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Getting Through : In Remembrance
Notice regarding Ricky's (Davidito) death | from Latest News - Monday, January 10, 2005
accessed 16915 times Following is the news being posted by the Family regarding Ricky's (Davidito) recent death: 
The Family International is sad to announce the recent death of Ricky Rodriguez, (son of Maria David, who with her husband is the administrative and spiritual overseer of The Family International), and Angela Smith, Family member of over 30 years. Ricky (1975-2005) committed suicide after taking Angela's life. The tragic circumstances surrounding their untimely deaths have brought much grief and heartbreak to Ricky's mother and relatives, as well as Angela's family.
Ricky withdrew from The Family fellowship in 2000 in order to pursue his education and other interests. Although he departed on good terms, he later became estranged from his mother and sister.
In these moments of tragedy, Ricky's family draws comfort from the timeless promises of the Bible, knowing that he and Angela have passed into the realm of eternal justice and peace. As our dear Lord promised, “I am the Resurrection, and the Life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die.” (John 11:25). We wish to express our heartfelt condolences to the families of both Angela and Ricky. |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from Penny Lane
Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 00:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
My children and I were saddened to hear of His death...and I always felt sorry for him, I thought it was alittle weird the way they lived with Berg and all the women and lust....and when Mo and Maria started writing the Davidito letters and started going off with itching ears and false doctrines... our family slowly started seeing the fruits of it...families torn apart...without natural affection...children molested by people using the letters written by David Berg to prey on inocent children....the milstone was getting bigger and bigger...we escaped....of course they tried to condemn us....No condemnation in Christ Jesus though....Yipee....thank God...
I wish Rick could have had guidance to truly avenge with the truth and help all the people out of the group.by his testimony...I am sure he suffered alot of emotional pain...my children still are healing...so many are deceived to believe Berg's fables.....I know the Lord is merciful and I pray this tradgedy will make many search out the truth again...and that this group will disband and the inocent children's parents will read the Bible again....It is just another confirmation of the bad fruit of David Brandt Berg...and Maria or whatever name she uses now....blind leading the blind...I pray Maria's heart will be brought back to the truth...Sad the Lord had to allow this to try to reach her...it would be music to let the Lords people go, so they can worship in Spirit and truth again...without the Lord's over God's heritage.
(reply to this comment)
| from purplefly24
Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 20:25
  (Agree/Disagree?)
Upon hearing the tragic news about the murder/suicide that occurred from the hands of Ricky really made me think about the “organization” in a whole new perspective. In what I have heard about the infamous life of Ricky was that he was a child with no identity or normalization growing up. Ricky has had a lot of animosity towards his mother (Zerby) because of the distress that she put on him as a child. Ricky talks about his mother being very distance and “a matter a fact” with him instead of raising him like a “son.” As a child he had to feel an enormous amount of psychological trauma due to the fact that his life was recorded and documented as a book for everyone in the organization to see and “emulate.” He had a huge amount of pressure because he was the “son” of the organizations leaders. I couldn’t image how he must have felt a young child growing up being treated in a way where he was exposed to variety of things that young children should never be exposed to. I don’t in any way justify what he did, however we have to take into account his “bizarre” life and the amount of “inner pain” that he must have felt, but couldn’t express, until he left the organization and started trying to regain his “lost identity.” Ricky knew intimate things about Grant and Zerdy that probably a lot of people don’t know, that could be why he was living in condemnation(when he left) because he felt it was his “calling” to breakup the organization that controlled and brain washed so many people. Whenever I talk to certain people about Ricky, they all describe him as weird, quiet, and withdraw…which is very normal for someone who is struggling to “find themselves” and was dieing for people to treat him “normal” and not like the son of the Zerby. In coming to understand him, I really feel for him, and everything he went through because it is nearly impossible to actually know what was truly going on in his head. He went through the three coping stages of neurosis where as a child he was compliant (Moving towards people), then as he got older he became withdrawn (Moving away from people) to try to escape his pain and inner misery, from there he went into the aggressive stage (Moving against people) where he started reacting aggressively in his letters towards the organization and especially his hatred towards his mother. Nevertheless, he was captivated by “inner demons” where he made a choice instead of getting professional help and working through his psychological problems, he decided to take matters into his own hands and commit murder. I feel for him, because I know if he would have gotten help and especially some closure from his mother things might have turned out very differently.
(reply to this comment)
| from newsclips
Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 05:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
The Release from Pain
(AP, December 22, 1997) A father mourns a son slain by a drug addict. A daughter turns her back on a violent, alcoholic mother. A husband thinks of killing himself or the wife who abandoned him.
A minister, a mother, and an attorney - ordinary people who lived in unendurable pain.
Until they stopped it with an extraordinary act: forgiveness.
They are part of a national trend reflected in an increase in religious revivals, mass movements such as Promise Keepers, and best-selling books extolling the virtues of forgiveness. But their stories reveal that the road to forgiveness is different for each individual.
None forgave easily or quickly. Each got there in different stages, sometimes even when their tormentors were unrepentant. But none regrets it.
"The anger has totally gone away," said Jim, the newly divorced man. "God had a plan. I still don't understand the plan. But it's got to be something good, after all He's put me through."
---
The Rev. Walter Everett's shock at the murder of his son, 24-year-old Scott, turned to rage when the killer plea-bargained his way to a five-year sentence.
When the killer, a drug addict named Michael Carlucci, was sentenced, he said that although they must sound like empty words to the Everetts, he was sorry for what he had done.
Everett's friends dismissed the remorse as a ploy for leniency, but Everett himself, a United Methodist minister in Hartford, Conn., was moved.
On the anniversary of his son's death, he composed a letter to Carlucci in which he talked of his family's suffering - "the pain is almost unbearable at times" - and said he could not accept one person having so little regard for another.
And then he wrote: "Although words seem so trivial in some ways (yet they are all that we have now), I do accept your apology, and, as hard as these words are to write, I add: I forgive you."
Those words, the bearded minister would later recall, were a turning point. "I felt a burden lifted from my shoulders. It was the beginning of healing for me."
But it was not the end. His marriage would fail; his wife could not understand his forgiveness. When he went to visit Carlucci a few months after writing the letter, he was enraged anew to find that the murderer had already been transferred from a maximum to a medium-security prison.
"Healing doesn't come immediately. It comes in stages. It's a process that goes on through one's life," Everett said.
At that first meeting, Everett was making small talk about Carlucci's weight when the prisoner, who had never been forgiven by anyone before, reached over and embraced him. Both broke down in tears.
Everett and Carlucci would become friends. It was Everett's testimony that helped Carlucci win early release from prison, and it was Everett whom Carlucci would visit while on prison furlough. In 1994, Everett officiated at Carlucci's wedding. They still see each other regularly.
Everett will never forget his murdered son. But if you are going to love your enemies, as Christ commanded, you first have to forgive them, Everett believes.
"When I look at Mike, I don't see a man who injured my son," Everett says. "I see a man who is forever changed by God. And I celebrate that."
---
When Kate's husband told her he had invited her mother to stay with them for Christmas, Kate was furious.
When Kate was growing up in poverty in a small Canadian town, her alcoholic mother regularly beat her while in a drunken stupor and left her alone to care for six younger siblings.
No amount of bruises on Kate's face the following morning would elicit any remorse from her mother, who accused her daughter of lying when confronted with the truth.
When Kate started her own family at age 20, she never looked back. But after the birth of their fourth child, her husband made the Christmas attempt at reconciliation.
The visit was a formal one. Kate sensed her mother was often on the verge of telling her something, but she was determined not to give her mother the opportunity. Kate refused to accompany her to the airport with her husband.
"It was just at the moment of her walking out the door, and she said, 'Can you ever forgive all those years?' And that was all I needed to hear," said Kate, now 48, but still in tears as she relives the moment. "That point was the beginning of a healing process that was an absolute miracle."
Kate had found peace in a Hutterite religious community, where all seek to live like the early Christians, but hatred had burdened her. Given the chance, she discovered she wanted to forgive.
"It only took me about 30 seconds to respond to it, because in a way this was what I had been struggling with for years," she said.
Still, forgiveness came slowly. It took her years to trust her mother to babysit her own children.
"The first time she ever genuinely wanted to hug me, afterward I just tensed up because the physical contact before had been only violent."
Forgiving is not forgetting, and Kate would not want it any other way.
"I don't think I could ever forget," she said. Otherwise "I could not remember the miracle of forgiveness."
---
Jim was a modern-day Job, the biblical embodiment of the divine mystery of why bad things happen to good people.
When the '90s began, he had a successful law practice, kids in college or prep school, a vacation home in Vermont.
Then he lost his mother to a long illness, and his father was killed in an auto accident. His business collapsed, and he lost his house.
Two years ago his wife of 28 years threw him out with the dog.
Like Job, Jim cried to the heavens. "I blamed God. God's given me a bad set of cards. I'd be better off killing myself."
He became consumed by "pure unadulterated anger, to the point I even thought of killing her," the stocky ex-Marine told his support group of divorced and separated Catholics in Hamden, Conn.
What changed his life was prayer, and the realization, after his wife vehemently objected to court-ordered counseling sessions, that his marriage was lost. At that point, "it became very easy for me to forgive," he said.
"My anger went down by volumes that were just incredible," said Jim, 54. "It's given me a real inner peace."
He could sleep at night. The fury he carried within him was replaced by a sense of serenity. These days, when another driver cuts him off on the highway, he laughs it off.
He went around to other people, asking forgiveness for injuries he had done to them. He has a new job counseling ex-addicts.
With a smiling thumbs-up, Jim describes the point at which he knew he was a changed man: when he could be polite to his ex-wife's boyfriend, whom she brought to their son's wedding not long after the divorce.
"I know where I am," he said, "and I know where I am with God, and that's all that matters." q
News Reprint
The power of forgiveness
By Jane Lampman, The Christian Science Monitor , Januray 28, 1999
Little Earl and his mom and dad were having a terrible time. Diagnosed as hyperactive and defiant at school and at home, the redheaded seven-year-old with a sprinkle of freckles couldn't seem to control his anger. One tumultuous week it got so bad he was hospitalized for the weekend.
Six months later, Earl was much happier: He had found a new way to deal with his feelings, his parents' relationship with each other had improved, and he no longer needed the Ritalin or Prozac he was being given for hyperactivity. He began to do well in school.
Both he and his parents had found a "third way" to deal with their anger. Rather than denying or venting it, they had learned how to forgive. And their answer is one that is being explored much more widely today.
"Forgiveness has remarkable healing power in the lives of those who utilize it," says Richard Fitzgibbons, the Philadelphia psychiatrist who worked with Earl and is one of the pioneers in introducing forgiveness into the mental health field.
Whether it be small wrongs, betrayals, or great crimes and injustices, most people struggle with the resentments and grudges that can arise from being treated unfairly. And the failure of so many to deal effectively with them echoes loudly in today's school violence, high rates of divorce and domestic battering, drug and alcohol abuse, as well as in criminal acts, ethnic warfare, and terrorism.
Some see hope in the rediscovered power of forgiveness. They see its potential not only for personal life, but in community, national, and international relations. And many are practicing it.
Forgiveness is a "hot topic" now in many areas, from academic research to marital and family counseling to politics and community life. "Long considered the extra mile of mercy toward the offender that is required from a 'believer,' forgiveness is now being rediscovered as a creative human faculty for overcoming estrangement," says Lewis Smedes, professor emeritus of theology and ethics at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif., in Dimensions of Forgiveness (Templeton Foundation Press, 1998).
"Forgiveness is more than a moral imperative, more than a theological dictum. It is the only means, given our humanness and imperfections, to overcome hate and condemnation and proceed with the business of growing and loving," says Paul Coleman, a psychologist in Wappinger Falls, N.Y., whose work "was rejuvenated" when he started planting that seed with his clients.
Forgiveness has "a spiritual component," Dr. Coleman says, "a grace from God, if you will," and spirituality has only become a little more accepted in the mental health field in the last decade.
Dr. Worthington, author of To Forgive Is Human , says the key ingredient is empathy. "The degree to which a person can empathize is related strongly to the degree they can forgive." Given what is happening in the world, he adds, forgiveness "has the potential to be enormously influential" in the 21st century. Research will also soon show, he says, that it will be very healthy not just to forgive an event or a person but to have a forgiving character. q
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from childhood sucked, but...
Friday, January 14, 2005 - 13:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think this shows the dramatic end-result of not truly moving on. I think all of us went, or may still be going through, a period where we looked back on our lives up until we made that decision to leave and we realise in retrospect that pretty much every thing we we're handed was a lie (or a damn lie) and that we have no preperation for society at all etc. and as we start making our move into the world and find that all the values we we're told were important dont translate to dick, and pretty much everything we we're told to suppress or "work on" were actualy assets; that no-one gets up, has 2 hours of "word time" works for a few, has an hour "quiet time" and scheduled "get-out" etc. the real world demands that you work hard or starve, no one realy 'loves' you and even if you still believe that someone "up there" is watching out for you it doesnt mean "he's" going to ace that interview or make that sale for you; you gotta tough up and rely on yourself or you'll drown. While realising that, I think it's normal to get angry at the lack of preparation for life and the total lack of education we had, and go through a time of feeling sorry for yourself and even thinking that someone or society "owes" you some kind of debt because of the hard time you had, but you have to move on... Granted we did, and do, have it rough, and certainly 8 years in high-school and Harvard would have been way better than 8 years diaper duty and "JJT" but thats the past. I know for myself things didn't start getting better until I realized that; well my life has been pretty much a waste untill now, (thanks mom and dad) but I was strong enough to leave and now I got to be strong enough to get on and make. No amount of retrospect and self-pity is going to change the past, it was what it was, your parents didn't and dont give a shit about you, they are weak-minded religious idiots and you're not Jesus, they wont change, society doesn't give much more of a shit, there are people out there with worse stories than you have, suck it up and move on... if you dont all that negativity will fester and you'll drive yourself fucking nuts and end up like this poor dude... and the family will say "thats what happens when you turn your back on your plow" and society will say "damn another mental case"...
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|  From sick of all this crap
Sunday, January 16, 2005, 06:28
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Who the hell do you think you are to say your parents don't care about you. Well, I don't know your parents so may be they don't (tho I doubt it) but most parents I know in the Family care about their children VERY VERY much. And have very good relations with their ex-member kids too. There is so much sick crap you guys fling around, wild statements with no truth. It's so sick I can't do the subject justice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(reply to this comment) |
| | From We all live in a yellow submarine, , ,
Sunday, January 16, 2005, 19:15
(Agree/Disagree?)
Good day Mr. Sick of all this crap,
Perhaps you are one of the lucky ones, with extra great parents. Not I.
Although I haven't experienced sexual abuse, I've been labelled as demon possessed, beaten till my skin peeled, forced to dig holes in the yard for discipline, slept in the snow, and strangled unconcious by overly zealous cultists. This action was never condoned in the family, but I still think the family is responsible to some extent. Since I've left, they've never contacted me, not even for Xmas, but they did call me up when their home was about to be evicted for non-payment of rent 3 months. Care about their kids my ass. Good relations my ass. The people that had a cushy life should keep their flower power and pot to themselves and not try to speak for everyone else. I think in general the family sucks. I know one too many who live less than average lives, are illiterate, reclusive, drunkards, potheads, suicidal, phobic, and only a handful that have actually rehabilitated and succeeded. The Family's history and the current results are what I find SICK. I don't give a shit if the abuse has decreased in recent years, the family should be held responsible for their past as well. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From sarafina
Friday, January 14, 2005, 14:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
“I think this shows the dramatic end-result of not truly moving on. “ I AM SO SICK OF HEARING THIS. Moving on does not mean letting abusers get away . By this I do not mean take justice into your own hands. But out here in the real world (I know it’s hard but try to remember were not in the family anymore where criminals get off with a “apology” and a “I’m sorry, I was out of the lords will”) If you commit a criminal act like rape or child abuse or whatever, and you got away with it at the time, then eventually started a new life later on and became a priest or wtf ever. You are still accountable for the crimes you committed wither it was last year or 10yrs ago.
You have the wrong idea of what moving on is. Here in the system it is NORMAL for a victim (as part of their “moving on”) to come to terms with the abuse and abuser and not be afraid to bring them to court and demand justice. Just because you want to see your rapist, molester or child beater sent to jail DOES NOT mean you are not moving on!!
