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from elisha717 Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 11:46 (Agree/Disagree?) By any chance would the "Martin" you're talking about be the Martin and Mercy that went to Spain after and started that type of "Victor Program" you were talking about?  And the teen shephard was named Paul, and he was the one who administered the spankings!?  I am wondering if these are the same people?  Because life at the Madrid Combo, (for awhile), was intense, and like you said, you had knots in your stomach all the time!  And the sort of living was very similar to what you just described up there. (reply to this comment)

from maydreamer Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 08:26 (Agree/Disagree?) read your article... maybe got a bit to carried away? (reply to this comment)

From SeanSwede Thursday, June 29, 2006, 09:33 (Agree/Disagree?) Go to hell!(reply to this comment)

From AndyH Thursday, June 29, 2006, 18:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Awww, so sweet. It's good to hear from you again, Sean. You big teddy bear you!(reply to this comment)

from Joey Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 07:13 (Agree/Disagree?) I will say one thing on this and that is that if it is the 'Paul' that I think you speak of that handed out the paddle to you is the same 'Paul' that is now the groups rep in Australia and he will know of the name 'Joey' before his miserable life is ended. He inflicted pain on children wherever he went and even though on the Australian 60 mins program he said that Berg was wrong in his approach to child sex he represents them still and his day of reckoning is still to come. Paul Hartington hear me now, "your day of reckoning is soon at hand", (spoken in your own horse shit St James Version english). Joey ( in case you missed it ) Remember me from India and Australia, my Mum's name is Jeniffer. You will know me before long. My pain has been transformed into strength, from the mouths of babes now lion's jaws. I am a fierce young man who has fought every inch of the way to maintain his spirit and my spirit has passed thru the fire already and has emerged the purest gold. ( Putting it into a format of words your small mind will grasp ) By being their representative you become the focus of worlds of anger and blame that have been until now ill directed or not directed at all. (reply to this comment)

From SeanSwede Sunday, March 12, 2006, 12:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah, Paul. This is Sean from the VC in Japan. I remember you and what you did to me when I was only a child of 12 yrs old. Damn you you sick mother fucker. One day, one day you will pay dearly and nothing and nobody or any amount of money will save you...trust me!(reply to this comment)

From I wonder Sunday, March 12, 2006, 16:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Is this the same Paul? Look at this post I found: the elusive paul and joy Posted by susie on March 12, 2006 at 18:10:00 I heard on the exmember grapevine that Paul just received a $20,000 Australian government grant to study persecution of religious minorities. What a scammer! http://www.exfamily.org/cgi-bin/gf.pl?fmt=dyn&t=chatbbs&m=9&s=0&r=chatbbs/genx/genx_main.html(reply to this comment)

From Joey Monday, March 13, 2006, 04:45 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm gonna love watching little Johnny Howard squirm his way out of this one! Joey ( Hello again Paul! )(reply to this comment)

From Sydney Monday, March 06, 2006, 20:53 (Agree/Disagree?) I am a Sydney ex member who was "bashed" repeatedly with a metal sticks, wood paddles and had my head hit against a brick wall. My face rubbed in my urinated sheets almost every morning in front of the whole dorm I slept in... I “was forced” to wear diapers even though I was 8 and older. Paraded around the rest of the children in the home showing them what a big baby I was. The teachers also made the other children come and watch as they put the diapers on me (NAKED LEGS SPREAD IN THE AIR) to show that “if I was going to let the devil make me act like a baby” they were going to treat me as such. Often my teachers would make me sleep in my wet dirty sheets for weeks on end…rotting and stinking other times I would just make my bed and not tell them I wet it for fear of being beaten further. I use the same moldy rotting mattress for 4 years and had to take it with me to whatever home I was moved to…as it was a waste to give me a new one, and a waste of the lords money to wash my sheets so often. I felt humiliated and did not know what was happening to my body and why this was happening…it wasn’t that I wanted to pee my bed… I was constantly in tears and embarrassed that I was so “disgusting!” to "teach me a lesson" so that I would stop wetting the bed...they would get the whole home to pray for my “problem” saying I was being just like Rachel’s kids in the book of Davidito. I was told I was lazy and possessed by the devil as I wet my bed until I was 14. I was deprived of water after 5pm… forbidden to drink anything between then and bedtime which was usually at 10. This was supposedly suppose to stop me from wetting my bed…it did not… even if I was really thirsty I was denied water. (my appendix burst years later as a result.) Never once did they stop to think that possibly I needed to see a doctor… I was very small for my age in both height and weight due to never having enough food to eat…as a result because I looked 2-3 years younger then I was…they would constantly put me in the younger classes even though I told them I was older…. If it wasn’t for my mum (she was forced to be home cook wherever we went…until someone decided that she was being to nice and making too much luxury food “in other words not enough liver and shitt MUSH” and demoted her.) and some of my very sneaky resourceful friends I would have never eaten enough food to get by. ( one of my friends use to daringly sneak into the survival stockpile stored in this huge garage thing and bring back all kinds of junk that we’d all stay up eating late at night secretly in bed.) My family was treated like Shit as we were partly Asian… did any of you guys ever notice that is was usually the white members who were home leaders in Australia …while most ethnic members were put in childcare, cleaning, and basically treated like slaves at their beck and call. I was then "forced" during the Sydney raids by the leaders at the time to tell in the Sydney legal court case that my bed-wetting was a result of traumatic stress caused by being taken from my home...and that it only started after I was taken away. As a result, I was a key person in the family in Sydney having a strong case against the government that we children were damaged by the raids... and then what happens…. When the court case money gets divided up Paul and joy take the largest cut for their kids and family leaving me with nothing…!!! ASSHOLES After leaving when I was 16, over four years ago, after going to the doctors and receiving care I have been told that I have a medical problem which was the reason for my bed wetting (go figure!!!…I knew I wasn’t demon possessed.…hahaha) and that I should have had medical attention years, and years ago...and that as a result of lack of medical attention I have on-going medical problems with my liver, gallbladder, bladder. DRUM ROLL FOR ALL YOU ASSHOLES OUT THERE !!! HERE’S YOUR CHANCE FOR FAME AS I LIST THE NAMES OF THE TWO MOST EVIL PEOPLE I KNOW PAUL and JOY HARTINGTON- take a bow I WANT TO GET EVEN, I WANT JUSTICE, ANYONE ELSE??????? (reply to this comment)

