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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from DarkAngel
Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 10:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
May be one tip to you Lanna ,it might not be in your best interrest to give too many details of your plans on this board as Fam.leaders are regularly checking anti fam. sites ....How about writing to Jule straight before your parents hear some details from insiders and do something to prevent you from moving on ,or even just make it more difficult for you.....
Ihope the best for you....
(reply to this comment)
| from Vicky
Monday, January 12, 2004 - 15:16
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Once you turn 16 you should be able to have more say over what happens in your life, unless your parents are completely unreasonable. Try and see if you can convince your parents to let you go to school (if you're not already doing so) as it would be helpful if you've already got used to that by the time you leave all the way.
I would imagine that you should be able to get a lot of help from the government as far as somewhere to live and studies etc, although someone who's lived in Scandinavia more recently than me would probably be able to advise you on that better than I can.
Perhaps you could email Silver or Rae (use the directory) as they have experienced it there and may be able to give you advice on realistic avenues and how to go about it.
Hope everything works out for you.
Remember you have your whole life ahead of you - And at least you are making decisions now, at the age of 15, that some of us wish we had been grown-up enough to make years ago.
(reply to this comment)
| from Sonderval
Monday, January 12, 2004 - 15:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
Bah, had just typed out a really long reply and my son (sitting on my lap while I'm at the computer) mashed the keyboard and refreshed the page, thus deleting the lot, ACK.
Well, for a start, take a serious chill pill Joe, she's not asking for your sympathy, she's looking for advice about how to leave in the only place she can look for it, she's stated her situation and her reasons, are you suggesting that she stay in the family till she has the crap beaten out of her or get's raped, or are you saying that those are the only people that are allowed to ask for advice on how to leave?
Anyways, to answer your question, my advice is just don't, there's nothing in the outside world for those under 16 at the youngest, before then you need to live with your parents or live on the street (or there's always fostering, but it's pot luck, if you're not being molested where you are I wouldn't gamble) and the street is a BAD place, take it from one who knows, it's dangerous, it's cold, the people are largely scum, it's a bloody nightmare to get anywhere from that start in life, it can be done but it takes a fair old while to recover from it, just don't.
Wait till your 16, and in the interim really examine your reasons for leaving, don't leave over a boyfriend no matter how seriously you feel about him, if you make such a massive change in your life for someone else it does not get you off to a good start, you need to sit down and really think about the family and about what you believe, if you don't believe in what you've been taught in the family then you don't belong there and need to leave to find your own niche in life, but do it for yourself and yourself alone, it may sound like a trite bullshit cliche but it's true, when you leave step out on your own for your own reasons, it will make the world of difference to how you approach the outside world.
As for being depressed, don't count on that changing when you leave, some people struggle for their entire life with depression, I suffered badly with it in the family and surprisingly enough I suffered with it when I left, took me years to get over it, there are no quick fixes for just about anything in life, everything takes work, consider that lesson 1 and you'll go far.
As far as your relationship with that guy goes, I hope that when you get out you two get together and live happily ever after, but there's many kinds of love and you won't know whether what you've got there is 'true love' till you've spent a lot longer together than you have so far, I'd suggest being stuck in a car for 12 hours, living together for a year and being broke for long periods of time, if you two get through that lot and still love each other then it might just be, but most likely you'll fall in love plenty of times before you find 'true love' I'm afraid, and that's not even counting falling in lust. Of course you two might be the exception, it happens, just don't count on it.