I have moved on, I have a job a house, friends. I do my best to be a good person and help those I can. I don’t focus all my attention every minute of the day on what happened to me, however I will never stop supporting and doing what I can to bring the family to court and hold them accountable for their crimes past and present. They always say in their defense “We stopped the child sex years ago; we made an announcement about it “ So fucking what! By saying you put a stop to it they are still admitting it went on, and none of those ever involved ever served time for it like they should have!(reply to this comment) |
| | From childhood sucked, but...
Friday, January 14, 2005, 15:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
by all means, do what you got to do to move on... I personally have no one I can accuse of a direct "crime" against me; (although in many societies what amounts to pure negligence on my parents part would be criminal) but, if you have someone in your past that bringing to justice for past (real) crimes would bring you closure, than by all means (as they say "more power to you" whatever that means), just dont let it hurt you or your own family (if applicable) more than it already has by not being able to let go and move on; at some point you have to look at a bad situation, swear a few times, cut your losses and move on to the next chapter.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | from interesting
Friday, January 14, 2005 - 08:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
link about name changes.
p.s credit to Investigator for find this out.
Smiths & Browns: Zerby Name Changes
Posted By: iNvesTiGatoR
Date: Thursday, 13 January 2005, at 11:56 p.m.
All these name changes can be found in the public records at:
http://www.metrokc.gov/recelec/records/index.htm
look for Order Changing Name in dropdown list. pdfs of docs are online
John PI = Samuel Charles Perfilio = Kevin Anthony Brown 10/12/93
Gabe (aka Terry Lee Martin, Jeremy Woods, John,) = Michael Timothy Brown 5/14/93
Bonnie = Kathleen Mary Fowler = Cheryl Ann Brown 6/17/93
Sue = Susan Joy Kauten = Angela Marilyn Smith 5/14/93
Karen Elva Zerby = Katherine Rianna Smith 12/4/97
Gary, Hosanna, Paul papers = Grant Cameron Montgomery = Lee Ronald Smith 11/19/96
Dito = David Moses Zerby = Richard Peter Smith (3/15/93) = Richard Peter Rodriguez 7/13/94
Peter A. Steven Douglas Kelly aka Chris Smith is not found there but there was definately a Seattle Connection.
tks. MG
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from Annie
Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 13:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
Some of us still have parents in TF. It seems so unatural that some of them are not on the side of their children who have suffered the abuse - instead they insist that we "move on" and forget everything that has happened to us. I will "forget" and "move on" once justice has been served to these people who have gotten away with this for years.
A child molester in society would be imprisoned for his crimes. "Serving the Lord" doesn't exonerate the heinous crime of child abuse. Child abuse is a crime and we want to see these criminals brought to justice. Then we will move on. How fucked up that our parents still in TF could excuse the past as a simple mistake. It's not a mistake, it IS a crime and the criminals are still at large.
(reply to this comment)
| From lisa
Sunday, January 16, 2005, 07:17
(Agree/Disagree?)
In defence of the parents sometimes it can be to hard to admit that you let your child get that hurt. It dosen't mean they don't care they're just to week to face up to what happened. Think about it,If they where to face that there was abuse, and that everything Ricky and mene says is true then they would have to admit to themselves that the last twenty years or so of their lives, and all their hopes and dreams have been a lie. I'm sure that would be a very hard thing to face, so please a little less condemnation and a little more understanding.(reply to this comment) |
| | from silver
Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 10:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
Last night I cried while thinking of what has passed and thinking of Ricky. Not Ricky the man and definitely not Ricky the murderer, but the small boy whose life we followed growing up.
All I could think of was how much pain he must have felt and the anger that drove him to do what he did. New tears appeared every time his little helpless face came to mind and all the people involved in tormenting, twisting and torturing him and thereby involved in his ill-fated end.
Somehow that little boy symbolized all of our childhoods, or indeed the lack of them. I guess that when Hamlet said we would 'rather bear those ills we have, then fly to others that we know not of', there were some ills he just couldn't fathom.
So, while most of us will try and find peace right here, as far as a plan B goes, I don't think its half bad.
Good luck in the 'undiscovered country' Ricky. May you find there what eluded you throughout your short life.
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| | | | | | | from Aita
Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 09:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
I found this after some research.
"The Family has been particularly susceptible to such charges and has historically been targeted by critics because of their liberal attitudes toward sexuality, although these attitudes and practices have not remained static over the years. This liberal attitude toward sexuality, along with the commitment to communal living, has been sufficient to cause The Family a great deal of trouble over the years. Moreover, some critics have suggested that the liberal attitude toward sex has not been restricted to adults but has involved sexual relationships between adults and children. In 1993, the American media has highlighted these charges in several news stories involving children being removed from homes around the world and adults being charged with sexual abuse. The basis for these charges lies in the testimony of ex- members who report that they were sexually abused as children in The Family. As supporting evidence, these ex-members frequently cite The Story of Davidito , typically referred to as the Davidito Book, which is a work describing the early life of David, the adopted son of a founder and leader, David Berg, and the natural son of Berg's wife, Maria. Critics suggest that this book is a manual for sexual abuse of young children. It is worth noting that in all cases in which children have been removed from homes of The Family around the world, no evidence for sexual abuse has been found. The Davidito book does relate David's early witnessing of sexual behavior and encouragement to explore his own sexuality, and while these experiences would be characterized as sexually abusive or neglectful by most child abuse experts, there is no report of his having been actively molested or abused by adults. Moreover, there is no evidence of long-term negative effects on David. The first author, a clinical child psychologist with thirty years of experience, recently administered a psychological evaluation to David, who is now nineteen, and found him to be a bright, well-adjusted, and emotionally strong young man."
From Psycological Assesment of Children in The Family
Lawrence Lilliston
Department of Psychology
Oakland University
and Gary Shepherd
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Oakland University
I wonder if now they consider this "evidence of long-term negative effects on David".
(reply to this comment)
| from Jordan
Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 09:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
There is a lot more than sexual abuse the family is guilty of. Im sure a number of people will agree with this.
(reply to this comment)
| from Haunted
Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 07:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
Question: does anyone know of a good way to remove white-out? I have a lot of 'purged' Family books with only white-out covering the most damning text. Thanks!
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | From
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 08:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
My suggestion: 1. May be you know the brand of white-out, makes it easier, if not, go to a store with a variety of white
outs.Usually the thinner, which evaporates later, should be
mentioned.If they happen to be different, then start with the
common one; try to get a little bottle of that liquid in a
pharmacy (?).Apply something first on letters at the first pages, to see whether it would react with it.If not, then apply it for a first test, may be getting a bit of tissue
soaked with the thinner (not too much!!) & let it react.Only if the result is satisfying, you could proceed.The liquids
are not very conducive to health, breathing them in; airing out is important therefore.Otherwise, the authorities still can use the book or would give advise.(reply to this comment) |
| | from Badnews
Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 07:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
To Daniel may be if you have communication with the authorities you could also inform them that also recently one more exmember committed suicide in Japan recently due to difficulties coping with real life and Family Brainwashing techniques and abuses on it's younger generation.
You could also give them a long list of all the other ones around the world that have taken their lives .
Although this approach seem a bit morbid it also expose the Leaders and the methods they use to smooth the media and hide things under the carpet.
Maybe then they will take exmembers a bit more seriously and start some serious investigations on the group.
you need all the dirty laundry on this group and their false front.
Hope that they hanged themselves this time trying to cover up SarahDavidito's legal name and the facts of her psychological and sexual abuses of Davidito...
Best wishes for this task
(reply to this comment)
| from Haunted
Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 07:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
Re: Corporal Punishment:
DB no. 10 - "Our Teens - The Devil's Target. - a tough talk to teen David"
Berg threatens to beat Ricky:
"Next time I'm not going to just use my voice, you're going to get it worse. You've never really had me chasten you with the rod boy, but I can do it!" (pg 19 paragraph 13)
"And if I see this fascination for evil cropping up in you any more, Son, you are never going to dream how tough your Grandfather can get with you! I will whip the daylights out of you!I will take a rod like the bible says and beat you with that until you cry for mercy! Is that clear? (David: Yes, Sir) Do you belive it? (David: Yes, Sir)" (pg 20 paragraph 18)
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| from lover_of_light
Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 07:30
(Agree/Disagree?)
This whole thing really causes some serious soul searching. I certainly think F. leadership should consider resigning because of past mistakes. Kind of like CEO's of companies do when they or their company blows it real bad. But however evil Maria may or maynot be, I don't think she's anything like as bad as what I've been reading here. Here's are some of the comments about this tragedy that you guys' have posted:
"Sue got what was coming to her and I'm glad for that. "
"…but I am not sorry that he killed Sue first. She deserved it."
"I'm also disgusted by the weak Christian/democratic "need to be punished" which has been hammered not only into us, but into western civilization as well, with the exception of the various mafia subcultures (they're not perfect either, but I won't get into that now)."
"He should have been euphoric after doing the symbolic liberating deed, ready to go forward with life. It would have been a statement of, " You don't scare me anymore, I've grown up, now look who's trembling". Instead, he goes and shoots himself? Why? Because Thou Shalt Not Kill, the bible says, and so does your junior high civics class. In Ricky's case, it was no more wrong to kill than it was to remove an annoying splinter from your thumb."
"Maybe it's callous to say it, but WTF, if he had to go, he might as well have taken one of the fuckers with him; it's almost too bad he only got one"
"Sue got what she had coming, she was a child molester and participated in the organized abuse of our generation. I'm glad he stabbed her instead of just letting her off with one to the head. "
You guys are downright evil. Seems like a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | From Mir
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 13:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
Who the hell do you think you are? You obvioulsy haven't got a clue. Don't waste your time posting here are commenting on things you just don't understand. Or maybe you are still in the cult as some have suggested here... In that case let me break it to you: YOU HAVE WILLFULLY BLINDED YOURSELF TO THE TRUTH. Just think about that for a moment or two, it just may save your life or your kids life if you have the balls to face up to it.(reply to this comment) |
| | From
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 09:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
Right- I think you are coming at this from the wrong angle.
All our lives we were taught that if bad things happened to people it was Gods justice upon them. They love telling their kids horror stories. They held hrs upon hrs of prayer vigils to pray against "enemmies" (people who were trying to bring them to justice) and for something bad to happen to them.
So some of us don't care about a child abuser, so what!!
You really expect us too??
Please!! Instead of trying to help us in our efforts you want to pick out 3 or 4 people for having an attitude the cult instilled in us in the first place and of which they use constantly?
Don't call any of us a pot. None of us has done the evil things Zerby, Peter, Sarah, Sue etc did or continue to do.
Have a heart, Ricky is dead and instead of Zerby making up reasons all she has to do is listen to our reasons.
I wonder how you would feel if you had a friend who went through the pain and torment he did to have them die. You wouldn't be angry?? Think about it!
TF are angry at us for telling the TRUTH!!
We are angry that they made our lives hell.
Try and get a little bit of perspective on this.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From xolox
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 08:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
"I certainly think F. leadership should consider resigning because of past mistakes. Kind of like CEO's of companies do when they or their company blows it real bad. "
What TF did was much worse than anything Enron officials ever did. Or Martha Stewart, for that matter. Don't belittle the repugnant, not to mention criminal actions of TF. Diddling little girls and boys is NOT a corporate scandal! Denying them an education, while engineering psycological traumas, is not something a "resignation" will fix. Not even Jail time can really fix it, although it's well deserved.
"You guys are downright evil. Seems like a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black". "
Here's an Idea: instead of sending some drone-head to defend a possition that is so blatanly wrong, how about the Kirby Kreature turn herself over to be gang Diddled by everyone who was affected by her actions... oh wait does that make me evil? hmm... I don't own a Bible, Except for the one in my head, but if I'm not mistaken there is a passage (one that was quoted incessantly I might add) "by their fruits ye shall know them" we're these peoples fruit, LITTERALY. Here we are, the evil fruit of an evil tree. And Evil Rick was the quintessetial poter boy for our evil generation. Wake up and smell the evil, it's all around you, and no imaginary keys, or imaginary friends, is going to wipe your souls clean. You F people spend so much time pointing fingers, because to take a good look at yourselves would probably crush you and drive you to suicide. So go ahead and look, and good riddance to bad rubbish.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Nancy
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 08:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
You sound very cultish, despite your attempts otherwise, in the words you choose. You refer to Zerby as "Maria." You even call it "F. leadership." Are you the messenger sent to respond? Or are you self-appointed? You need to do some "soul searching?!" Will you be doing that before or after devotions?
There are those of us here who are very scarred, very young and very angry as a result of what the cult did to them. However, there are other of us here, quite a few, who aren't so naive as to not be aware the cult sifts through this site routinely and even responds. So, don't think you can come here and fool us all and draw attention to the comments of the youngest and most injured of us in order to discredit those of us who have your number and that of your leaders, too.(reply to this comment) |
| | From lover_of_light
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 16:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm certainly NOT a messenger sent to respond. Just a free-thinker expressing my opinion. Isn't that what we're supposed to do on this site? Do I not have that right just 'cos I don't want to embrace your hatred? Actually I feel very deeply for you who have suffered in the Family, but you wouldn't believe that would you, 'cos it doesn't fit in with your stereo-type image. I just don't happen to think that hatred solves anything. It makes us stoop as low as those who have hurt us. I also happen to still be a Christian and found that a lot of what is expressed on this site is an attack on Christian values. But of course, I don't have to read it, and you all are certainly free to express that. But I sincerely think that freely sharing thoughts of hatred, extreme anger and violent thoughts is dangerous and works each other up into a sort of frenzy which can end up hurting you as much as the people towards whom it is directed. There are many things that should come from Ricky's death, which made me cry as much as any of you. I hope that one of those things will be for people to realise the danger of nursing hatred and anger, that it destroys the hater as much as the hated. I happen to believe in love and forgiveness. Which means that any Family member who doesn't love and support their kids no matter what their choice is guilty in my eyes. I wish you all would extend a hand of love and friendship towards those who are suffering and hurting, instead of fueling their anger and bitterness, which will only make it harder for them to adjust and go on with their lives. And as for forgiveness, that can be a tough one--I know 'cos I've suffered some pretty bad stuff too. But it's still what I believe in and what Jesus taught. Love and forgiveness I believe is what will make this world a better place, not the extreme hatred I've seen expressed here. Hatred of ex-family towards those who hurt them, hatred of Jews towards Palestinians, hatred of Palestians towards Jews, hatred of Al Quaida towards Americans etc. etc. etc. It's all the same to me. The world is full of it but I want none of it. I'm still an idealist in a rotten world and I'm going to stick to it. Well, I've said my piece. I will leave you to your opinions and get on with my life. I'm too busy living to wallow in this any more. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Nancy
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 16:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
What exactly do you know about extending "a hand of love and friendship towards those who are suffering and hurting?" Was that what you were doing when you called the ones who posted their comments, which were obviously fueled by painful emotions, "evil"? You might want to take some of your own advice.
If it weren't for the "love and friendship" of other victims of the cult who I met here, I wonder if I would have made it through some really tough times. There is tremendous "love and friendship," not to mention non-judgmental support, which comes from people here to other second generation ex-members. There are people here who have reached out to others here who are hurting in unbelievable ways, sharing of their time, money, home, family and lives.
There are lives which have been saved through the connections and support between second generation ex-members, many whom frequent here or even reconnected here. The difference between those people and folks like you is that they offer a compassionate ear to those who are hurting to listen without passing judgment. A listening ear is often more comforting than words of advice. You probably wouldn't understand that as you continue to act like the cult in telling people what to think, what to say and how to live.
Many times what a person who is hurting needs is to voice their pain. Dictating how they must do so or what conclusions a person in pain must come to or even more that they must forgive before they are ready shows how little you really know about "love and friendship."(reply to this comment) |
| | From lover_of_light
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 18:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sorry I called 'you guys' evil. You're right, that was wrong. And I shouldn't lump you all together. I guess what I meant was that the comments I quoted sounded pretty evil. Some of the worst stuff I've ever read. I was kind of in a state of shock that someone would write that and post it for all to read. As for passing judgment, I've seen PLENTY of that here. How is it that if I express an opinion different from what most people on this site think, I'm 'acting like the cult in telling people what to think, what to say and how to live', but it's okay for other people on the site to express their opinions VERY strongly? I'm just sharing stuff I beleive, if you don't like it, leave it. I still have a right to share it and it's certainly not meant maliciously. I guess I just don't want to see anyone else get so worked up with anger and hatred that they go down the same road as Ricky.
