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Getting Out : Generations
Puzzling | from thixotropic - Tuesday, October 04, 2005
accessed 2756 times Is it just me or is it confusing? I have been reading a book that has made me think about getting spanked when I was a little kid and something it made me wonder about. I don't think I had the words to articulate it back then. As best I can express it right now, it's a question that goes kind of like this: "OK, here I am feeling trapped and scared. On the other hand, this grown-up here seems to be in charge. Why are they acting like my doing what I am getting spanked for is such a threat? They are acting like I have all this power and they are driven by dire necessity to use force. What is going on? If I had any power, I would have stopped that spanking!"
Apparently I can't express it very well all these years later, either. I guess it just does not seem to make sense to use force against someone who is not even half your size.
Or maybe children do have some kind of special power that only the adults who are spanking them know about. As if! |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from Baxter
Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 13:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
Also any ex-TF girls who don't mind beating a bloke, contact me!
P.S. Preferably oriental! It's an Oedipus complex, you understand! (although thinking about it, there were a few Caucasian women who were kinda beastly as well!)
Whip not furnished!
(reply to this comment)
| from Sir Rantalot
Monday, October 10, 2005 - 15:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, that was a stimulating debate.
All Ex-fam women who miss those wonderfully intense spankings can contact me. I will be happy to spank ya rascals into obedience anytime!
PS
Will travel, with own paddles.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | from AndyH
Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 17:00
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Whether or not spanking is justified is debatable. But TFI was a cult the warped the minds of children into believing in a fanatical religion. Therefore any form of misbehavior was a form of just rebellion, and any spanking/beating/whipping, was blatant abuse.
They didn't do it to make us good kids, they did it to control and manipulate us and it is unforgiveable.
(reply to this comment)
|  From ...........
Tuesday, October 11, 2005, 09:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
I totally agree with you. The reason they did anything to us was only to manipulate and control. When you correct a child, no matter how you do it, it should always be for the benefit of the child, not for your own selfish reasons.
If I take my son’s TV privileges away for an hour, it is not because I am going to benefit from it, hell, I will probably get a headache from the crying, but it is for his benefit, so he learns how to clean up his toys before TV time. Finish with one activity before you go on to the next….has nothing to do with my benefit.
Now if I beat a child because he refuses to call me “auntie”, that is just manipulation, plain and simple. Or what about, not memorizing the verses correctly? In school, do you get beat with a paddle if you don’t get an A on a test? No, you just get a lower grade, and in turn it teaches you that if you want a better one, you have to try harder……no beating or manipulation involved.
It makes me sick all the stupid shit we used to get beatings for, like being the last in line when running around the block. Sick!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From I remember
Tuesday, October 11, 2005, 10:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
I witnessed a 6mth old baby being beaten for at least 10 mins with a flyswater, for soiling her diaper, they said She was fighting the Devil as she was not properly potty trained yet.
They demanded we read early, potty train early everything early so as to show what wonderful parents and childraisers they were.
Even reading, and I was fluent at 2 and memorising was controlled by a spanking or missing food or standing in the corner with the memory book or bible untill you knew so many verses or a chapter was said word for word.
Also they would line up the babies on the potties and if after the time was up they didn't produce a doodoo and wee, they were also beaten.
Control freaks!
when it came time for me to look after babies and toddlers I knew instinctivly that I would never practice such crulty, I was also one to be found crying when one of my sibblings was having a beating(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | from Gothsmack
Friday, October 07, 2005 - 05:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
"The beatings will continue until morale improves!"
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | From Baxter
Thursday, October 13, 2005, 14:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
The statement is attributed to Japanese Imperial navy officer who commanded the Submarine fleet during world war 2. During the mid to later years of the war, The IJN suffered losses similar to those suffered by the Kriegsmarine at the same time. This famously led to Japanese sub captains finding any excuse not to engage the enemy. The beatings referred to are not literal physical beatings. It's still an absurd statement in its literal significance.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from Jedran
Friday, October 07, 2005 - 02:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
Anyone remember the adults saying "it hurts me more than it hurts you?" How about having to say "Thank you for correcting me" after getting hit a couple times with a cricket bat?