From SeanSwede Sunday, March 12, 2006, 12:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Where can we find this Paul Harthington (Australien)? He is actually on a special WANTED list that I heard of years back. I hope he is scared because people are really trying to find him. He can run but he cannot hide. And when they find him...game over!(reply to this comment)

From Shintaro Sunday, March 12, 2006, 21:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Paul is not that hard to find but i dont think he is all that worried he has blacksheep and his ninja bodyguards.(reply to this comment)

from ESJ Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 03:48 (Agree/Disagree?) It's very heartbreaking to read about what you and many other SGA's had to go through, Sean. (I did read it the first time around, too). Personally, I didn't think of it as a big deal that you referred to the Victor's Camps as 'concentration camps', as I saw it more as a metaphore and not as if you were trying to actually compare TF's 'child abuse camps' to the Nazi extermination camps. It really worries me what became of the kids that stayed in these places for years. Where are they now, I wonder, and how are they coping in their lives? I know some have even ended their lives and I really pray the rest get the help and support they need so they don't go the same way. I believe any of you who had to go through these kind of soul-destroying experiences should really try to make sure you've got someone to talk to with some kind of professional training in how to help you process all this past trauma, so it doesn't keep haunting you for the rest of your lives. My daughter just recently completed a year of seeing a counsellor regualarly about twice a week, and she said for the first 7 months she thought it was a total waste of time. Then something shifted and it really started helping her to reprocess and clear away old thinking patterns that weren't serving her. Now she's a different person, a lot lighter and freer and able to really 'move on'. About a year after I left TF, when I was still very lost and not out of TF conditioning yet (because I still didn't know anyone on the 'outside' other than 'Live Out' Family members and part-timers), TF leadership re-instated me for a short time as a 'Live Out Reporting Home' (I think they were trying to keep me under control). And I got copies of all the DO lit that was coming out at the time. What really shocked me was when I read the 'Heavenly City School Training Seminar Notes' and the 'Battle For Japan' book. It was documenting in detail exactly how they were systematically setting up these Victor's Camps and instigating incredibly abusive treatment on you poor kids. To me that was the last straw that really got me out of TF. The last meeting I ever had with Family leadership was me reading stuff out of these books and asking them point blank, 'How can TF possibly treat their kids like this and believe it is right? What possible good could come of it? What about the poor kids?' Needless to say, I broke away from TF after that, but my memory of what these books were documenting continued to haunt me until I finally felt strong enough to speak out publicly about it a few years later. These books will be uploaded onto the xFamily site some time in the future (when the editors have got the time to scan them all). They will be useful as documentary proof of your experiences - written by the abusers themselves, no less! That's what is so incredible about this whole terrible 'social experiment gone horribly wrong' (as 60 Minutes put it). The abusers themselves have already hung themselves by documenting everything they did to you. I'm really not overly worried about 'how' TF will ultimately be brought to justice, because its already a given, as far as I'm concerned. They cannot not escape reaping what they have sowed. (reply to this comment)

