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from elkyle Friday, March 11, 2005 - 23:04 (Agree/Disagree?) have read this whole thread. * database of stories, contacts, references, name changes, etc; cross referenced, ACCESSABLE. let the word get around. outcry will do wonders, already starting to see it. * use of hackers: money trail, payoffs, public records, legal name changes [someone posted zerby's somewhere here]; likely someone can get into tf computers/email accts. * ricky rodriguez referred to boondock saints. anyone seen this? see it. * so...trafficking if you're dealing with someone not your family, child abuse (denied) if you're dealing WITH your family. way around it: call everyone your family!!! (reply to this comment)

from Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 10:22 (Agree/Disagree?) I think you have the best intentions in mind when you write this, however you are misinformed about some crucial points. I should probably explain that I experienced direct abuse of all but two kinds, and that would be the incestuous and homosexual varieties. My own parents never participated or condoned this behaviour, and were in fact unaware this (sexual abuse) had happened to me. I since have done some research and found that it is especially common for male victims to hide and supress this kind of information. The problem for a lot of people my age bracket (I caught the tail end of the main epidemic), is that we never knew the identities of our attackers. Couple that with the fact that in most cases it happened abroad, then throw in a statute of limitations. This makes it impossible to prosecute. Get the picture? It's not some criminal attitude of fatalism as you seem to consider it, just a coping with reality, something at which we are singularily adept thanks to long and painful years of practice. If you look at the history of attempts at shutting TF down, you'll find that the only people to have ever suffered are those at the bottom. I can tell you this from personal experience as I was sequestered in government institutions for months on end. It's true that in every major case most F* members were exonerated, but that's because it's always the bottom rung that takes the brunt of government investigations. This is also used by them (the top) as an example of how the world is full of enemies. This has the effect of galvinizing the collective will of the lower strata. It's their own Alamo cry. The top leadership of TF honed their skills at evading secular authority in the lated 70's and early 80's. Berg was a personal aquaintence of Quadaffi during the height of the his terrorist years, they've learned how to hide from the very best. TF has done a lot of evil, but TF is not, nor has ever been into trafficking children. This needs to be clear. It's important to accuse them of what they have done, there's plenty of evidence of their crimes, but we must not yield to wild speculation as this can only damage our crediblity. The reason it has taken this long to make a big noise is that a lot of young victimized members have just recently left the group. It takes time to come to terms with abuse enough to pick it apart in private, and even longer to come out in public with this kind of thing. Some never will. This absolutely does not make one a criminal. And this especially does not make one an abuser! Considering our particular past a statement like that is abrasive and highly insulting. But most of all it's simply ignorant. I beleive you want to help and that your offer is sincere. Please take time to talk to some of the people who are working to bring these monsters to justice. There is a war cry even if you haven't heard it yet! Please realize that while we have really just begun to gather momentum, TF leaders have been preparing their hidey-hole for decades. Their facade is very convincing and well maintained. And very well funded. These are not advantages we share, but it doesn't mean we are not trying. The tragedy of it all is that it takes the sensationalism of a murder/suicide to draw attention to these matters. Where was the interest of people such as yourself before that? This arguably makes society the criminal through callous negligence, not us victims. (reply to this comment)

From rockyv Thursday, March 10, 2005, 22:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Believe it truthsoldier what is said here is all true and more,i was raised in tough areas my whole life i have known the worst of the worst but they can be caught because they always resort to violence to solve matters.But the family act like you are crazy when you bring up how they operate, they say you are harassing their peace loving lifestyle.They hit back sometimes with almost word for word affidavits that you or the person you are defending are the ones that committed the crimes said.The family are masters at illusion.You need more than one affidavit you need all factual timmings/ dates /locations reasons for being where you were.Then proof they were there eg;passports/visas /banking details photos /videos ,as they will say they were not there ,then their immediate family and friends will say you are lying(most family/families have half a dozen siblings to call you an outright liar also ,(even if one of their older brothers has been molesting them also).It is very unfortunate that lie detectors are not used more readily we would not be going to court once a month ,,and all of the (second gnrs would get the compensation they all deserve),because as i have said before they lie continually even in court rooms they will tell the same story twice two different ways and get away with it.I am rambling need some sleep hope you all get together and share thoughts it is the only way to win.All are welcome to send me an email always willing to help . Keep it up truthsoldier it all helps.(reply to this comment)

