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Getting Support : Money
Take the Money and Run | from James Penn - Sunday, August 22, 2004
accessed 4350 times Hi to everyone – Hope you don’t mind me posting here.
I’d like to comment about the issue of Ricky taking money from his mother, but before I do, there’s something else that I need to say. To use an overworked metaphor, ex-members are (hopefully) on a journey of recovery from the effects of living in a highly abusive cult. My journey in the past few years, since I wrote my second article, has been characterized by two related epiphanies.
First of all, I’ve developed an understanding of the extent to which many of the second generation view the first generation as the enemy.
We are the ones who oppressed and abused you day in and day out. We are the ones who largely abdicated any sense of personal responsibility as we mindlessly followed the light. We are the ones who unquestioningly gave our time, energy, and money to build and maintain the system that oppressed and abused you. We are the ones who, because of our utterly insane life choices, effectively robbed many of you of your childhood and denied you so many opportunities in life. And we are the ones – not all of us, but many – who still refuse to admit the extent of our culpability, who are slow to validate your experiences, and who deny you the support you often need. No wonder many of you despise us. If I were you, I would too.
Secondly, and this is a result of regularly reading this site and dialoguing with a few people, I have become increasingly aware of the horrors that so many of you experienced in The Family. (Of course, even while in the group, I knew of quite a lot.) How can words even remotely do justice to the literal torture that we inflicted on so many of you? I read your stories and I am sickened. I can’t even imagine how you have survived and overcome so much. I say this knowing that many haven’t.
I used to think that somehow time would heal and that I could move away from all the horrors related to TF, but I can’t say that this has happened. If anything, as each year passes, I become more sensitized and consequently more appalled about The Family and the incredible harm and evil that I promoted for most of my adult life, especially during the 18 years that I was in World Services. I zealously defended and promoted the system that methodically terrorized your generation.
I can’t change the past, but I can acknowledge the atrocities many of you have endured and apologise to you for ever being a part of it. “Apologise” sounds so trite, so insufficient, so inadequate – and it is. I’m terribly terribly sorry for the part I played in inflicting harm on you. If there is one thing that I want members of your generation to know, it is how sorry I am for hurting you. I can never say this enough, and I can never express it as it should be expressed, but I hope you can understand, and I hope that in some infinitesimal way, it may have some sort of positive influence in some of your lives.
I’d like to change subjects now and comment about the issue of Ricky taking money from his mother when he left TF. From reading posts here, I gather it has been a bit of a controversy – some people censuring him for making that choice.
Zerby and Peter (Chris Smith) do pay off some people who leave the group, people who they perceive could do them harm if they started talking. I know a number of people who got paid off in one way or another. People like Ricky and people like me. People who they fear. Zerby and Smith don’t want this known, as it could become a precedent that would bleed the group dry. But they pay people when they have to.
When I finally decided to leave TF in 1998, I wrote an 18-page letter of resignation to Zerby and Smith explaining my reasons, all of which are outlined in my first article, No Regrets. In that letter I asked for and received severance pay, which amounted to about $17,000, paid out over the next year.
I asked for the money for several reasons. First of all, I needed it. I had worked for WS full-time for nearly 20 years. I knew that my transition into non-cult life was going to be long and painful.
Second, I deserved it. I had given Zerby and Smith the best years of my life – serving them personally. They owed me severance pay. Third, I had seen what they did to other cast-offs – giving them $1,000 or so and sending them on their way with a self-righteous “God bless you.” I was angry and determined to break the mould. I was not going to go quietly into the night.
I did not see the money as belonging to tithers or missionaries. My reasoning was that once Zerby and Smith took possession of any money, it became cult money to be spent on whatever they wanted. I figured that if they gave me money, it might result in one or two less GNs – no big loss.
Of course, there was an unspoken condition for receiving this money – don’t speak out against them, and don’t reveal that I am receiving money from them. They were deathly afraid of word getting out that I was being paid off, so we struck a deal whereby I would be a TSer, continue to edit Mo Letters for general publication, and receive a monthly paycheck. That way they could say that I had not left the Family but that I had become a TSer and was continuing my pubs work. A notice to this effect about my friends (who were also leaving) and I appeared in a Family publication.