O(reply to this comment) |
| | From so_called_evil
Sunday, January 16, 2005, 04:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
Honey, I think most of us would simply like to be able to express our personal opinions, and leave it as that. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, however, no one is entitled to dis anyone elses. I understand that your position on this is that Ricky was wrong for what he did; and yes, you are right. He was wrong to kill another human being.... but have you ever been raped? From what you say, obviously not. I have... 3 times to be exact and got pregnant from one. Honestly I have no idea who raped me each time, as I was unconscious, however, if I ever found out and met them... all I have to say is, there had better be someone with me to restrain me as I have no idea what I would do to that individual. So all this to say, I agree with you that Ricky had no legal right to do what he did, however, in my personal opinion, he had every moral right to ensure that Sue never hurt another child like she did him.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From xolox
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 21:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well I got to say one thing, you sure didn't wait for the door to hit you in the ass before you slunck back in...
Funny you should mention the freedom of expression, seeing that it was you who came in spouting that drivel about how people are evil for voicing their oppinion. At least it's just an oppinion, and not a missplaced finger, or dick! Is it just me, or has nobody else heard you condemn, or even recognize the abuse which seems to be the main issue as of late? I think there might be a great piece of insight here, into the mind of a cultie. Child abuse, manipulation, blatant lies, and Homosexual Necrophilia don't faze you, but ouch! Don't the truth hurt.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Vicky
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 20:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
I can understand that you would be shocked to see people voicing such views, after all it's been drummed into us all through most of our lives, and I'd imagine into you through a big part of yours as well, that we should 'be nice' at all times, that thinking 'negative thoughts' is wrong, and that we should ignore (and subsequently internalise) any anger and hurt that we may feel. This is, in fact, a very unproductive and ultimately seriously unhealthy and damaging way of dealing with 'negative', for want of a better term, emotions and can result in a great deal of emotional/psychological turmoil if carried on for too long.
I appreciate more than I anything about my life away from the cult the fact that I am allowed to be, to think, and to feel what I do, without fear of recrimination, judgement and punishment. Notice I didn't say 'do' anything I want. I wonder if you just haven't yet learned to accept the fact that people say all kinds of things when they are in an angry place, but it doesn't necessarily mean they would ever act on those sentiments. Perhaps each of the people whom you quoted will come back to me with the assurance that they meant exactly what they said and were speaking literally of what they would want to do. I really can't speak for them. But I will say that I've spent many hours talking with and learning to know one of them whose discourse might in your eyes paint the picture of a hateful, evil, 'dangerous' person, and he is nothing like that at all. You fail to realise that in exploring moral themes on a philosophical level, one might espouse highly controversial notions which are uncomfortable for many to be confronted with because they go against the conditioned view of what is morally acceptable. But there is a big difference between voicing an opinion and actually living it in the 'real world.'
You say, 'As for passing judgment, I've seen PLENTY of that here. How is it that if I express an opinion different from what most people on this site think, I'm 'acting like the cult in telling people what to think, what to say and how to live', but it's okay for other people on the site to express their opinions VERY strongly? I'm just sharing stuff I beleive, if you don't like it, leave it. I still have a right to share it and it's certainly not meant maliciously.'
First of all, you are an FGA, are you not? That makes you a visitor to this community as this is a site geared specifically to those who had no choice in the matter of growing up in the cult. Yes, you are free to speak your mind, but in return we are free to challenge your position and express our reactions to what you say. You will never understand what we feel about our background, because you have not lived it in the way that we did. Some may be forceful and in some cases severely angry and confrontational in their responses, and for that I offer no apology since it's not my place to do so on their behalf, and in any case I don't personally feel that anyone has said anything particularly offensive to you.
But I would like to assure you that I know about moving on and leading a productive, positive life. I strive for that every single day. Contrary to what Zerby would have you believe, I don't sit around all day 'murmuring' and brooding in 'bitterness' and being eaten up by rage. I have children and I am studying and there is a range of more beneficial activities to occupy my time. I am also generally at peace with my upbringing and have found that I can overcome the difficulties encountered as a result of it. That doesn't, however, mean that I am not entitled to be angry at times and to voice that anger, if and when I feel it necessary to do so. This is our place for free expression and sometimes that means ranting and venting the hurt and disappointment, particularly at a time when many have been deeply affected by the circumstances surrounding the untimely death of yet another one of our peers. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | from Selfappointed
Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 06:32
| from Selfappointed
Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 03:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
All this brings to my brainwashed mind the verse:
"and the time shall come when killing you they will think they do God a service".
Congratulations-some of you fit in this category.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | from Oddman
Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 02:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
Perhaps the webmaster could keep the politics and analysis out of this thread. Probably should have one thread for "After Ricky" where we can discuss recourse and keep up to date with the news, one "Why Ricky" for debate and analysis regarding Ricky's actions, and one solely for memorium.
Actually can't really say, cause I've made some posts too, but I think we're starting to run wild now. Am I the only one that feels Ricky deserves his "in rememberance" thread to be clean of any comments that involve hate or judgemental comments?
(reply to this comment)
| from neez
Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 01:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
There's some info here: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.activism.militia/msg/8c6329a0382a2fb8?q=davidito&hl=en&lr=&rnum=5 Do a text search for "davidito". It's about halfway down.
On October 10, 1993 the Houston Chronicle reported, "she
writes of and is pictured having oral sex with the child. There are
pictures of the child masturbating and being placed in a copulatory
position with a small girl. Although this is about Sara I think.
Need registration to access the archives on the Houston Chronicle's site though. http://www.chron.com/
(reply to this comment)
| from smashingrrl
Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 23:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
Info: Maria has legally changed her name to "Katherine R. Smith".
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | From Be afraid, very afraid - gringomia
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 00:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sweet stuff. I'd hire a tracker and hitman, but won't.
We'd all prefer to see them tried and convicted, placed behind bars, stripped of freedom and rights, physically abused, molested and raped up the rear.
Maybe they'll understand then, why some of us feel like killing ourselves, and why we hate the perpetrators of these crimes. Or are they gonna practice heaven's girl and say "I can please you better without the handcuffs.".
Justice will be had either way.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from rover
Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 21:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
New article
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/crime/56701
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From and...
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 10:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
One thing that bothers me just a bit is that as of yet there is no photograph of Ricky posted on TF's 'graduates' (deceased persons)page. I know it's only a little thing, but it seems to me that any truly loving parent would think of posting his/her child's photo as a memorial of sorts. The whole thing has been handled in a very loveless and businesslike manner, in my opinion.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Oddman
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 22:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
I stand to be corrected, but didn't TF initially acknowledge that Sue(angela) was a member for over 30 years? How can they deny her connection with Ricky?
Who is this spokeswoman anyway?
She says she didn't know Ricky, but seems to find herself in a position to deny that Ricky lived with Sue, and even claims this young man she didn't know was "disturbed".
What was that about financial support? What was Ricky getting?(reply to this comment) |
| | From
Sunday, January 16, 2005, 04:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
This "Spokeswoman" is Claire from the home in Baltimore. She is one of the media board people for the USA. It would be interesting to know whether or not she ever lived with or spoke to Ricky before he died.
I have a couple questions concerning Sue and her furlough... Has anyone in TF ever been allowed to have a furlough? And what is this about financial support? When I left my I was on my own. If Mama and Peter live so frugally, and don't have any money, then how were they managing to support Ricky for so long? If WS is really broke and in need of support, then how can they allow member to go on paid furloughs, and support ex-member children? (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Plus Also
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 23:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
The Family didn't ban adult's sexually sharing with minors in 1986, but in 1987 when he would have been 12 unless they banned it before 1/25.
The bit about how the young person inexplicably got "estranged from her mother" which started everything (wow, unexplained snapping seems to come easy in that milieu's product) is not a new trope for them either.
Some people seem to be talented liars, I must recognize that.(reply to this comment) |
| | from natedogg666
Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 15:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
fuck the family!!!
its all going to end soon i just hope my parents decide to leave sometime soon
(reply to this comment)
| from Tiger
Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
Y ways remote and distant waters sped,
Brother, to thy sad graveside am I come,
That I may give the last gifts to the dead,
And vainly parley with thine ashes dumb;
Since She who now bestows and denies
Hath ta'en thee, hapless brother from mine eyes.
But lo! these gifts, the heirlooms of past years,
Are made sad things to grace thy coffin-shell;
Take them, all drenchèd with a brother's tears,
And, brother, for all time, hail and farewell.
This English translation of Catullus' "On the Burial of his Brother" was composed by Aubrey Beardsley (1872-1898).
(reply to this comment)
| from EXFM
Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:17
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree with most of y'all about what happened to Rickey and how he just wanted justice and all that stuff.
But justice doesn't mean go kill someone; that doesn't solve or change anything. I think that we all have been through some shit (maybe not as bad as Rickey) but that doesn't mean that we are going (or should) let it take over our minds, and that's what's wrong the more you show that what they have done affects us to the point of committing a murder or suicide, it's not going to change anything. It obviously didn't make Rickey feel any better because in the end he took his life as well and that there proves that no matter what we do it's not going to make us feel good or justify our anger.
I don't want any of you to think that I think that what has happened in TF was right or that I'm defending them (not for one second) this has to do with us (the ones that left) that woke up one morning and saw the bigger picture and realized that it was time to get the hell out!!!!! We've all gone through that and we are better than some ppl think, we know what's good and what's not and we definitely know that abuse is not good, but then again it doesn't only happen in TF, it happens everyday to ppl in or out, and I think the reason why it affects us more than anything is because we were taught what was in the Bible (and the bible never says to abuse anyone) so I do understand and my heart goes out to Rickey and his family.
What I don't understand is why ppl in TF use the bible to do wrong???!!!!
It's so fucked up because no matter how much they try to convince you that the Bible says this or the Bible says that, they never seem to be able to prove it to you in anyway, I was a big fire ball I'd always get into huge arguments about what was said and then I'd be locked up in my room, or had to do dishes for a month and still my mind wouldn't accept it, I know without them having to tell me, what's really right and what's wrong (as we all) I think that Rickey had alot of anger in his heart and just couldn't live with it any longer and then one day "surprise" got rid of his biggest nightmare, but got rid of himself as well because the thought of ending someone's life would've haunted him for the rest of his days and that's just wrong!!! It's horrible when you think of someone you've read about all your life and still didn't know anything about him, it's pretty freaky and really makes you think that no matter how much you would like to trust ppl you just can't, because the ppl you looked up to the most in your childhood let you down and there really is nothing you can do about it.
But it's sick to think that one of us could commit such a horrible crime....I don't know if any of you can really make sense out of what I'm saying but there are all of these mixed feelings and I don't think that I'm able to express them correctly. There is so much I want to say but can't find the right way to say it, I think some of you understand what I'm trying to say and then again so of you might just not.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From Vicky
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 10:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
I understand your point of view though I am not going so far as to agree with it. I'm not sure that this is the appropriate thread to discuss the ethics of this situation though. Many of us, particularly those who knew Ricky and loved him dearly, are probably working through very raw emotions and reactions at this time, and I personally feel that judgements on his actions are unwarranted at this particular time. Furthermore, none of us will ever know exactly why Ricky took his own life; He may not even have fully understood it himself, so I find the automatic assumption that it was out of guilt rather irritating. It could very well have been a remorseful action, but perhaps he was just tired of the pain and decided to find his peace.
I am glad, even through my bitter sadness at the death of another one of us and the untimely end of a life that should have held the promise of a full, rich and happy existence, that now he does not suffer. As Sarafina said, he does not need our tears now. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Oddman
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 02:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree with Vicky. A separate thread should be used for discussing the ethics of Ricky's course of action. For now, I think we owe Ricky the respect to not judge him in this thread. Not that I at all approve of his actions, but I just think he went through much worse than the most of us, though I am sure among the ladies there were some afwul exceptions that simply can't be compared due to the gender difference. With Ricky, on top of being a sex toy for a bunch of demented old paedophiliacs, he was publicized, and pumped up as the prince. Not one of us can truly say we understand. When we do not understand, we cannot judge. We cannot say, "if it were me" cause it wasn't.(reply to this comment) |
| | From tiahogan
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 11:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
Vicky, I am glad to hear from someone who knew Ricky & sympathizes with his pain. I am a complete outsider to any inside knowledge on him & his situation, but I do belive what his wife & friends say about the situation.
What I think is sad is that people will hash & rehash his motives & actions agains Angela, but hardly anyone will look into what could have saved this situation from happening, and that is simple "therapy". Unfortunately, most first generation members of TF deny and forget past incidences and try to make everyone forget what happened. But what is not shown is the deep hurt left behind in the mind of those children who were legitimately abused. I have not heard of Maria proposing a therapy session with anyone & sincerely begging forgiveness, not just "ok, sorry, let's move on". These scars can lead people to madness and complete dispair, this is REAL.
I belive most leadership in TF are afraid of legal consequences to their past actions and that is why they won't come public with the past & admit to it. I think it's sad because if everyone who was abused came out in public and defended the fact that what was said in the news by Ricky's wife & friends is true, not lies, then perhaps there could be some justice to what has happened & been forgotten by so many for so long.
I do feel for Angela's family, but people cannot go through their lives covering up terrible wrongs they've done to people, without it come around to haunt them at some point. There are consequences to everything in life. Unfortunately for her, this time her ghost did not find her in dreams, but in real life. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Vicky
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 12:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
Just a clarification: I didn't know Ricky personally. My empathy comes from an understanding of the thought process of the seriously suicidal individual, having been in that position myself. I don't know what it is that makes some people able to pull themselves back and rationalise their way out of the all-encompassing despair that lends itself to the conclusion that only death would assuage their desperate hunger for rest, peace, tranquility. But I know that I would NEVER condemn a person who truly felt he/she could no longer face life.
I agree wholeheartedly with your final statement above.(reply to this comment) |
| | from Albatross
Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 09:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Update:
TUCSON CITIZEN
Murder suspect, a suicide, raised by cult to lead
The Family, a spiritual counterculture religious group, saw Richard Rodriguez as preordained to be its spiritual leader.
BLAKE MORLOCK and DAVID L. TEIBEL
news@tucsoncitizen.com
Richard Rodriguez was raised to be the spiritual leader of a tightly knit religious organization of 12,000 followers.
Instead, his life ended Saturday when he shot himself in the head hours after allegedly stabbing Angela Smith to death in Tucson.
Rodriguez left the Family International in 2000 but was still haunted by what he experienced growing up in its rigid structure, said Celeste Jones, a friend who also had left the Family and spoke to him the day before he took his and Smith's lives.
"He was very upset and thought there was no justice," said Jones, who now lives in England.
Rodriguez had worked to make those who raised him, including Smith, believe he was not upset.
"He wanted them to think everything was OK," Jones said. "That was part of his plan."
What he did was likely an act of vengeance for abuse he received as a child, Jones said.
Tucson police detectives believe Richard Rodriguez's motive for killing Angela Smith is rooted in their past, but are having difficulty nailing down just what that motive was.
"Richard believed she (Smith) was responsible for something that happened to him in the past," said Detective Sgt. Mark Fuller, in charge of the police homicide detail.
But, Fuller said, detectives have not been able to confirm what it was Smith may have done to Rodriguez.
Smith had helped raise Rodriguez, "maybe like a nanny," Fuller said.
A spokeswoman for The Family International denies the group, which she calls a communal organization, did anything to hurt Rodriguez.
"Ricky was not the subject of corporal punishment," said Claire Borowik, who lives in the Washington, D.C. area. "He lived in a liberal environment and it was not something he dealt with."
Moreover, Rodriguez left the family on good terms and started to display rage only after he began talking to a group of former members.
Smith was not a member of the Family at the time she was killed and hadn't done anything to Rodriguez that would give him a motive to kill her, Borowik said.
"Angela was a beautiful human being who never hurt anyone," she said.
But the group does have more lax sexual norms than most societies, Borowik said.
In 1986, the Family was forced to impose age limits for who could sleep with whom, she said.
The Family abused children in a variety of ways, said Stephen Kent, a professor of sociology at the University of Alberta.
The family regularly practiced corporal punishment and was imbued with a relaxed sexual ethos, Kent said.
"The inner circle of this organization was highly eroticized with few if any boundaries between children and adults," Kent said.