From TruthSoldier Thursday, March 10, 2005, 14:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Thanks for bringing up these points. It helps me see that it's a much more complex situation than I realize. It isn't as simple as just 'having them arrested'. I am not a legal expert, but it just seems like there are some key differences between prosecuting Zerby/Smith and prosecuting a terrorist leader or a mob boss. The Family International (or whatever they are named this week) is an actual business/charitable organization, which makes it subject to all kinds of laws and regulations. You cannot solicit donations worldwide without the authorities having an idea where that money is going- someone, somewhere is on the legal books and accountable. Just follow the money trail. I realize they are in hiding but I would bet that a really good P.I. could find them- and the FBI definitely could if they really tried. Secondly, not to be rude, but how do you KNOW that there is no child trafficking, child porn, or child prostitution going on at high levels? Based on the leaderships total lack of morals and their lust for money and power, it seems very reasonable to me that they have provided sex dates or child porn for powerful officials. They probably get money and/or blackmail material by doing this. Only a select few would know about it. It's impossible to know for sure until the case is busted open. Your final statement strikes me as a bit unfair. Unfortunately it did take a murder/suicide to bring this to the attention of the news media, and thus to people like myself. Same with the Branch Davidians- no one knew they existed until the Waco incident. You explained Zerby/Smiths security measures and how good they are at hiding the truth, so how would you expect the public to have any clue this was happening? If more people knew about this, something would surely be done. Finally, I think too much has been made about how hard it would be to catch them. We are not talking about Bin Laden here. Zerby/Smith are not genius', they are not masterminds at evading justice, they are not untouchable. They are simply two pathetic, insane, and impotent individuals, running for their lives. They do not wield the kind of evasive power you think they do. I think as the circle closes in tighter around them, you will see just how weak and vulnerable they are. You do not need for children to know the names of their abusers to get a conviction. You only need to prove that abuse was systemic, and that it was endorsed and ordered by Berg, Zerby, and Smith. I would think that the evidence of that can easily be found in the literature that they produced.(reply to this comment)