I didn’t really mind the silence condition, as I just wanted to relocate with my friends and detox and figure out what I was going to do with my life. I wasn’t ready to do any talking. I just wanted to be left alone. So I moved and spent the next year doing some part-time pubs work, taking (what else) writing courses, and receiving monthly checks from WS.
While TF may say that they were just paying me for services rendered, the money was nothing less than hush money -- a pay-off to keep my big mouth shut. Think about it. I had blasted them in my letter of resignation and they then pay me full monthly support for a year as a TSer to edit the Words of David? No way. They had read my resignation letter and were afraid of not only what I knew, but of what I was willing to say.
After a year, I realised that it was time to break off all ties, so I wrote them telling them to stop sending the checks, as it was time to move on. Even then they wrote back, saying that I was doing great work (I was hardly doing anything) and it was sad I was leaving. I imagine that if I wanted to, I could have continued the arrangement for a few more years But I wanted to be completely out of their control and have the freedom to speak. A few months later I started my first article.
I know that some people may resent that I entered into a deal to take money – and I think that is understandable. I accept that because of my position in TF, I had the opportunity to leverage a deal that others could not. But all things considered, I don’t have any regrets. I did what I felt I had to do.
But my choices are not really the issue here. My point in telling all this is to highlight three points.
· Zerby and Smith do pay hush money to people they fear. The key word is fear. They’ve given big bucks to several people besides Ricky and I. But they’re very very concerned that Family members don’t find out about it. Of course, if it becomes public knowledge, as it did with Ricky, then Zerby does not hesitate to eat her young, as she did when she made the video demonizing him. She is a calculating, ruthless woman, utterly unscrupulous.
· Obviously I don’t have a problem with Ricky taking money. When I heard about it, I thought “Good for him. He deserves a helluva lot more than whatever she’s giving him.” Even with the money, I’m sure he has not had it easy.
· Everybody deserves money from the group. The more people that succeed in getting it, the more of a precedent it creates for others.
So my “take” on the money is to take it – take the money and run – and talk!
I admire so many of you for all you’ve accomplished, are accomplishing, and will yet accomplish. Your resiliency is amazing. I can only hope and pray for the best for each of you, because you sure deserve it.
Cheers! |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from tatz
Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 14:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
Guys, this is really fucked up... I mean, I lived 19 years of my life struggling along with my family to support these people??? It´s ridiculous!! I honestly worked my ass off taking care of a bunch of kids when I was only 13 and going out postering and trying to raise funds, instead of going to school like any normal kid my age is supposed to and really believing that at least all the sacrifice was for a good cause, but hell no!! And then one day you´re so fed up of working and working and never having one fuckin cent and doing stuff you truly hate and decide to leave just to realize you have nothing... no education, no money, nothing! I really tried putting all of that behind me when I left, you know trying not to be bitter about a lot of stuff and simply move on, and still trying to believe that at least some of the sacrifice was worth it, but now... that is very far from the truth.
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| | | | from frmrjoyish
Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 11:16
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Of course the money was hush money! Who else actually got paid for their slave labor? I know I sure as hell didn't!
(reply to this comment)
| from Phoenixkidd
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 16:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
I have absolutely no envy or qualms with Ricky taking money from his Mom to make his initial start in normal society. I have several reasons for this:
A. it's his biological mother, she owes it to him for all his service he has rendered her and the cult throughout his years in TF.
B. As one starts for living in normal society they realize they have been dealt a bad deal if they were raised in TF, all the psychological and religious babel that TF had been cramming down their throats amounts to financially nothing. We have to realize that in Society not everything is "fair" their are crooks and cons everywhere and Mrs. Zerby is no exception
C. Whatever amount this money was that was handed to him will be much less than whatever one will make in the States if they work hard. Eventually they will have paid much more in Interest on Credit Cards, spending on vacations, paying in tuition or insurance, things that many young folks have their parents pay for while in school.
I remember at the end of 1998 I made the decision to leave, I didn't care if I worked at Burger King, and made minimum wage I just wanted to leave. I convinced the shepherd to give me a one way ticket to Japan to visit my folks I didn't even have enough to come. My Dad gave money from one night of night singing equivalent to $350.00 and I worked illegally in Japan for the next 3 months to get enough money to come to the States I arrived with $3000.00 to begin my new life and have payed my entire way.