"Ricky went through a tremendous amount of physical and sexual abuse as a child," Kent said.
The group considered Rodriguez special and he was the subject of a book called "The Davidito" chronicling his upbringing.
Rodriguez was born to Karen Zerby, who ran the Family along with its founder, David Berg. Rodriguez did not know his real father but Berg filled that role, Jones said.
The Family believed Rodriguez's place in the group had been preordained, Borowik said.
"We believe in prophecies, that he would play an important role in the group," she said.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | From cassy
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 02:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
Here are some of the paragraphs from that letter. I didn't paste it all but just took the parts that show he had issues with his upbringing.
Road to Commitment (the date is 7/1996)
157. Grandpa touches on one of the things that you have been misled about for a long time, and which, sad to say, you have spread around and misled others in as well. One of the excuses that you've used for your actions is that it's because of your upbringing…
162. In fact, through your sample and the things you've told other young people, you've as good as said that what Dad and I have been preaching about in more than 3,000 Letters doesn't work. Because whether you intend it or not, the impression people get is that if it didn't work on you who were right there getting the sample firsthand, then how can it work with anyone else?
163. The way many people interpreted your actions was that you were saying by them that, "The Letters aren't really true because they didn't work on me. There must not be enough in those Letters to make our young people happy, satisfied, fulfilled and fruitful, because it hasn't made me that way!"
166. Jo also told you that you shouldn't label your upbringing as bad or negative or incomplete just because you wanted to try something else. He explained to you that you could just say what the truth of the matter was, and the way you could truthfully explain it is that you had gotten a lot of theory, but now you wanted to go out to the field and experience it. On the other hand, you could go out and tear everything down and blame everything on us and the way you had been brought up and make it look like everything in your past was a mistake, which unfortunately is what you more or less opted to do.
167. That saddens me, because I know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the training you got was very good. You may not have always lived around as many young people as you would have liked, and you may not have gotten out witnessing as much as you and we would have liked you to. But you had a lot of marvelous, face-to-face personalized training from Grandpa, you had a lot of opportunities to learn a variety of skills, including some witnessing, and you had very concerned and loving shepherds who took good care of you, and with whom you had lots of fun times as well.
173. David, do you know what your spreading this lie around that you were deprived in your training and life with us has done? Well, a lot of damage, to be blunt.
174. It's clear you have made the wrong choices, but why did you make these choices? Was it our fault? Was it really your upbringing? I couldn't see how it could be…
******
Just shows how Zerby refuses to listen to what he was saying and instead opted to blame him. It was this rejection that ulitmately led him to destruction because she basically thought she could tell him what to think and how to feel. Also pick up on that line saying that he had wonderful people to take care of him as a child. Yuck! Imgine how that made Ricky feel.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Haunted
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 11:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ricky's own words rebutt this nonsense from Borowik:
"Sweet and loving Mama Maria wanted Sara to slap us silly and grind us into the ground if we did anything wrong. Berg was absolutely horrified if he ever heard of Techi getting spanked more than just a few little "love-pats". Berg was undisputedly the boss, but Maria really held the power, so Sara was stuck in the middle.
She became increasingly violent to where she would just loose it, and start hitting and kicking us for minor infractions. One of the rules was that during meals us kids always had to pick up the water pitchers with two hands (as well as only eat with spoons and only use half a napkin). At the end of one meal, I reached over and picked up the mostly empty pitcher with one hand. She slapped me full swing with the back of her hand which knocked the pitcher out of mine, and almost knocked me off my chair. Her hand hit my eye, which I couldn’t fully open it till the next morning.
Another time I "justified myself" for something. She threw me against the wall and kicked me repeatedly.
I was helping the handymen once, by painting a new gate that had just been erected. I lost track of the time and was about 20 minutes late for lunch. I came timidly into the lunch room, hoping to avoid her. I sat down as far away from her as possible, but I noticed her glaring at me.
After lunch, when most people were in the kitchen going through the dish line, she grabbed me and started slapping me with both hands back and forth. She threw me to the ground, and then half dragged me back to our room.
During Techi’s long hours spent writing how very sorry she was for her sins each week, while we were having "get-outs" and watching movies, she developed this habit of writing under her nails with her pencil. Sara was totally horrified when she saw it, and, screaming at Techi, threatened to "jam the pencil under her fingers" if she didn’t stop it. At first I just thought she was just bluffing to try to scare Techi into breaking the habit. After seeing the look in Sara's eyes, though, as she was screaming and yelling, I wasn't so sure. Poor Techi was in tears.
Those are only a few examples of Sara’s violent tendencies and physically abusive behavior. I don’t want to excuse Sara in any way for all the evil and perverted physical, mental, and sexual abuse she is guilty of, but it’s important to realize that for the most part, she was only doing what Berg and Maria were telling her to. By far, the worst blame for what she did has to be laid at the feet of Berg and Maria."
http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=3&Cat=25&ID=445(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Nancy
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 16:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
The very one. She was jailed in Argentina for allowing her husband to rape a little girl in her care. The little girl almost died of complications from the pelvic infection caused by the rapes.
As always, Borowik's response was to attack her victim. She continues to do so, even using the child's real name in her bogus statements. The little girl is grown now, though. But, some of us don't forget what happened to our friends.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From thinker
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 10:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Some stuff going on now is quite interesting.
the intitial Family press release says Angela was a Family member for 30 years -- which she was. This debunks their party line that the COG disbanded, the Family of Love started, and all that crap. It's one organization.
Angela was a Director of Family Care Foundation. This further exposes the ongoing close connection between The Family and FCF.
Perhaps for these reasons Claire is backtracking and saying that angela was not a member. Pretty hopeless, as their internal memorandum, posted in this thread, clearly affirms that she was.
Also interesting that Claire can speak with authority about all sorts of things concerning Ricky's childhood, but she was never there. How does she know if Ricky was abused or not? Because the abuser, Zerby, said so? Crazy. She is obviously in close contact with Zerby, who of course will never be available for a police interview or the like. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 09:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
The cult's media machine headed by Borowik is in full swing with their concerted statement of blame. It is now not just "former members" who are responsible according to them. It is now "a group of former members." Next it will be a particular group of former members. Be careful! They may even go so far as to name names. Oh please let them!!! Please, please, please. Wouldn't that just give us a cause of action we always wanted? Christmas would come early.
Notice her carefully chosen words in an attempt to deflect attention from the sexual abuse he suffered to corporal punishment. Didn't Ricky write about being kicked and hit by Sara Davidito? Isn't there illustrated stories in the "Life with Grandpa" book showing Ricky being beaten as a toddler with what looks like a rolled up newspaper?
Borowik never ceases to amaze! So, you didn't beat him with a paddle and tie him to his bed and wake him in the middle of the night to exorcise him. Oh, that's right, you did that to his cousin Merry Berg. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From NVC
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 11:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
maybe, i don't have enough legal knowledge. but if in any way if any of this could create the possibility of having the equivalent of the British court case here in the US that may be a chance of seeing some justice. rememer the British case was a civil case initiated on a custody battle. here there is a murder suicide that covers what could be one of the most interesting expose' we have ever seen in cult history. is there a way to justice? (reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 10:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
I wish a group of second generation ex-members would get it together enough to make and issue a statement on all our behalf. We are always having to be reactive to the cult's statements, instead of being able to define the issue ourselves. The cult seems to benefit from our lack of organization. Yeah, we're not a group ourselves, but something should be said on our behalves. We earned that right in having experienced what we did.
We need a media spokesperson in this situation to answer these outrageous claims by the cult. I know there is enough of us that see how bogus they are to get together and come up with a simple response pointing out the evidence which contradicts them.
I mean this is really serious. The cult is blaming us for this. Are we going to roll over and say nothing? Silence can sometimes be taken as consent.
We don't all agree on everything, but enough of us agree on the most important issues. I would say the biggest is that this tragedy is not the fault of us other victims of the cult. That needs to be screamed from the rooftops.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From conan
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 12:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
What us ex-members should do is get a statement together and have as many ex-members as possible attach their real names and signastures to it. Then we should find a way to hack into TF's mailing list and send at least one copy of said statement to each and every family home in the hopes that it will be read and that the realization will sink in to the point that enough of the current members will question the integrity of zerby and co enough to leave. Or even if it didn't cause them to leave, it would at least be a glimpse of the truth in the clouded, deluded world they live in.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From smashingrrl
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 22:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
Would someone, anyone volunteer to help prepare a statement or let us know if one is in the works. I did not know Ricky but I, like all of us are affected by his death. Though I will shed no tears for Angela, Sue or whatever the fuck her name was; I am, as I believe we all are concerned that the truth be told. I don't pretend to imagine the torture he endured. We all have our memories to deal with. Could someone more literate than I post even a rough draft that could be issued to help get the truth out. I don't want his death, however tragic, to have been in vain.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 16:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
I was thinking that at least a statement should be prepared for the purpose of responding to the claim we are responsible for this tragedy to be sent to media who are doing stories on the matter. The public would be the target.
I'm much too bitter, cynical and jaded to think that anything we have to say to the cult would be heard. They won't be moved, remember? They're accutely aware of their acts and the resulting harm. That is why they try so hard to kick dirt up to deflect responsibility.
At any rate, count on me to sign any such statement devised for whichever audience. I'd even be willing to look over a draft and offer a legal take. I just don't think I should be involved in the 1st draft. I'd tear the paper with the pen in anger before the first word was ever written.(reply to this comment) |
| | From afflick
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 16:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
I have been thinking about this suggestion since Nancy posted it yesterday. Wouldn't it feel really good to have our collective voices heard (outside of this site)?
It wouldn't have to be so specific that we all have to individually approve it, just our basic reaction to the news and what we know from our own backgrounds to be true.
I would be honored to include my name to any document produced in such an effort.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Rationality
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 14:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think that any statement we send would have the most impact if it was to be received well. If we mean to get through to the mass of brainwashed sheep, it would be counter productive to send something that would be deleted unread. I suppose what I'm getting at is that if we piss them off, we'll never get them to see our side.
Whatever we send should state our case firmly without betraying our cause, but it should be heartfelt as well. people, let's tug at their heartstrings if we want to get to their minds. (if they even have any left).
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From katrim4
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 12:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
I like your idea Conan. It wouldn't have to be very long and drawn out. Just something basic that we can all agree on. If we had a file that we could print out and sign and then mail to one person who would be able to compile a master list I think it could have a big impact. By having a list of signatures we would become more "real", no longer a nameless, faceless mass of "bitter detractors" that they can blame all of their woes on.(reply to this comment) |
| | From wondering
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 10:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
i hope this can be done. i was wondering since this happened in the US if there is any possibility of turning it into a legal case? can there be a class action lawsuit or are there any grounds for an individual lawsuit against any given individual of TF involved in this? Sue is dead, but we don't know what happened right before she died. what can be legally done to make sure this does not end in silence but goes forward? with all the evidence there is about ricky's upbringing it is possible on the part of a person close to him to blame the loss on TF and their abuse? does anybody know? (reply to this comment) |
| | From NVC
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 10:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
i hope this can be done. i was wondering since this happened in the US if there is any possibility of turning it into a legal case? can there be a class action lawsuit or are there any grounds for an individual lawsuit against any given individual of TF involved in this? Sue is dead, but we don't know what happened right before she died. what can be legally done to make sure this does not end in silence but goes forward? with all the evidence there is about ricky's upbringing it is possible on the part of a person close to him to blame the loss on TF and their abuse? does anybody know? (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | from Research Help Needed
Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 08:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
Can anybody point me to the place where one of The Family's experts had given this young man's upbringing a glowing evaluation that had been included in The Family's media dossier?
I remember there used to be a specific segment in a text reproduced on The Family's website basically using him as a poster child for The Family's child-rearing practices. Presumably they focused on him in an effort to give the lie critics according to whom he had experienced inappropriate treatment (claims based on the accounts and pictures of molestation in the Davidito Book published by The Group to demonstrate the "revolutionary" upbringing methods he was forced to model). Since the abuse in his childhood made his one of the cases most documented by The Family I guess they thought this was quite a coup.
I can't find this assessment on The Family's website anymore. I think it was taken down when this happened.
If anyone can tell me where else to find this I'd appreciate it. Also I am not sure if it was Susan Palmer or Lawrence Lilliston who wrote it. Can anyone confirm? Was it in one of their books and if so which?
Thanks in advance.
(reply to this comment)
| From Jules
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 08:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
I found a reference to this evaluation in Justice Ward's judgement:
Dr Lawrence Lilliston
He is a clinical child psychologist with some 30 years experience as a clinician. He has, however, had a long standing interest in the psychology of religion and has made a speciality of his study of the development of children in religious families. He has seen about 200 to 225 children from five homes in the United States and three in England. He has however, only tested 34 out of about 8000! When questioned about his own gullibility in accepting at face value what he saw, he commented:-
"If The Family has a system for taking three to six year children and training them in such a way that they are able to maintain the deception over the time we were with them, then that is beyond belief".
He met Tony - Zack Attack and described him as a "nice pleasant healthy guy with three kids who has his life together." He admitted, however, that he would have liked to have explored how his transformation happened and what effect the threat to remove his child had upon him. Without investigating those matters his observations of Tony seem to me to be superficial and to lack academic credibility. Likewise his conclusion about Davidito. This was an opportunity to explore exactly what had taken place in Berg's household. He merely touched upon these matters and Davidito made it obvious he was not prepared to talk about it. Nor did they talk about the reasons which impelled that young man to make attempts on his life said by The Family to have been caused by Satanic influences.
Because I conclude that Dr Lilliston was not too concerned critically to examine The Family's past, I cannot be sure I get an accurate picture from him.
http://countercog.excult.org/judgment/judgment-40.htm (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | from Jerseygirl
Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 05:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
How fitting that the "endtime persecution" the cult is always ragging about may end up coming mainly from their own children. We are not some ambigous , bitter ex members Zerby and Kelly-- we are your fucking flesh and blood!! It kills me to know the horrible torture of mind Ricky must have endured for that drive back to Cali. And Nicole knowing that she would be having her last conversation with him. There just aren't words for the sadness. This absolutely has to bring even a small amount of justice, if nothing else at least the word will get out--thank you Albatross, and all of you who are making that effort, thank you so much.
(reply to this comment)
| from Lance
Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 01:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
My own words aren't good enough.
And death shall have no dominion.
Dead mean naked they shall be one
With the man in the wind and the west moon;
When their bones are picked clean and the clean bones gone,
They shall have stars at elbow and foot;
Though they go mad they shall be sane,
Though they sink through the sea they shall rise again;
Though lovers be lost love shall not;
And death shall have no dominion.
And death shall have no dominion.
Under the windings of the sea
They lying long shall not die windily;
Twisting on racks when sinews give way,
Strapped to a wheel, yet they shall not break;
Faith in their hands shall snap in two,
And the unicorn evils run them through;
Split all ends up they shan't crack;
And death shall have no dominion.
And death shall have no dominion.
No more may gulls cry at their ears
Or waves break loud on the seashores;
Where blew a flower may a flower no more
Lift its head to the blows of the rain;
Through they be mad and dead as nails,
Heads of the characters hammer through daisies;
Break in the sun till the sun breaks down,
And death shall have no dominion.
-Dylan Thomas
Be at peace Ricky.
(reply to this comment)
| from agree
Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 00:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
Appeared in court today in australia when the (family)was mentioned in regard to child sex /underage sex /rape/ i was laughed at and told nothing like this ever happened in the family, in fact it was never proved to be a cult so i was told, it has all been made up by me and there is no evidence to prove otherwise.Tomorrow is the second part of a comitial hearing to decide whether or not this case will go to trial.They laugh in my face even though my son has been molested by a FM'er, they know nothing about the family and dont want to know. Anyone in australia that is genuine and not in the family please post or email me i will reply.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From agree
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 01:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yes i have got alot on my mind (sorry)i will explain briefly.What happened to me and many others is now happening to my son the cycle hasn,t stopped. I am a SGA i was married to another older SGA now divorced as he nearly killed me one night in a fit of rage which he now will not admit he also claims he and his family do not practice family beliefs even though my son came home to tell me he & his father talk about jesus coming down from the sky praying to bring jesus into his heart, not to mention catching him at three masturbating in the toilet now his uncle has been arrested for indecent dealing with my child after a series of interviews medical evidence etc.They have the best representation ,costing probably 3 to 5k a day where is the money coming from? I have been in court fighting these people for over 2 years telling of the inevitable now it has happened i feel i am the one on trial.There is much more to this and i am finding it takes a long time for most to believe.I have so much proof but they in typical (family) practice all turn up to say they were there and it never happened.AS zerby will most likely say of what actually happened to davidito in his youth.Will add more to any wanting to email etc. (reply to this comment) |
| | From cassy
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 02:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
You should contact Eva St John, I believe she's on this site, but she is in Australia and has all the old MLs and I believe the Dito book as well. You should contact Steven Kent to send a statment as he is a professional sociologist, also look on the chat Generation Ex on exfamily.org with quotes from both the Dito book and another letter that talk about sue molesting Dito. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from Albatross
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 23:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
Here is the full article from the Arizona Daily Star.
