered because she didn't tithe.
The goal is to get the family to deny the teachings of berg, i feel that that would be one of the best catalysts in breaking the entranced state that the sheep have.
Check it out. Lets say that the victims of personal, proveable abuses where able to start any sort of lagal inquiry. The leadership would know that that would bring the family's early teachings into alot of judges' radars. it is inevitable that the family's docrines would be looked at with woeful distain.
Lord justice ward wasn't prosecuting a rape case so he ruled rather indirectly on that whole topic. as long as the family sticks to their no child sex policy, all is well. He also is a European judge. Everyone knows that European judges are pussys. (Maybe its time for a little Texas justice)
Anyways, my theory is that if alot people manage to get some sort of legal gears grinding, the family would know that many of these people would indict berg. who would take a bullet to preserve old COG doctrines. What if they got off because they where 'under the influence of berg's teachings'? Then ofcourse people would ask what the official view of berg is. they couldn't side with convicted criminals. by denying berg, they would prove that he was off his rocker and there goes the foundation. Hell, even maria would have no credibility because she inherited it from the mad man.
I hope it isn't just a pipe dream because a class action lawsuit, I feel, will only intrench the leadership. and the little people would defend thier leader. Maria is sick, she knows that the ex-members want her head, yet she makes the rest of the family feel as if they are on trial.
The family reminds me alot of America. the leadership can do as they damn please yet it is the working poor who die in the war.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Albatross
Thursday, February 26, 2004, 10:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree in theory. However, I tend to think that we must use anything presented to us, any weakness, and chink in the armour (if you will). I believe that for many of us this has moved beyond the theoretical stage and on to where it's just a question of not if, but when, and not why, but how. As our effort at seeking justice evolves, it may be that going after the individuals directly responsible for our abuse will lead us up the ladder to the guilty who sit at the top. I just don't want to make the philosophical decision to exclude anyone who played a part. So for my money: We go for the individuals, and we go for the leaders (many of whom are even more guilty than most, for direct abuse). We go for any thing we can grab onto. We must remember that many of these individuals are being protected, defended, and as in the case of Eman, supported by TF leadedership.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from Benz
Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 18:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
This is positively as bad as the Hanna Blacks poll, where she asks you whether you would rather be an HIV infected, Mongoloid, prostituted gimp dying of starvation in Africa or grow up in “TF”. – Quite ridiculous really, certainly, you can always find someone who had worse than you were brought up if you want to, but all we are/ were asking for was the basics:
…a childhood, free from sexual exploitation and forced labour, and just an ordinary standard of education.
In many ways, children who grew up in third world orphanages had it better than us.
Why don’t we have a post which asks:
Now that you are out of TF, would you rather grow up in:
TF or an affluent private catholic school?
TF or a private school without any religious connection/ curriculum?
TF or a suburban public school in a modern city?
TF or a public school in a modern city slum area?
TF or a government school in a Third world/ developing country?
TF or an international school in a Third world/ developing country?
TF or an orphanage in a modern nation?
TF or an orphanage in a Third world/ developing country?
Why do all of our options have to be for something obviously worse than “TF” – aren’t we worth more than that? Weren’t/ aren’t we worth at least what our parents (in most cases) were given, as far as education, etc.
Despite the one “selling point” The Family uses of kids having the opportunity of travelling, I doubt very much many of us have truly benefited from the countries we lived in or visited, while we were being forced to work at home, or selling religious materials, or were paraded like circus freaks with sandwich boards, ridiculous outfits and clown make-up. – All the while not realising we were entitled to far more, but which truly would have been mere basics to an “ordinary child”.
(reply to this comment)
| From Agreed!!