James Penn, unlike many Members who have left was lucky enough to have worked closely to the leadership enough to convince them to give them money. I remember this one 19yr old who joined and gave everything away,"Forsaking All" as I remember it, left 2 months later and they wouldn't give him anything back. This happened countless of times to various people. I can personally attest to 3 times of this happening, so therefore I have absolutely no problem with people trying to leave, "Robbing the System" or taking money from their parents if they can get their hands on it. They owe it to us for years of service with ill equipped tools. I seriously did not own any decent clothes when I left!
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| from neez
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 16:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
Any money taken away from the Zerb is a good thing. But how you chose to spend that blood money was entirely up to you.
30 fucken grand? & we wonder if WS isnt sitting on a fat swiss account.
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| | | |  From neez
Thursday, August 26, 2004, 07:17
 (Agree/Disagree?)
"But how you chose to spend that blood money was entirely up to you"
That wasn't an opinion, it was just a fact. It was entirely up to him how he spent that money, & he apparently spent it all on himself. So if you feel he spent it the wrong way then thats your opinion.
I personally wont lose much sleep over this & I originaly wasn't going to say anything like 'you should have given me the money' but just to clarify... You really should have given me the money.(reply to this comment) |
| | from GoldenMic
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 15:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
Your letters were among the first writings I had ever seen that clearly outlined the horrors while also accepting some responsibility. They really helped. This new comment was also meaningful to me, suggesting the beginning of a path to healing self and others.
I am from another cult, Isot, that has disgustingly similar parallels to COG, except that it is smaller. I was one of the very first "children", so I am in the position of having had NO choice about the sick, abusive, and exploitive environment of my youth, but I also lived there long enough (25 years) to have partially joined in the neglect and exploitation of others. I am thankful I did not join in any physical or sexual abuse (as a "golden boy" I had SOME right to choose how I would treat others), but I did ignore and minimize the consistent oppression and psychological terrorism that was going on around me.
In truth, I didn't actually have much perspective to understand that there was any other reality, but in my heart, I still believe I should have known better.
However, when I saw that my own little children were going to be expected to lap up abuse and be what the prophet wanted, my wife and I left. I left with about $1,000 but thank God my Dad, who had never been a part of the cult, did help me out. (Isn't it sick how we all reached out to the same relatives we had ignored, and for many of us it is those once-patronized relatives' unfailing love that saved us?). I also had a college education, largely because my Dad had paid for it and because my cult wanted some "trophy" children to use as examples of how good life was in the cult. This makes me feel guilty, and I simply cannot bear the endless horror I feel that the caste system was as present in the leaving and after-cult surviving as it was in the cult itself.
I guess thats why I continue to feel a responsibility to put my money where my mouth is, steadily donating time, money, and significant focus from my life on the plight of those who were more abused than I. While I always try to respect the right of ALL survivors to move on with their lives, putting all the pain out of their minds for as long as possible, I believe my own atonement must always include a willingness to feel the horror of what continues to happen at the cult, and to be willing to validate and listen respectfully each time a former member needs to pour out their feelings.
To me, thats kind of what you are doing right here, with this thread, allowing others to react and respond, without becoming defensive, and somehow doing some small part of what the so-called "Godly" leaders will never have the decency to do, bearing witness to the pain.
Thanks. Mike Martella.
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| from Wolf
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 13:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
As you acknowledged, your apology is trite. You can do something to give it meaning, however. You can start investing a portion of your time or salary (or both) into putting Zerby and Kelly behind bars. Nothing can undo your past criminal compliance, but you may be able to prevent the same people from continuing their criminal abuse.
You seem like a bright person. You have already used your intelligence against Z&K by exposing some of their evil. If you are sincere about the above apology you can go further and bring them to their end.
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| from Satan the Scientist
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 13:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
Asking forgiveness does seem a bit hollow, as you say, and the devil is in the details. You did cleverly manage to profit from years of leadership service in an organization that raped & beat its children, failed to properly educate them, economically exploited them, and continues to deny the truth of what was done.
A just entitlement to $17K in severence pay depends in large measure on the logic of your rationale, which I frankly find wanting. Here's the gist of your thinking error: the money you took has no connection to the exploitation & suffering of children because...? It was liberated from the control of Zerby, Smith & Co. for a better purpose than it might otherwise have been. Sounds a little dicey to me. Have you thought about running that one past an ethics professor?