I think it is a very accurate portrayal of the situation. The only minor clarification I would offer is that when I spoke to the reporter, I mentioned I am a student and of my plans to become a lawyer, but I was not clear that I am still just an undergraduate student at this time. Hence the reference to me as a law student, which I am not yet.
It's gratifying to see our voices be heard for once instead of TF's high-powered and monied legalese spin.
Daniel Roselle (Albatross)
By Becky Pallack
ARIZONA DAILY STAR
A man who police say committed a murder-suicide last weekend was acting in anger against a woman he claimed sexually abused him for decades as part of a sex cult, his friends said Tuesday.
Richard P. Rodriguez, 29, told family members he killed his former nanny, Angela M. Smith, 51, in Tucson before shooting himself in Blythe, Calif. Police said Rodriguez stabbed Smith to death.
The Tucson Police Department was not investigating Smith for any crime, said Officer Michelle Pickrom. But Rodriguez lived all over the world with a religious sect called The Family, and it wasn't known Tuesday whether the alleged abuse was ever reported in any of those locations.
"When he called me that night to tell me he was going to kill himself, he told me that he just wanted to be loved," said a tearful Elixcia Munumel, Rodriguez's wife. The couple was separated.
Rodriguez's mother, Maria David, whose real name is Karen Zerby, is the current head of The Family, which has also been known as the Children of God and the Family of Love.
The group, which has roots in hippie communes of the 1960s, engaged in a communal lifestyle and encouraged sex between all people regardless of age, calling it "free love," former members said. Members of The Family did not return messages left at a toll-free number found on the group's Web site.
Rodriguez's mother joined the group when it passed through Tucson in the 1970s and became the wife of the group's founder, David Berg. Berg became Rodriguez's father figure.
"Berg wanted her (Rodriguez's mother) to have an heir to his kingdom," Munumel said. Smith, a member of The Family for more than 30 years, was one of Rodriguez's nannies, she said.
"Berg encouraged sex between people in his organization and he thought it wasn't wrong to bring the children into it - and Angela introduced Rick to his beliefs," said Munumel, who also was a member of the sect.
She said Rodriguez was angry at his mother for allowing him and other children in the group to be abused. Rodriguez's mother, still with The Family, could not be reached Tuesday. Former members said she lives in seclusion and moves frequently.
As a toddler, Rodriguez was photographed with Smith for a self-published book, called "Davidito" after Rodriguez's nickname. The book contained explicit photographs and advised other parents how to raise children in the "free love" lifestyle, said Daniel Roselle, a law student and former group member who grew up with Rodriguez. He now lives in Los Angeles, but his father is still a leader in The Family, he said.
"Not only were many of us abused because of that book, but he's the archetype for all that we suffered," Roselle said, referring to Rodriguez.
As the heir apparent to The Family, Rodriguez was held up as an example of what children in the group should be, Roselle and Munumel said.
Rodriguez left The Family in 2000 and had been trying to move on, Munumel and Roselle said. However, a statement on an Internet bulletin board where members and former members post messages says he left to pursue his education.
Rodriguez began to speak out against the group's leaders and told much of his story in letters online to former members. Rodriguez compared The Family's leaders to mass murderers, saying they traumatized children.
"There's no moral book that can explain or justify what he did, but his whole life was one of abuse and then rejection," Roselle said.
Rodriguez had an interest in bringing The Family to legal justice, Roselle said. "He told me he wanted to be part of something that would really have an effect," he said. Rodriguez had moved to San Diego four or five months ago, Roselle said.
On the Internet bulletin board frequented by The Family's members a statement that claims to be from the group called the deaths Sunday a tragedy that has "brought much grief and heartbreak" to the families of Rodriguez and Smith.
"In these moments of tragedy, Ricky's family draws comfort from the timeless promises of the Bible, knowing that he and Angela have passed into the realm of eternal justice and peace," the statement says..
Rodriguez had moved to Tucson to be closer to a supportive aunt, Munumel said. But when he arrived here, he found unwanted connections to his past - including Smith.
In Tucson, his grandparents and another aunt and uncle operate and live at a home for the elderly. They declined to speak with a reporter Tuesday. A federal tax form for the nonprofit home - available on www.guidestar.com, a database of nonprofit organizations - shows Smith was a board member.
Smith also is listed as a director of Family Care Foundation, an arm of The Family responsible for humanitarian missions and fund raising.
A violent ending is not an unusual part of a cult story, experts say.
"Every one of these groups are potential Manson families," said Michael Trauscht, a cult expert and a former Pima County prosecutor who has investigated The Children of God - now called The Family - and other cults.
While Trauscht didn't have information about this specific case, he said he is not surprised about the violent act and called The Family a vicious group. He said suicides are common among cult members.
Rodriguez still felt anger and guilt about his childhood abuse, and worse, he felt burdened by what he believed was the abuse of other children in The Family, Munumel said.
"He was angry that the children they had abused had grown up and there was no justice done," she said. "Whatever happened was all the anger and all the pain and all the hurt piled up that just came out all at once."
Another former member recognized Rodriguez's abuse as being some of the worst in the organization. "I get chills when I talk about this," Roselle said. "Ricky was the sacrificial lamb for all of us."
The Link:
http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/metro/56543.php
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from M&M
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 23:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
I never personally knew Ricky, but as a kid we all saw him used as a publicity tool. I don't approve of his actions even if Sue may have been a paedophile rapist. I feel everybody is responsible for their own actions. In this sense, Sue and anybody who was involved in raising Ricky are also responsible for this tragic loss of life.
Why do so many of us have to give up on life? It's easy for the stronger ones to say, "snap out of it, quit blaming people.". None of us can say we fully shared Ricky's experiences. I've almost been murdered, but I've never been on the front cover of religious kiddy porn.
Zerby, King STD & co. I am apalled at the lack of emotion in your response to the death of Ricky. The blood of both Ricky & Sue, as well as the blood of many young and capable men and women are on your hands. We know you know. We know you don't believe. Your stupid lust for control and power and money has cost you the life of your son. Wake up for crying out loud. The last thing Ricky would want is another prophecy inspired by tracings of some Fantasy artist's work.
(reply to this comment)
| from whatever1037
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 22:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thats one of the most shocking things I've heard in years.
Who would have guessed ?
This has to be one of the toughest blows TF has recived in years and it will by far shake them to the core. I said it before and I'll say it again their time is most definitely over.
All in all rest in peace...
(reply to this comment)
| From Yellow teeth
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 00:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
This won't faze them at all. They'll just keep on coming up with silly excuses.
A: Condemn "Davidito's" leaving the family. (Zerby>> "By going out into the system he became vulnerable to the voice of the devil.)
B: Dead men speak. (Davidito speaking >> "I was weak, because I erred from the way of truth.")
C: Blame it on the enemy. (This is an attack of the enemy. They framed our prince to weaken your faith! Ricky was meeting Sue because he wanted to come back to the fold.)
Just saying, "Sorry, all that child abuse and kiddy masturbation weighed heavy on him. We made him feel responsible for all of you, and then later were stupid enough to send Sue to coax him into returning." really isn't an option for Zerby and Kelly.
I say Ricky is fully justified. If I was a 30 year old man confronted by a 50 year old woman that had raped me as I child, I would kill the bitch too. Well Zerby, there goes your endtime prophet! Bet he's gonna be a real shiner on judgement day.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Who Knew?
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 07:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
Cults are unable to brainwash, because as we all know, brainwashing is a fig newton of FREECOG's imagination.
This is the case even if you live together, read, eat, sleep, tithe, have inspiration, witness, provision and do JJT together (oh, and sacrificially "share").
However, vocal vicious apostates are able to brainwash telepathically, espacially when the majority of them never met a young man who struck some of them as aloof and who intimidated them because growing up, he was their Prince and Endtime Witness destined prophetically for Martyrdom (after duly breathing some fire).
Maybe this is why the cults hate us poor apostates -- we don't license our brainwashing technology to them!(reply to this comment) |
| | from pothead
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 19:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
what I really want to know is why, why.......rest in peace pete, and i hope you find the peace you were looking for........i never really knew pete.....he lived with us for about a month in venezuela, and i have to say he was a really great person, with an amasing sense of humor...at that time i was in the family,(thats was around 1999 and 2000) and when i had heard that he was coming to live with us i felt honerd, but not as honerd and proud when i heard(now present time) of what he was doing and what he had to go through to stand up for what he belived was right, WHAT HE HIMSELF BELIEVED WAS RIGHT, like I said i didnt know pete very well, but when i found out today, i didnt know what to think........im mean pete, i for one think there is somthing thats not right here........it might sound crazy, and wack.......but would pete really do somthing like this, would he kill somone, then kill himself, this is just a thought, i havent talked to him in years, people can change, if anybody knows anything, please, my e-mail is freedom_of_soul@hotmail.com , thanks pete, rest in peace
(reply to this comment)
| from juniper
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 19:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
I feel so helpless and I don't know what to do.
I have to do something so here are some contacts in Australia for anyone in crisis and thinking about suicide.
Crisis and support services
Lifeline
phone: 13 11 14
website: http://www.lifeline.org.au/
Kids Help Line
phone: 1800 55 1800
website: http://www.kidshelp.com.au/
Reachout
website: http://www.reachout.com.au
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from EyesWideShut
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 19:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
I am so shocked and saddened, I can't even put my anger into words. I talked to him a lot on the phone, the last time being about 2 months ago. Sue got what was coming to her and I'm glad for that. How is he being remembered? Is there a memorial service for him? Anything?
I heard that he video taped something, speaking about his reasoning. Did anybody else hear this or is it hearsay? Can anybody comment?
(reply to this comment)
| from Albatross
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 19:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
The truth is out there:
Arizona Star Eveing update
A man who police say killed a woman in Tucson and committed suicide just across the California border this week was acting out anger against the woman who had sexually abused him since he was a toddler growing up in a cult, his friends said Tuesday.
Richard Rodriguez grew up in The Family, a cult which grew out of the hippie movement in the 1960's that engaged in a communal lifestyle and encouraged "free love" - sex between all people regardless of age.
The woman found slain in her Tucson apartment, Angela Smith, was once a nanny for Rodriguez. His friends said Smith and Rodriguez had had sex since Rodriguez was a child.
Rodriguez's mother, Karen Zerby, is the cult's current leader. She joined the group when it passed through Tucson in the 1970s. She became the wife of the cult's founder, David Berg, who encouraged Zerby and the other women of the cult to prostitute themselves. Berg was Rodriguez's father figure.
Rodriguez had been trying to move on from his life in the cult, his friends said. He moved to Tucson to be closer to a supportive aunt, but when he arrived here, he found terrible connections to his past - including Smith.
A violent ending is not an unusual part of a cult story, experts say.
See Wednesday's Arizona Daily Star for more on this story.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From Oddman
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 20:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
San Francisco Chronicle
CALIFORNIA
Murder-suicide case in desert evangelical sex cult Sect heir apparent, woman who reared him are found dead
Don Lattin, Chronicle Religion Writer
Tuesday, January 11, 2005
Police in Arizona and California said they are investigating an apparent murder-suicide involving the son of Maria David, the prophet and spiritual leader of the Family, an international evangelical sex cult previously known as the Children of God.
Early Sunday morning, the body of Richard P. Rodriguez, 29, was found behind the wheel of a car in an industrial area in Blythe, a Riverside County town in the Mojave Desert on the Arizona border.
Rodriguez, known as "Davidito" when he was growing up in the Children of God, had been groomed as a child to be the heir apparent of the sect, founded in the late 1960s by the late David "Moses" Berg.
Police said Rodriguez died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound after making several calls on his cell phone.
By tracing those calls, police were tipped off to check a Tucson apartment, where they discovered the body of Angela M. Smith, 51, who died hours earlier from multiple stab wounds.
"We've had some reports that they were involved with a religious group, and that she (Smith) was involved in his (Rodriguez's) upbringing,'' said Sgt. Carlos Valdez of the Tucson police.
Those familiar with the Children of God know that Rodriguez had one of the most infamous upbringings in the sect, which in its early years encouraged sex between minors and between minors and adults.
Critics of the cult have long pointed to a booklet published by the Children of God titled the "Story of Davidito,'' which describes in glowing terms how Rodriquez was sexually abused as a toddler by his nanny, Sara.
"He was the prince,'' said Daniel Roselle, 29, a Los Angeles man who was also raised in the Children of God. "He was put on a pedestal as the future leader of the Family.''
Roselle, who says he was sexually abused by sect members when he was 7 years old, left the group in 1995, about five years before Rodriguez defected in 2000.
"I knew Ricky (Rodriguez) well, and talked to him about four months ago, '' Roselle said. "He had a lot of rage.'' The two lived at a Children of God commune in Japan in the late 1980s.
In a statement released yesterday, the Family International confirmed that Rodriguez was the son of Maria David, and that Smith was a member of the sect for more than 30 years.
"The tragic circumstances surrounding their untimely death have brought much grief and heartbreak to Ricky's mother and relatives, as well as Angela's family,'' the statement read.
The Children of God began in the late 1960s as a band of hippies, political radicals and "Jesus freaks'' gathered around Berg, a self-described "end times prophet."
In the early '70s, they formed Christian communes in California and Texas -- the first of dozens of small "intentional communities'' that would spring up around the world.
Berg died in 1994, but his movement lives on today as "The Family."
Other survivors of the Children of God include hundreds -- perhaps thousands -- of "Jesus babies" born in the 1970s and '80s. Their mothers were young missionaries who followed Berg's call to share sexual favors in order to bring young men to Christ.
They called it "flirty fishing.''
Steve Kent, a professor of sociology at the University of Alberta, said the highly sexual climate at Children of God communes "did real damage to that second generation.''
Kent and Roselle said there have been suicides in recent years among children who grew up in the Children of God.
"While no one can justify what he (Rodriguez) did, you can understand his frustration and rage,'' said Kent, who has spent years studying the movement.
"He and others from that generation have never seen justice from all the abuse they suffered.''
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/01/11/BAGNFAO7MI1.DTL
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | from Guccigirl
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 18:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
What happened is tragic on all accounts. Every time I read that one us commits suicide I am deeply sadden & yet relieved, I completely understand why they did it. God knows I’ve thought about it more than once and if I ran into certain Family members I’m quite sure it would be hard to fight the urge to kill them to. Is it just me or did anyone else feel the same way after reading the press release? The bit that got me was how quickly the family reported him to the authorities, talk about hypocrites. They were so quick to point their finger at him and then they completely disregard any claims of any abuse. Just goes to show who we are dealing with.
(reply to this comment)
| from relevant movie
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 17:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
I keep thinking of the movie "sleepers" with Kevin Bacon... if you have'nt seen it you should... and "frailty" with Matthew McConaughey
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from clark
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 17:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
Is this all TF has said about this? Anyone know of anything more being addressed by Zerby?
(reply to this comment)
| from ripcurlgirl
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 16:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
Every time I hear of someone that has left commiting suicide, dying of a drug overdose, etc. a little part of me dies too. I just know how much the lines can blur between life & death when I feel weak, & how easy it would be to also just slip away. I left & kinda just tried to forget about everything that was in my past, but that is impossible, I remember & then sink... The mental drilling that I experienced of how aweful & guilty I am, & how nothing I am, will always torture my conscience, always. For no matter how much therapy, positive life experiences, & time that passes we somehow were given the lot of being born into TF. I just want to say that I respect Ricky for the choice he made to leave, & stand up to his own mother. I respect him for the 5 or so past years of his life that he tried to make something of himself & move on in a productive way. We all know how hard it is, so for the moments that he stood on his own, even with this unbearably tragic ending, I respect him for at least attempting to overcome it all. For those of us who leave who are giving it our all to prove that we are not worthless & are making a stand to make something of our lives Against all odds, we must not lose respect for ourselves & not let it destroy any more of us...RIP Ricky
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | from Albatross
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 16:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ricky,
I cry for you....for us.