Wednesday, February 25, 2004, 20:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
It just makes me feel like screaming every time I have to hear that Family brainwashed propoganda of "there are so many in the world who had it so much worse than you, so quit complaining." We are not comparing with every 3rd world orphan's life out there! What I compare to is what MY life would have been like WITHOUT TF. My Grandparents have their own extremely successful business, which all my uncles and aunts work in. All of my cousins go to private schools, and every last one of them is living well above average. That is what I compare with, 'cause that's where I would have been too....(reply to this comment) |
| | From highonhigh
Tuesday, March 02, 2004, 09:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agreed with you. My parents come from a welthy family. My cousins also have everything,the oportunity to study in Europe, whatever they want. Its hard to see that & not have a kindergarden certificate to show for our family crap education. Thank God my parents where smart enough to leave in time to give the rest of my brothers & sisters the education they deserve. The life they deserve. The think I hate the most about TF & it's leadership is their manipulation of the minds & souls of so many. It took me a long time to forgive my parents for having spent so much of their lives in a cult. what help me was to see that my father was only 19 years old my mom 16 years old when they got trap by this eveil cult.(reply to this comment) |
| | From completely agreed
Sunday, February 29, 2004, 12:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
Poverty is a very real problem in this world. But poor people are generally trapped in a cycle of poverty which is difficult to break out of due to illiteracy, rapid population growth, gov'ts that do not care, etc. etc. I HATE it when TF says that they have it so much better than millions of pp in the world. I have no sympathy for pp who live that way by choice. Most pp in TF are capable of making a decent, if not good, living had they not joined or been born in TF by virtue of simply being literate and having a better education than pp who are poor due to circumstances that they cannot control.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Benz
Sunday, February 29, 2004, 22:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
while you throw around such remarks as:
"people who are obsessed"? "victims of family mis-education"? "weighing the pro's & con's"? "invoke actual conversation"? "you too are a part of the balance"? "we need a peanut gallery"?
- you obviously lack basic rudimentary language skills which would allow me to understand whatever the f*** you are trying to say.
peace, peanut...
……your own remark exemplifies the reasons for my dissatisfaction at your postings, remarks, comments and overall intelligence.
……don’t ever insinuate that I or anyone else is a part of your “balance”. I like every one else on this site is an individual, and you are neither jury, judge or umpire of “the balance”, whatever that is. – There are basic rights and wrongs which we all know, and no amount of dumb questions by you or TF are going to create a “balance” in how we accept persons or groups who have harmed, continue to harm, and who have not made amends.
The moral dilemma’s you put forward are issues you have to address and answer for yourself, if you ask others dumb circular questions, you simply end up with circular arguments and flawed reasoning.
But since you like asking dumb pros & cons questions I will ask you one:
Would you rather be kept captive in solitary confinement for 2 years, without proper food, clothing or other basic necessities, subjected to daily rapings and beatings,
Or,
Have all your arms and legs removed, but be allowed to live a “free” life afterward, with proper medical care for the rest of your life.
Since you probably chose number one, does that mean that you would LIKE to be raped?? – No, and it IS a stupid question, but no more stupid than your “pros & cons” questions.
- Is suffocating in front of a fish tank the same as drowning??
(reply to this comment) |
| | From noname
Monday, March 01, 2004, 03:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
You missed the freaking point, get over it.
Ok tell me what would constitute as justice. you decide, you are God for a day. What is the right thing to do? not revenge for what you suffered. but just plain balanced justice. for the whole entire family.
and then you have explain why you reached the conclusion.
i am not looking for a popularity contest, i knew what i wrote was controversial. but it is neccessary. you have to account for everything if you are going to make judgements about alot of ppls lives. it has to be separate from your own personal feelings. just look at the bigger picture.
peace, wingnut(reply to this comment) |
| | From Benz
Monday, March 01, 2004, 05:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
the point?? What IS the point, no-name??
You want me to make-believe I am "God" for a day. - really....well, sorry, but I got over "pretending I was god", when I was a kid in TF and that very thought was put to me as if to say "see, there's nothing you can do which would be right for everyone", as if to say, "see, the world is such a mess you CAN'T possibly do any better than we are doing", so "just accept that what we are telling you IS what god would do".
.....categorically, I don't care what "god" would do. I'm not here to argue or disprove the existance or non-existance of a "god", "god's", or THE "God".
You make it sound like you know the answer to this mysterious question "what WOULD god do"? Well.......what would god do, no-name? - I don't care personally, but have you thought that he may just be doing something right here, right now, with you talking to me, me talking to you, us all talking to each other. Maybe our arguing with eachother provides us with greater strength than we know. Perhaps our disagreeing with eachother is really our way of answering our own questions, finding out who we are, and discovering who we are as individuals instead just a part of some big mindless group? - But again, fanciful thinking, I don't want to pretend to know what "god" is thinking, I prefer to understand that life is taking it's own course, we are simply all trying to do our best to succeed at it. Is that too much to ask, is it too much that some people want justice for the wrongs done to them, and which we know to be true?