From Sonderval Friday, March 11, 2005, 00:40 (Agree/Disagree?) I think you still misunderstand one basic point, all the difficulties that people have mentioned here are the reasons why they haven't been 'successfully' pursued, not excuses for lack of action. The reason the tone of your post is somewhat offensive is you have assumed that nothing or very little is being done just because you don't know about it, whereas the opposite is the case. Everything that can be done is being done and will continue to be done until they are brought down, they are being pursued for everything that can be brought against them. The reason you probably don't know about it is it's not clever to spill details of ongoing investigations and cases over a public website, where specific help is needed with a case that the people here can help with there's sometimes a post asking for it. I'm afraid I think you have a little too much faith in the speed and effectiveness of 'the authorities', despite the amount of publicity, literature and first hand testimonies of crimes of several kinds this organisation is still being allowed to operate, the reasons for this are complex but rest assured there are many people here who are doing everything possible to change this. Do not lecture us for our inactivity, you are speaking from ignorance.(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 10, 2005, 18:19 (Agree/Disagree?) Perhaps you're right and I was bit unfair. I could hold a mirror to you however, and say the same thing. You did after all call certain of the victims abusers by default. So let's grow some thicker skin. I beleive we're all on the same side, that being the side of justice. I see where you're comming from on the child trafficking idea. What you need to understand is that while TF is closed to outsiders it's quite open with it's own trusted members when it comes to dogma and practices. It used to be anyway. Child trafficking is a very specific activity, and while we can whittle the square peg to fit the round hole it's just not the same thing. Some parents did abduct children from spouses and move them around, I myself was. TF did support this activity, but I think it's a stretch to call it trafficking. In the cases that come to mind it was the ultimate decision of the parent in question. This kind of thing happens all the time outside of TF, but I don't think they call it trafficking. I guess it all comes down to what one defines as the trafficking of humans. On the issue of child porn, no one is arguing that (except TF). In fact that's kinda the point! Children were used for sex, that is a disturbing fact. Another thing is the money. Ordinarily you would be right, follow the money and you find the criminal. TF however uses mules who carry large amounts of cash, up to $200,000 from one place to the next. (I know an ex-mule). This makes it hard to track. One can be quite evasive with decades of experience, a powerful motive, and millions of under the table dollars a month! I do beleive the FBI could get them if they really wanted. I beleive that if Zerby and co. were accused of murder it would be another matter. I wonder if with this kind of money moving around, would the Secret Service be interested? TF's had quite a presence at the Whitehouse and even they (SS) didn't crack that nut, which is amazing considering Bergs anti-Americanism and his penchant for hanging out with terrorist dictators. He even "prophesied" in favor of one. You're right about Zerby and co. not being Bin-Laden. They may have learned their craft from Quaddaffi though, Berg was on friendly terms with him. Did you miss that in my last post? A rich terrorist who can hide is a good as another. Zerby and co. have been evading interpol for decades, I'll let you decide weather that makes them good at it or not. Honestly, I don't blame you for your skepticism. I have yet to meet someone not raised in TF who beleives half of what I tell them, and I never tell the half of it. It's just too exhaustive and most of the time I lose friends over it, and even if I don't lose them as friends they never quite look at me the same. How could they? It's just too odd. Finally I want to thank you for your interest in this matter. We need people like you to be interested because this can only help. Please don't take anything said here too personaly, it's such a sore matter for a lot of us that we can be a bit jumpy sometimes. Feel free to ask any questions you like, and to pick it apart as you must. This can only serve to make us clearer and more concise to the general public. We need our voices heard and would hate to put you off. Best wishes and regards. (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 10, 2005, 19:01 (Agree/Disagree?) http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/togo0403/togo0303-02.htm For the purposes of analysis, Human Rights Watch used the definition of child trafficking found in the U.N. Trafficking Protocol: the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harboring or receipt of any person under the age of eighteen for the purposes of sexual or labor exploitation, forced labor, or slavery.7 We interpreted the key elements of this definition to be the involvement of a trafficker, the movement of a child to a new location, and the intent to exploit the child at some point in the process.8 Although the concept of "exploitation" is not defined under international law, we considered as exploitation any non-consensual use of the child's labor for financial or other benefit, including forced labor, slavery, practices similar to slavery, servitude, and the worst forms of child labor as defined by the ILO.9 (reply to this comment)

From Sonderval Friday, March 11, 2005, 00:49 (Agree/Disagree?) Unfortunately the UN wields little to no real power as has been proven over and over again in recent years, it's a place for people to talk and be seen to be talking, I think it's unlikely we will get justice through there. And human rights watch although a very respectable organisation (I'm involved in Amnesty International myself) again wields no real power, they do not have the resources to take on TF and most likely would not as it wouldn't be at the top of their agenda, they focus more on problems at a national government level.(reply to this comment)

From what would it be? Friday, March 11, 2005, 16:03 (Agree/Disagree?) sonderval if you were to draft an ultimate plan for bringing TF abusers to justice what would it be?(reply to this comment)