In the meantime, see if your parents are willing to have you take a distance learning course, tell them you never know when it might come in handy and it can't hurt, there's even a number of christian ones around, and any qualification is better than none when you do leave.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | |  From Sonderval
Wednesday, January 14, 2004, 06:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
Oh, incidentally, someone was looking for a tip for the currency market the other day, think it was Joe, my advice then was to wait a bit to sell the USD, I'd probably change that now to perhaps buying either the Chinese Yuan or the JPY, either is a fairly good bet at the moment, the Bank of Japan has been intervening for a fair while now and it's starting to look like they're going to have to stop (political pressure to allow a rise in the value of the JPY), if that happens then the JPY will probably have quite a swift correction in value against all the majors, particularly the USD, as for the Chinese Yuan they've been investing heavily over the past year in USD for FX reserves and they now have a fairly big reserve, and as they've just joined the WTO several of their trade restrictions are now being lifted and we could see a major reevaluation of the currency, both of these factors point to a possible rise in the Yuan this year.
Please note however that all investments have an element of risk, speculations on the foreign exchange market more than most, if you know an expert on horses you'd be as well going down the bookies and having a flutter on a racehorse. ;-)(reply to this comment) |
| | From exister
Wednesday, January 14, 2004, 10:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
Joe should probably buy a car before playing the foreign currency market.
Sonderval, isn't the risk of currency trading right up there with the futures market? For those of you astute enough to realize that there won't be any social security around by the time you're old (I can't wait to pull the money plug on the whole baby boom generation) the US stock market is your best bet. The best time to buy in is during a recession when everyone else is running away. As long as you don't follow the crowd you should do alright.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Sonderval
Wednesday, January 14, 2004, 10:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
Couple of problems with that, for a start the stock market is probably only slightly less risky than currency exchange, generally speaking the movements are slower and some of your profits rely on shareholder profits rather than appreciation.
But what you're assuming there is the company will make a profit, and that they won't go down in value, regardless of where you invest you can't know this, stock goes down in value as well as up and there are plenty of companies out there that don't do well. And although the risk is lower because it's not as volatile the returns are lower as well, safe investment=low return. I did say that currency speculation was risky ;-). As for buying stock in a recession, the companies hardest hit as far as prices go are the ones that are in the most danger of being wiped out or severely damaged by the recession, that's why people are selling the stock, therefore buying the stock when it's plummeting is a HUGE gamble, it can pay off bigtime or you might be left with very little.
The fact is there is no money lying around out there without either work or risk, the more skillful you are and the harder you work the more you can get, and you should never gamble what you can't afford to lose, but if you're an astute investor your gambles can pay off, and that's what it's all about. ;)
What I recommended to Joe (I really think it was Joe I had this conversation with but I could be wrong, my memory for names really really sucks) at the time was actually the property market, this has always been a field where a good eye for investment can really pay off, take some time and learn about buildings, preferably learn how to fix most stuff short of structural damage and having some natural talent for interior design helps as well. Look around the property market and buy a fixer upper, do it up and flog it on, there is a LOT of money to be made by doing this if you know what you're doing and the risks are very reasonable, after all, if you don't make a profit it's unlikely you'll make a loss, and every time you buy and sell a house you'll get a bit better at it (unless you've bought yourself a really crap house that's falling apart, so don't do that). The reason there's money to be made in this field is when most people sell their house they need to be rid of it, they've moved, they've inherited it and want the money, etc etc, so as the buyer you have the advantage, and if you're good at what you do you can buy a place that's been priced down because of poor condition and clean it up, it really doesn't take long, most house stuff is a piece of cake.
But that's in this country, dunno what the property market is like over there, suppose in LA where most people here seem to be it might be somewhat different.(reply to this comment) |
| | From exister
Wednesday, January 14, 2004, 10:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
What you say about real estate is true, however fixing houses is becoming a bit of a fad and the more people there are in the game the less winnings there are to go around. Then in markets like California the price of the lot can be 90% of what you pay for a fixer upper and consequently the returns on your sweat equity would be small compared to the entry price.
