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from KMLM Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 13:56 (Agree/Disagree?) You raise an interesting question for me with this post- What the @#$%^&* is wrong with these people-FGAs???? Can we start with the boundaries they don't have? Whether they knowingly relinquished their personal boundaries after they joined a group that didn't allow you to have them or whether they weren’t raised with healthy boundaries-by that I mean they were also in abusive or neglectful situations themselves as children and were stripped of the right or opportunity to protect themselves and then passed those weak boundaries off to their children, either way they don't have any boundaries. We can see this manifest itself in their delusion of authority of our lives. I see it in the arrogance the culties have to explain how we are completely mad to be angry about our past, and how we are missing out not being in the family even after what we have survived in The Family; or the arrogance of the ones who have left and taken our banner of justice up to act as if we, without them (the FGA), would be lost. How dare FGAs for one minute talk to us about how we are too weak and ignorant to expose the TF for who they are, how dare you look at us with anything but thankfulness that we survived the atrocity you perpetrated by believing in and supporting that whether they-the FGA, wants to say unknowingly or not, it doesn’t change the impact their choices had on their children. I read your account of the dynamics of the ex-cultie and their psychological process as they leave, and it is familiar to me. I think we recognize this attitude because it is the evolution of a follower. They were conned in the biggest way-they joined a sex cult, and told all their friends and whole family it wasn’t and fell right into the Urban-legend, stereotypical cultist, paradigm. The last thing they want to admit is they joined a sex cult and were a little cultie. I can’t even try to imagine what I would think of a friend, family member, or god forbid myself, if they or I had made a decision to join a sex cult. I mean come on lets think about this; if one of your friends came up to you and said, “dude I think I found the answer to all my questions-I am going to sell everything I have, I am going to quit my job, sell my children…urh I mean take my children, and run off to this house with a bunch of people who love Jesus,” what would you tell them? Honestly? What sane person is going to say, “Wow! Dude! Right ON MAN!!-can you pass the joint-I mean, groovy? It just happens to be at the point in time when we see generational shifts from teenagers seeking the approval of their parents, to becoming individuals and separating who they are in CONTRAST to their parents, that they made this choice to join, and the same time in our lives that we have made the choice to forsake them as they did their parents. In other words, this is a pivotal point in ones life where they begin to decide what is reality for themselves. Sadly I believe many of them-FGAs have stunted their psychological growth and developmentally are delayed in their ability to see reality and how their denial of it has impacted their children. In my opinion it is embarrassing because it is like being around and awkward teen, they are so immature. (reply to this comment)

From vixen Saturday, February 25, 2006, 14:00 (Agree/Disagree?) First of all, we're all adults here - If you want to swear, please just type out the actual words. Secondly, your comments would be easier to read if you'd use paragraphs. Thanks.(reply to this comment)

From KMLM Saturday, February 25, 2006, 14:04 (Agree/Disagree?) First of all-I was using dramatic license and secondly, thanks for the help with grammer, I was never very good at it, I will make use of the paragraph format.(reply to this comment)

From vixen Saturday, February 25, 2006, 14:38 (Agree/Disagree?) No worries, dear ;-) It was only meant as light-hearted ribbing, no offense intended. (reply to this comment)

From KMLM Saturday, February 25, 2006, 18:41 (Agree/Disagree?) And none taken, my dear. I grew up in the family and developed thicker skin than to be offended by constructive criticism:) (reply to this comment)

from frmrjoyish Friday, May 06, 2005 - 05:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Well put! I couldn't agree more. It irritates me to no end how these former culties think that we need them to help us with our healing process. They forget that they are talking to adults here who, for the most part, are smarter, more accomplished, and better educated than they are. A little respect, please! The last thing we need is for some 50+ yr old opportunist to use our stories as their last minute 401K. They should match what they've had their whole lives to accomplish against what we've done in the relatively short time since we left their cult and then think about who has the right to be condescending and patronizing. With the exception of anovagrrl, I can't think of one former cult participator whose opinion I give a crap about. Thanks, but no thanks! Keep your patronising, parenting, and above all your preaching to yourselves. (reply to this comment)