From Sonderval Saturday, March 12, 2005, 04:54 (Agree/Disagree?) Like I said, I think that most of what can be done is being done, as I said earlier in this thread I'm not recommending inaction or saying to use the difficulty of the task as an excuse, the only thing I took issue with was his railing at everyone that not enough was being done without taking the time to try and find out what he was talking about first. The way to bring them down is to keep the pressure on by every means possible (I don't see the UN as a possible means is all), civil, criminal and publicity. They are criminals in every sense of the word and they will eventually be brought down if enough attention and pressure can be brought to bear, their organisation is showing cracks and eventually it will crumble and they will be in a world of shit when it does. The only thing I took offense to in his post was the fact that he accused us of not doing this already, we haven't won yet because it's hard work. As for an ultimate plan, in a different situation I'd hunt the bastards down and give them the justice they will never fully get in today's society, but I have a son so trying that's not even an option, I can't sacrifice his future to my past. I don't think I believe justice is possible in this case, justice would be visiting all the pain that they've caused back on them, all we can hope for is tearing their machine apart before it fucks up anyone else.(reply to this comment)

From $$$ Friday, March 11, 2005, 18:20 (Agree/Disagree?) Start a foundation geared to financing what will undoubtedly be costly legal battles. Offer rewards for legitimate info on abusers. Hire PI's. Continue the concerted effort to cut them off at the knees/money. (reply to this comment)

From Sonderval Saturday, March 12, 2005, 04:56 (Agree/Disagree?) You need cash to start a foundation and right now I'm skint, just separated and I'm trying to get another place to live sorted so I can look after my son properly when I have him. But yeah, starting a foundation is a good idea, anyone ever given this some thought?(reply to this comment)

From $$$ Saturday, March 12, 2005, 10:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Obviously I didn't mean you yourself. I don't think a single one of us has that kind of money to throw away. But if it was a group effort we could start the snowball small and give it a good push. I'm sure there are plenty of people and corporations out there who would love to throw a little phylanthropy in the way of grants our way. Just think, if a paedohpile orginaztion can have success at it why not us? Our cause is certainly better.(reply to this comment)

From rockyv Saturday, March 12, 2005, 05:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Sonderval sounds like your a good man in my eye anyhow thinking of your son first that to me is gold ,but dont forget to look out for yourself ,ive been there i have two kids full time, have had for 5 1/2 years ,1 six 1 ten ,now,,, after breaking away is one of the harder times keep up the good work mate.(reply to this comment)

From Peter Amsterdam Friday, March 11, 2005, 16:40 (Agree/Disagree?) Please make sure to cc me.(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 10, 2005, 19:10 (Agree/Disagree?) http://www.antislavery.org/homepage/antislavery/trafficking.htm Question: What is trafficking? Is it slavery? Answer: Human trafficking involves the movement of people through violence, deception or coercion for the purpose of forced labour, servitude or slavery-like practices. It is slavery because traffickers use violence, threats, and other forms of coercion to force their victims to work against their will. This includes controlling their freedom of movement, where and when they will work and what pay, if any, they will receive. (reply to this comment)