From AndyH Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 07:29 (Agree/Disagree?) That is another similarity to the Nazis. They also documented everything they did thinking it would be looked back on as good, they also had this backfire on them when it was used as evidence against them. Still not fair to compare the Victor Camps to the Holocaust.(reply to this comment)

from enigma Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 18:43 (Agree/Disagree?) A good book which gives an incredible insight into the Nazi concentration camps, and one that I just read for one of my history courses, is “Survival in Auschwitz” by Primo Levi. It is his story of being captured in the twilight of the war and being sent to a camp near Auschwitz. It is a short read, but by the end it leaves one with disgust at what humans are capable of—including by a lot of those interned. (reply to this comment)

from Fish Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 17:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Sean, you pompous dipshit. Have you even been to Auswich? I think not. Quit tormenting us with your arrogant drivel. (reply to this comment)

from Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 14:44 (Agree/Disagree?) I don’t have a problem with Sean’s comparison of the Victor Camps to concentration camps. He acknowledges that no one was killed, but getting killed might have been a relief. I personally contemplated, and almost attempted, suicide several times when I was a “JETT.” Lately, I’ve been working occasionally as a substitute teacher in middle schools, and when I look at the sixth, seventh, and eighth graders (who are roughly the same age we were as JETTS), it strikes me how small, vulnerable, and young they are. When I was that same age, I wasn’t in school or even “home-schooled.” Instead, as you all know, I worked from morning until night taking care of toddlers, doing dishes, and cleaning toilets. Going out to peddle tracts and posters was considered “fun,” because at least I didn’t have to stay home and risk the wrath of some “auntie” or “uncle.” It was a miserable existence. The only thing I had to look forward to during the drudge of my continuous chores was a single movie on weekends, which I frequently missed because I had one demerit too many, usually for being “in the dumps” or “out of the spirit”—whatever that meant, or once for taking a piece of stale bread from the kitchen when I was hungry. Luckily I never had enough demerits to get beatings, but other kids did, and they were often given in public. Anyways, I just don’t see the need to jump on Sean for making that comparison. Sure, there is no real comparison between a Nazi concentration camp but when you’re at such a young and impressionable age, the kind of treatment victors received no doubt felt like one. (reply to this comment)

From Was at Victors. Thursday, February 02, 2006, 12:41 (Agree/Disagree?) Although the physical aspect can in no way compare to Aushwitz or the extermination, still the psychological impacts can be devastating and equally mind numbing. I thought during the time of victors I was filled with evil spirits, was in constant fear of thinking negative thoughts, and thought I wasn't good enough to be part of God's endtime army. I was completely brainwashed by the time Victors came along. I was literally driven to sickness during my first week there, and thought of running away and suicide many times. I wish no kids age 10 to 13 have to experience any kind of psycho-babel and religious brainwashing that we were subjected to. I tried very hard to be good, but some kids just can't be controlled and were therefore subjected to physical abuse. Such as tape, beatings to where their backsides were literally one big bruise (literally blue and black), made to have cold showers etc,,, and just plain dreadful conditions (ice inside windows, washing rags in cold water etc...) it's just something that kids in the 1st world shouldn't have to endure. It made me tough though, but in some ways terribly cold and mind-numb to have feelings to anyone. Even my partner says I am terribly cruel towards people and inconsiderate, because for years that's the way I was treated--Like trash--nothing special. It's disheartening but it's made me very tough, and unbending. My head is forever bloody and unbowed!(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 15:15 (Agree/Disagree?) None of what you mentioned above is unfamiliar to me: I remember all of it clearly. I remember contemplating suicide. I rmember the drudgery, the exploitation, the abuse, the deprivation. I'm having to deal with all of this now. It is a struggle, and it gets me down. There are people in those memories I downright hate. Now, let's put that into perspective; we as a social group were never targetted for extermination as a matter of state policy; the food may not have always been good, but no one I know (do you know anyone?) died of starvation; the clothes weren't great, but we were clothed; I don't know anyone who died of exposure, or overwork -sure, sometimes we might have felt like it, but that's not the same thing; We were certainly subject to physical abuse, but no one was ever beaten to death. This might seem like pedantry, but I have reasons for supporting this perspective: firstly, there is something regarding the historical legacy of the holocaust which must be regarded as sacred, since there is no real instance of genocide (repeat: genocide) that comes close in terms of scale. Even Cambodia never reached the same excess;Secondly, there is to my mind a real danger that we should begin to exaggerate the extent of our own suffering. I am not dismissing what you went through, but that suffering is not unprecedented or unique. (reply to this comment)

From dan Saturday, March 17, 2007, 04:24 (Agree/Disagree?) so we got spanked. there are a lot of boarding schools and boy's schools that were much worse. We didn't die, we were fed and now we still have wits enough to not be involved anymore.... many, many children have had it much worse than us. (reply to this comment)

From Joe spanked regularly at 15 Saturday, March 17, 2007, 12:31 (Agree/Disagree?) This argument is illogical. Should a person being molested by their father so so what because others that are sold as prostitutes had it "much worse?"(reply to this comment)

From cheeks Saturday, February 04, 2006, 15:28 (Agree/Disagree?) I would have to say in many ways it is very similar. If you read the book written by Corrie Ten Boom who stayed in a camp for two years you could see how similar it actually was. The hours they made them labor the shortage of food and medical care. I think the thing the Family lacked was the gas chamber. We are not talking about the regular Family homes but the Victor camps, places that were set up to break our spirits. Once the shepherds found out they enjoyed inflicting pain they were reluctant to let us go. Where else were they going to find victims for their little games? They enjoyed the control much like a rapist enjoys the control over his victim.(reply to this comment)