from I'm listening Friday, May 06, 2005 - 03:51 (Agree/Disagree?) The gross generalization is stunning. I also hate religious drivel and agree that people should resist the urge to post it. I resent the F-shit-for-a-brain-GA concept. Agreed, there are many idiotically brainless cultists and ex-cultists roaming about, but I would prefer that sweeping generalizations not be made. What happened to individuality? Case in point: Joe FGA is raised in an isolated location, a younger member of a large family. His 4 older brothers come back to his parents' house with a cool, newfound concept - joing the COG, help people, change the world! Wow - sounds good, especially since those older brothers are highly respected and influential towards this poor sucker of a 12 year old. Yes, this dear boy is one of those ex-FGA's who began his self-effacing time under the influence of the COG at a very tender age. He spent his years in the cult doing his best to make life fun for kids and educate them as well as he could until finding it was a pretty fruitless battle. No, he never posts on this site, nor would he care to insult your inteligence by giving you advice. Why include him in such outrageous FGA's-are-all-idiots type posts? For Christ's sake, he was 12 years old! We are all individuals struggling through this place we call life, and I would like to be respected as that. I was hoodwinked into joining at age 16 - idealism, naivity, gullibility, and without a doubt, stupidity. Yes, I agree no one should impose their religiousity upon others on this site. No, I don't agree all FGA's are fucked up and mindless. (reply to this comment)

From conan Friday, May 06, 2005, 15:06 (Agree/Disagree?) First of all, I never generalized all FGAs into a single individual group. I actually was targeting vocal FGAs, which you have now so amiambly joined! This you would have known had you bothered to read the article instead of having an "oh my god they're picking on us FGAs again!" complex. If you're here to read and join in the discussion without going into your history and how you know so much more than us, power to you. Otherwise, yes! We want you 'mindless FGAs' to fuck off.(reply to this comment)

From xolox Friday, May 06, 2005, 08:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Your indignation is missplaced! It's not our fault that you paid so little attention in highschool and to your parents that you were so easily lured away. Here try this generalization on for size: All SGA's were fucked over by the cult with no other viable option on the table. At least you could have run back to mommy and daddy crying "I made a boo-boo", and they would have been happy to whip out a "bandaid" and fix you right up. No such luck for us, you see, our parents (and you) made a little cult, and from what I hear it was fun while the fun lasted. Once more let me be painfully redundant. We had no prior world experience, you did. I think you'll have better luck wresting sympathy out of your own generation of loosers. As for the demands for less generalizations, solly cholly, I'm a systemite now, (remember that generalization?) so you can't make me. (reply to this comment)

From Nagoya Friday, May 06, 2005, 05:06 (Agree/Disagree?) But "Joe" did leave at one time, and could have stayed out if he wanted to.He didnt have to spend all those year teaching kids.(Not to mention beating them)(reply to this comment)

From Eric Cartman Sunday, May 08, 2005, 05:37 (Agree/Disagree?) Hmm, who is this? Not too many exers in Nagoya Japan.(reply to this comment)

From vixen Friday, May 06, 2005, 04:41 (Agree/Disagree?) 'No, he never posts on this site' Apparently, he does. I understand what you're saying, but come on, if the shoe doesn't fit, just don't wear it. And whatever you do, don't come here all indignant and try to lecture us. You've got no right to demand respect from us. 'No, I don't agree all FGA's are fucked up and mindless.' If you're talking about ex-FGAs, okay, maybe not, but they were fucked up and mindless enough at one point to join a cult and stay in it for an extended period of time. (reply to this comment)