From What is Slavery? Thursday, March 10, 2005, 19:15 (Agree/Disagree?) The term "forced labor" is defined in article 2.1 of ILO Convention No. 29 Concerning Forced Labour as "all work or service which is exacted from any person under the menace of any penalty and for which the said person has not offered himself voluntarily." The term "slavery" is defined in article 1.1 of the U.N. Slavery Convention as "the status or condition of a person over whom any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership are exercised." Practices similar to slavery are defined in article 1 of the U.N. Supplementary Convention on the Abolition of Slavery, the Slave Trade, and Institutions and Practices Similar to Slavery to include, among other things, debt bondage and serfdom. Servitude is not defined in international law, but it is understood that the above practices are forms of servitude.(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 10, 2005, 19:06 (Agree/Disagree?) http://www.stopchildtrafficking.org/site/Portrait.165.0.html Child trafficking is not confined to the borders of any one country. Each year thousands of children who have become victims of traffickers reach Western Europe as well. The procedure always follows a similar pattern: A young girl or boy is brought from one place to another. Often there is an intermediary involved who sells the child to another person. The intermediary pays the family and promises to educate the child or find him a good job. Instead of this, years of exploitation usually await the young boys and girls: They have to work as slaves in plantations or in households, they are forced into prostitution or into becoming drug couriers and beggars. Babies and small children also reach the commercial adoption market. The child traffickers target young girls and boys who live in poverty or have difficult family relationships. Defenceless and intimidated by the unfamiliar surroundings, they cannot fight against the persons exploiting them. Should they attempt to do so, they are forced into submission. The international campaign concentrates on fighting child trafficking. Following the definition of the UN-Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention (ODCCP) , child trafficking is considered to be: «the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harbouring or receipt of persons for the purpose of exploiting them by intimidation or the use of violence or other forms of force, by abduction, deception, fraud, the misuse of power or a position of vulnerability or by giving or receiving money or favours to obtain the consent of a person who holds control over another person» Also see the ‘Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons, Especially Women and Children‘ of the UN Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention (ODCCP) . Child Trafficking can be for the following purposes: Exploitation through work (incl. slave labour and bonded labour); Sexual exploitation (incl. prostitution and pornography); Exploitation through illegal activities (incl. begging and drug trafficking); The adoption trade; Marriage brokering. (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 10, 2005, 18:59 (Agree/Disagree?) http://www.savethechildren.net/nepal/key_issues/traffdefinition.html Definition of Trafficking The definition of trafficking continues to be the subject of debate, and there is no conclusive or even commonly agreed upon definition globally, regionally or even nationally. This in itself is indicative of the degree of ideological contention which marks the discourse on trafficking and related issues. Absence of consensus on the definition has crucial implications on strategic planning and programme development since some of the definitions which inform concrete practice may be contradictory to each other. However, there are some basic elements of trafficking that are widely agreed upon, such as violence, deception, coercion, deprivations of freedom of movement, abuse of authority, debt bondage, forced labour and slavery-like practices, and other forms of exploitation or use of force.(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 10, 2005, 19:16 (Agree/Disagree?) Definition of Child Trafficking The recruitment, transportation, transfer, harboring or receipt of persons, by means of threat or use of force or other forms of coercion, of abduction, of deception, of the abuse of power or of position of vulnerability or of the giving or receiving of payments or benefits to achieve the consent of a person having control over another person, for the purpose of exploitation. (The UN ODCCP Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons, especially Women and Children) http://childrensrightsindia.org/cact/icact.htm(reply to this comment)

From cassy Thursday, March 10, 2005, 14:50 (Agree/Disagree?) Thank you for posting this and for giving your support. You'll be glad to know that there are those of us doing just that, but details for obvious reasons cannot be forthcoming at the moment. But rest assured that there is more than just talk here on this. I agree, they can be tracked down without too much problem. I lived with them and they don't have the best of security measures when it comes down to it, even though they would like to think they do.(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 10, 2005, 12:03 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually, by most definitions of trafficking, it's inaccurate to say "TF is not, nor has ever been into trafficking children. " The thing is they trafficked in "their own" children, but often assisted in moving them around and hiding them from parents outside who had legitimate custody. I was such a child. I also consider the organized shuttling us around far and wide often away from parents to go work in various places for their benefit without pay or even a say in what we did fits the bill too.(reply to this comment)

from iagree Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 05:19 (Agree/Disagree?) Does anyone know where Zerby & Co. are living? It would be kind of hard to prosecute someone if we don't even know where they are. Another problem with prosecuting abusers from the cult is that in many cases we dont know their real names, we know them as "uncle...(bible name)" and have no clue where they are living. It's hard to think of the children that are still in the cult, I have brothers and sisters still in, but I think the best "revenge" we can have on the cult is to move on and do something useful with our lives. I heard over and over again that if I left the cult I never make it in the "system", and in fact the cult does not prepare children for the real world. When I left the cult, there were many ordinary day-to-day activities I had no clue about. I remember the first time I went to the post office and the bank, I was completely lost. But I think the fact that so many of us have left and gone on to lead relatively normal and successful lives proves that they are not invincible and they will not last forever. I don't believe in "God", at least not in the cultie definition of the word, but I do believe in a higher power, and that Zerby and co. will suffer for what they have done. (reply to this comment)