Better yet, have you evolved far enough beyond the profound state of ignorance you promoted in the name of your nasty little tribal god to consider making restitution? If you sent $300 a month to Safe Passage Foundation for the next five years, you might pay back your ill-gotten gains with interest and actually convince someone who gives a rat's ass that you love the idea of a just God at much as you love yourself.
(reply to this comment)
| from Lauren
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
I wanted to add my own two cents to the comments already expressed below.
In no way am I trying to defend or exculpate the author of this article, but it does seem to me that he had nothing to gain and everything to lose by saying what he did.
From everything James Penn has written, I have never gotten the impression that he is stupid – and someone would have to be pretty stupid as a first generation adult to talk about getting money from the group – quoting actual numbers -- and not expect some serious flak about it – especially when it is deliberately posted on a second generation website, knowing that we as the second generation got and continue to get nothing. Zip. Nada.
In that line of reasoning, I would have to assume that this article was posted knowing full well the self-inflicting damage it would cause, and that the author risked a backfire in order to make a very salient point.
Paying people to keep quiet is nothing new to this organization. They gave Watchman about $5,000. Eman Artist was on their payroll even into the late 90’s (perhaps he still is). There are others, I’m sure.
This, I believe, is the crux of the matter, and what infuriates me the most: Not necessarily that they pay out – boy what nearly 20 grand would’ve done for me -- but that their criterion is totally self-serving. To hell with “Rewards to the Deserving” or “God Cares for His Own”, it’s all about self-preservation and image, let the children be damned.
I feel rage. I feel frustration and I’m angry as hell. Not necessarily towards the people who were lucky enough to have something to hold over the group in order to get money, but towards the group leaders who are willing to pay silence money to people they are afraid of and who won’t even recognize the validity of the difficulties we, their children, face when we exit their world and enter the real one.
We all know they have the money, although they continue to cry poverty. This is just one more nail in their coffin that proves that they do pay out, that they have the means to pay out, but that they callously refuse to lift a finger to the ones that matter most, their children.
(reply to this comment)
| From frmrjoyish
Wednesday, August 25, 2004, 11:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
In a way I agree with you but I also feel that an apology without action to correct the wrong or make restitution to those harmed is meaningless. No matter how sincere James's apology is, it doesnt do a damn thing to repay what we went through at the hands of the cult that he helped to lead. The person who will likely benefit most from his apology is James himself by allowing him to ease his conscience. That's great and I'm glad he's "seen the light" but, as usual, it still leaves the majority of SGA's with nothing but words. I like the idea of someone above to give X amount a month to the SPF or any other organization helping the victims that his decades of involvement in a perverse cult helped to create. What was that old saying that was drilled into us as kids? Something like "Actions speak louder than words"! (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Eman Artist is a HUGE CHILD MOLESTER
Wednesday, August 25, 2004, 04:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
He molested at least two preteen girls I knew while at the HCS. Not once or twice but on a weekly basis for months. One of the girls had very rich parents who gave their money to the cult. The young child was convinced by the tops Josiah, Marianne, etc...that it would be in the best interest of God, Jesus, THE FAMILY if her parents did not find out about the incident. I don't know what happened to him after that. I know he was not kicked out of the group. I wonder if that was when they started paying him off? (reply to this comment) |
| | From porceleindoll
Wednesday, August 25, 2004, 19:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
The girl you're speaking of was actually only molested once (not to minimize the deed, but to clarify the record), and they were her grandparents, not parents. She talked about it to me (unless she hadn't told me the whole story), but after that initial talk, the case was taken out of my hands, so I don't know how it was handled with her grandparents and leadership.
The other girl I know of was a teen, and it was pretty regular. Eman was a preyer of innocents.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Fury
Tuesday, August 24, 2004, 11:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
I am not so sure I personally consider those people who have something to hold over the group that get's the group's attention fortunate, at least Karma-wise. I realize you said lucky, maybe there is luck there, but in all of my violated soul and raped body I still do not envy the Karmic position of one who was an adult conspirator and who the group is scared of.
The thing is so many of us who were their child victims actually have so much to hold over the group, so many atrocities, but this does not get the group's attention and I don't think it will without legal action. In our case, instead of paying us not to speak out they denied, slandered, libeled and maligned us when we told of their deeds.