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| | | | | | | from anovagrrl
Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 14:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
I don't advocate spanking, but I think it's important to make a distinction between physical discipline and physical punishment. Are you spanking a child if adminster a swat or two on the bottom to get his attention? The energetic three-year-old who doesn't listen while running around like a headless chicken could get hurt if some external control isn't exerted.
Spanking as punishment (which is different than physical discipline as a a way to exert control) is really problematic. The basic message of spanking as punishment is that the child has done something that can be corrected through the application pain and humiliation. The idea that such pain & humiliation should be inflicted in a detached manner is ludicrous to me. Also, administering affection immediately after administering pain & humilition puts some really tangled messages in the developing neuro-cognitive structures of the child's brain. "People who love me hurt and humiliate me. Pain & humiliation are a sign of love."
If spanking as punishment is OK, then it's very easy to rationalize a particular episode of disciplinary violence as necessary and fair, when the truth is you wouldn't have gone that far if you weren't at the end of your rope. Here's where the notion that children have power over adults comes in. All forms of punishment are about power and control. Abused kids I've worked with are very good at provoking adults to violent reactions. In fact, whenever I felt the urge to smack a kid in response to his behavior, I generally took that as an indicator that the kid had a lot of practice at getting and receiving physical punishment. Perverse as it is, a child who can provoke an adult into hitting him has exercised the power to control the adult's behavior.
Nevertheless, what went on in TFI was slightly different. Because anger and anxiety could not be directly expressed openly between Family members, adults were allowed to take out their frustrations on kids in a fairly methodical manner. Lining kids up for spankings served a scapegoating function that controlled community equilibrium. In other words, spanking kids was more acceptible than pounding the guy who's sleeping with your wife or bitch-slapping the leader who just verbally humiliated you in front of the entire community. While most of the kids probably weren't trying to exert power or control over the adults by provoking them, their physical punishment served a social control function for the management of adult anger and anxiety.
If you study this stuff long enough, you may conclude--as I have--that the physical punishment of human beings is complex and better left undone.
(reply to this comment)
| From Baxter
Tuesday, October 11, 2005, 13:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
I remember (I think I may have told this story before) coming to sit down at lunch- typical bunch of excitable little boys. Suddenly one adult would get into his or her head that one or all of us was out of control and would whisk us away to demonstrate their bountiful love by beating us silly. This was inevitably followed by a mass hysteria in which all the other adults would find a reason for spanking each one of us. This usually led to queues of adults in righteous indignation lining up either at the ofuro or one of uused rooms, which of course then led to a sort of competition over who gave the best chastisement. I remember my father sporadically discussing spanking with other fathers as if it was a skill. They used to talk about what instruments could inflict the most pain, and boast about how hard they beat us, as if it was a measure of their fatherhood.They even talked about the physical strain on their arms, as if it were a huge injustice.
Talking about this is good!!Good!!!Good!!!!Good!!!!! (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | from Gothsmack
Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 13:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
The rhetoric as I remember it, was the bizzare concept of administering pain at the time of undesireable behavior. This supposedly was to make us associate pain and thus, fear, with whatever we were doing that was "wrong". Its also used in animal training, aka electric shock collars for dogs. The main drawback being that after awhile the subject becomes numb to the pain and subsequently will start acting in a more aggressive manner. In a way thats what happened to us. As far as I'm concerned I've become pretty "numb" to most everything including emotional and physical pain. They tried so hard to toughen us up and make us into Gods little endtime army. Well, we got tough alright, but as we grright now we don't really give a fuck about God. So we're a tough little army who they can't control, so they bestow us the title of "Vandari". Sweet! They gave us the training (however brutal it was), and now they've given us an indentity. I say we go kick some butt.
Cheers.