I don't care what "god" thinks, yet if I could guarantee to you that God did exist (as an omniscient being), I would not be simple enough to ask someone to "pretend you are God". - No, I know Exactly what your "point" is - though you have not done anyone the decency of actually spelling it out, your questions, using your annoying circular logic give you away for what your intentions are.
Go answer your own question about "what god would do", "what god thinks", fool!!!!
I only care that ANY Judge with common sense would know exactly what to do with TF once all the evidence is laid before them. - Our job is simply to tell our story......meanwhile......keep asking everyone you meet (including the seven faces you see in the mirror): "what WILL God do?"(reply to this comment) |
| | From noname
Monday, March 01, 2004, 06:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
i understand entirely why you are angry.
you think i am trying to get people to go soft on the family. but that's really not it.
i really want to see a more calculated effort in regards to the family. but if you have personal grievances i feel that you deserve some real satisfaction. but its really a separate issue.
what i am saying is this "if you remove your feelings from the issue, what would your case be." i understand that there are personal grievances, but i want you to think outside of that box. think of it like this,
"is the world better off if the family is dissolved, tomorrow?"
big question.
there is a lot at stake.
i really don't know the answer to this question. if i just chose to leave the family alone, i would feel guilty for allowing the family to continue its evil agenda. however, if i just mercilessly tore it down, i would feel guilty for bursting people's bubble, and i would be responsible for hurting peoples faith. most of the damage in my life was due to the sudden de-pressurization of leaving the family. i really wouldn't wish that upon anyone. to me what i really am asking is which is the lesser of two evils?
maybe i am just missing certain key factors, but i really want to get to the bottom of this issue.
don't focus on these petty details.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Tim R
Monday, March 01, 2004, 21:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
Noname asked: "...is the world better off if the family is dissolved, tomorrow?"
I would say YES. Aside from the issue of past abuse, the Family still fails to plan for their member's old age, has no health plan and skimps out on their children's education.
Those FGA's are getting older, and they have no savings, insurance or even the bare minimum of social security. Seriously, the Family needs a good union to organize it's members and start demanding accountability and intelligence from it's leaders.
Too late for that now though, but if they had kicked Berg out when the real weirdness started (70's) and done it then, they might have turned into a real religion, and not just an underground association of parasites. (I'm sorry, but selling balloons and car washing does not count as "volunteer work".)
They condemn the system and the systemites, and then depend on those same systemites to provide them with support, and toss their members out to survive in the system once they've sucked all the usefulness out of them.
Leaving is hard, there's no doubt about that. But the longer you put it off the worse it gets. Better to wake up and work through the whole culture shock thing while you still have some of your life left. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Benz
Monday, March 01, 2004, 08:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
without wanting to continue discussing this with you, let me just say I think you seem to portray conflicting ideas and opinions, and you don't seem to even notice you're doing it.
You see, I paint a picture of what I think you are trying to say based on your own comments and remarks, and then you completely deny having that opinion.
I think one of two things, either you are intentionally trying to cloud what you're saying, with double-talk, and circular logic, as a way to always "win your argument", or you're just confused, and don't realise when you're contradicting yourself, either way you are hoplessly annoying!!
so.....now you actually want to organise a "more calculated effort in regards to the family". - Wow that's great!!! short of calling you a liar, let me just say I'm not entirely convinced.
- And let me say, I don't care what you want to do in regards to "The Family". - Why don't you contact some of the people who have loudly posted on this who are currently organising legal cases against "TF". - I'm sure your ideas about "calculated efforts" will be well appreciated. - go on, just quit telling me about it and do it.
Furthermore, don't assume to tell me or anyone else not to "focus on petty details". - It is clear that you are equating "personal grievances" with "petty details", and I disagree with your obvious insinuations. - Grievances of personal natures are central to most of the complaints against "TF". -It goes toward the intense levels of control TF leadership etc, have/ had over its members, but more so over helpless children, and current SGA's who are still victimised having never been able to think for themselves.
....But I know your type......shapeshifter.....which is why your post is full of vague questions, you are obviously hoping to trap people into answering in a way which agrees with you......but you've learned your technique in "TF", and you forget, the rest of us did too.
Tell me, is rape, beatings, isolations, deprivations, public humiliations, and various other types of abuse forms of "personal grievances" and "petty issues"? - If so I hope plenty still come your way, so you can see how central "personal grievances" and "petty issues" are to this entire point.