As for stocks I am not talking about baseless speculation on a few companies. The US stock indices have returned 10-11% annually for the last 40 years. This would indicate that a well diversified portfolio would yield similar returns. Not the jackpot by any means, but it will outpace inflation and keep you from living in a van down by the river.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Sonderval
Wednesday, January 14, 2004, 11:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
fair enough that, and it's true what you say about it becoming a bit of a fad, but I don't think the market has been fully exploited yet, there are still plenty of people out there who for one reason or another will sell their house for less than it's worth, trust me, I've got an agreed offer in on a FANTASTIC church at the moment that I'm going to do a complete conversion on, just sorting out the paperwork now, although as I don't think I'd ever be able to part with it you could say it's not really an investment, it's more of a purchase.
And yes, the overall returns on the US stock market are pretty good, to insure yourself against problems though you're best off investing in a good spread of companies and sectors though, and that takes a fair bit of money, and 10-11% is fairly good, but like I said, the bigger the potential profit the bigger the risk, and there is a LOT of money to be made in currency speculation if you get it right, but as you have so rightly put it, the risks reflect that and it's not a game for amateurs (I didn't advise him to join in, but he was quite keen on getting rid of some dollars).(reply to this comment) |
| | From Joe H
Wednesday, January 14, 2004, 11:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
Have you heard of The Efficient Markets hypothesis? It basically says that there is enough information going around about every stock, that the market price is an accurate price, and you really can't find an underpriced stock and then sell it a year later. With this in mind, your best bet is to buy an index fund with low maintenance fees, that way the profits that they do make aren't being eaten up by some hotshot managers who think they have the market cornered. Because no one in history has succeeded in successfully outperforming the market for more than a few years in a row.
That being said, do you think the Efficient Markets Hypothesis applies to the currency market? Could the factors you mentioned already be reflected in the Yen's current valuation? Or is it really undervalued?(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Sonderval
Wednesday, January 14, 2004, 12:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, for a start the Efficient Markets Hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis, where it falls down is that data is meaningless without interpretation, and interpretation varies wildly from economist to economist, because economies are based on politics, trade and economic stablity etc etc etc it's impossible to have all the data and analyze it sufficiently well to predict the future, and thus people wildly disagree about what the data means, therefore it's all about getting relevant information and working with it.
And what you said about nobody in history outperforming the market for more than a few years in a row isn't quite the whole story, many people do, but then they retire and spend all their lovely money on yachts and bimbo's with an artificial bust, these people exist, the reason they generally don't hang around gambling their money indefinitely is that if you don't set yourself a cut-off point when you start then eventually you will either lose everything or win everything, or die while still spending all your time on the stockmarket, so smart people set themselves a get out level and quit when they reach it.
As for the JPY situation, the reason it is low is because of intervention by the JPY, basically they have set a level at which they will buy all dollars that people want to sell for the JPY, this means that they are artificially preventing the JPY from gaining against the dollar. The reason they are doing this is it can be very damaging to have a strong currency, particularly against a trading partner, because if your currency is worth more than your partners they will buy less from you (because it's just become more expensive), thus damaging your industry, imports increase and exports decrease, never good.
What the Bank of Japan has done is gamble that the dollar will stop plummeting before they run out of money to bolster it against the JPY, they have artificially lowered the value of the JPY in the absence of economic or political factors, it is now starting to look like they may have to stop doing this as there is increasing political pressure to allow the JPY to strengthen somewhat (reasons are complex) and the USD is also showing no signs of an imminent halt in it's descent, this makes the JPY a potentially good investment if you can get in before the Bank of Japan ceases their interventions.
The flipside of this is that the bank of japan may not stop it's interventions and the USD may stop it's descent, it may in fact rebound, if there was a statement out to the effect that America was about to raise interest rates to combat the decline, etc etc etc, I don't think this will happen due to the recent protectionist stance being adopted by the US, it's also possible that investors will be flighty about the JPY after the recent interventions, it's impossible to fully predict these things.