From joyfromgreece Friday, February 03, 2006, 11:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Just wanted to say in response: "....no-one was ever beaten to death" I remember far too many times feeling uterly helpless and crying by my brothers cot telling him to: "please dont cry loud...please dont cry its Quiet Time". I would then watch one of the adults come up to his cot, pick him up and beat the shit out of him that he would suffocate on his own crying, stop breathing and turn blue. He would then be rushed out of the room a limpless/ lifeless 8 month old baby. Scared shitless I was then taken to the table by another adult, and be beaten the shit out of for being upstairs when I shouldnt have been, scared everytime it was my turn to die after my brother. All I can say is thank God he survived by some sort of miracle, he's now fifteen years old, knows nothing of his past, but everytime something angers or upsets him I get haunted by those images. To me at 9 years old it was like watching someone "being beaten to death" or scared that it was my turn to be "beaten to death". (reply to this comment)

From Big Sister Saturday, February 04, 2006, 19:01 (Agree/Disagree?) I understand your brother has no words with which to remember what happened to him but there is some part of him that does remember. I hope you can watch over him and some day, when he needs to understand himself better, you can tell him what happened, remind him he has survived and will have a good life better than those evil people who beat babies because they knew they could get away with it!(reply to this comment)

From joyfromgreece Monday, February 06, 2006, 14:10 (Agree/Disagree?) You are right, I'm sure some part of him remembers, the same way I am haunted by flashbacks and the sickness of the nature of manipulation. I just pray he, alongside with my other brothers and sisters dont remember anything. Thats probably what my parents are praying for, which is why we NEVER talk about it. I will always watch out for them, they are what is most important in my life. You know although they thought that they could get away with it, and might still feel like they have, I believe one day that they all will suffer for what they have done. Whether inflicted by the same children they abused or not. When they come to face God, he'll deny them as his CHILDREN.(reply to this comment)

From AndyH Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 17:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually, to be perfectly pedantic, the term "concentration camp" would be perfectly accurate. The camps used by the Nazis were actually "extermination Camps". They only called them "concentration camps" to decieve the public and the people they were sending there that they were merely a way of "concentrating" certain people into certain areas. The Family "concentrated" troublesome children into "Victor Camps", camps designed to meet their desires to reform them. This of course does not mean that TFI abuse was equivalent to the Holocaust, despite minor similarities.(reply to this comment)

From placebo Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 14:58 (Agree/Disagree?) A point is though when telling an uncle of mine about the badges of shame we would wear at victor camps and/or when on silence restriction"please don't talk with me, I'm learning lessons") his first reply was: "Like the Nazi's making the Jews wear a patch before WW2"(reply to this comment)

from SeanSwede Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:55 (Agree/Disagree?) Baxter. I`m sorry to break this to you, but you are such a complainer sometimes about other peoples articles. No hard feelings. :) (reply to this comment)

From AndyH Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 07:11 (Agree/Disagree?) A complainer? Could we try to overcome TF vocabulary please? That's so fucking creepy. In the real world complaining is a good thing, its how problems are identified.(reply to this comment)

From Oddman Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 11:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Brother AndyH, that comment was absolutely out of the spirit. Please stop murmuring about Sean's vocab. He's given a lot of thot to this subject, and needs to share his heart. lack of understanding is your major NWO AndyH. You should pray for the holy spirit's elixer to help you be more understanding toward your brothers. With the Lord's help you can overcome this weakness. Amen? Now go chalk up a demerit for murmuring, read the Heaven's girl gangbang sequence, then write your OHR. After that you may join us in devotions and inspirations, where you can participate in bottlebreaking Father David and Everybodies riding, and really burn your bra. Please finish your JJT by 10:00 so we can go DTD. If you aren't finished by then, you have to join the Outreach team, because you have no Talent for busking. Just watch out for the Romans around the station. Don't waste time with the systemy goats. If you pass out all your LIT (chock full of strange truths) by 14:00 we might have time for GETOUT. On the way back, we need to stop by a king's place to pick up provisioned food and share some of God's love. We also need to drop off a Kiddie Viddie at a sheepy contact's house. Back at our Home, I have a Teamwork meeting and have to preview Bambi so I know which parts to fast forward, and what parts to dicuss at Pow-wow. After the video, we'll have loving Jesus time, read some Mo Letters full of Golden Seeds, and really claim the power of the keys. How does that sound for a power-packed day for Jesus? Hallelujah. Amen?? GBAKYAYCFFJ. Die Daily, Hooooooollllyyyyy Ghhooooost!!! POWER!!!(reply to this comment)