"James Penn" says the group pays those they are afraid of. I think the group has been very sloppy and stupid to not be afraid, very afraid, of their abused children. We grew up, contrary to plan.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from banal_commentator
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 08:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
To James Penn:
You wrote a letter of resignation to them blasting them for their beliefs/crimes and obviously disagreeing with their beliefs/cririmes, and yet you accepted a salary from them while you still continued to help them perpatrate their beliefs/crimes. If you were so appaled by them, why would you continue to help them in any way??? Even if it was only a year, even if you had contempt for them?
(reply to this comment)
| from 19 yr old Single Mother
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 07:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
I had to pay for my own gas when I left the cult. That left me with 5 dollars in my pocket. I gave my entire childhood to the group on the streets making money to send to WS. For every day I spent on the streets my reward was a occasional vending machine drink. When I was sixteen I had saved almost $2000 by saving every penny I got from my Grandparents and from occasional rewards for my great money making abilities. The HER fund came out and I turned my money in. Shortly after that I got "knocked" up and asked to leave. Like I said, I paid for the gas...
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| | | | from Shackled
Monday, August 23, 2004 - 22:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
While reading your article I had mixed feelings runnin through me. Before starting off I'd like 2 say that I don't mean any disrespect but you hit a very sensitive topic and I'm only being candid. Perhaps if I knew you in person I'd understand alot better.
One is good for you for gettin something out of them, just like Ricky. Second, you don't deserve it because you joined the cult on your own. You weren't forced into it and given no education. And if you lacked an education that would be your fault. Third, I believe your apology is sincere and you truly are sorry for being a defender of the abusers. However, you still were 1 of them and for you 2 even mention that you and other FGA's received money to keep quiet just pisses me off. We, SGA's and younger, left with nothing. When I say nothing I really mean nothing. No material possessions, no love, no education to specialize in a desired field or the knowledge to get it and to top it off we left feeling hated and discarded. But you they wanted to keep paying to be quiet. $17000, alot of us could really use that kind of money and you think wasting time in a cult that you joined on your own free will deserves it. If we got nothing I don't see how you can feel justified in taking it until you've done what you could to get justice for us. Maybe you have and I'm not aware of all the details.
You said, "I did not see the money as belonging to tithers or missionaries. My reasoning was that once Zerby and Smith took possession of any money, it became cult money to be spent on whatever they wanted. I figured that if they gave me money, it might result in one or two less GNs – no big loss."
This mindset sounds very familiar to those lazy ass bums who live in WS. Taking money, more then they need, from those on the field slaving away everyday without daily necessities.
At the moment I'm financially strained and alot of other things don't look great. So although I'm fine with Ricky receiving money, actually I'm glad he received money even if none of us ever receive anything, I'm not happy with what you got. I could be wrong but because I am offended by this I feel like you got what you wanted in TF and then left and still got something out of it. We were betrayed since birth, got nothing but causes for continual pain and were kicked out. Since day 1 we have not received what human beings deserves. You played apart in that.
(reply to this comment)
| From Baxter
Tuesday, August 24, 2004, 01:29
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Anybody who willingly gives money to TF is being robbed; Anybody who in any way gives their time and effort to TF for any given duration is also being robbed. What difference does it make if that money goes to WS or an ex-WS individual who has to blackmail Zerby et al for it?
Furthermore, we all do things we regret, and some of those things may have dire implications. Most of the people in the Family joined because they believed in what they were doing: we can label this stupidity, but that's beside the point. The exploitation that James Penn received at the hands of TF may not be of the same degree as those of the second generation, being that his was by choice, albeit possibly greatly deluded; but it was still exploitation. The Family owes every one of us who did sincerely believe in the cause they force-fed us, whether by choice or by involuntary indoctrination. I don't personally begrudge someone else for manageing to get TF to pay up. It would be great if we all could, but as far as I'm concerned, anything that takes money out of the Family's coffers nad puts it ANYWHERE else is a good thing.
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| | | | | | | | | | | From Mixza
Wednesday, August 25, 2004, 22:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
Im sorry if i sounded intellectual to you...it was cerrtianly a misunderstanding on your part.