What it comes down to is a judgement call, I personally think that the JPY will do well against the USD in the next few months, but that is my own opinion, it is one based on information taken from a couple of economists that have been giving me good information in the past and it's one that adds up in my view, but for every theory there is a counter theory and there are economists out there who would no doubt disagree with everything I've just said, that's why it's called speculation, which is just another word for gamble. ;-)(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Sonderval
Thursday, January 15, 2004, 02:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
sorry mate, no idea who you mean, can you link an article or something?
What he probably did was do some high risk investments without his client's consent intending to keep the profits for himself, it's much like someone taking the company payroll to vegas and losing it at roulette, same kinda mentality, if I win I'm sorted for the rest of my life, if I lose it's only a financial crime therefore I will probably only get a few years . . . .(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From exister
Wednesday, January 14, 2004, 11:40
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dude, you are buying a church?!? Do you plan in incorporating it into your Jesus blow up doll sex rituals. Sonderval's First Church of Kink?
I just finished rennovating my house last summer. You are right that there are lots of people who would rather take a loss than get their clothes dirty. They just don't appreciate the joys of putting on a pair of coveralls and diggin into the muck. Of course the best part is all the fun tools you get to buy. Let me know if you need a hand fixing up the church. I just might pack up the Dodge and start ambling your way. Yeehaw!(reply to this comment) |
| | From Sonderval
Wednesday, January 14, 2004, 11:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
heheh, well the Jesus Christ latex doll thing is definitely a factor, but tbh it's just because it's a cool building, we're gonna rip out everything except the walls (4 feet thick sandstone with stained glass windows btw) and roof and start from scratch, we're getting an architect involved for the loadbearing calculation side of things and for detailed plans, and then we'll be getting a builder to do the loadbearing walls and the first floor, after that I'll probably do most of the rest myself, internal walls and plastering and all that rubbish, haven't fully decided about wiring and plumbing as yet, done some repair work on both before but never actually installed from scratch, might be a bit much considering my work, studies and family commitments as well.
But either way, will keep you posted on how it goes mate, and that church comment got me wondering about something, am I the only ex-member who's considered starting a religious movement to fleece the dumbasses of the world in my more cynical moments? Would never actually do it of course, don't think I could ever be quite that callous, but it's funny to think about it sometimes. ;-)
Hrm, starting to think that we might be have derailed this thread a little bit . . . . .
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Sonderval
Thursday, January 15, 2004, 03:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
Definitely keeping it for me, and as for the pics I will do mate, once things are a bit further along, I don't technically own it yet, gotta go over survey report and probably get a sandstone treatment specialist type guy (that's the technical term) to inspect the walls, need to get my outline planning permission and change of use application accepted, then gotta get the mortgage sorted out, that's gonna require a bit of fast talking and/or bullshit, but I'm good at that, all this is before I've even completed the sale. :-/
But yeah, once it's mine I'll post a couple of photo's mate, be a looong time before the conversion is finished though, I'm currently thinking about two years, once the sale's completed there's still a lot of legal nonsense I need to get sorted out before we can even start building, but I'm good at law.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Joe H
Wednesday, January 14, 2004, 12:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yes, I've thought about starting a cult too. I even signed up my mom, sister, and a couple of my roommates onto my then 'religion' of Deist-Agnostic-Gnostic-Hedonist-Individualism. I'll let you figure out exactly what that line of thinking entailed.
But this old building of yours sounds awesome! Four feet thick walls? Can I come help?
(Did you see the Simpsons where Homer repossesses the church in some lawsuit and turns it into a real center of hedonism until God finally comes down and gives him his comeuppance?)(reply to this comment) |
| | From exister
Wednesday, January 14, 2004, 12:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
"The exister is not human! The exister is pure light and energy!"
"The exister is not human! The exister is pure light and energy!"
"The exister is not human! The exister is pure light and energy!"
See, I already have my chant ready for when I start a cult in Brazil. It will be primarily based upon the worship of the papaya fruit and it's magic enzymes. Our daily devotional ritual will consist of a chosen member performing a nude modern interpretive dance whilst rubbing herself down with crushed papaya. Then the crushed papaya will be consumed for breakfast.