Don't pretend that this is just one big case, and we should all be "pretending we're god" and seeing the "big picture", for you. Let me let you in on a little secret: The "big picture" is nothing more than a mozaic of thousands of "smaller pictures", and those "smaller pictures" ARE the "personal grievances" and "petty issues" you refer to. It is all the "small pictures" which paint the hideous collage of "Big Picture" which is "The Family".
Now, go answer you're own questions, instead of continuing to spread your confusion, and annoying circular logic. - If you have an opinion, just say it, stop asking pointed questions thinking you can fool anyone.
If you want to know why I'm angry, it's because of people like you using circular logic, which you think makes you sound intelligent, but just shows your lack of having a solid opinion, it's also people like you who tend to lead impressionable minds astray, with ruse-like questions causing confusion at a time when clarity is crucial. - Which is why someone like Nancy is so much more refreshing, she comes out and expresses her points with clarity, even if it is something I disagree with, at least its right there, its clarity.
- And please notice, I'm not at all interested in answering the questions in your post, but merely expressing my complete disregard for the circular logic you employ in your comments and your reasoning.
like I said before.....go answer your own dumb questions.
I'm still waiting for my answer "What does god want to do"?(reply to this comment) |
| | From noname
Monday, March 01, 2004, 20:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
how do you figure that you are entitled to an answer from me to my own question?
you're just trying to be smart ass and turn it around on me.
you're not interested in the question because you feel it weakens your point.
'petty details' refers to the existence of God, which you are keen to argue, as off topic as it is.
you accuse me of circular logic, i am asking questions not introducing any kind of logic. much less circular
as many words as i have exchanged with you, you have only attempted to argue with the origional question. the reason for this thread is to answer these questions. so if you would like to pose your own questions, feel free to start your own damn thread (to which no one is compelled to reply to).
but as i said before, there is a place for personal grievances to be examined, and there is a place for the whole organisation to be judged, based on their contribution towards those grievances. you see, it isn't automatic that because you were wronged in the family that the family as a whole is the bearer of ALL the blame. in alot of cases this is true. but, lets say, someone was killed through some sort of neglect. would you hold the top leadership responsible?
like in my case, i know that some of the individuals in my life actually took Berg's letters out of context as a concerted effort to get rid of me. i can't hold the top leadership responsible for that directly, but they are partially responsible.
there are many layers to the issue, which you must in some way account for. but ofcourse if you want to just drop a nuke on the whole family, you are entitled to your opinion.
but please refrain from arguing 'the petty details'
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Benz
Monday, March 01, 2004, 23:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
Honestly……you are either the thickest person I have ever come across, or you are just intentionally putting words in my mouth and misinterpreting what I’ve said in the extreme.
So, let me make it clear again:
I DON’T CARE WHAT GOD THINKS!!! – I DON’T CARE TO DISCUSS WHETHER HE EXISTS!!!!- It is not material to me. – So, if you review my comments I NEVER argued whether god exists, I said it was not worth discussing, as is your question “what god thinks”.
But now I’ll show you a clear example of your flawed logic, you say:
“'petty details' refers to the existence of God…..”
you say:
“please refrain from arguing 'the petty details' “
yet your question is:
“5) What do you think God wants?”
So to paraphrase, your post requests that we speculate what we “think God wants”, yet “the existence of God” is a “petty detail” which you request we “refrain from arguing”. – Do you see how stupid you sound? – probably not…
I care only that a legal system will work in our favour if we provide accurate and adequate information, and take pains to ensure legal procedures are followed correctly. As far as whether “The Family” as a group should be taken to court, or individuals, I’d say both would be ultimately desirable, but as others have said “we take what we can get”, as far as justice goes. – My hat my respect goes to those who are making such positive efforts to get proper justice.
But why don’t you just go before the courts and ask……..”judge, what do you think god wants?”.
The reason I asked you the same question, is because I couldn’t think of any other question stupid enough to compete with it………cheers………there should be some kind of prize somewhere for you.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From noname
Tuesday, March 02, 2004, 00:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
just go away!
leave me the hell alone, you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA ABOUT WHICH YOU ARE SPEAKING.
YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I AM EVEN SAYING. YOU AREN'T LISTENING TO ME AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i will not tolerate your lunacy for one second longer.
i have tried my very best to explain my points rationally.
now leave me alone.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | from banal_commentator
Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 13:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
6. How do you think Santa Claus likes his hot chocolate?
(reply to this comment)
| from Spat
Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 12:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
1.- Does any relligious group ever do any good?