From AndyH Thursday, February 02, 2006, 11:51 (Agree/Disagree?) That is pretty impressive. Its sad that I will never be able to forget that shit. I still remember how to make every sandwich at MacDonald's. Maybe I would have a better memory if I could clear out old useless crap. Would that I were a computer. I would right-click on the Bible Scriptures folder and select delete all files and sub-folders. (reply to this comment)

From night_raven Wednesday, February 01, 2006, 21:20 (Agree/Disagree?) laughing my ass off! (reply to this comment)

From SeanSwede Sunday, January 29, 2006, 14:51 (Agree/Disagree?) LOL, LOL. That was the funniest thing that I have read in a long time. Thanks for that one!!(reply to this comment)

From AndyH Thursday, February 02, 2006, 11:48 (Agree/Disagree?) I think it makes fun of you as much as me. "Have a good laugh at yourself it will do you good."(reply to this comment)

From Aaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 11:57 (Agree/Disagree?) ha ha ha ha ha, Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasp, Aaaaaaa ha ha ha ha! That must be a record! Fucking dying here!(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 13:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Sean, do you only assume that when you write an article, that people will compliment or agree with you? I will criticise when I feel that criticism is warranted and/or legitimate, as I do in this instance. Four to six MILLION people died in the holocaust. What you suffered in the victor programme is absolutely nothing in comparison to that.I may have made the same criticism the last time you posted this article (why did you feel the necessity to repost?), although I do not recall doing so, and if someone else made the same comparison, i would do it again. We all have issues that haunt us and may haunt us for the rest of our lives. In this we are certainly not unique. There are people in this world who have suffered considerably more than we have, and although that does not diminish the pain we ourselves must bear, we need never be so presumptuous as to overstate our own plight needlessly. (reply to this comment)

From GetReal Thursday, February 02, 2006, 23:20 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't think it matters that Zerby and Mo didn't kill thousands of millions of people . that was NOT what he said.if you compare the tactics of Hitler, COG and basically every other brutal dictatorship they are in fact very similar. If they had the power to kill people they would have. they brutally beat , rapped a mentally weak young woman, after documenting it, they published it as a guide on how to raise young children. the only difference is they don't and never will have the power. Can we please refrain from defending bad people at least at this web site. big fucking thank you.(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Friday, February 03, 2006, 04:50 (Agree/Disagree?) I am a history student, so I take comparisons of this matter seriously. I apologise if my argument offends you. If a comparison of tactics is in order, then a degree of perspective is necessary. There are similiarities in the order of tactics used by both the Nazis and the COG. These comparisons in my opinion do not extend to the genocide perpetuated by the German state against those it saw as non-desirable entities. Firstly, the motivation was entirely adverse. The brutality that i experienced in the family was not entirely different from that which I experienced in my first two years in the army. Unlike the political and racial minorities that were targetted for extermination by the National Socialist party, we as the second generation were not pariahs, but the intended mediums of their cause. Therefore, what we experienced may more fairly be compared perhaps to the experience of reprogrammed individuals who suffered in the Stalinist or Maoist regimes. The Family did not kill people not because it did not have the power to do so 9in my opinion, it very surely did, and could have in the imposed environment of fear and fanatical obedience covered its tracks very comprehensively - as they have their legacy of abuse). They did not do so because they did not see such a course of action as beneficial to their interests. Their actions towards us, their children, were brutal and destructive, but they were motivated by a misguided sense of paternality; they believed that they were enlightening and indeed freeing us from what they saw to be counter-productive thought and action. They were misguided in their desire to help us. I do not defend the cirminals. There is no more forgiveness in me for the uncontrite misguided offender than there is for the deliberate and indifferent offender. I have not forgiven them nor will i forgive them until I am witness to concrete and indisputable evidence of their repentance. But what drives me to hate them, and to refrain from pardon, is an emotional response. This basic emotional response must never become the platform for my judgement. If we are ever to overcome the legacy of Berg, we must be able to pursue an objective course of thought and action, else we remain potential victims to his very failings. Te product of the crime should serve to provide the measure of the condemnation, but it should never negate assessment of the cause. (reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Friday, February 03, 2006, 02:43 (Agree/Disagree?) So, you consider fear of spankings and unwanted sexual advances is on par with fear of a clinically methodical catalogue of torture to death, specifically designed to probe the boundaries of human endurance (in addition to the rape, displacement, and knowledge that your whole family is undergiong the same)? We're not letting anyone off the hook here, just saying that in the 'real world' - which you so profess to represent - there is a major difference!(reply to this comment)