from Nancy Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 15:28 (Agree/Disagree?) I second that, all of it. What personally sticks in my crawl is when these ex-cult members (I hate using cult terms like FGA/SGA, but there doesn't seem to be another readily recognized term) start telling me and others what we should and should not be doing, saying or living. But for them, there would have been no cult. You can't have a cult of two, Berg and Zerby. These middle-aged ex-cult members were the cult. I see their condescending attitudes here more and more frequently, too. They call us grown adults with children of our own, "kids" and "girls". I mean really, this ain't your cult anymore. Junior's all grows up and can read you like a book. They act so sanctimonious, especially those with no story of their own except some washed up ex-cultie rap who purport to be the defenders of our huddled masses and crusade to bring us "justice". Come on! I'm not huddled, so please take your high horse, out of touch, cookie cutter cultie crusader hands off me! And kindly shut the hell up with your preaching and diatribe. Please find some one else to proselytize. Don't tell me what you're going to do if I don't cooperate with you. Don't tell me anything. Please just step back into cultie obscurity where you came from, you and your little dog, too. Don't go away mad in a self-created storm of controversy because you miss it from your devotions-attending, three sheet toilet paper using, guitar playing cult days. Just go the hell away! Now, I luv ya. I especially luv ya when I don't hear from you. There is no beef between you and me. There is no you and me. I have no plan against you. I just don't want you. I choose life. What a wonderful choice! And yeah, I could be bitter. But guess what? That's my fucking prerogative and stopped being yours the days I ditched your cult and stopped calling you "uncle". Disclaimer: Any and all above references are strictly fictional and refer to no real persons or events. All warranties are null and void. Boilerplate, boilerplate. (reply to this comment)

From xolox Friday, May 06, 2005, 09:17 (Agree/Disagree?) I also hate the SGA/FGA terms. It's like it's own sub-cult, but what are you going to do? There has to be some way of comunicating the notion of the difference in generations (such a laaaarge difference) without a long ass sentence every time. And why is it so hard for these (here we go again) FGA's to realize there would have never been an abusive cult without them and their trukloads of gullibility? It would have been one pervert, long imprisoned, and nada. Zip. Must be that fabled denial thing.(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Friday, May 06, 2005, 10:28 (Agree/Disagree?) I think I have an answer to the cult term dilemna of FGA/SGA. The term for an ex-FGA is ex-cult member. The term for an FGA is a cult member. I prefer cultie for short because regardless of whether they left or not, they were still mindless drones who joined a cult and contributed to the evil it was and became. Now, the term for SGA is different. We were never cult members. The term member implies that we joined an organization and did so voluntarily. Not the case. We never joined anything. We never voluntarily lived in a cult. Many of us high tailed it out of there as soon as we were of age and/or found some place to go. We were never there voluntarily. We were, therefore, never members. So, we are certainly NOT ex-members. We need to make that very clear. Because the usual "apostate" and "bitter ex-members" smear the cult likes to use, doesn't apply to us. We were not members. We were children and in a cult during our minority due to no choice of our own. We are certainly not now ex-cult members. I never joined a cult, as an adult, and certainly not as a child. I escaped a cult when I was 17, but that does not mean I was a member. I was born into a cult and then again taken into a cult as a child against my will. I didn't want to go and voiced that. In return, I was beaten, more than once, and prayed over and demons were said to have been cast out of me all at the age of 12. So, that is the distinction. FGAs are cult members and ex cult members. We are neither. We are the grown children of cult members or ex-cult members. When we lived in a cult were still weren't members. We were the children of cult members. We had no say of our own. We were not allowed any rights. In fact, we were denied the Contitutional rights of children, including the right to an education, the right to medical care, the right to be free of physical, psychological and sexual abuse, the right to not be exploited for financial gain, the right to the protection of child labor laws and the right to the protection of the law against neglect, coercion and exploitation. So, we certainly did not join anything, much less the cult which exploited us and denied us our Contitutional rights, of our own volition. We were never cult members, so we certainly cannot be ex-cult members. Instead, we are the children of cult members. We need to make that distinction clear to the public, the media, our families and friends and to ourselves in our own minds. In accepting the terminology of a cult and allowing their slanderous statements against us of "bitter ex-members", we allow the cult to set the terms of dialogue. We cannot allow that. They manipulated us our whole lives. They exploited us as children. We cannot allow that to continue now that we are adults. I personally reject the cult and every cultic terms, doctrine and practice it has ever devised and harmed us with. I reject their cultic language. I reject their propaganda. I reject their lies and defamation and revictimization of us, the children of the cult's members. I reject them completely. I won't allow them to define me as an adult. I was never one of them. I will never be referred to as an ex-cult members. I find the implication that I ever voluntarily was a member of that destructive and criminal organization offensive professionally and personally. I also find it defamatory. Don't call me an ex-SGA and don't call me an ex-cult member. I am the child of a cult member. I was never one myself. I was never a cult member, so, therefore, I cannot now be an ex-cult member. I might be a lot of things, but I certainly am not a moronic cult member with no mind or will of my own. So, that's my take on it. How do we use the terminology in dialogue? When we are referring to someone under the cult's terminology who is an FGA, then that's a cult member. Someone who is what the cult would call an ex-FGA is simply and ex-cult member. And we are the grown children of cult members or ex-cult members, depending on if your parents are still in the cult or out. Realizing who we are and rejecting the definitions the cult has thrust on us also helps us explain to ourselves and the world that the lies the cult tells about us are just that, lies. We are the victims, the children of a cult. We are not and were never members of a cult. The same goes for the victims of the Catholic Church scandal. You wouldn't call them church members. They are the victims. The priests are the Catholic Church. These victims are adults, but everyone knows they were but children when they were molested. Calling them members of the church, rather than the child victims they were, implies that someone they are responsible for what happened to them. They were not. They were children. They were not members of the church put in a position of their own choosing to be exploited. No, the whole thing is absurd when you take the same analogy and apply it to the child victims of other religions or cults. Let's not let this cult do it to us. (reply to this comment)