from Sonderval Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 00:56 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm afraid you don't understand the full scale of the problem, yes, legal battles are ongoing and more or less constant, many of the people involved in this site are involved in legal action of several different kinds, there are several difficulties involved due to the fact that the leaderdhip structure is in hiding, the security structure would make several terrorist organisations envious, and the organisation has had a lot of success in covering up evidence and obscuring the issues over the years so they have proven very difficult to take down. There is hardly anyone on this site who will offer any justification for what the family has done, quite the opposite, I'm really not sure where you got that from, have you actually been reading what people say here or did you just try and fit what you read into your own preconceptions. Before you say things like "My opinion is that, as harsh as it sounds, anyone who has a legitimate case against the Family leadership and doesn't bring it to the FBI or some other agency is complicit in child abuse. Every child that suffers today in this cult is there only because no one has taken the steps to shut the cult down." I think you should do a little more checking and find out if anything actually is getting done, that paragraph was offensive and spoken from complete ignorance, where the hell do you get off coming on so strong when you have no idea what you're talking about? If you're curious about what is being done then please take some time and look around, if you think you can assist with anything then of course help is always welcome, but DO NOT TRY AND LECTURE US ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK WE SHOULD BE DOING ABOUT THE ORGANISATION THAT HAS RUINED THE LIVES OF MANY OF THE PEOPLE HERE. (reply to this comment)

From rockyv Thursday, March 10, 2005, 04:37 (Agree/Disagree?) I believe this guy was maybe trying to help. Apart from the paragraph which you have pointed out i think this man has very valid points .I am also an outsider that has had this same thought pattern in the past ,but now i realize why most ex members attack any persons that ask these Q's.Please dont shut all of us out ,i have a very good friend that left in 2000 but is still harassed by current members ,they will not leave her alone to get on with life.This woman has only had outsiders to help her, this is sad ,maybe trying to stick together as well as accepting outside help may help.Tell me to fuck off and mind my own but i will not stop helping those that want help.I hope this guy has the same attitude.(reply to this comment)

From Sonderval Thursday, March 10, 2005, 05:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I truly believe that his post was made from a deeply felt desire to make things better and to help, but that doesn't change the fact that his post was lecturing and ill-informed, a very bad combination particularly when dealing with a subject as sensitive as the organisation that has f**ked over and warped most of the people here since birth. I respect his motives but if you're going to come stomping into the middle of a situation you don't understand (I'm sure your parents were too religious and that's bad, but I'm afraid it doesn't really mean you understand our issues) and start shooting your mouth of telling the victims that they're not doing anything and are complicit in child abuse because of it without actually asking politely what's being done first then you will get slapped. I left the cult when I was 15 without my family and have had to claw my way into normal human society and establish the rickety level of stability I now have, I also did this without help because I didn't know there was help available, this website is one way that some ex-members are trying to extend a hand to others in the same boat and give and receive mutual support. I haven't told anyone to f**k off (damn work, hate censoring myself) and don't want to give that impression, just don't go stomping round like you own the place and know what's best for everyone.(reply to this comment)

From rockyv Thursday, March 10, 2005, 22:54 (Agree/Disagree?) Sonderval i didnt mean you, hope i didnt offend.I have been told to fuck off in the past but now it seems i am trusted a bit more ,i dont want to offend anyone that is supporting what i stand for. (reply to this comment)