While wiring be sure to lay plenty of high quality Cat 5 Ethernet cable. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | from Jules
Monday, January 12, 2004 - 14:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
Lanna,
There are a number of things you can do right now to prepare for life outside the Family. I was going to write you privately, but from what I understand there are a number of teenagers in the Family in similar situations to yours right now, so posting this here might be more helpful to other people as well. My younger siblings are in a similar situation to you, and so these things below are based on our own experience. (To everyone else, please excuse the length of this comment.)
1. Schooling
Are you currently in school? (A real school, not just “home schooling” or the CVC.) If you are not currently attending high school, I would suggest that you talk to your parents about this. The Family’s CVC curriculum is not credited, which means it is absolutely worthless when you are trying to apply for university or any higher education. A GED is what losers who drop out of school take because they get pregnant or are too lazy or messed up to attend their classes, and although it is worth more than the Family’s “educational programs”, if this is what you have, people will wonder what was wrong with you and why you couldn’t get a real high school diploma. You are still young enough to be able to catch up on the typical gaps in Family education, if you work hard, and there will be many more options open to you when you are of age if you are able to complete your high school education.
Also going to an outside school will begin to help you integrate into your society, while still living at home and not having to face everything all at once, which is the point of high school for “normal” kids. Public high school can sometimes be pretty rough at the best of times, so what my brothers and sisters did was to first attend a private Christian school, which was much smaller and a lot more conservative, and that helped them to learn to interact with other children their own age a bit before attending a huge high school later on. Smaller private schools are not that expensive, and your parents or relatives may be willing to contribute some money, or if your grades are good, some of these schools have scholarships available. One of my sisters, who attended a Buddhist private school, helped to pay for it herself by taking after school and summer jobs.
2. Language
Are you a Danish citizen? Do you speak the language fluently? This is pretty obvious I know, but it’s going to be difficult to get on your feet when you leave if you don’t have a solid grasp of the language. If you are not fluent, this might be something to talk to your parents about, as another reason why outside school would be a good idea.
3. Get in touch with outside relatives.
Do you have any older siblings who have left the Family already? Are you in contact with your grandparents or uncles and aunts? It’s a good idea to develop a relationship with these people, so that someone who cares about you (who is not a Family member) knows where you are and how you are doing. That can be a lifesaver if for example, your parents suddenly decide they want to go to South Africa and take you with them. While you are in your native country, you have a lot more opportunity to leave and to integrate successfully. It can be dangerous and very, very difficult to leave on your own from a completely foreign country. If your parents plan to leave Europe, call your relatives immediately and let them know.
Also, just because someone is a relative does not mean they are in a secure and stable place in their life right now and it would be better to check out your options as much as possible ahead of time rather than making a sudden decision to leave, going to live with someone and finding yourself dependent on a person who may be having a difficult time or not doing very well themselves.
4. Understand your rights.
As a child and a citizen of your country, you have certain rights that your parents cannot take away, no matter what their beliefs are. The right to an education is one of them. Cleaning and taking care of children are part of many children’s chores and part of being an individual family, but your parents cannot make you do these things full time and certainly not to the detriment of your education.
A place you can contact for information on your rights there in Denmark is a charity called Save the Children http://www.redbarnet.dk/. If you write privately to me or anyone else involved with the Safe Passage Foundation, we can give you more information privately and also help if you need support in communicating with your parents and other Family members or getting in touch with resources in your area.