From conan Friday, May 06, 2005, 15:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Wow!! Fuck the St John bullshit!! That was a revelation!! Nancy, I don't think I've told you before (outside of the chat room that is) that you rock!! YOU ROCK!! Is that enough exclamation points for one paragraph?? (reply to this comment)

From Friday, May 06, 2005, 09:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Alot of the blame lies with Bergs first wife, Mother Eve and her collaberation with the new law of love, sharing and incest. (aparently Eve took her chance at behaving just like Berg, by doing the young men) Not forgetting, Deborah, Aaron, HO and faithy. After that Karen Zerby, due to the fact that she saw how he treated everyone and again, like mother Eve, aided and supported his abuse of her own children, Davidito and Techi. It's like all those closest to him didn't want to admit his abusive nature and prefered to cowtow to his interpretation of events and ideas and instead of breaking the cycle, they became little versions of him. (reply to this comment)

From afflick Thursday, May 05, 2005, 16:55 (Agree/Disagree?) I second her second. Do you know how frustrating it is to be reminded again and again of the ignorance of your parents? Poor ex cult members, poor deluded joined-when-you-were-twenty-two lost souls. Guess what? We are NOT in the same situation. Whenever I try to breach the topic of the "nudie cutie" comic that I was read before bed as a preschooler, or my adolescent girlhood of reading "Heaven's Girl's" sexploiits with her, I get the whole "I was abused, too." How nice that once I reach the age of 30 that my mother wants to bond with me! Her shepards stole the money for my birth and went shopping, so she had to ask her daddy for more! Poor thing. My mother grew up in a beautiful part of Connecticut, was Ivy educated, and only joined a cult after doing numerous hard drugs. I meanwhile, was born. That's it. We are not twins, mother. Thank you to all the ex culters who have left and stopped giving pervy Zerby any money. Congrats. That doesn't make you capable of giving me any advice. This year, I head to a pretty prominent Ivy league school of my own, on my own. I will not, can not, give any of the credit to my loving mother, or any of the "aunties" and "uncles" who corrected me for showing individuality or creativity in my teen and early adult years. Through hard work and heartbreak, I have found a truth of my own. It is an outlook of stark realism that I fought for, am proud of. You, ex culters, cannot share one bit of advice with me that I have not thought of myself, researched, diligently realized. Or else hjave rejected as complete crap. And so, I will end this post with the only logic that I think will reach you: God will be so happy if you stop posting your labors of love here. God wants you to get off the Internet and clean your kitchen, instead. Permanently. Clealiness is Godliness. (reply to this comment)