May you at long last rest in peace
Daniel
(reply to this comment)
| from Anon2
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 16:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
The thing I don't get is this: did nobody in TF all those years back ever stop to consider for one minute that we would one day grow up? That we might one day realize what was being done to us? That none of us would ever return for them, pissed as all hell? Every person in that group should be running scared right now. Anyone that abused children, or stood idly by and allowed it to happen, none of you will ever be safe again. You cannot subject people to the kind of treatment you did for their entire childhoods, make zero attempt at any sort of real atonement, continue to attack those who speak out, and not expect it to one day come back to haunt you.
Ricky, I wish there'd been some other way out for you. I wish you'd been able to overcome what they did to you and to finally experience some of the true joys that life can offer. But if your actions prevented that woman from abusing any other children, or if it causes any more of the diabolical monsters in that group to pause and think before dishing out the sexual, physical or psycological abuse that they routinely subjected so, so many children to over the years, then your death is not in vain. Somewhere out there is a child who will never know the horrors you went through, who will wil blissfully unaware of the debt of gratitude they owe you because of the sacrifice you made.
Farewell man. May you finaly, at long last, rest in peace.
(reply to this comment)
| From
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 11:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
No they didn't think that we would grow up. They taught that Jesus would return in 1993 and when that didn't happen they shape-shifted and kept postponing the end of the world.
The family have been aware for some 10 yrs that there are ex-members and children born to the group who have left and who are un-happy, disgusted, and angry at the treatment recieved by a suposedly "loving Family" with christian values.
Many of the crimes we have reported are against the law e.g sex with minors, but they prefer to believe that we are attacking their religous freedom and have garnered support from some acedemics. (who would have one group less to study if they were not considered a NRM)
Zerby has said to her members that any complaint against TF is an attack of the devil. So they close their ears to us.
(reply to this comment) |
| | from In rememberance
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 15:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
So sad. May you rest in peace Ricky. You will be missed.
(reply to this comment)
| from Shaka
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 11:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
Notice how when the countless exers in past have taken their own lives, TF gives no notice unless the individuals parents are still in the cult. Now when one of their own is killed, and some of the heat is on them, we're going to see every cultie come crawling from the woodwork with something to say.
(reply to this comment)
| from not the first time
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 10:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
how many more, Zerby? what a legacy, may Berg be always remembered as the false "prophet" whose own son and grandson took their own lives because of his teachings... and how many countless others whose lives are gone or may as well be in his wake... Lets hope that (and do all we can to help) the new focus of the authorities on the fam over this tragic, but sadly, not unique event will help save others from their "fellowship"
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from JudasChrist
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 10:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
Fucking Black Metal!!
Ricky Sir. You were heavy as fuck man--Living the abuse we all did, and suffering mental torment, but on a scale some of us may not even imagine, and then again, not near as much as some. Regardless,. We salute You!
Stories of burning churches, the annihilation of religious artifacts, sites, relics and in some cases people, are in my playlist via the dirges and demonic axework offered by Scandinavias' finest, in lyric and song. But this, tops all of them, as it expresses what I indeed feel, and what many of you feel....this extreme hate and abhorration for the evils done to us and our friends and brothers and sisters.
I've been writing ALOt of extremely heavy, depressingly good music lately, and NOT all metal, some of my influences as well, and decided to dedicate a project to Ricky and ALL of US and people who have passed on--It's a tribute, it's respect. Here's a non-rehearsed, rough mix of a song, called: The Saddest Song In The World, I did this b4 I got news of Ricky's passing, but will use lyrics I was inspired to write for such. I also have another song U can hear, also no drums, as I ned dto have time to program them, but it's a heavier piece dedicated to the man and his feelings. This is a 100% NOn-profit deal and will give everyone free cd's of it when done if interested.
http://thanapaulisrecords.com/DeAdSeASoulS.cfm?CFID=3505733&CFTOKEN=58003978
We ~R all a brotherhood of sorts, and connected via genuine friendship or common experience in the suffering of such evils as we did suffer, I will now Hail the Knight who stood higher than us all. And whether you condone the murder of such a soul ( I DO 100%!!!), we all can hail this gone legend.
I don't believe in killing an individual, for revenge, or I'd have quite the collection of human flesh to pawn to 3rd world country's and mad Drs. and scientists.
However, this is FUCKING black metal, this is REVENGE (he repayed it!), this is MORE than murder, but a statement and hopefully a Tsunami in Zerbes agenda (I doubt it), to disband this group and enter the psyche ward! (Don't we wish).
Again, this is NO ordinary murder, yet a mere statement if you will, to those that matter (authorities etc), that WE ALL feel the same for the most part. Again the sad link is:
http://thanapaulisrecords.com/DeAdSeASoulS.cfm?CFID=3505733&CFTOKEN=58003978
And Please feel free to submit poetry and whatnot via email or whatever, A cd I will make For US for FREE will be a fun project for me...."Music Inspired By...." I dunno.
Judas
(reply to this comment)
| From JudasChrist
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 10:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well,. I DO know! Music Inspired By Memories Imprisoned In A Hollow Brain...(I still don't know)/
Merry New Year 2 ALL! ! And as sad as this is, we all will be ok, and justice will be served, one way or another. With her son's passing she MUST make some appearance--Hey, I'm calling big fat Michael Moore on Zerbe--When his annoying ass is done with you, we'll bowl you around and go straight Bin Laden on You! BeeItch!
(reply to this comment) |
| | from Gothsmack
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 08:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
Rest in peace Ricky, your legacy will live on.
On a secondary note, it will be rather difficult for him to fulfill Berg's prophecy by becoming one of the "endtime witnesses" now that he's passed away.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | from afflick
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 07:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
It is almost as if you fulfilled your destiny...for one moment, everyone had to tell the truth.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from Jordan
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 06:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
What a terrible thing!! I do hope that with this tragic event the truth will be forced out.
But life is power and supremacy! To create our destiny is a gift. Why should we waste it? Life is hard and a lot of shit happens no matter where u come from . We as former members of the family are not exceptional in our experiences. DO PEOPLE REALIZE THIS?? And there is no excuse for murder. If Ricky needed justice to move on, there are other ways in going about it. He let that family win! Let them break him! I’m disappointed with him. Of all people who could really bring out the truth he was the one. There are many that have similar experiences as he did and he was not alone. Being the “Prince” of the family he had about the most leverage any of us could possibly hope for. Why kill ourselves and others? We are just saying we can’t live in the “real world” and handles life’s problems. We are the ones that are ultimately the losers if we do.
(reply to this comment)
| From movedon
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 10:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
This is a tragic time and a time for us all to ask ourselves what does life mean to us? I like to think in terms of what I can get out of life since life is so short and the fact that my childhood and teen life were spent in The Family, there is so much catching up to be done. There is a time to reflect on the past and come to terms with it and then a time to move on...I have found focusing on my life and the present is much more effective than delving into and finding about all the shit that went on in The Family. We know it sucks big time, so why waste more time on it than has already been wasted. I think we should be focusing on how we can build our broken lives up so we will have something to say for ourselves and our children who will hopefully grow up respecting us for what we had to go through and how we came out of it stronger than yesterday! Really it sobers me up and makes me ask myself what if I had kids, what will they be saying of me in twenty years and what am I doing to focus on my future. Rest in peace Ricky and may history never repeat itself again.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Nina
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 23:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
thought I'd moved on too.
before I would have been the first one to agree with you. That was my opinion all the way. But this is just so sad. I find myself wondering if I was wrong in just leaving it all in the past and never looking back.
Did we who managed to "move on" neglect those who couldn't.
How can we try to prevent this from happening again.
Something has to be done. No one should have to go through what he did.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Oddman
Thursday, January 13, 2005, 00:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
I reckon if this moves enough ex-members, enough media, we can make a lot of current members realize something is just very wrong. Zerby and Kelly (or whatever they now call themselves to evade their many enemies) have the power, because David Berg nominated Zerby as the next leader. (although I suspect Berg was just a senile whackbrain, and Zerby was writing everything.)
If we can move swiftly enough, and get Zerby, Kelly, and Grant out of the picture, I think everything wil fall apart. The control is in the GN's. Always has been. If WS is closed down, and public news reports the arrest of leadership, then TF will dissipate, even without officially disbanding. I think that would help a lot of us get over it and move on. There will be nobody to get back at, and we'd only have our future to think about. (reply to this comment) |
| | From movedon
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 10:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
This is a tragic time and a time for us all to ask ourselves what does life mean to us? I like to think in terms of what I can get out of life since life is so short and the fact that my childhood and teen life were spent in The Family, there is so much catching up to be done. There is a time to reflect on the past and come to terms with it and then a time to move on...I have found focusing on my life and the present is much more effective than delving into and finding about all the shit that went on in The Family. We know it sucks big time, so why waste more time on it than has already been wasted. I think we should be focusing on how we can build our broken lives up so we will have something to say for ourselves and our children who will hopefully grow up respecting us for what we had to go through and how we came out of it stronger than yesterday! Really it sobers me up and makes me ask myself what if I had kids, what will they be saying of me in twenty years and what am I doing to focus on my future.
(reply to this comment) |
| | from vacuous
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 06:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
But then again in quantum free will, this is just one of many parallel universes containing all the variations of Rickey and Angela's possiblities. Rickey "took one for the team" so to speak. This option has been expressed in our dimension...unfortunately, but this means that in another universe this misfortune will not be expressed. A universe with a happy fullfilled Rickey requires one with a depressive dangerously suicidal one. Ok so i realise that i am talking nonsense, I am just trying to be comforting...this doesn't mean that there is free will, just multiple fates.
(reply to this comment)
| from vacuous
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 06:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
It is unfortunate that Ricky's environment caused the negative potential that materialized to such a violent conclusion. Also to be regretted is the death of Angela who became the final focal point in the cause/effect culmination.
(reply to this comment)
| from pharmaboy
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 06:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
Shame, Ricky died. I didn't really know him so I can't feign sadness, but it's nonetheless a twisted story come to a tragic end.
When things like this happen it does raise a lot of questions on free will. Could Ricky have chosen to behave differently to the circumstance, or was he just he just responding to the input he had received as child, that is no more than a programmed computer or a simple organism responding to external influences? Based on this question we can deduct who is to blame for the death of two people, TF or Ricky. Not that I really care about placing the blame, but the way we categorize events is a reflection of the way we handle our life and our own personal outlook on crime and punishment.
It's an important question to ask because it's easy to go from pity to self-pity. Our first reaction will be one of shock and disgust towards the events and people that led to this outcome, Ricky is the victim here, he had no choice than to behave the way he did. Apart from being disgusted by the treatment he received in TF, I'm also disgusted by the weak Christian/democratic "need to be punished" which has been hammered not only into us, but into western civilization as well, with the exception of the various mafia subcultures (they're not perfect either, but I won't get into that now). We've internalized it so well, that we don't need a religious and/or law enforcing figure beating us over the head anymore, we voluntarily seek out the punishment for our supposed sins, in hope of a social redemption. We are the silliest mammals, aren’t we?
So, first he killed his nanny, then overwhelmed by guilt, ended his own life? For someone as deep in as he was with TF brainwashing, I can't think of a more affirming, "move on" gesture than that of eliminating this spectre of his childhood horror and submission. He should have been euphoric after doing the symbolic liberating deed, ready to go forward with life. It would have been a statement of, " You don't scare me anymore, I've grown up, now look who's trembling". Instead, he goes and shoots himself? Why? Because Thou Shalt Not Kill, the bible says, and so does your junior high civics class. In Ricky's case, it was no more wrong to kill than it was to remove an annoying splinter from your thumb.
That’s just some random and disjointed thoughts that come to mind…
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From Vicky
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 06:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
One more thing:
'I didn't really know him so I can't feign sadness'
Would you mind clarifying this statement? Did you mean to say here that you don't wish to feign sadness, since you did not know him, or are you speaking in a more philosophical sense e.g. there is no reason for sadness in the event of a death and so emotionalism becomes nothing more than a ritual of sorts, that is in effect meaningless? I am just curious as to what you meant. (reply to this comment) |
| | from neez
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 05:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
Oh fuck this.. I don't know what to say.
They will pay. No more talk, something must be done.
(reply to this comment)
| from ange
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 04:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
The article by Don Lattin can be found here:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2005/01/11/BAGNFAO7MI1.DTL
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | from Baxter
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 04:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
Maybe it's callous to say it, but WTF, if he had to go, he might as well have taken one of the fuckers with him; it's almost too bad he only got one. I know it isn't PC to advocate suicide, but it was his life, and he chose to end it the way he did, and I think we should respect that.
(reply to this comment)
| From
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 22:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm sorry Ricky took his own life. I kept hoping that he would find a way to get through it. I know he was contemplating suicide for a long time and he choose to take her down before he went.
Sue got what she had coming, she was a child molester and participated in the organized abuse of our generation. I'm glad he stabbed her instead of just letting her off with one to the head.
I don't care what any of you have to say about some of us being 'psyco', how do you think we got this way? Are we just supposed to leave it to some higher power to avenge us? What about those xers that are too damaged to have a normal life? And yes there are plenty of them.
Do child molesters deserve to live?(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From lotstoforget
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 12:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
Boy, Baxter, sounds like "Brawn" is definitely outweighing your "Brain". I can't really refer any serious researcher to this site anymore, because people like you make us all sound like psychos. Like I said below, I'm definitely checking out of here. Want no part in this. Man, you guys are starting to talk killing. Now that says nothing about the cult you came out off, but it says a lot about YOU!!(reply to this comment) |
| | From
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 12:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think it's more likely they'll see how "phsyco" and evil the cult we are talking about is, and how much damage they have caused which they refuse to acknowledge or repair or change. They go on their merry way treating their victims like we don't exist and get mad at us for airing their dirty laundry in public. Reminds me of that film"The people under the stairs"
Our reactions are from shock and anger which is not uncommon(ask any psyciatrist) that one of us, who we all "knew" whilst growing up, is lost and Why. Our abuse at TF's hands are real and won't go away because they hide. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Jules
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 12:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
Please can this stop? No one condones violence or murder. I think most people are still in shock and might say seemingly inappropriate things because of that. Grief can affect people in different ways. It's even more inappropriate though to get into personal insults and arguments on this thread. That goes for uniformed speculation as well. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From ack
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 09:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
There's no excuse for murder? think again! There are plenty of excuses for murder, as there are plenty of ways to justify a righteous killing. The one thing he did right was to cross state lines before offing himself, at least it's a federal matter now. Perhaps the Feds will get of their asses? Maybe he's better of anyway. It can't be easy going through life being the literal son of a whore (Kirby's trick), as well as the poster child of those who started this whole mess. Though one wonders why a therapist was not consulted.
Then there's the method. If he owned a gun, and used a knife... I suppose we could say passion was involved. (some anti-depressants have been linked to sudden bursts of violence and rage, as have a plethora of steroids. We'll have to wait for an autopsy for that).
People have gotten reduced and lenient judgements when killing a former abuser. Who can know what goes through the mind of a suicide? If you're alive today, you cannot. Somehow I doubt it was about any court case. I can never know for sure, as anyone else's oppinion is just that. And you know? Oppinions are like assholes, everybody's got one, and they usually stink.
Wow! I think it's going to take me a full ten minutes to get over this one. though I might have to cut it short, I've got other (friends)suicides to think about.(reply to this comment) |
| | from Cultinvator
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 04:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
OK Aita, calm down ok... going a bit crazy on the post dribbling.
Ever since Aaron the first son, and River Phoenix, the famous son died of events that one might judge were to some extent self inflicted, as tragic as they are, people who leave the group are just going to keep dying, and I will die one day, hopefully they'll invent the gene-aging reversal and I won't get hit by a truck eternally, but short of that more are going to die hopefully later then sooner. We have to understand that death, including suicide is not uncommon amongst the closest of our brothers and sisters, all we can do is try to detect it early and then try to get them to see if they're open to trying some talking of these strong impulses out of their sistem by finding reasons to live that far autway anything as random an act as stabbing a nanny, no matter how much futsy she's playing with our past.