From TruthSoldier Thursday, March 10, 2005, 09:44 (Agree/Disagree?) "just don't go stomping round like you own the place and know what's best for everyone" Wow, I'm truly sorry. That is the exact opposite of how I wanted to come off. I didn't mean to come here and call all of you criminals for not bringing down TF. I don't think I really did that, but I see that my words were taken that way. I fully realize that when most people leave TF they are disoriented and ill-prepared for "real life" at first. The main thing that all of you probably want to do is just move on and get your own life together, and try to forget about your years in TF. Totally understandable. My only point was that after you have regained some footing in the System world, and feel that you are doing okay, it would be nice to turn some of your efforts toward helping those who haven't been so lucky. And, I know that some of you ARE doing this, and that most of you are doing all you feel that you can. As far as the criminal complicity I mentioned, let me try an analogy: Let's say that I've been taking my 5 year old son to a daycare center for the past 3 years. One day, I find out through a totally reliable source, that the daycare center director has been routinely molesting many of the children there. I talk to my son and find out that he has not been molested. I am relieved. I immediately pull him out of the daycare center and take him to a different one. I walk away from the whole ordeal, happy that my son is now safe, but ignoring the other children who I now know are still being molested at this daycare center. Am I guilty of any crime? probably not. Am I guilty of moral negligence for not doing anything to report the molester? probably. Is it my responsibility to make sure that the daycare center is unable to continue molesting children? YES! Sometimes responsibilities like this are thrust upon you whether you like it or not. Having concrete knowledge that children are being hurt makes it your moral responsibility as a fellow human being to help them if you can. As for the difficulty in this case, tracking down Zerby, etc. that is all work for law enforcement. It can certainly be done. They are running a "legal" organization which solicits donations all over the world. This means that they are subject to government oversight. They need to keep accurate records, and report to various authorities. The average TF member may not know where they are, but I guarantee you the authorities could find them. The only thing that is needed is a group of ex-members to band together and accumilate all the evidence they can. Then take this evidence and find a good lawyer who is willing to help. When the evidence is presented to the authorities, they will have no choice but to track Zerby and Kelly down. I know that not many FGAs post on this site, but the responsibility runs deepest for them, by far. They are the ones that made this whole cult possible. Without these 'sheep', David Berg would have just been a lone lunatic talking to himself in an alley somewhere, pissing his pants and passing out on cheap wine. A cult is only possible if it has followers. Therefore, the followers that built this whole thing share responsibility for each and every child who has suffered as a result. I'm sorry to any people who I offended. (reply to this comment)

From Perry Thursday, March 10, 2005, 12:11 (Agree/Disagree?) "The average TF member may not know where they are, but I guarantee you the authorities could find them." Are you so sure you can make such an guarantee? Let's hope you're right, but its a pretty big world, with lots of nooks and crannys to hide in. And they've been masters of deception for decades. What it might take, imo, is for some very close insiders to finally see their "mission" is doomed, and to pull a "judas" on them.(reply to this comment)

From Judas Thursday, March 10, 2005, 14:36 (Agree/Disagree?) There's always a Judas, maybe a little $$ on Zerby's head with flush them out?(reply to this comment)

From $$$ Thursday, March 10, 2005, 18:24 (Agree/Disagree?) Well here, let me pull it out of my ass! Zerby has millions, can anybody here beat that?(reply to this comment)

From Born Again Systemite Friday, March 11, 2005, 19:27 (Agree/Disagree?) I might be willing to put up $25K for information leading to Zerby's appearance in court. That's only 1/10th of what the US government put on Bin Laden's head, but if the money actually resulted in a halfway decent class-action lawsuit that dragged her skanky ass into court? I'd see it as philanthropy toward the betterment of society and child welfare.(reply to this comment)

From TruthSoldier Thursday, March 10, 2005, 09:55 (Agree/Disagree?) One other quick point I'd like to make... I do not believe in heaven or hell. I think these are basic tools of fear/reward that are so obviously used to control others. I know many ex TF don't believe in God at all. If your philosophical stance is that there is no heaven or hell, then you realize this life is all we have- there is no 'karma' or justice that will happen after we die. That means that if Zerby/Kelly don't pay for their crimes here and now, in this life, then they never will. Time is running out. (reply to this comment)