2) The Family is at a difficult point were most of our parents who have given up their entire life to The Family find it hard to say"My beliefs for the last 25 years were mistaken"even if they feelsome of the facts suggest maybe they were mistaken
3) My relatives have a freedom of choice to live their life as they see fit, it is not my place to dictate what they can and cannot believe as long as they respect the Law of the land
4) a.-Was the Civil Right's movement in the 60's a change or just a front? was it caused by the southern rednecks having a change of heart? Or was it because the law made them change(at least in face value)? Does it really matter what triggered this change? b.-How can I judge religious dogma and doctrine I do no believe? I think the keys are bull, but then again I feel that the Catholic stance on birth control is moronic, I furthermore do not believe that the Pope's word is from God, Does this make the Catholic church or The Family good/bad?
5) Is there a God? If so what does he think? If he feels something is wrong wont he stop it? If he allows it to happen, is it because he wants it to happen?
Needless to say I feel your questions should be answered by the people who choose to live in The Family and if they feel its a good place for them, let them live the way they want to as long as its within the boundaries of the law.
(reply to this comment)
| From noname
Friday, February 27, 2004, 06:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
Mostly very good points. answer to #1 well said.
My personal feeling about God and the family is a very torrid subject for me to even think about. I know many of you have no belief in God at all which is entierly understandable.
The most difficult experience of my life wasn't surviving the family. it was surviving afterwards, with my faith still in tact. it was also the most worthwhile endeavour. i still belive in God and when i ask him the big why question, i get the same response that has been asked to:
why the holocaust?
why hiroshima and nagasaki?
you know the rest.
just because people are fucked up. the family is fucked up and really have done wonders to continue the idea that christianity is the scourge of mankind. its called free choice and its very central to the whole fucking idea. i know that God and the family parted ways ages ago, and i know it can't be saved. but there are the little people on the far flung edges who do their thing and they're innocent.
i still am not at peace about why it continues. but God is the judge. I know thats like deja-vu. but i have been out of the family for 10 years, i have had loads of time to sort it out. in my opinion there is a God. kiss my ass the rest of you.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Ne Oublie
Saturday, February 28, 2004, 04:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
The concept of God as being caring and concerned about humanity is a distinctly Christian one. The ancient religions tended to hold the view of gods which all but took pleasure in the suffering of mankind.
In the Odyssey, for example, the gods used Odysseus' misadventures as both a source of entertainment and to spite their fellow gods.
All that to say, just because someone believes there is a god doesn't mean that they believe in the Christian concept of godhood.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | from exister
Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 12:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
Since you asked in a list format I am forced to address these absurdities one by one.
1. No! Good is relative and in my microcosm the Family as an organization is pure self serving evil.
2. You cannot reform something that is rotten to the core. There never was any good.
3. My parents are still in. I am certain that they will continue their beliefs and lifestyle when the Family is gone.
4. Change? What ever! They are a reactionary organization that only does what is expedient in response to external threats. Left to their own devices they would still be composed of Combo Hell Homes rife with brutality and sexual abuse.
5. God is dead, so I don't imagine he/she/it gives a flying fuck.
(reply to this comment)
| From noname
Friday, February 27, 2004, 06:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ouch, that whole God issue really gets your panties in a knot. thats ok i understand.
and yes i am very pleased that it is in a list format (it just makes it more obvious that you're a bitter bitter bitter bitter bitter man)
1. Good is not relative. any idiot can spot good. if it makes you feel happy, balanced, right and pure inside, it is good. i don't care, no exceptions. there are people in the family who do that. it might be hokey religious crap but if it acomplishes the goal it is good.
2. fair enough
3. ok your parents are in, but are they aware of obvious imbalances in the family. if you read james's letter you will see that it isn't about beliefs or opinions. its about the lies and coverups. it right there in black and white. the family hasn't risen to the occasion to defend itself. but the people in the family think he is just hanging dirty laundry.
4. i don't actually believe that the change is genuine. BUT it is happening, life is better than it has ever been for kids in the family. (far from ideal) the family is becoming less and less of a cult. i don't think you could say that the official version of the family is a cult anymore.
i must add that i do not support the family in any way and i am incredibly greatful - to God in fact that i am free of the abusive dead end lifestyle.