You did say "you're looking at it from the wrong angle": i was simply pointing out that there is no RIGHT angle, thus there can be no WRONG one. The logic is simple and hardly sounds intellectual to me. But perhaps you are right and im just being an asshole...:p(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Mixza
Wednesday, August 25, 2004, 23:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
ahhmmm...no, i still dont see the right angle, sorry mate.
All i can see is two opinions, one saying "Penn dosnt deserve the money", and the other saying "who cares, anyone deserves it more than Zerby & Co."
It is painfully obvious that for Baxter to agree with you he would have to look from your angle, but is still dosent make your angle right...
My Personal angle is "good job! take all you can from the cult, screw the system before it screws you" Peolpe dont always get what they deserve or deserve what they get, loosers wine about it and winners just take it, regardless of whether its deserved or not...
p.s. if you look at it from my angle you will certianly agree that i am right.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Shackled
Thursday, August 26, 2004, 04:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
You just proved my point. There's my opinion and his. I didn't say his opinion is wrong. He was replying to my opinion and I was trying to get him to see where I was comin from. He doesn't have to agree. If he had posted his opinion under the article it be another case.
You're sayin I'm a "looser" because I'm pissed at TF for ruining my childhood and a chance of a life I'd choose? So if Zerby, Peter or any top abuser decided they had enough with the cult and genuinely apologized and got money from the cult you'd congratulate them?
If that is your angle I definitely disagree.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Shackled
Friday, August 27, 2004, 06:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
This is what I said,
"I get what you're sayin Baxter. But you're lookin at it from the wrong angle."
I was tellin him that he didn't understand my point of view, my angle. You said there is no right or wrong angle. I already made it clear that it isn't about the right or wrong opinion but how I felt about it. I haven't agreed with you but since you continually misread me I doubt you'll ever understand what I'm saying.
You said: "BTW, i hardly think that Penn qualifies as a top abuser"
He defended them in court. One could say he was like their lawyer. A lawyer for top abusers. If a lawyer defended a known child abuser in society would you consider him an ok guy? You sure seem to. And I'd reconsider bringing my parents into this. Sure it's easy to insult like that over the net but it's awfully lame.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Mixza
Friday, August 27, 2004, 18:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
OKOK...
i conceed...no point arguing about wording (what are we anyway, lawyers!!?)...i understand what you mean, i was just picking on your wording to be an asshole...haha...have a sence of humer about it...
But now we seem to have opened a new dicussion for debate...when it comes down to pointing a finger, WHO'S FAULT IS IT THAT WE WERE BORN AND RASIED IN AN ABUSIVE CULT??
In my opinion, when is comes down to it, it was our parents who let us down. THEY brought us into it all, they are ones who turned a blind eye to the abuse (or god forbid, engaged in it?!).
Our parents CHOSE to stay in the group, they CHOSE the cult over us, they CHOSE to ingnor our suffering...at any time they could have left, OR AT LEAST TRIED HARDER TO PROTECT US FROM OUR ABSERS!
So wake up and smell the roses mate, until you are of age, YOUR PARENTS are ultimatly responsible for your well being and protection. If you were abused, your parents are ultimatly responcable for not taking [legal] action/steps to protect/defend or hold the person(s) responsable to account.
P.s....not trying to insult you mate, i'm sure that i would be happy to have the same discussion with you in person...we're all adults here (right?)(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Mixza
Sunday, August 29, 2004, 17:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
hey, i apologize, your right about being an asshole somewhere else...of course Zerb Co. Ltd. is to blame, but so are our parents for following blindly...
I admit that i probably didnt go through what you did and it is insensitive of me to make light of what certainly is a painful subject for many of us...
and yes, picking on spelling errors is just childish...
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From
Friday, August 27, 2004, 08:17
(Agree/Disagree?)
Actually, a lawyer is not even allowed to go lie wholesale to the court. Alawyer can zealously represent his client but there are ethical limits and rules a lawyer must follow to keep his license. Perjury is not within those limits. And James Penn was not licensed to, or trained in, what could be ethically done to give TF a vigorous defense, so he was not acting in a capacity as a lawyer. He was just some guy they picked to go and tell the court falsehoods.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Mixza
Friday, August 27, 2004, 19:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
nice one, here is a pointer, alot = a lot, i.e. two words, not one.
Also, anonymity is not synonymous with cowardice. So whilst I am certainly posting anonymously, this does not inherently render me a coward.