We have to deal with these injustices rationally and in a way that they actually do some differece and pull our heads out of our asses in prolonging these guilt-strikeback ways of thinking. I'm confused, I don't know half of what I'm talking about, but fuck I don't want to be anything close in my opinion of myself as rick was no matter how arrogant that sounds. He saw nothing because there was nothing to see... and that's the fucking reality of it as heartless as it may strike you at first, the first love is self love, and the last one is self loathing.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from Aita
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 04:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
Rick, you ment something to all of us, even those who didn't know you. I'm so sorry it had to end this way. It's not fair......it's not.
To all of us still here: How many more will have to die before justice is done? We've got to do something soon.......we have to expose the cult for what they are, before more of our brothers and sisters end their lives tragically.
Nicole, I know there
(reply to this comment)
| from agree
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 03:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
I go to court tomorrow to prevent my little boy from maybe ending with a similar fate.I was subjected to abuse at the hands of older sometimes much older men we all know what i mean (especially those who know me),then i married a (family)man who told me he would put a stop to it all.His abuse was just as bad.Now his brother has molested my little boy.I tell you i know how this man felt as i feel the same pain. This is me asking for help.Reading a certain comment just now has opened up alot of emotion. I want my little boy to live a normal life.Why do they do this why does it keep happening.Then they say it never happened how can we stop it.Please lets fight back i dont want to see this happen to another. RIP DAVIDITO
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from Dr.4_Shure
Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 02:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm very very SAD to have heard this news, I would have never thought it would end as tradgic as this.
REST IN PEACE!!
(reply to this comment)
| from MeccaM74
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 21:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
What a shock! -- He called me a fgew days ago and was telling me about the great time he was having in Tucson with family. His C'mas and learning about his family's little traditions over C'mas. He sounded like he was doing well.
I last saw him when he first moved to Tucson a few months ago, and when he called me we talked about me visiting him... I had the privilage of sharing 8 years and 6 months of friendship. May you rest in peace Ricky.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 21:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
Rest in Peace Ricky! May you finally find peace!
(reply to this comment)
| from Cultinvator
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 20:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
RIP RICK - A part of all of us dies with you
(reply to this comment)
| from KVOA
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 19:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
January 10, 2005 at 5:00PM MST
Lupita Murillo Reports
Man kills former nanny, then kills himself
Ricky Rodriguez committed suicide Saturday in Blythe California.
Minutes before he killed himself he called his wife in Washington State.
She says " He told me he was sad...he told me...he wanted to see me if only one more time. "
He also told her he had done something terrible.
It turns out....Rodriguez murdereed a woman in Tucson.
This is the apt. Complex where Rodriguez lived and where police found the body 51 year old Angela Smith. A crew was cleaning up the apt. Where police say Smith was murdered.....stabbed to death....sources say it was a crime of passion....
Sgt. Carlos Valdez says "we're working with his family members friends may have been in town trying to figure out what kind of state he was in."
The management at the complex says Rodriguez moved here in Oct. Nice man... Never imagined he would brutrally murder someone
Both Rodriguez and Smith belonged to a religious group...once called Children of God now called "the family".
There is a website put together by people who have left what they call a cult.
Rodriguez wife says they too had left the religious group. She says Smith had sexually abused her husband as a child.
"she was one of his nannies and she sexaully abused him. And he tried to move on with his life he tried to get over the pain ."
But apparently the pain was too much to bear...and his past came to haunt him. Rodriguez and Smith reportedly went to dinner Saturday night.
"something happened that night she said something to trigger him..because he was not an angry person not the kind of person...I'm trying to understand this."
His widow says Rodriguez mother knew of the abuse and chose not to do anything about it.
She also says sexual abuse was not uncommon in that religious sect.
--
http://kvoa.com/global/story.asp?s=2791416&ClientType=Printable
(reply to this comment)
| from mourning
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 18:32
| from Lattin
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 17:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
Would anyone who know Ricky or Angela please call me or email me with a phone number. I am writing an article on the murder/suicide right now for tomorrow's newspaper...Don Lattin. San Francisco Chronicle. dlattin@sfchronicle.com or 415-777-8479. I wrote a series a few years ago on children who grew up in several groups, including the Children of God. Thanks.
(reply to this comment)
| From
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 09:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
Angela/Joy/Sue on page 458 of the Davidito book
[ Replies to this Post ] [ Post a Reply ] [ Generation eXers Board ]
Posted by April on January 10, 2005 at 22:34:35
In Reply to: excellent! one correction posted by exmember on January 10, 2005 at 22:21:54:
"On page 458 there is a picture of a woman and Davidito on a bed and underneath the picture it says, "Oh! C’mon in! We’re just goin’ to bed!" On the same page there is a picture of Davidito and adult member Sue and under the picture it says "Undressing.........for Sue!""
above from
I also found another quote from the Davidito book indicating that Angela Smith/Joy/Sue was one of his abusers.
" In “The Island of Melita!—Acts 28:1!”, chapter 73, when he was 3 yrs. 8 mos. of age, Sara wrote:
21. Our frequent moves meant a lot of hard work on house clean-up & preparations, which David always participates in & is usually a very good boy, very “diligent in business”, & redeems his own time keeping busy with chores. It was a little difficult for him at first to be with other on the staff if Alfred & I both were busy or had to go out together, etc, but either one of sexy Pat or Sue can easily distract him when he seems worried about seeing us leave together.
22. He actually became very fond of being with the other girls, but had a funny little habit of wanting to close the doors whenever with them. Mommy said we need to get him accustomed to having his little sessions with the door open, so he can learn more about what sharing is all about.
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| | | | | | | | | | | from evanman
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 17:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yet one more tragedy to add to the legacy of Berg's twisted mind!
Sadness hardly describes the feeling at this news.
Can only hope that this serves as a wake-up call to many that are still in the cult--especially Karen Zerbe!(doubt it tho').
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/breaking/011005_woman_named.html
(reply to this comment)
| from Aaron
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 16:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
California suicide investigation leads to body in Tucson
04:25 PM MST on Monday, January 10, 2005
Arizona Daily Star
Watch FOX-11 News report
Tucson police discovered a woman's body in a North Side apartment complex Sunday after California police learned of a suspected homicide during a suicide investigation, local police said.
Officials in Blythe, Calif., contacted officers with the Tucson Police Department on Sunday to tell them that a woman was possibly dead in an apartment located at 2525 N. Los Altos Ave., said Sgt. Carlos Valdez, a TPD spokesman.
Police went to the apartment and found the body of a women believed to be in her 50s. Her identify has not been released pending notification of next of kin.
The tip came as a result of a suicide investigation in Blythe. A relative of a man who committed suicide said he heard his relative mention killing a woman at that address, Valdez said. It is unclear when the man was in Tucson or when the suspected homicide occurred, Valdez said.
The woman's cause of death is unknown pending an autopsy, and the investigation continues.
(reply to this comment)
| from Jules
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 16:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Anything I could say about this all seems so trite and empty right now. Ricky, I don’t understand why life was so cruel to you. I don’t understand any of this. Your death has impacted so many of us, and it’s so unfair to you that even now, who you were just by being born carries too much. I’m so sorry that you felt so alone. I’m so sorry that you lost hope.
You are not forgotten. One of the most moving things I have ever read was what you wrote here. While you are gone, this hope is not. I promise you that one day no child will ever have to experience what you did. Every child deserves hope and love and safety. Your life did have meaning and I promise you that we will ensure that your death will have meaning as well.
*****************************
“I’m writing this article in a very beautiful park down at the waterfront. It’s a picture perfect day; the sky is deep blue; there are white puffy clouds in the sky. I can see Mt. Rainier in the distance, and its majestic beauty is stunning.
”There’s a young couple nearby, walking with their twins. The twins are dressed the same--no shirts, with cover-alls, and baseball hats.
”Seeing kids with normal, loving parents who really seem to care about them is a bitter-sweet experience for me. On one hand it hurts because I’m reminded of the stark contrast between parents who most likely want what’s best for their kids, and the kind of parents I had, who were really only concerned about my welfare as far as they could use me for a favorable political commodity.
”On the other hand it brings me such joy to see kids like these little twins running around, because I am so thankful that they have a good shot at happiness and success in life. They have a loving, caring family to stand behind them, and don’t have to struggle with the horrible memories and abuse that many of us who grew up in the Family do.
”It gives me hope that one day Berg and Maria’s evil legacy will die with the Family, and it will be only a distant or, better yet, forgotten bad memory.”
-Ricky
http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=3&Cat=25&ID=445
(reply to this comment)
| From Nancy
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 15:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
That is really something that you posted that quote. I thought of it, too, when I was told he was gone. I have even had the same thought in the past when I've seen children play, even strangers' children. I was comforted in knowing there are children in the world who have happy, carefree childhoods.
It's also strange that the same thought seems so sad now that something as basic as happy childhood moments would be unique or stand out to us. It brings me back to the idea that there must have been overwhelming pain present in his past in order for him to have noticed the contrast between what he experienced as a child and what he observed in strangers.
It is so difficult to recognize pain in other people while being absolutely powerless to do anything about it. It's almost easier to experience it oneself, as at least there is some sort of control over the situation.
I keep coming back to the question of whether he ever felt loved by a hand which touched him. How does the human spirit survive when one is betrayed by even ones own mother? It seems unnatural. Even animals experience maternal protection through instinct. And how long does childhood pain linger? At least, 29 years it seems.
I keep listening to the Sara McLaughlin song Fallen: "We carry on our backs the burden time always reveals. In the lonely light of morning, in the wound that would not heal...it's the bitter taste of losing everything we held so dear..."(reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 09:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
Here are the complete lyrics of two verses of the song Fallen:
"Heaven Bend to take my handAnd lead me through the fireBe the long awaited answerTo a long and painful fightTruth be told I tried my bestBut somewhere long the wayI got caught up in all there was to offerBut the cost was so much more than I could bear
We all begin out with good intentWhen love is raw and youngWe believe that we can change ourselvesThe past can be undoneBut we carry on our back the burdens time always revealsIn the lonely light of morningIn the wound that would not healIt's the bitter taste of losing everythingI've held so dear"
I keep hearing over and over "in the lonely light of morning..in the wound that would not heal...", and I think of the morning light as it must have shown in on his face after he had taken his life. I can see the silence surrounding him. I feel a hush. I think about the wound to his head that seems like the inevitable physical manifestation of the inner pain he carried with him for so long. It's nearly described the line "we carry on our back the burdens time always reveals."
That pain which was inflicted on him as a child, the same pain we all know so well, which binds us together in mutual acquaintance, but wears a different mask when it visits each of us, is almost as real as a virus or cancer which cannot be seen with the naked eye. Yet, it will eventually manifest itself in the body, especially when it is ignored or untreated. Here it took control of his mind and heart and eventually his hands.
The issue which seems to be raised by Kelley's letter is a claim similar to the ones I see raised by insurance companies against my injured clients, that of the injuries being exacerbated versus pre-existing. Who is responsible for the original injuries, mental, emotional and physical, Ricky suffered even as young as a toddler and on? Where those injuries pre-existing when he left the cult as an adult? Where those injuries exacerbated after Ricky left and was out from under the custody and control of the cult? If they were exacerbated, then by the acts of whom? Other second generation ex-members who allegedly discussed their similar experiences with Ricky after he left the cult? Or were they exacerbated by acts of the cult in continuing to contact Ricky and send messengers to meet with him, even those whom were responsible for inflicting some of the first injuries to him as a young child?
I can't help but think of the Rules of Professional Conduct and the Rules of Civil Procedure which govern both attorneys conduct and litigation. One very basic rule, of which violation can bring harsh sanctions, is that once litigation has commenced, you cannot contact the opposing party. Communication with the opposing party is strictly controlled by the court and always conducted through the party's counsel. Even court ordered mediations are conducted under strict rules which protect and insulate the parties from communications from the other side. Not only is there the parties' counsel present, there is also a mediator, who is the second level messenger between even the attorneys. These rules have developed through hundreds of years of litigation and are designed to protect the parties and facilitate the process. Otherwise, we could just choose weapons and have it out in the streets, which is very much like what ended up happening here. When basic rules of conduct are ignored, especially in the face of conflict, even that being addressed through a litigious process, then it seems hardly credible for a party to the matter to blame the result thereof on the actions of a third party foreign to the actual events.
Why discuss the matter in generalities? Kelley and Zerby contacted a very scarred and injured young man, for whose injuries they are both directly and indirectly responsible, through an agent who was also directly responsible for much of his earliest injuries. It is yet unknown the content of the communications they had relayed, but the result thereof is that both the agent and the intended receiver is dead. Rather than accepting responsibility for the actions which led to this disastrous result, Kelley has made an attempt to deflect responsibility for the matter onto scores of other equally scarred and injured young men and women, of whom he and Zerby are both directly and indirectly responsible, and who were both completely ignorant of the events of the matter until after they had taken place and neither present or indirectly involved in those events. Even to the legally untrained that line of reasoning is tenuous at best, absurd at worst.
It reminds me of Cold Mountain when Renee Zellweggar says, "Why do they make it rain and then yell 'damn its raining?'" (reply to this comment) |
| | From NVC
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 16:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
very well put, Nancy.
I would just add in the list for the exacerbation that those injuries were not even acknowledged, so that the injured was left with no sense of recourse, or marginal control, whatsoever. It wasn't like, ok it happened. Something happened. It was like, these things never happened, and the reason why you are injured does not exist.
They said it so well in "none of these things move me." Nothing moves them. The arrogance is such they have never even admitted to the injuries they caused. What can be more exacerbating when you have to live every day with the result of those injuries?(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from News Update
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 16:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Police name woman killed in Central Tucson apartment
The Associated Press
Tucson Police released the name of a woman found slain in an apartment over the weekend, saying she is suspected to have been killed by a man she may have helped raise.
That man later drove to California and killed himself, police said.
Angela M. Smith, 51, was found stabbed to death Sunday in the apartment of Richard P. Rodriguez, 29, a long time friend or associate who lived in the 2500 block of North Los Altos Avenue, near North First Avenue and East Grant Road, said Sgt. Carlos Valdez, a Tucson police spokesman.
Smith may have helped raise Rodriguez, Valdez said, adding detectives are working with family member to try to develop a history of the two people.
Rodriguez was found dead in Blythe, Calif. about 8 a.m. Sunday, said Jeff Wade, a detective sergeant with the Blythe Police Department.
Valdez said detectives here think Rodriguez killed Smith and left for Blythe roughly 12 hours before Smith's body was found.
Their names were withheld until Monday so family members could be found and told of the deaths.
Smith originally was from Virginia, but had been living here for a short time before she was killed, Valdez said. Rodriguez also had been living here for a short time, Valdez added.
Rodriguez rented a motel room Saturday evening in Blythe and made calls to family members, Wade said.
Rodriguez gave no reason for his suicide and left no note, police here and in California said.
Wade said Rodriguez died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound.
His body was found behind the steering wheel of his late model Chevrolet Cavalier, parked in the driveway of the Palo Verde Irrigation District office in an industrial area in Blythe, Wade said.
Wade said he suspects Rodriguez shot himself some time around 2 a.m. Sunday based on a trace of calls made from Rodriguez' cellular phone and on the times they were made.
Before killing himself, Wade said, Rodriguez called family members in Washington state.
"He talked to family members Saturday evening by telephone, he just said ‘send the police to the apartment there in Tucson,' basically, ‘I'm sorry,'" Wade said.
"He made some reference to a body in the apartment there in Tucson," Wade said, explaining he did not know if Rodriguez said he had killed a woman there.
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/breaking/011005_woman_named.html
(reply to this comment)
| from Nancy
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 16:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
"May flights of angels carry you to your rest."
I am comforted in the thought that he is no longer in pain.
(reply to this comment)
| From Cultinvator
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 00:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
Not to be contradictory, but I wouldn't glorify this event with wings of angels. You might and I think it's your right to say what you like.
I think it's a fucked up situation, a bitter cycle of revenge, where he was in an unstable mode of thinking, and meeting someone so tied into the mess of his childhood was the most stupid thing in the world for this encounter to take place, a disaster waiting to happen, but my perception is a drop in the bucket.
There is no glory in death besides the end of suffering. If life sucks then you die, that's basically all there was to it. We don't know that there is any Ricky soul floating about.
He wanted it to end, whatever it was, we might never know completely, and he made it stop.