5. i get accused all the time by my relatives that i am bitter. you have really made me feel 100 times better.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From farmer
Tuesday, March 02, 2004, 08:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hick,J., Ontological arguments for the existence of God, in Encyclopedia of Philosophy, ed. P.Edwards, New York (Free Press),1967.
Anderson, A.C. Some emendations of Gödel's ontological proof,
Faith and Philosophy, 7 (1990); 291-303.
Dawson,J.W., Logical Dilemmas. The Life and Work of Kurt Gödel,Wellesley, Mass. (Peters), 1997.
Gödel,K., Ontological proof, in Collected Works, vol.III, ed.
S.Feferman et al., Oxford (U.P.), 1995; 403-404 .(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From farmer
Wednesday, March 03, 2004, 00:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
Tx. for enduring me as such; right, no credit to me for the above list, they are excerpts from a PDF-file I have downloaded some time ago...the Incompleteness theorem was for me a milestone, a turningpoint, which led me to say bye, bye to "our" math as a way to make much sense of our
existence 28 years ago...applied, the theorem told me, as someone having been aware of infinity, at least in a mathematical sense, that
in an infinite (also:Thought) set, you can always have claims & "ideas", which you can neither prove nor disprove
with the rules & axioms you laid down for that system....you are aware of that... (keeping that in mind, arguing, backbiting on boards like these could prove often sooner or later to be vain...)
However Gödel did think for 30 years about a way to prove
the possibility & later the existence, logically, of a
positive,perfect being..someone called it a gödely being...Gödel has apparently God in his notes...
On Oct. the 6th 1961 he wrote his 82 year old mother: Of course we are far away from giving scientific reasons for the theological way of viewing (model of) the world, but I believe, even today it could be possible to realize - without being based on a faith of any religion - that the theological world view can be brought in line with all the known facts.This has been already attempted by the famous philosopher & mathematician Leibniz 250 years ago.
(pls. pardon my poor translation...)
Leibniz called this being "ens perfectissimum"...
My reasons for replying: though we are incomplete, aware of it or not, reasons are sufficient to allow for a being that is "perfect".
Before I forget: very good observation/insight...I used to love libraries...& true, I might not know or understand what's in a book but every now & then I have a clue, where there's something written on the subject...I prefer, if people "argue with a book", rather than me, that's bad for my nerves ; )
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From exister
Tuesday, March 02, 2004, 10:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
At least you were able to come to the correct conclusion, there is no right and wrong. These are merely convenient human constructs that prevent us from devolving into sweet anarchy and clubbing eachother to death. That is why enlightened people tolerate the archaic concepts of right and wrong. It frees us from the need to be constantly defending ourselves from some brute roaming about with a big stick. With this free time we are able to think more free and enlightened thoughts, so overall it's not a bad tradeoff. This does not mean however that we believe in the unassailability of right and wrong. Those of us who know still see them as the quaint, somewhat childish concepts that they are.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Banshee
Friday, February 27, 2004, 07:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sorry, I disagree that "the official version of the family" is not a cult anymore. What defines a cult is not its "weirdness", (which, quite honestly, I don't see getting any less. I mean, homosexual demons? Really?) But what defines a cult is the control its leadership holds over its followers. That has increased if nothing else. I posted an article in "Faith No More" called "Identifying a Cult" and it lists different cult characteristics. TF fits into nearly every last one of them. I think TF is still very much a cult, and in fact, the personification of what a cult is.(reply to this comment) |
| | From noname
Friday, February 27, 2004, 18:56
 (Agree/Disagree?)
ok i think this is a good article regarding cults.
www.spiritwatch.org/cultdef.htm
7 ELEMENTS OF A CULTIC GROUP
1) A centralized form of leadership that rules with unquestioned authority
2) A body of convictions, beliefs, and practices set forth boldly as "the truth"
3) A compelling presentation of the group vision to prospects that is inviting and challenging
4) A series of manipulative socializing sessions to instill psychological dependence on the group
5) A definable process of group dynamics used to unethically control and manipulate members
6) A history of abuses of authority by group leaders freely using deception and fear tactics
7) A history of psychological and spiritual abuses of group members that destroy lives
i think its fair to say that 4,5,6&7 are no longer practiced by the family. Maria welcomes questions, although entirely disingenuous, it technically means that it isn't unquestioned authority.