Thus your statement is erroneous (a fallacy).
Perhaps if you were to substitute "Another anonymous coward" for "Another anonymous person, whom I believe to be a coward", your inference may be valid.
You see, you would have to know me personally in order to know that I am, in fact, a coward, then again, if you did know me, I would cease to be anonymous...ahh, circular reasoning...I love it...
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Shackled
Sunday, August 29, 2004, 00:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
Anonymity may not be synonymous with cowardice but leaving your name blank out of fear of what reply you'll get is cowardly.
And the spelling mistake. You gottabe kiddin right. Correcting mine when you've been makin rudimentary ones all along. I was going to correct them but I found that sort of thing to be lame. So who's the real loser.(Notice the spelling)(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Vicky
Monday, August 30, 2004, 12:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
I don't care if you want to correct spelling and grammar mistakes, I notice them too. I just think it's petty to do so as a way of putting someone down in an effort to win an argument. That being said, misspelling 'a lot' is just about the most irritating error ever and seems to be a curious familyism of sorts among ex-members, so I can't help but agree with you that it should be pointed out when it occurs.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Baxter
Wednesday, August 25, 2004, 08:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
I don't really see the money that he took from them as really having that much of a connection to what was stolen from us. I accept that it was money extracted from our toil, but the monetary gain is, as far as I can see, a side-effect, not the central crime. I don't care what they got out of us; what I care about is what we were deprived of. That's what I'm angry about. The world must inevitably measure loss in monetary terms, but the debt is much more far reaching than whatever material resources they managed to squeeze out of us.
I do not feel that by taking money from the Zerby Piggybank that Penn has maligned us in any way. Even if money was the motivating factor behind TFs enforced slavery of us and our siblings, his taking a marginal bit of it does not make me feel slighted by his actions. He effectively stole money from people who stole it from us.I mean, it's only money, man. No matter how much money it is, it won't heal the pain, no amount of money can. But if it buys even a little discomfort for those fucking chickenhawks, then yippey-kayay, it's money well-spent.
Maybe you're right about the moral justification issue. What I don't get is why he feels he needs moral justification. He even called his article 'Take the Money and Run'. Take the money and run, James. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from Overcome by Rage
Monday, August 23, 2004 - 20:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
I see your and Ricky's taking money as very different things.
In Ricky's case, I feel she was his parent, and he never chose to join the group any more than the rest of us SGs. He was objectified as a child for politics, and even subjected to vile publication of photographs and narration of the sexual abuse inflicted on him.
While I spit on "Maria" and her minions for the treatment given us peons who were never considered persons to fear, if persons at all, Ricky merely got some of what all of us SGs deserve. In fact, if we were to seek what we deserve adversarially, our damages would be measured in the millions. He should have received that, and more, but so should the rest of us SGs.
I have to tell you how I feel when you start apologizing (thanks for that to be sure), but then go on blithely to tell of getting your blood money. I feel you should apologize, not to WS (of which you were, let us remember, a part) but to us SGs for taking the money.
Do you realize that money was earned by an empire built on the blood, sweat and tears and flesh, including the privates and the brain matter, of children?
I do not criticize Ricky for taking money, especially since he seems not to be up for sale. I even think that some of us growing up "missionaries" (i.e., beggars) on the streets developed resourcefulness in a way I am not sure he got a chance to and we could deploy that to get by, however desperate our situations. But you...all I can say is my blood is boiling.
I, like others, escaped with nothing and made it without blood money. We made it on not on blood money but on our blood, handed over by the pintful, and our flesh, given by the pound, as we survived the best we could and then were maligned by our very abusers for the circumstances some of us fell into for lack of options. Do you realize what some of us had to do to survive? Do you realize what even a fraction of the money you got could have spared our already battered selves from?
I hope you realize that there is much unatoned for and that the Furies of children's spirits are gathering in an inexorable tornado.
One SG said on this site that he considered his departure at about 30 and after gaining experience in one of their corporate fronts (obviously not his words) as leaving The Family "on his own terms." Well, I don't. Leaving The Family in the middle of the night with the clothes on my back as a teenager, that is what I consider leaving The Family on my own terms. We are obviously two very different people with very different values. And then dealing with the only cards proffered to me but managing to survive. I am fircely proud of it. Meanwhile it seems my abusers think I have something to hide??? I am proud that I made it with not a penny owed to them and if I get a penny from them it will be ordered by a judge in spite of them and not a transaction in which I was their counterparty. NEVER their counterparty! All the normal people I know, the "systemites" who know my story, think I am one hell of a courageous person.