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| from Spring
Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 09:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
I too have bad memories of being spanked growing up. Most vivid are the ones that I received for no good reason, for things that I hadn't done or for things that my siblings or friends had done. I bristle at the memory of the unfairness. In TF I think a lot of times we got spanked because some uncle or auntie were on a power trip and that was how they got the kids into submission and obviously in that situation you would feel as if you were being treated as a threat. We just didnt know how to deal with it at the time.
Having said that - and maybe I am going to get myself in trouble by saying this - I still think that there is a place for spankings. It's not about the child having power or being a threat, but about trying to get through. Children react differently to different kinds of discipline, and if a spanking is what it takes as long as its not done in anger or to hurt the child and for a valid reason then I support that. I didnt used to feel that way but since I have children of my own I have changed my tune a little.
(reply to this comment)
| From
Thursday, October 06, 2005, 21:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
Isn't the whole point of a spanking that is hurts? What does a spanking accomplish besides inflict pain - and of course the shame and other painful emotions that accompany it? Extra humiliation, if bare bottom or in fromt of others? I am talking about spankings, not necessarily the swat on the bottom for a rowdy three-year old, although I would have to think about even doing that if I had kids.
Anger - I don't remember ever getting a spanking that was not done in anger. The anger might have been cold, but the anger was there.
I see plainly the caring parental intentions in your guidelines: "if a spanking is what it takes as long as it's not done in anger or to hurt the child and for a valid reason then I support that." But the nature of spankings makes me skeptical that a spanking could meet those standards, much less on a regular basis.
By valid reason I imagine you mean that it's done because the kid did something that truly was dangerous or naughty. But I am struggling to understand the validity of spankings per se.
I do understand that plenty of parents have been spanking for a long time and I admit I do not have kids. But it just seems irrational. Maybe it reminds me too much of the severe opression in my punitive childhood. It seems to go hand in glove conceptually with the fundy attitude that children are "bad" by default.
There is a strange contradiction in imputing so much intentional badness to a creature that you then punish physically as though their rational function was not the clearest channel.
I think there is some projection going on by adults in that scenario, of adults' greater capacity to do choose to do wrong with understanding. I recall a lot of selfish adult frustration with kids who were not good little samples of cult values. Plus a good dose of forgetting that a kid does not have the same ability to get through a painful moment by knowing that things pass.
A kid does not have the knowledge that they will one day be able to control their milieu and without life knowledge, a tough childhood has a way of feeling like life without parole.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From
Monday, October 10, 2005, 12:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
I've looked after a number of children and it is hard to explain to a child that you are slappin/hitting them because they hit /slaped a child.
I find that children who's parents use this method develope in there children violence in school to deal with issues and others and in latter life. (reply to this comment) |
| | from Still sore
Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 18:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
It's not the memory of the pain that bothers me, it's always the memory of the just-before-part, when you're waiting in line listening to your friends screaming and trying to detach from reality as much as possible before it's your turn.
It's very difficult for me to be around people who advocate or allow this, and not start feeling violent thoughts towards them.
If an adult can express disapproval for a child by hitting them, then why can't an adult express disapproval of another adult by doing the same?
I believe that corporal punishment needs to be banned. What sense does it make to outlaw cruelty to people convicted of murder, but to allow it for the most trivial of childhood mistakes?
(reply to this comment)
| From vie
Thursday, October 06, 2005, 11:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
I too was spanked, or beaten, whatever you want to call it. I was not with the Family, but still was another cult group. They encouraged spankings, and that made my mother's husband act horribly towards me and my siblings. My brother was "spanked" the worst out of all of us. I have let go of my anger toward that man, but it was very difficult. In spite of my upbringing, I do believe that spankings do work. I think that there are rules people do not follow, and that is why children are getting hurt. The biggest one of all is Never spank when your angry. Always tell them why they are getting a spanking, and always give them hugs and kisses and tell them that you love them, just not their actions. There also comes a time when children are too old to get spanked; usually, its when they become upset or angry at you. Children should never be spanked by someone other than the parent. I also believe that some parents should not spank. Especially if they have anger issues. I dont believe a parent should beat there child with belts or wooden paddle. Out of curiousity, why were you all left at these horrible camps by your parents? And did they know to what extent you were beaten?(reply to this comment) |
| | From they knew!