From minime Wednesday, May 11, 2005, 07:00 (Agree/Disagree?) One thing that really pisses me off is when the culties try to take credit for the success of the children who have left. I've heard things like "thank the lord for home schooling" when referring to someone who is doing well in college or who has graduated, as if the culties had anything to do with that. When someone who has left is not doing well, it's "because they left the family and are out of the lord's will". My mother who is still a hardcore cultie honestly believes that the "education" I received in the cult is the reason I got into a good school with a scholarship, never mind the three years I busted my ass to get in.(reply to this comment)

From Gothsmack Friday, May 06, 2005, 05:49 (Agree/Disagree?) "My mother grew up in a beautiful part of Connecticut, was Ivy educated, and only joined a cult after doing numerous hard drugs." -How ironic, it was only after doing numerous hard drugs that I saw the light and left a cult. Drugs are a very good thing. :) No wonder the family banned them. (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Thursday, May 05, 2005, 18:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Lovely, beautifully put. Here, here! I second her second of my second.(reply to this comment)

From xolox Friday, May 06, 2005, 09:09 (Agree/Disagree?) I want to be the first to third all those seconds!(reply to this comment)

from GoldenMic Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 14:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Conan, as you know, I am not even a current or former member of TF, but a second-generation member of a much smaller cult. Then, to make matters worse, as the second child fully raised in my 45 year-old cult, I am 47 and have the poor taste to be an ancient version of an SGA. Still, I have quickly come to appreciate your comments and thinking, and I think you have made a good point here. Frankly, I have consistently fired off letters to former and current members and even visited the cult of my youth to present and re-present a three-point plan; 1) For those who request it, be willing to listen, without defensiveness, to the narrative of the damage and pain you participated in, 2) make amends through specific and tangible acts of support and reparation, and 3) provide specific and verifiable evidence of policies and procedures to ensure that such oppression has stopped and is being guarded against. Meanwhile, the "jesus loves you and that makes it better" crowd do not make me quite as angry as you, but I believe this stance is all-too-often a "clear-the-slate" move designed to appease one's guilt. While I admit that I have, after 20 years free from my cult, finally managed to put together a spiritual life, I feel like it is despite my past, quite brittle, and definitely not up to being assaulted by platitudes and sweeping generalizations and assurances. Your open letter is right on the money! (reply to this comment)

from xolox Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 13:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Fuckin' A! (reply to this comment)

From Speedx3dave Sunday, May 08, 2005, 09:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Fuck a "B" it's got more holes!(reply to this comment)

From roughneck Sunday, May 08, 2005, 10:42 (Agree/Disagree?) True, true. Yet your insightful comment omits mention of the fact that fucking A (well, A-holes anyway) has been dealt with at length on this site already. http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=2&Cat=6&ID=1638 :D(reply to this comment)

From conan Thursday, May 05, 2005, 18:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Which of course always kicks Spelling B's ass!! hehe(reply to this comment)

from Big Sister Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 11:32 (Agree/Disagree?) I am neither a FGA nor an SGA; I never joined a cult or wanted anything to do with any of this. But because I have so many nieces and nephews whose lives have been impacted by TF, I have become a strong supporter of bringing the child abusers in TF to justice. That's why I'm here. I believe a true apology includes a concerted effort to repair damage you have done. I have two suggestions for reparations. Beyond that, I agree that the FGAs need to get out of the way and take care of their own damaged lives; that will be hard enough! 1. Money for education. Work a second job and send your SGA child a check each month to go for education. After your child has completed a good education you, the FGA, should go back to school and get more education as well. But your child now comes first. 2. Instead of writing goopy apologies to the SGAs, I think that what some FGA (FGA, ex-FGA, SGA current members, whatever) needs to do is deliver the goods: information leading to the location or locations of Karen Zerby and the financial information that would lead to real estate holdings, bank accounts and other investments. It would take just a few person with the right infomation. People who has had enough of this criminal cult and wants to do the right thing. People who don't need to be a hero but just want to get the job done. Now, that would be an apology! (reply to this comment)