Then to help us along, in your very influential article, you characterized those of us who did not cooperate in the cover-up as "the lunatic fringe."
A big Fuck you going out to you here. I have to say you are somebody who inspires in me simultaneous admiration and scorn. Again, in case you missed it, FUCK YOU!!!!!! Goodnight.
(reply to this comment)
| From Vicky
Tuesday, August 24, 2004, 02:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well put and I totally understand the way you feel. I do wish you had put your name to this, only so that my admiration could be directed toward someone in particular!
I am so completely in awe of those of you who left in the manner you describe above. I think I am starting to appreciate the courage you showed more now that certain things are happening in my life which will result in my having to 'grow up' a bit and stand on my own more, which I have never had to do before. I want so badly to be strong enough to cope, but in truth I think there are going to be difficult times ahead for me. I can only imagine what it must have been like to have been so completely alone in the world, and forsaken by those who should have loved and supported you. For your strength and determination I wholeheartedly salute each of you.
I was already married when I left, and we had relatives (FM) that we could stay with while we got things together a bit. So at least we had each other for support and we didn't have to struggle with the basics of money, a place to stay, etc. Of course the psychological damage is there for anyone who leaves and I have had my share of anguish in that aspect, but as far as just surviving I have always had it rather good, I guess. I was such a family apologist, as some might put it, when I first started posting here, and if I have ever belittled the things the first wave of 'leavers' experienced and the struggles you coped so admirably with, I want to apologise here and say that you all are such an inspiration to me.(reply to this comment) |
| | from steam
Monday, August 23, 2004 - 19:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
I must say the apology part was exactly the kind of apology WS should be giving. I think if I ever hear a family member say "WS has apologised" again I will ask them to read this and tell me if they have apologised like that. As far as the money, get what you can I guess. Although I must say in the physical sense Ricky and people like James Penn got a much better deal than the rest of us while in the family (anyone remember a "LWG" where he is offered a new electric motorbike?) I was doing awesome not to eat the same meal ten times in a row, and to get my clothes handed only through one or two people before reaching me. Under one year old was really new. However I must admit, I would never want to change places in upbringing. Everything that ever happened was published for the whole world and he had enormous additional pressure. So although I have some mixed feelings on the issue, overall I mainly feel Ricky had a worse deal then many of us certainly including me.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From clark
Thursday, August 26, 2004, 12:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wait a minute, "Ricky had it worse that most of us" . I DISAGREE. while I'm sure he has had his share of bull crap, I wonder how many days as a child he ponded the pavment to pay the rent or wore sneakers that were handed down from his 8 older brothers and sisters and provisioned dinner into the wee hours of the night while starving after canning in 100 degree weather all day.
Being raised in a
(reply to this comment) |
| | From clark
Thursday, August 26, 2004, 12:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wait a minute, "Ricky had it worse that most of us" . I DISAGREE. while I'm sure he has had his share of bull crap, I wonder how many days as a child he ponded the pavment to pay the rent or wore sneakers that were handed down from his 8 older brothers and sisters and provisioned dinner into the wee hours of the night while starving after canning in 100 degree weather all day.
Being raised in
(reply to this comment) |
| | From clark
Thursday, August 26, 2004, 12:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wait a minute, "Ricky had it worse that most of us" . I DISAGREE. while I'm sure he has had his share of bull crap, I wonder how many days as a child he ponded the pavment to pay the rent or wore sneakers that were handed down from his 8 older brothers and sisters and provisioned dinner into the wee hours of the night while starving after canning in 100 degree weather all day.
Being raised
(reply to this comment) |
| | From clark
Thursday, August 26, 2004, 12:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wait a minute, "Ricky had it worse that most of us" . I DISAGREE. while I'm sure he has had his share of bull crap, I wonder how many days as a child he ponded the pavment to pay the rent or wore sneakers that were handed down from his 8 older brothers and sisters and provisioned dinner into the wee hours of the night while starving after canning in 100 degree weather all day.
Being
(reply to this comment) |
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