From Friday, February 03, 2006, 05:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Isn't there a way to point out the differences, which were very real, without blanket minimizing of what some children went through in the Family? "Spankings and unwanted sexual advances" does not begin to truthfully describe what some endured (I won't get into details of how the "sexual advances" I went through were more like a period of child sexual servitude). Please note that I said "some." I will not claim everyone experienced it. Just as some lost more than others in the Holocaust, though, some lost more than others in the Family. Baxter made some extremely informative aboservations above, noting that the Family wanted us to be the means of their goal. I will note though, Baxter, that as one who rebelled, I experienced being a "pariah" as well. Thus, I might tweak your statement with the qualification that you were only a pariah if you did not bend to their wishes. As a pariah ("problem case," "rotten apple" etc.) I experienced losing the love of what would in the world have been my "family" -- parents, siblings. --Who I did not even live with much of the time (and had no choice as to where I was sent or not). I was alone in the world. If you grew up in the cult of the 70's-80's, you were also told that it was all ending pretty soon and you would be likely to be martyred. Of course there were differences. One of the differences is that if you had been living a normal life, you knew that the enemy soldiers were just that, your enemies. You had something good that you were taken from. Also, if leaders wished to throw me off a cliff (like dear "Mama" Zerby wished could be done with Mene), I have not yet been told by whoever heard it. Maybe some people chafe at the observation that "the Holocaust was worse for its victims than child abuse in the cult" because we have heard so much from certain quarters about how so many people in the "system" went through much, much worse and we have nothing to complain about. I don't know what is accomplished by pitting human suffering vs. Human suffering. "Runner up: Rwanda! Second runner up: Sarajevo!" It sometimes seems to me as well that people who are "used to" the Family and its sordid history are quite adept at being complacent about child abuse that horrifies "normies." Chilling, really, at times. Also, while I can't really say what the cult was like after I left, I do hear that it was forced to mellow some of its worst practices, so it may have been different growing up even a few years younger. When the cult set its sights on someone, they also probed the "boundaries of human endurance." Don't take it from me, take it from their apologist whose book they recommend. The jacket of Chacellor's "Life in the Family" says it "reveals a profoundly religious group that has tested the limits of the human experience." (reply to this comment)

From Baxter Friday, February 03, 2006, 06:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Once again, i am not dismissing the very real suffering experience by the second generation (of which I am a member,and most of which I remember clearly). Nor am I reflecting the propaganda enforced upon us as children. but comparisons of suffering are absolutely vital, in my opinion, for the sake of context. Justice, if such an entity is to or indeed can exist beyond the confines of theory, must impose on us that while recognising the crime, we do not exaggerate it. I know I am repeatimg myself. I will simply say that if we are ever to overcome the legacy of the Family, the nwe must strive to be better than them. To me, this means aspiring to objectivity and a strong personal sense of justice. I don't believe in political or social justice (and the evidence for my disbelief exists far beyond the confines of COG experience), but I firmly believe in justice in a personal context. Justice is not revenge, nor is it even exclusive to retribution. It is the sense of fair and just assessment that we were denied. It is the priviledge that all of us who have left have fought and struggled for. Perhaps it is fair to say that those of us who have (Rest In Peace) fallen in the process have died in the pursuit of that struggle. To my mind it is not fair to their memories not to at least try to pursue an objective assessment. In doing otherwise we demean bot htheir suffering and the suffering of those to whom we make ill-considered comparison. (reply to this comment)

From Friday, February 03, 2006, 09:27 (Agree/Disagree?) IMO there is a clear distinction between exaggerating and being less than objective. You can give true, unexaggerated facts that may not be "objective" because they are stated from your viewpoint or because they are not devoid of your personal emotions, but that does not mean you have to exaggerate. I wonder if it is really the survivors' duty to be objective. If there were any authority dealing out justice for what we suffered, I agree they would need to be objective, but since when is objectivity demanded of a crime victim? That is the job of a judge or jury, not of the victim nor the victim's advocates. Maybe by "objective" we understand different things. I do think its fine if any survivor wants to be objective. I do not, however, agree that if a survivor is unable or does not feel bound to be objective, that makes them less credible...unless they are exaggerating or otherwise being untruthful -- again, I believe that objectivity and truthfulness are two different concepts. It is very hard to manage emotion linked to trauma (in some cases, might what appears to be objectivity actually be dissociation?).(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Friday, February 03, 2006, 09:58 (Agree/Disagree?) In its most literal 'objective' would indicate a position from which the topic at hand is merely an object bearing no emotional or personal prejudice. That, however, is a near impossibility, as the very nature of an opinion is that of a personal prejudice - the distinction typically being where that prejudice does not predispose to one side of a discussion over another. In common usage, 'objective' is typically used to define an even-handed viewpoint which neither fully agrees or disagrees with each side. As you rightly pointed out, it is not typically expected of a victim to be 'objective', in either sense the word, however, it is a necessary part of achieving a fair and mature resolution to injustice - not to mention the intellectual process.(reply to this comment)

From Aaaahh Friday, February 03, 2006, 13:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Like clear waters to a thirsty soul, the word of NeOublie has come down from the mount and answered the people!(reply to this comment)

From Mr.T Friday, February 03, 2006, 14:26 (Agree/Disagree?) TO NAMELESS CRAPTALKER!!! http://www.movingon.org/editimage.asp?ID=2321 (reply to this comment)