Do you seriously hold to the notion that "I think TF is... the personification of what a cult is." ?
I wish they would be more stupid so they could die more easily. Sadly i don't think Maria is a complete idiot, she is fighting for survival.
is it not abundantly obvious that Maria is just going through the motions of being a spiritual leader? do you think she really believes her own prophecies? (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Joe H
Friday, February 27, 2004, 20:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hey buddy, it's almost sad to see you make such a pathetic case - you're saying they don't "practice" 6 and 7 anymore, but 6 and 7 say "history of .. abuses." By your own argument, they don't need to be "practicing" anymore, all that's required to fit this definition is a history of abuses, and even you agree that they have that history. (Of course, they may still be "practicing" these very abuses, for all we know)(reply to this comment) |
| | From Banshee
Friday, February 27, 2004, 19:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
Whoa, whoa, whoa…wait a second… “I think its fair to say that 4,5,6&7 are no longer practiced by the family.” ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!
“4) A series of manipulative socializing sessions to instill psychological dependence on the group”
Just what do you call babes training? This is one of the best definitions of babes training I’ve ever read!! If there is one thing TF loves to teach is that there is no other way to go BUT the Family way: no other music, no other Word, no other teaching, no other way of life but the Family. And yes, they ARE still “practicing” babes training.
“5) A definable process of group dynamics used to unethically control and manipulate members”
Hello? Have you ever seen the Charter? The rules and regulations by which each member must live their lives? A rule book that tells every member how to have sex, how much coffee they can drink, how much alcohol they can consume, how many meetings to hold per week, and what type of meetings to have, how much education to give their children, etc?
“6) A history of abuses of authority by group leaders freely using deception and fear tactics”
To have to explain to you how this point defines the Family is so ludicrous; I actually can’t really bring myself to do it. A HISTORY OF ABUSES!!! A HISTORY OF ABUSES!! The Family does nothing BUT use fear tactics: “If you leave TF you will be out of God’s will, bad things will happen, accidents, sickness, etc. Look at all these losers who commit suicide because they left TF, they’d still be alive if they were still in, see they even say so from the grave, blah, blah!!”
“7) A history of psychological and spiritual abuses of group members that destroy lives”
Okay, see, now I just can’t even do the subject justice. Maybe there are some others here (like, oh, say about 1275…) who can help me to explain to you (obviously they will have to use simple terms) just how much psychological and spiritual abuse they suffered while in TF that nearly destroyed their lives. The only reason it hasn’t destroyed our lives is simply because we are young enough to start over again. The same can’t be said for the First Generation.
So YOU think it’s FAIR to say? Well, I think it’s fair to say that you think TF isn’t all that bad a place to be…
(reply to this comment) |
| | From So Right
Monday, March 01, 2004, 11:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
How about the manipulative socialization of routine fellowships? Most certainly camps for the youth (which they still seem to be doing judging from the pictures and stories of SGA/Teen meetings on their youth site) fit perfectly into "A series of manipulative socializing sessions to instill psychological dependence on the group." How about home meetings, "inspirations," even devotions??(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From noname
Saturday, February 28, 2004, 05:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
you have alot of rage in your life, and are unworthy of this kind of discussion, nevertheless:
if you read 4) series of social manipulative situations.
ok babes training isn't a social situation. you read alot so fucking what? what the hell do nuns do? they isolate themselves in their evil cult. babes training doesn't cut it.
5)do you have a clue what unethical even means?
the charter is like a constitution. and its getting more liberal everyday. the alcohol limit was lifted. this proves at least that the whole cult image is regressing.
6)Fear tactics ok i can concede this one itty bitty point. The family reinforces ppls fears about the system. its disinformation. But is it the same as before? It is very different now compared to before. right? All i am proving is that the family is unculting itself.
7)yes the history is there thats obvious. but does it still happen? maybe i am just completely out of the loop and my relatives just lie to my face. (right)
but i am not trying to disprove that the family is fucked up. my point is that Maria is smarter than you are.
you're screaming about cults and extreme abuses. so if you ever manage to stir up negative publicity you'll look like an ass because the family has been secretly transforming into a mainstream gentle looking animal and soon the 'new' family will be the only family that anyone cares about.
so keep screaming it just makes you look like the crazy one.(reply to this comment) |
| | From exister
Monday, March 01, 2004, 12:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
"Unworthy" That's funny.