All I get from this situation is that life's reasons for existing and the satisfactions of making a life outside of that of our past never made it past the pain he felt, whether in a moment of passion, guilt or precise calculation, whatever reason there is for living, joy, satisfaction, meaning, all these things were not large enough in his life to keep him with us and he's gone, and like Jules said, nothing said really totally makes complete sense, it all seems so trite in spite of it all.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 15:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
It’s a quote from Shakespeare. I think the whole thing goes something like, “Good night sweet prince. May flights of angels carry you to your rest.” I read it written in an article after JFK, Jr.’s death. I thought it similar to Ricky’s death in that they both were born having so much expected of them and even referred to as princes, while having their young lives cut short. Now we will never know what either would have done with their lives.
It did occur to me that he may not believe in a heaven or hell. Yet, something about the quote seemed apropos beyond the reference to heaven. It is hard to find some sort of resolution in ones mind, even when dealing with the victims of religion, that does not involve some sort of eternal peace or rest. The human mind wants to believe there is something more, some reasoning, some purpose, some resolution, or at the very least, an end to human pain for those who have died. Some may consider that weakness, but the emotion is still so strong. In our compassion and empathy, we want those we cared for to have an end to their pain or receive some sort of final comfort. Those of us who believe it is some kind of heaven, or hope that it is for those we loved who pasted away, don’t mean to offend those who believe differently. It’s just the result of the emotions felt for we identified with, loved or felt compassion for.
It’s a tough situation, especially when it comes to other ex second generation people we know, because it feels like what little faith I have left has been tarnished or hijacked by the people with whom I place blame. I want to reach out to those people I know and care about or even know of because I feel like I can relate to them, but I certainly do not ever want to add to their suffering by bringing up a reference to God or faith which might trigger a bad experience or memory. It is just so hard to know how else to empathize and separate those deep emotions which are tied to what little faith and hope I still have. It’s so messy and emotional. I feel guilty even trying to explain it because this is not about me, but how else do we reach out and recognize the tremendous loss? I don’t know, but I feel like Ricky’s life is worth an attempt on my part, even if I screw it up and can’t find the right words.
There also seems to be something deeper, beyond the anger and urge to find a cause or place blame. I feel a profound sense of loss and pain. Ricky’s life, despite its painful experiences, memories or problems, had so much value and worth. I think that is true despite it all, even his last acts. The same is true for every one of us who share his common childhood. There is an inherent value to our lives, no matter how scarred we may be or how emotionally troubled we feel. I think that it is a tremendous tragedy that so many of us don’t truly understand that about ourselves. We were never taught it. We were taught just the opposite, that nothing good came from ourselves. What a destructive doctrine.
I think so many of us can relate and are distraught over Ricky’s death because we can identify with him in some manner. I know I can. I imagine the turmoil he must have felt. I imagine how alone he must have been. I remember times in my own life I felt the same. I remember the times I was brought to rage over what I saw as injustice. I remember the times I felt completely alone and as though there was nothing worth salvaging from my past. I think about that and wonder how much worse it must have been for him. I have no answers, just an intense sense of pain and loss.
Then I start to think about other people that could be out there. It scares me. I wonder about the child of a current Family leader who emailed me a year or so ago with some questions. I wonder if that person is okay. I wonder if there was something more I could have said to, in the very least, let them know I felt for them.
I never understood the purpose of the Safe Passage Foundation before because I thought no Family member’s kid would ever contact anyone on the “evil” Movingon.org for help, and I also thought that we each barely have enough resources to save ourselves and our own siblings, how would we ever be able to help someone else? Yet, now I see its relevance. There are so many of us out there who understand, who identify and who are distraught right now that we could, in the very least, be there next time someone else feels completely alone, like Ricky. Someone could let that next person know they are not alone.
I often contact a person I met here on this site when I feel most helpless. She supports me, and I try my best to support her. I would get on a plane in a moment’s notice to help her if she needed it. Yet, all we both often need is to just someone to pick up the phone and talk to. I also know that due to this site and people I was able to reconnect with here, I could always make a few calls to some people, who could in turn call a few others, who would help me if I needed it when push came to shove. There is a support network here of people I know, and even though I don’t use it much, knowing it is there is tremendous, especially when people in the “normal” world don’t seem to understand what the hell I’m talking about or experiencing.
There are amazing people here who have tremendous strength of character, and a lot of those people are pretty unbelievable when it comes to contributing their time to others they don’t even know. I wish there was a way to let other ex second generation members know, especially those who have little biological family outside the cult, like Ricky.
I’m not very helpful, in that I feel like I barely have my stuff together, and I grapple with lots of my own demons, as evidenced by my very strong emotions. Yet, I feel obligated to make myself available, given I have benefited myself from the support of others here. I’m not talking about some fuzzy support group. There are shrinks and 12 step programs for that, and I surely, for the first time it seems in my life, don’t propose to have life’s answers. I just think that no one understands what it is like to try to make a life for oneself in the world given our childhoods, like someone else who lived it. That understanding is a valuable commodity when tough times come. If there is something that can be done, especially as simple as being there for someone else, which might save the life of even one of us, then sign me up.
I, guess, I’m taking smaller aim at the world. I don’t hope to change or rectify what happened to us. There are those stronger than me fighting that war. It just seems like it should be feasible, given the resourcefulness of each of us, to at least mitigate the damage already done by helping to prevent more pain or loss of life to others like us, even if its just one person.
I can be contacted by email at cmadi2@yahoo.com If there is anything I can do, I will. If I can’t, I know some other people who might be able to. There are a lot of really smart people out there who know how to get things done and who care. Just knowing of them is valuable.
Sorry, this is so damn long. Nearly a year away from this site, and I still haven’t figured out how to be succinct.
I just wanted to ask one last question. Does anyone think this is a literal case of “killing the messenger?” And if so, do you wonder what the message was? Does anyone think this situation is analogous to when they sent Sara Davidito to talk to Merry Berg, only Merry refused to see her? Why do they send a messenger involved in the painful experiences the person had? Is that provocative, especially when it involves someone who went through so much? I have so many questions and thoughts and wonder what others think.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From ack
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 08:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
I't not likely that a bribe is what would have set him off, After all, he had been demanding money before.
maybe he was looking so fine that little old Sue just had to get with that one more time, you know, for old time's sake. And SNAP!
But again not likely.
Has anyone considered that perhaps he killed himself because of the guilt of becoming a murderer? Pent up rage leads to a crime of passion, next thing he knows he's gone too far, and a life behind bars is out of the question.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | from geo
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 15:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Who was angela smith?
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | From
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 07:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
What happened to the oh so strict rule of going "two by two"???
Zerby sent Angela/Sue there on her own, like a lamb to slaughter. She knew why Ricky (her son) and all of us are hurting and that we are angry and blame the sexual, physical and emotional abuse of our generation on her and her sick, twisted, controling methods.
Not only did she reject and demonize those she is responsible for hurting, including her son, she has made it law within TF that others MUST follow her example.
Sending one of his childhood abusers to try and "win him back" would be sure to make anyone in his position flip. The place she should have been in was jail not in his flat.
What a fucking great mother mamma Maria is!!! and this is one of the leaders trying to give lectures, guidence and rules to our parents, no fucking wonder our parents turned out shit.
Talk about EGOTISTICAL!! They reject their parents and society, then their own children for what?? A God who must be masterbated too, a God that needs our tears,a god that makes you abuse your children, a god that makes you obey everything a twisted pervert and a cold, heartless bitch
I'm sick to the stomach.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from Aaron
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 14:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
I lived in Tucson,Az for 3 1/2 years. My 1st place outside the cult.
I have to tell you guys how horribly deppressed I was. I was 19 years old and all the shit from my horrible childhood hit the fan. I was suffering from Major Depressive Disorder. An agonizing sense of timelessness and excruciatingly painfull aloness. \
I wanted very much to take my life and that of certain people that inflicted these pyschic wouds in me. But I would think of my mother and siblings and didn't want to hurt them. I was ignorant of the fact that I had a recognized medical condition that was extremely treabable!!
And am proud to say it has been treated and am a happy individual now with joy about my future :)
Strange thing about Ricky? I never knew him but I did know that Zerby's parents lived in Tucson and I actually looked them up in the phone book while living there for "kicks".
The desert is a hellish place to be while suffering from DEPPRESSION as am shure Ricky was. I had similiar thoughts as him of total mayhem and revenge. I am not supprised at all concerning the alleged murder/sucide that took place since I left the family to the same depressing town as he.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 14:15
(Agree/Disagree?)
So TF reckon that it was gods judgement on the sinners in SEA, esp Phuket, where there are child kidnappers and sellers of children into prostitution, phedophiles that roamed in those parts... So by the same reckoning why didn't the Tsunami wipe out Zerby and co for their belief, endorsement and practise of phedophilia?
Hypocrites!!!
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from Murgan
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 13:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
Um, not to disrupt of the flow of angry rhetoric about TF or the tragic loss of his life, but can I point something out?
He fucking murdered someone! How can you blame that on TF? Angela may have been in TF and maybe she's not perfect, but come on you people? He fucking killed her! So shut up about everything else. It's tragic, but if one more post goes up about this topic and dares to mention 'justice' you'd better acknowledge that simple fact: He killed someone first.
Angela. One of the sweetest people I had the privilege of knowing slightly during my time in TF. Maybe she had beliefs that don't coincide with yours, but screw that. She didn't deserve this. So shut up about justice unless you're going to talk about her as well and her justice as well. OK? Payback's a bitch? You bet it is, but who are you trying to get payback from, and why? Just wondering.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From Shaka
Monday, January 10, 2005, 17:15
(Agree/Disagree?)
Her death came after 30 years of devoted service to a bunch of insane criminals who inflicted horrific damage on countless lives. We don't need to talk about justice for her. She's already received it. If you are one of those who believes that TF is made up of good people who merely "have beliefs that don't coincide with ours", then you are not welcome here. (reply to this comment) |
| | From cassy
Monday, January 10, 2005, 14:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'd like to point out that Ricky knew her a long time and that it was not some random person he targeted. I don't agree with taking justice into our own hands, but you don't know what she was involved in during his childhood. Just because she was sweet to you doesn't mean anything. Wait until the facts come out before judging too quickly.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from redneckgirl
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 13:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
I've never written anything on this site. I don't get on much. I haven't really kept up with Family news and really have no interest in it all. Its something that I have been trying to put behind me, but when I heard about Ricky and the tragic story that has just unfolded I was shocked but more so I was angry. How many more people are we going to lose to suicide because of depression and not being able to function in life thanks to the family and its fucked up ways. They have destroyed so many peoples lives for thier own greedy, powerhungry, moneyhungry reasons without giving a good god damn about anyone else. The "Queens" own son. I wonder how she is going to explain this away. What the hell is wrong with them. It is so sad! I didn't know him except in all the stories but I know how he must of felt. Totally alone and scared. I'm sorry to those of you who did know him and hope we all can get though this. One day we will get our turn and let me tell y'all payback is a BITCH
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from Question
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 13:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
Does anybody know whether he left a note or taped message. Or file a complaint with the police/FBI of the list of abuse's he, Techi and Davida underwent at the hands of David Berg,Zerby, Peter, Alf and Sarah?
(reply to this comment)
| From Cultinvator
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 00:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
The police report in the article said 'no note'.
I agree with those who said that blame at this point is useless, they both are gone. Why is still in question... and I hope that's what these posts are all about.
It's depressing to think that those who grew up like us are just gone, I've experienced that with a really close friend a few years back and we want to know that their death, whatever caused it, doesn't happen again if we can help it. Because there is a lot worth living for in spite of anything that may have happened in our past.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from moon beam
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 12:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
Rest in peace Ricky. You will be remembered. Those who have tormented and abused your soul and body will not get away with it!!!
Though there may lie, the slain, the wounded, we will march on regardless, though with heavy heart, that the truth be known and justice rendered to the heartless.
You will be missed.
(reply to this comment)
| from Tucson news article
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 12:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
From The Tucson Citizen, Monday, January 10.
Woman found dead; may have been slain in home
A.J. FLICK
ajflick@tucsoncitizen.com
Tucson police, tipped off by California authorities, found a possible murder victim in her midtown apartment yesterday.
Police in Blythe, Calif., received a call about a man's suicide late Saturday or early yesterday, Tucson police spokesman Sgt. Carlos Valdez said.
"Some family members made a comment that the victim made a comment that he may have killed someone in Tucson," Valdez said.
Tucson police were told and went to the woman's apartment, in the 2500 block of North Los Altos Avenue, which is near North First Avenue and West Grant Road, around noon yesterday, Valdez said.
The woman was found dead, Valdez said.
Tucson police are not releasing details about the woman's identity or how she died while the case is being investigated, Valdez said.
The spokesman for Blythe police was not available to comment last night.
(reply to this comment)
| from Shaka
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 12:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
We can only hope that this finally draws some attention from the authorities to the Family and their brazen disregard for the law and human life. We all owe it to Ricky to see to it that he didn't die in vain.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 12:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
Leonard Cohen's
"Story of Isaac"
The door it opened slowly,
my father he came in,
I was nine years old.
And he stood so tall above me,
his blue eyes they were shining
and his voice was very cold.
He said, "I've had a vision
and you know I'm strong and holy,
I must do what I've been told."
So he started up the mountain,
I was running, he was walking,
and his axe was made of gold.
Well, the trees they got much smaller,
the lake a lady's mirror,
we stopped to drink some wine.
Then he threw the bottle over.
Broke a minute later
and he put his hand on mine.
Thought I saw an eagle
but it might have been a vulture,
I never could decide.
Then my father built an altar,
he looked once behind his shoulder,
he knew I would not hide.
You who build these altars now
to sacrifice these children,
you must not do it anymore.
A scheme is not a vision
and you never have been tempted
by a demon or a god.
You who stand above them now,
your hatchets blunt and bloody,
you were not there before,
when I lay upon a mountain
and my father's hand was trembling
with the beauty of the word.
And if you call me brother now,
forgive me if I inquire,
"Just according to whose plan?"
When it all comes down to dust
I will kill you if I must,
I will help you if I can.
When it all comes down to dust
I will help you if I must,
I will kill you if I can.
And mercy on our uniform,
man of peace or man of war,
the peacock spreads his fan.
(reply to this comment)
| from Blondie_B78
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 11:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
RIP Ricky....
(reply to this comment)
| from Vicky
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 10:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
I didn't know Ricky, and I fear my words will be empty in comparison to the expressions of grief of those of you who knew and loved him. But in a sense, of course, we all knew him intimately and he was a part of our lives in a very big way.
I am saddened beyond words.
When I heard the news I was instantly reminded of this poem that I love. I post it here as my tribute to Ricky.
Steal me.
Melt my gold centre.
I enter through your dreams,
where you are weak,
and where I'm clean of inhibition.
I'm killing this body, this prison of flesh,
this heart and this head that you loved
- put to rest,
But I'll see you in sleep,
when I'm perfect.
Anno Birkin, 1999
(reply to this comment)
| from Bella
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 09:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
Both shocking and sad! Rest in peace, Ricky.
(reply to this comment)
| from cassy
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 09:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm in shock. I just talked to him on the phone two days ago. We had a long conversation and it means so much to me that I was able to talk to him again. He was someone I admired so much for everything he went through. I can't find words to express how much it hurts.
Dear Ricky, may we fight for justice for you and all those who didn't have the strength to continue on this earth.
(reply to this comment)
| from Shaka
Monday, January 10, 2005 - 09:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
Rest in Peace, Ricky. You're a bigger loss than anyone will ever know.
(reply to this comment)
| From analytical
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 08:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
has anyone heard more details regarding these tragic events...?
i'm just curious to have a little more insight into the circumstances involved.
i knew met sue(angela) once.....i don't see how she could be threating, or cause of such an outburst of rage. i mean granted she may have done some fucked up things in the past but she was only doing what she truly believed was pure and "god's will".....she was just a "obedient servant" so to speak.
if anyone does know anymore details i would be very interested to hear them.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From jpross
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 20:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
how the hell are those sick, deranged idiots still allowed to walk to earth freely??? what can possible be done to end there reign once and for all??? please don't tell me those sick perverts still in charge are going to get away with all they've done and all the lives they have ruined. please tell me something can be done to bring them to justice. can we sue? can we press charges? can we start a fund that we can all contribute to to make sure they are put to justice? does anyone have ideas??? (reply to this comment) |
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