From Holmes Friday, May 06, 2005, 07:53 (Agree/Disagree?) To find Zerby, why not check with Lonnie Davis and Claire Borowick at their home in Baltimore. Zerby and Kelly visit them and visa versa. (reply to this comment)

From Friday, May 06, 2005, 14:24 (Agree/Disagree?) While Lonnie and Claire may visit Zerby and Kelly, I'm pretty sure the visa versa doesn't happen. It certainly didn't occur during the years that I lived with them. Of course now that fewer people know their current address, this may be more of a possibility.(reply to this comment)

From out of curiousity Friday, May 06, 2005, 15:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Fewer people know Z/K's address or B/L's? And ou lived with which?(reply to this comment)

from roughneck Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 10:57 (Agree/Disagree?) Good article, conan. You've hit the nail on the head, I give this article a 5/5. Personally I am pretty tolerant of FGAs posting here, (though I do detest their propensity to preach at us poor lost Vandari souls), but you've made a damn good case. Well done! I'm sad to say, a lot of FGAs really are the poor-me-I've- got-shit-for-brains type and, as you suggested, not really worthy of too much sympathy. It does seem to me, however, that the FGAs who have the worst time of anyone transitioning to outside-the-cult life are the ones who still "believe" and hang on to their pet cult beliefs. Witness the pitiful "FM" half-members dressed as clowns that one can often find peddling animal balloons and Somebody Loves You tracts outside the local Wal-Mart. In some ways these people are even more wretched than fulltime cult members because they've personally relegated themselves of their own free will to being second-class "heavenly citizens". Oh the joy. At least fulltime culties have the warm blanket of denial and the comforting cloak of amnesia to wrap themselves in when they look back on their wasted lives & miserable existence. --At least they can tell themselves that they were "God's Elite" all these years, if fuck-all else. (and believe me, there _is_ fuck-all else) These half-members and hangers-on don't even have that going for them. They are convinced that The Family is where it's at, but they "can't give 110%". Personally, I think these washed-up geezers believe they stand a chance of regaining some of the lost stars in their crown by "delivering their souls" to us. As Eeyore (and more recently James Penn) said: it's Paaaaaathetic. -But I seriously digress. On the flipside, some of the brightest opinions & most insightful rants on this site have been aired in response to preachy idiots pushing an (often religious) agenda. I guess what I'm saying is that we can't have good drama (or in this case, interesting website content) without conflict. I don't know about you, but I'm _always_ up for a bash-the-preachy-FGA / creationist / Fundie beat-down. :) One of my favourite quotations: "A lot of people mistake a short memory for a clear conscience." (reply to this comment)

From ErikMagnusLehnsher Thursday, May 05, 2005, 22:15 (Agree/Disagree?) So true about the half-members (TS/FM/Etc.) When a predatory group that indiscriminately consumes victims' time and money tells someone that they are either too stupid, trashy, poor, bad "sample-ish", perverted or flat-out undesirable to attain or retain membership it's pretty pathetic. I don't think I can imagine a more pitiful existence. It's like filling out an application to work at McDonald's and being told you're not "McDonald's material" and spending the rest of your life unsuccessfully trying to qualify for what you think is the best job on the planet.(reply to this comment)