So, multiple choice question. Which of the following best describes noname?
a) A current Family member.
b) A previous singing team member whose future life will never measure up to his/her glory days of singing in restaurants.
c) An ardent Family groupie who will always regret the day he/she smoked that weed and got him/her excommed.
d) A former member who's entire sex life consists of joining his current member relatives for Loving Jizzus sessions that occasionally devolve into incestuous orgies.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Mydestinyismine
Sunday, February 29, 2004, 19:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
Maria is a fucking psycho! And Maria smart, whats your point? Serial killers are smart, child abusers are smart and terrorists are smart. Out of everything you said in the above comment that's the only thing I can agree with. And you can concede a itty bitty bit only? You gotta be kiddin. You don't find prophecies of demons and persecution if you don't straighten up and purging after purging, etc... not a fear tactic? Fear is fear baby! All you've proven is that blind people like yourself think TF's "unculting" itself is gonna happen. It's been trying to do that for years. It never will succed cause the top wants the control. Everyone I know that didn't grow up in TF thinks it's a cult? Who have you been talkin too? (reply to this comment) |
| | From Banshee
Saturday, February 28, 2004, 08:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
You have no right whatsoever to tell me that I have a lot of rage in my life. You know absolutely nothing about me whatsoever; you have never met me; you do not even know who I am, and yet you have the audacity to tell me that I have a lot of rage in my life. You are making this statement based on my comment to YOU. If I have any “rage,” it was only directed at your defense of TF and your inability to see their tactics and “group dynamics” for what they are.
So Maria is smarter than me, is she? Well, now that you have cleared that up for me, I will just go running to her right now, so that she can lead me in the way that I should go, so she can show me my path in life, being that she is all so enlightened and so smart and all. I’m sure she’ll be asking all those dead friends of hers for some extra counsel, and that just makes me feel so much better….
I would get into this more, but as you oh-so-eloquently stated in your arrogance and condescension, I am so very UNWORTHY of this discussion with you, so excuse me while I grovel on the ground before you and bow out of it.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From cassy
Saturday, February 28, 2004, 06:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
I have to disagree with you on the letting up of the fear tactics. The Vandari vision is the worst yet, blood dripping demons! They continue to say things like, "If YOU don't pray, you'll get persecuted" etc. When they well know it's them that are accountable and it's their sorry asses we want to get. So if anyone should be doing a little fasting and praying, it's Zerby and her consorts. But no, it's all the followers fault. If any problems happen in the Family, it's not "the Word" (their word), but it's them not obeying enough, not fucking Jesus enough, whatever.... this is foremost what infuriates me about WS and Zerby in particular--and it's not getting any better. Those still in have over their heads a tremendous amount of fear and guilt that's been put upon them, and this is what we need to fight to expose.(reply to this comment) |
| | From noname
Sunday, February 29, 2004, 05:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yeah i know its all bad news. i told all my relatives that i was part of the vandari. but they just didn't give a shit. i proved to them that the prophecies are about this website, they didn't care. they really don't take it very seriously. maybe its just the ppl i know. they aren't very 'spiritual'. it's compartmentalized as james said.
they don't even know what they believe about berg. "yes he is a prophet and some things he said were wrong." but they really have no idea how many really, really, fucking weird ass things he said. i think they are like the living dead, they can't wake up because they know something just ain't right. but somehow they only tolerate the insanity, they don't seem to really believe it.
i don't know, i just think the family today is mostly a bunch of loosers who don't realize it's over.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From noname
Monday, March 01, 2004, 04:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
I talked to a friend in the family, today, about alot of the glaringly obvious issues.(like berg) he said he had read james' letter and he did agree with alot of the main points.
he recently contemplated leaving, but the reason he stayed was for 'personal religious reasons'. as in, he knew that he would most likely loose his faith if he didn't have it crammed down his throat.
He doesn't even accept the LJ crap, but he would rather tolerate it than have to go through the daily struggle so many of us have had to endure. eg adjusting to the real world, retaining faith, depending on oneself.
its not a really good reason to stay and it does prove he is weak. but not having something new to hold onto once you leave is a big hurdle for anyone.
i also think that there really needs to be a support group to help ppl who are trying to leave, to grow an identity and retain some sort of belief. it's like heroine, i can understand why people are afraid of the withdrawal symtoms.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from Alf
Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 11:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yes, what *would* Jesus do?
(reply to this comment)
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