5. Think about why you want to leave.
For just about every one of us, leaving the Family was the best decision we ever made. However I think it’s important to understand the reasons why we want to leave. Most teenagers anywhere in the world would say that their parents are too controlling, that they are generally bored, and a lot of teenagers feel depressed a lot of the time. I am sure you know this already, but leaving the Family will not solve all your problems. There is no guarantee of finding true love, or of financial success or that your life will be exciting and fun all of the time. What you do have when you leave the Family is the opportunity to do something more with your life than simply what you are told to do from one day to the next. You have the chance to become a human rights lawyer if you want, or you could start your own business, or you could be a mother and provide the very best care for your own children, or you could do all those things and more. You have the opportunity to learn anything you want, and to contribute to society in many other ways than just "missionary work". What I am trying to say is that if you know the positive reasons for why you want to choose a different life than the Family (rather than only what you don’t want any more), it will help a great deal in getting through the guilt that your parents and friends (and your own thoughts) will throw at you.
Most of us left the Family to do more with our lives, not less.
6. If you can, talk to your parents.
If it is at all possible, and you think that it is safe to do so without your life becoming hell, it might be best to talk to your parents about your decision to look at all your options. The Family’s Charter says that you have the right to leave the Family if you choose to do so, and also to continue to live with your parents while you are still underage. Although your parents will probably overreact initially and get a bit upset, if they love you, they will want you to be happy and doing well, and should come around eventually and support you, no matter what you decide to do with your life. Once they understand that you are not interested in being a “missionary” when you are an adult, they may back off a bit.
If possible it might be best to talk to them at a time when you are not fighting with them, but can do this calmly, so they don’t just dismiss your opinions as being “teenage rebellion”, but understand that this is a serious decision for you, and one you have thought through properly. If your parents are still unreasonable about you wanting to leave, then write to the VSs or COs, and even Maria and Peter (and keep copies of all correspondence with them). According to the Family’s own rules you have the right to leave if you want to and your parents cannot punish you for this. However, every parent has rules that they expect their underage children to follow while they live with them, so some compromises may be necessary. If you can take steps to prepare now, your freedom will come soon.
Good luck Lanna. It’s not easy to leave the Family and start over, but it possible and is definitely worth it. It's a huge change, but you don't have to do it alone.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | From exister
Monday, January 12, 2004, 14:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
Or you could be a molecular biologist.
Seriously though, the holes in our high school records can be hard to patch up. The good news is that once you have a legit bachelor's degree your high school record is all but erased. Move on to graduate school and it is pretty much your own dirty little secret.
And not to sound jaded or pedantic here, but Joe has a point. Don't be too quick to assert that you feel "true love" at age 15. Hell I didn't even have a grasp on that when I was 18. I hope this adolescent crush of yours isn't the primary driving force in your life altering decisions.(reply to this comment) |
| | from Joe H
Monday, January 12, 2004 - 13:15
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Oh, you got grounded and had to do extra chores? Cry me a fucking river! Come back when you have a REAL abuse story to complain about.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | From Sonderval
Monday, January 12, 2004, 16:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
So why flame her for it?
Besides her teen angst she asked some relevant questions about leaving the family, you decided to ignore those and rant about how much it annoyed you that she was a teenager who hadn't been badly abused, you said here that what she's going through is an integral part of her development so that pretty effectively pisses on your flame, what exactly have you added to this thread?
Just try being a little less vicious with 15 year old girls mate.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from exister
Monday, January 12, 2004 - 11:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
It is much more difficult to leave before age 18 than after. Many of us were fortunate enough to have a relative to take us in and get us on our feet. Still, I think the right combination of guts and effort can get you started without the help of relatives.
Regardless of age the primary challenge is in your mind. Once you are out you have to pay for housing, food, medical care etc. No amount of prayer or provisioning will get these things for you. It truly is a dog eat dog world out here and for the first few years you will have to adopt the attitude of a street hustler and be all about the muthafuckin' money. Once you get a handle on the economic realities of the real world you will be at leisure to pursue the finer points of a free life. If you fail to grasp these issues at the beginning then you will always be their slave.
Good luck, work hard and steer clear of those creeps you now live with.
(reply to this comment)
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