From *Good* News? Friday, May 06, 2005, 08:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Xfamily.org posted some GNs. One of them (Maria #580) emphasizes a supposed "Harvest of Returning Former Members" and "Expanding the Family" and has these quotes that brought to mind your coment. " 44. The whole vision of the outside member church is to have more little Davids‚ Marias and Peters ...all members of the Family at every level should believe and accept the doctrine, the Words that I have given through David and Maria. That is what being in the Family is all about. But various “circles” are allowed, based on how much that Word is lived and practiced on a day-to-day basis. This is especially true of beliefs or goals that affect your daily living or lifestyle, such as: forsaking all to live together, being full-time missionaries, home schooling your children, going into all the world, living by faith, etc. These things are the practical application of your beliefs. 46. But not all Family members are able to live these to the full , either due to former commitments, obligations that they're not able to get free from, the laws of the land, or other conditions and circum­stances. But even without being able to live and practice all aspects of the Word, there should still be a belief in it, an acceptance of it, and an acknowl­edg­ment that that is the ideal."(reply to this comment)

From more Friday, May 06, 2005, 08:29 (Agree/Disagree?) These quotes suggest the questionable legality of certain TF practices, put to the lie The Family's assertions during persecution that "oh, those are just some books we happen to have lying around but we don't follow them" when in fact, how much you practice them correlates with your level of membership. I also think it's interesting to see at the end of the text what they consider persecution ("attacks from detractors, apostates, and worldly authorities and the media"). "46. But not all Family members are able to live these to the full , either due to former commitments, obligations that they're not able to get free from, the laws of the land, or other conditions and circum­stances. But even without being able to live and practice all aspects of the Word, there should still be a belief in it, an acceptance of it, and an acknowl­edg­ment that that is the ideal...47. The standard is this: All Family members should accept and believe the Word that is unique to the Family, otherwise they're not ­really Family members. If they don't accept and believe the Words that I have given you which are recorded in the Letters, then they could simply be members of any church. So belief in the Letters is the single defining qualification of Family membership at any level. 48. On the other hand, however, there is leniency given to the practical application of the Word. There are many who for a multitude of reasons cannot live the Word to the full, hence the need for various “levels” or concentric circles of membership. But the circles should not denote a weakening of faith in the doctrine and belief in the Word. The circles denote a difference in the lifestyle or level of discipleship, regarding such things as: living by faith, living communally, being full-time witnessers and missionaries, home schooling your children, going to foreign fields to preach the Gospel, putting God first and not allowing friends, relatives or others to pull you off the wall, etc. These things are the application of the Word‚ the practical manifestation of your beliefs. 49. Granted, those who live a lifestyle of greater obedience and sacrifice usually have greater faith and commitment, but there are also legitimate reasons why some members do not; but those reasons should not be that they don't believe in the doctrine. All levels of membership should realize that an acceptance of the doctrine is the prime requisite. Warning of Coming Persecution 130. (Mama:) I'm sure this warning of attacks from detractors, apostates, and worldly authorities and the media is not good news. Peter and I weren't sure if we should publish this, as we didn't want to alarm you... 153. The Lord said this coming trouble with detractors, apostates, authorities and the ­media will not be worldwide, that He will spare the obedient. If nothing else, that should motivate you to get right with Him!" (reply to this comment)

From conan Thursday, May 05, 2005, 18:24 (Agree/Disagree?) LOL!! I do like your idea of bash-the-preachy-FGA, but of course when all they say is the same old drivel the one before said, the bashing gets boring! Oh, and I agree with your opinion on these 'second-class citizens' or whatever it was you called them. Thank (insert preferred deity here) that I no longer aspire to be a citizen of their 'nation'!! (reply to this comment)

from Eric Cartman Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 08:51 (Agree/Disagree?) I like the message u put down man, but can we please have our First Generation Joe H back please? (reply to this comment)

From conan Thursday, May 05, 2005, 18:27 (Agree/Disagree?) ummm, thanks. While I live in the same city as Joe, it's not like I have him and as such am in no position to return him. Sorry fatass...but your post was hella cool!(reply to this comment)

From xolox Thursday, May 05, 2005, 22:34 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh no! I firmly believe that Joe H, AKA Just Joe, and conan are one and the same. ;0)(reply to this comment)

from thepersoniamnow Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 08:49 (Agree/Disagree?) Amen! (reply to this comment)