From Mr.T Friday, February 03, 2006, 14:30 (Agree/Disagree?) SORRY SUCKAH, WHAT I MEANT WAS... http://www.movingon.org/gallery2.asp?ID=2320 (reply to this comment)

From AndyH Friday, February 03, 2006, 07:11 (Agree/Disagree?) "if we are ever to overcome the legacy of the Family, then we must strive to be better than them." Very true. It is for this reason that acts of violence against them are wrong, although they may be justified, if we are willing to go to lengths that they are not then we are worse than them, even though they started it.(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Friday, February 03, 2006, 05:48 (Agree/Disagree?) My comment was deliberately a broad generalisation for the specific purpose of highlighting the differences - however those differences do not in any way make one 'worse' or 'better'. They do make it inappropriate to classify both under the same terminology, which is the only point I've been making right through this thread. This is not an exercise of 'my abuse was worse than yours' - I do not see the use of, nor even care to attempt, grading the respective sufferings of individuals. Two people could endure identical experiences and react differently to them, and similarly the effect on different individuals of very different experiences can be similar. On that basis, I do not doubt that some individuals affected by either the Holocaust or an upbringing inTF may state similar reactions - however the acts themselves were notably distinct by just about any measure, it is this that makes such comparisons inaccurate and a disservice to those who endured both!(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Thursday, February 02, 2006, 12:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually, many more than 6 million people died in the REAL holocaust – which was the entirely of WW2, not just a few concentration camps. The number of Jews that were ritually murdered was more likely in the hundreds of thousands. That’s beside the point, though. I’ve never been able to get all the way through a book written by a survivor of the REAL holocaust, but I agree that the worst anyone experienced in TF was like a pleasure cruise compared to what people went through during WW2 in Europe. (reply to this comment)

From Baxter Thursday, February 02, 2006, 15:49 (Agree/Disagree?) The term 'Holocaust' is an originally Jewish term; it means consuming fire' or something to that extent. Emotionally, it was intended as a direct reference to what happened specifically to the Jews. In fairness it must be predominantly a reference to the extent of destruction and atrocious behaviour specifically of the Germans outside of the accepted horror or atrocity of war. Otherwise we could include the murder of German refugees at Dresden, or the decision to extend strategic bombing to civilian centres for the purpose of breaking morale. I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing, Wolf. I fully accept your argument that the real atrocity was the War in it's entirety. Of course, whether or not millions of Jews died is an undemonstrable statistic, and depends on when and to what extent the gas chambers actually ever became operational. I personally agree with Eric Hobsbawm who puts the figure at 3 to 4 million. (reply to this comment)

From AndyH Thursday, February 02, 2006, 12:21 (Agree/Disagree?) You should check out "Maus" by Art Spiegelman, its the biography of his father drawn by him in the form of a graphic novel. The Nazis are cats and the Jews are mice. But don't let that fool you, it spares no graphic detail. Its by far the best Holocaust account I've ever read. You won't find it under Graphic Novels though, its in biographies. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679748407?v=glance(reply to this comment)

From SeanSwede Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 03:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Im sorry but you still just dont seem to get it. Try thinking about it again. Are you just offended cause you happen to be a jew yourself? Whatever!(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 05:29 (Agree/Disagree?) What the hell difference does it make if I am a Jew or not? I am first and foremost a human being. As such I try to countenance and confront the plight and suffering of humanity from that perspective. It should be absolutely irrelevent whether or not I am a Jew. Firstly, Sean, you come across as far too absorbed in your own opinion to be truly (as you have previously stated) 'free' of delusion or ideological restriction; you are self-assured that if someone doesn't agree with you, then they just haven't thought hard enough or aren't as intelligent as you, which isn't an intelligent attitude to espouse. Secondly, this was intended as a criticism ofyour prose, not your personality; I haven't seen you in years and you could be a very different person from the one that I knew. We shouldn't always let our egos take precedence at the presence of criticism, else we fail to grow. I accept that I too am arrogant and egotistical, before you remind me. I'm sorry to get off on what may seem like a small and trivial issue, but as I have stated above, I find such comparisons to be dangerous: one the one hand, the comparison is to no less than a very monumental epoch in recent history, and one which gravity cannot and must not be undermined; on the other hand (and this is to my mind much more immediatley crucial) we stand in very real danger of onverestimating our own suffering in terms of scale. By all means confront and exorcise your demons, but this should not entail exaggerating them. What we suffered as children was awful, but there are millions of people in the world who have had it considerably worse than us. We must be mindful of this crucial fact if we are ever to accept our existence in the normal world. There has to be a sense of perspective. If you can't objectively confront the suffering of other people (including the Jews) - in a manner other than merely accepting superficially that they suffered, then how can you really expect other people to confront or accept the suffering and pain of your own experience? (reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 03:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Sean, I was going to keep out of this one, but then you start throwing around racial discrimination to support your miappropriation of history! There is no comparison between the scale and horrific nature of the torture and murder carried out in the Nazi Concentration Camps and what was experienced in TF's 'Victor Camps' and other 'Teen Training Programmes'. This is not to detract from what was suffered by yourself and your peers, but melodramatising accounts through exaggerated comparisons serves no worthwhile purpose, and is quite simply an insult to the millions who suffered Nazi (and other) ethnic cleansing.(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 05:24 (Agree/Disagree?) *misappropriation(reply to this comment)