From Black Elk Thursday, March 10, 2005, 11:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Time is on the side of the second generation. Time is running out for Zerby & Smith. Karen is now 58 years old. If she stays within the mean life expectancy for white females, she will be dead in 30 years. Members of the secong generation will be in their 50s and early 60s then--at the height of their economic and social power as adults. If Zerby & Peter continue to live past tomorrow, the inalterable, steady decline in their faculties will continue. Zerby is legally blind and shows signs of brain disease. She slept her way to power, and the number of males she can manipulate and control with a wrinkled, liver-spotted body decked out in a cheesy satin nightgown diminishes with each passing day. Peter runs around in a cheap toupee and shows off pics of his naked wife when he's done talking to the boys about taking it up the a** from Jesus. Sounds like early onset of senile dementia to me. Time is clearly on the side of the second generation.(reply to this comment)

From TruthSoldier Friday, March 11, 2005, 10:48 (Agree/Disagree?) Thank you all for your comments. I realize a bit sheepishly now that I wrote my original post without enough information. Through reading more on this site, and reading your comments on my post, I do see how I came off as naive, arrogant, and offensive. Sorry for that. Thanks for not kicking my ass off this board as a "clueless outsider" and for taking the time to explain some of these points. My biggest disappointment and frustration is that law enforcement/government does not already have a solid apparatus for prosecuting cult leaders. If you look back at the history of cults like TF, you see that they almost always end in tragedy. Jim Jones, Branch Davidians, Heavens Gate, etc. The list goes on. This shows that when these desperate leaders finally end up with their backs against the wall, they are willing to sacrifice themselves and all of their followers in either a mass suicide or a showdown with authorities. This is really scary, because I could see how TF could convince their die-hard followers that any attack by law enforcement is 'the end time prophecy coming true- the Romans are persecuting us' etc., and use this to rally Family members into violence against "the system". I realize now how difficult a straightforward prosecution may be. However, I have been thinking about the fact that some of the most tricky criminal organizations have been brought down for some unlikely things. A perfect example- mob bosses like John Gotti are almost never brought down for murder or racketeering- but they are taken down for things like tax evasion. Catholic priests are not usually criminally convicted for molestation, but they are forced to pay millions through civil suits. Maybe this is where the hope lies. I feel certain, based on what I've read, that TF leaders move mass amounts of money around the globe and do not legally report their 'earnings'. Perhaps this could be their downfall. Authorities may be pretty callous when it comes to prosecuting child abuse, but they sure as hell hate it when someone doesn't give the government thier share of the money. Perhaps a Civil Suit is the way to go, rather than criminal. Civil cases have a much better history of winning in situations like this. All you need to do is convince a jury that damages were inflicted, which should be possible after you parade 20 kids to the stand with tales of horrific abuse. One thing I've been wondering about is if the average ex-member feels that more publicity on the case would help. Would you rather this story be kept low-profile, and deal with it on your own, or would you like to publicize it far and wide so that more people step up to help? I wonder about this because that's one of the few things I could do to help, as an outsider. I make films and documentaries, and would have a shot at getting this story out there. Any thoughts on that? (reply to this comment)

From Friday, March 11, 2005, 23:18 (Agree/Disagree?) justice has been served in THIS case, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/world/americas/4340591.stm and it doesn't appear he took them down with him...maybe his followers are like the witch's flying monkey soldiers in the 'Wizard of Oz', they were not so much loyal as they were afraid, and happy to be free.(reply to this comment)

From Friday, March 11, 2005, 18:24 (Agree/Disagree?) I think it's great! You could make a formal request here on this site, and on the Xfamily site as well. (reply to this comment)

From Albatross Friday, March 11, 2005, 14:09 (Agree/Disagree?) Publicity is the KEY. They support themselves by foisting a falsehood on the public. Until they are willing to deal with the allegations of abuse, we should leave them no dark corner to hide in. Daniel Roselle(reply to this comment)

From Friday, March 11, 2005, 14:34 (Agree/Disagree?) The Family's strategy, it seems, can best be the described as the "arm wave look over there" defense. Instead of addressing the subject at hand they hope to distract those wanting an answer by waving their arms wildly so as to distract the questioner by the exaggerated motion (the repeated muttering of "religious persecution" helps with that too), and if that doesn't work, they'll say "look over there!!" and when you do, they run away.(reply to this comment)