Monday, October 10, 2005, 11:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
They used the verse "spare the rod, spoil the child" to alieviate themselves of guilt.
We weren't suposed to cry either.
In some places they devised extra harsh beating paddles, they drilled holes in it so as to spare the adult the pain of giving a beating and to make it fly through the air faster.
Mostly for me it was the belt, the flyswater and the hand and not just on the bottom.
I also hated when they shook-the devil out of-a young baby or child and knuckles on the head.
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| | | | | From vie
Monday, October 10, 2005, 14:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
My step dad had a wooden paddle that he drilled holes in and while we were getting a beating, if we picked up our head off the pillow, he would continue to beat us. I remember moving my hand and he hit it with that wooden paddle. He would line my brother and sister and I up for our "Spanking" and it was complete torture listening to them scream. I remember crying for them and he would ask me why I was crying before it was even my turn. I remember feeling completely ill and thinking I was going to get sick right before. I cant go any farther, I am getting sick and upset thinking about this. He was a very disturbing person. He didnt know how to keep his hands from roaming me or his eyes either. (reply to this comment) |
| | From thixotropic
Monday, October 10, 2005, 13:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yeah I remember being told that they would stop spanking when I stopped crying. The saying Gothsmack posted above, "beatings will continue until morale improves," is supposed to be an obvious absurdity, but that is what my Shepherds in the Family thought. And not just about beatings, but about all the various forms of controlling us. I remember being told that I needed to be happier, didn't have enough "joy of the Lord" and so on. To which my brain would respond "well it would help if I had something to be happy about."(reply to this comment) |
| | From Still sore
Thursday, October 06, 2005, 22:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
They knew in terms of how hard we were beaten (That is a better word for what happened then "spank", which hardly covers getting thrashed with a wire whip.)
What they didn't, and still don't realize is just how many beatings we got. When FGA's remember our childhood, they remember it from their point of view. They remember maybe loosing their temper once or twice, and sure there was that one time they went a little too far.
But if you multiply that by 10 or 20 then you start to understand just what we went through.
They told us to treat all FGA's as if they had the same authority as our parents. This is why I at least, tend to lump them together. I was raised that way.(reply to this comment) |
| | From vie
Friday, October 07, 2005, 15:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thanks for answering my question. I am not a huge advocate of spanking. I really should make that clear. I really like to redirect children, let them have timeouts and taking privileges away, are more my speed, but I have spanked my 2 year old boy who ran out into the street, and I would rather he remember the whacks on the bottom than me remembering him in a casket. I was beaten so bad one time that I couldnt sit down for 2 weeks without easing my butt down gently, and even then, it hurt. It was sometimes even more than once a week with me for stupid things like not saying yes sir or yes maam. God, it pisses me off too think that you can hear children screaming in pain, and they are still whaling on you like they get off on it or something. It really makes my blood boil to remember all that crap. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From vie
Monday, October 10, 2005, 10:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, I dont think that people who beat children for fun, or in the name of God, should perpetuate mankind. What those people did to you was morally and ethically wrong. They took away any and all good childhood memories that you had. They didnt spank you all, they broke your spirit. Yet, you emerged into beautiful people. Not saying that you forget the memories, because you will always remember. That is the hard part. I really hope the memories of what they did will lesson as time goes on. You may, or may not, always forgive, but you will never forget. I dont think your suppose too. I think we are too learn and protect our children, or future children from expieriences like that.
"Friends" who judge you for what happened to you, are not your friends.
God will Judge those people who beat and abused you all so severly.
God bless you for going through what no one should ever have to go through. (reply to this comment) |
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