from SeanSwede Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:54 (Agree/Disagree?) There now I edited it so that simple minds like yours won´t have a hard time getting the point. :) (reply to this comment)

from SeanSwede Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:49 (Agree/Disagree?) ah come on guys. This is only the second time that I post this again. This is very important for the rest of the world read not only for you guys. I already know that you have read it a couple of times. Just dont klick on it. Its for the ones who haven`t read it yet. Simple as that. I know that the media are in this site. thats why I do a review once in awhile. You can do the same if you like. Obviously the admin lets it slide or they wouldnt let it be put out in the first place. Right? (reply to this comment)

From vixen Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 13:31 (Agree/Disagree?) I think maybe you could go about it in a different way - Reposting things is nothing more than a waste of space, IMO. Couldn't you just have posted another comment on the original article so that it would have been flagged up on the newcontent page again? (reply to this comment)

from Phoenixkidd Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 06:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Why do you keep posting this same article Sean? You have got to learn to move on. I attended Victors for 9 months. It was awful and I was under extreme duress during most of my time there, especially the first 4 months. But in some ways there were some good times too, I didn't miss much all I would've been doing is some stupid childcare or outreach job anyway, in some ways it was nice not to worry about money and just waste my time away. (reply to this comment)

From The Cult Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 17:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Thanks for sticking up for us brother.(reply to this comment)

From Joey Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 07:22 (Agree/Disagree?) The writer is trying to say that it wasn't any worse than the shit he/she would have had to contend with in any home across the world. If you call that support then go bathe yourself in it bro. Here, there and everywhere, your doctrine of pure evil was the same. Joey(reply to this comment)

from Baxter Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 01:36 (Agree/Disagree?) Sean, I imagine Victor camp was bad (I escaped that one), but however bad it was, you cannot and should not make flippant comparisons to Auschwitz. Millions of people were murdered at Auschwitz; you got demerits, and a paddle to your bare arse. Comparatively speaking, big fucking deal. It isn't right to flipantly compare yourself to that level of suffering unless you actually suffered something that equivalates. To do so demeans the historical memory and the significance of their suffering. (reply to this comment)

From Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 00:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Demerits and a paddle to the bare arse in a context of no hope, no control over one's present nor one's destiny, and being denigrated does not call for being flippant IMO. I have read books like "Survival in Auschwitz," and I agree that are are major qualitative and qualitative differences (duh!) between the Holocaust and what "we" suffered. However, there are many things that eerily resonate when I read books like that. I think that the inner experience of a human being when stripped of circumstances conducive to dignity shares many characteristics. May I also point out that there seems to be a continuum of what people suffered in The Family. The repeated sexual violation of young children (although the girls seem to discuss it more), the Mene-style treatment, and certain experiences of severe abuse are certainly not reducible to "demerits and a paddle to the bare arse," especially when you consider that the survivor did not know at the time if there was any light at the end of the tunnel. Some of us also experienced ourselves and/or saw loved ones experience treatment by Family leadership that indicated that if we were not going to go along with their plan, they didn't care what happened to us. So there's a big difference right there. Nazis targeted Jews for death. We, on the other hand, only had value as slaves while alive -- however, once we revolted, our death was of no concern to TF.(reply to this comment)

From SeanSwede Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 11:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Havent we already been over this Baxter? I seem to remember you making a similair comment last year about this and I gave you an answer and changed some stuff.(reply to this comment)

From steam Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 07:04 (Agree/Disagree?) I just finished the book "Night" by Elie Wiesel. It was a very wrenching account of the horrors. However the fact that so many were being slaughtered obviously sets it apart, but the day to day realities if you were not chosen in a "selection" (what happened before you were lead off to die), were similar miserable drudgery, although the food was undoubtedly worse mainly because there was so little of it. In other words if you were not slaughtered (of course you cannot discount the psycological dimension of seeing the horrors and never knowing what is next for you) aside from the near starvation level of sustenance the day to day life was just plain miserable work etc. So aspects may have some similarity.(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, February 02, 2006, 13:58 (Agree/Disagree?) In my opinion the key characteristic of such miserable drudgery and work you refer to is that it is done at the orders of an oppressive authority, which gets any benefit of your work, and who controls every aspect not only of your work but of every other component of your daily life. Most of us in the world have to work hard for a living, but at least we get paid and make the choices about what to do with it, and are not subject to the whims of our boss in every aspect of our lives and future. Just the fact of being subject to such an authority, entailing a total lack of control over one's destiny (outside of revolt), is a fact that makes otherwise bearable work a wasteland of indignity.(reply to this comment)